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Author Topic: Fodder for Zenki - Trashy Ham Transmitters Rated  (Read 6674 times)
KD8MJR
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Posts: 2361




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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 06:59:53 PM »

Ah it's always good for Elecraft sales when someone insults every other radio owner in order to make a point.  Personally even if those numbers are true I have never noticed this kind of splattering from any particular radio. That being the case I consider all the other factors in my buying decision and when those are factored in the K3 sinks way down on the scale.
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K4PIH
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Posts: 23




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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2014, 07:45:23 AM »

Wah Wah Wah. Did you communicate? Did people return your call? I cannot remember anyone saying to me "hey, just looked at your signal on my 5000C super duper waterfall O'scope-a-meter deluxe, and your signal has some splatter!"

You want spatter, just wait till I power up the old Swan!
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 02:06:58 AM »

Yes it's pretty much getting to the point of diminishing returns.
Numbers this close just don't translate into any major real world difference.
Even the best on that list will drop to the bottom if you don't have your settings just right.
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K1ZJH
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Posts: 1010




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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 10:12:43 AM »

There seems to be a disconnect between what the K9YC paper says and what some of the conclusions on this thread are. The K9YC test shows transmitter phase noise. The comments here are mostly about IMD. These two things have nothing to do with one another.


Your post makes at least the third time that was noted. Folks read what they want to read.

Multi-station contesters are very concerned about phase noise wiping out adjacent bands--some transmitters are that bad.
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W3RSW
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Posts: 127




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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 04:28:50 PM »

The report several times also mentions IM as part of the noise.

Quote
Raw Data -- Spectra With CW Keying – Clicks + IMD + Phase Noise
And,
Quote
ts From Electronic Data: Post-processing of the raw data (Figs 3-5) provides far better resolution, and clearly shows the contribution of phase noise and keying waveshape. Averaging essentially makes the random component of the phase noise disappear. Differences between the rigs remain about the same.
For CW, these spectral plots tell the complete story for what is happening close to the carrier, because they include the effects of keying transients, IMD and phase noise. Because the spectral distribution of pink noise band limited to 100 Hz to 5 kHz closely approximates the spectrum of speech, a comparable, but wider, plot for SSB modulated by that test signal would provide a similar result for SSB.

iPad truncation of copy. Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:31:47 PM by W3RSW » Logged
K9IUQ
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Posts: 1832




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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2014, 05:56:12 PM »

Multi-station contesters are very concerned about phase noise wiping out adjacent bands--some transmitters are that bad.

This is one reason why the Elecraft K-3's are so popular with serious multi-station Contesters and Dxexpeditions.

Disclosure: I do not own any Elecraft and am not particularly attracted to them or the K-3 Fanboys.

Stan K9IUQ
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2014, 11:19:42 AM »

Yes but let's face facts the main reason they use Elecraft is because Elecraft is right now one of the big sponsors for a lot of dxpeditions.
Several years ago when Icom was doing a lot of sponsoring everyone was using Icoms.
SteppIR is also a big sponsor right now and everyone uses their antennas.

Bottom line, most expeditions will use whatever equipment they can get to use for free and therefore it's not going to be a good benchmark indicator.
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K2GWK
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2014, 11:19:14 AM »

Yes but let's face facts the main reason they use Elecraft is because Elecraft is right now one of the big sponsors for a lot of dxpeditions.
Several years ago when Icom was doing a lot of sponsoring everyone was using Icoms.
SteppIR is also a big sponsor right now and everyone uses their antennas.

Bottom line, most expeditions will use whatever equipment they can get to use for free and therefore it's not going to be a good benchmark indicator.

This is one reason why the Elecraft K-3's are so popular with serious multi-station Contesters and Dxexpeditions.

Disclosure: I do not own any Elecraft and am not particularly attracted to them or the K-3 Fanboys.

