Technician aspiring to General needs HF antenna advice, pls