Stan K9IUQ

I have a K3 but I am not a fanboy because I could give a rat's ass less what people think and I also have a FTDX-3000 as a backup rig and a Kenwood TS-2000 i use to work the SSB birds. I will never own another Icom though. I have nothing against the rigs, Icom screwed me one time on a warranty issue and I swore never to buy another Icom. Just for shitz and giggles, I am curious what don't you guys like about the K3.
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KD8MJR
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Posts: 2361




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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2014, 08:00:24 PM »

I am curious what don't you guys like about the K3.

Please lets not go there again Wink  A simple eham search will bring up some huge posts.

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SWL2002
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Posts: 292




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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2014, 04:23:18 AM »

Yes but let's face facts the main reason they use Elecraft is because Elecraft is right now one of the big sponsors for a lot of dxpeditions.
Several years ago when Icom was doing a lot of sponsoring everyone was using Icoms.
SteppIR is also a big sponsor right now and everyone uses their antennas.

Bottom line, most expeditions will use whatever equipment they can get to use for free and therefore it's not going to be a good benchmark indicator.

This is one reason why the Elecraft K-3's are so popular with serious multi-station Contesters and Dxexpeditions.

Disclosure: I do not own any Elecraft and am not particularly attracted to them or the K-3 Fanboys.

Stan K9IUQ

I have a K3 but I am not a fanboy because I could give a rat's ass less what people think and I also have a FTDX-3000 as a backup rig and a Kenwood TS-2000 i use to work the SSB birds. I will never own another Icom though. I have nothing against the rigs, Icom screwed me one time on a warranty issue and I swore never to buy another Icom. Just for shitz and giggles, I am curious what don't you guys like about the K3.

If you don't give a rat's ass then why are you so worked up when someone says something negative about a radio you own?  Maybe you should consider that you are a bit of a K3 fanboy?

For me it is partially the fanboy culture surrounding all of Elecraft's products as well as the poor ergonomics and harsh audio of the K3.  The front panel of the K3 looks cheap (like some of the Ten Tecs) and the knobs/buttons do not have a quality feel to them.  The audio on many K3s sounds bad on SSB. 

The accessories for all their radios are a little too costly and Elecraft tends to bury the true cost of a particular model in all of the options.
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W1JKA
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2014, 11:01:04 AM »

  I fit in here some where as I'm an Elecraft K1 fan boy but have to admit to the lack of all round ruggedness and cheap wobbly feel of it's VFO knob and buttons compared to my other favorite fan boy rigs the MFJ 90 series which are not only ruggedly built but have solid operating controls.
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NR9R
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Posts: 152




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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 12:38:28 PM »

Here is a plot I made:


I like Yaesu radios because I am partial to the sound of their receivers and their ergonomics are well thought out for DXing while working split.  I also like a decent transmitter and that's why I made the above plot.  Because I have an interest in tinkering with VHF transverters without ruining the band for my neighbors, phase noise is important to me.  After making the comparison the FTDX-5000 and FTDX-3000 were eliminated as choices (although I did actually own both until recently).  Interestingly the FTDX-1200 stands out as the most attractive option in the Yaesu line-up regarding transmitter phase noise.

I'd like to add that ARRL tested an FTDX-5000D, which has a 40 MHz LO.  The FTDX-5000MP with the 10 MHz LO/OCXO may have better transmitter phase noise performance but nobody has tested one that I'm aware of (someone please get an MP tested).

A big issue that I always like to raise in the radio comparisons found on the web (both ranking transmitter and receiver performance) is that they are a single test sample.  If I recall, ARRL publishes +/- 3dB error in their measurements, so tack that on to any single data point you find in these comparisons (consider this when looking at the Sherwood Engineering list).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 12:59:59 PM by NR9R » Logged
N9AOP
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Posts: 146




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« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 10:33:28 AM »

Think about it for a while guys.  If you think what is out there today is slightly polluting, just wait until the Chinese clones for the O2; K3; and the 3 Japanese biggies hit the market.  The price point will be just what all cheap hams want and the IMD should be outrageous.
Art, N9AOP
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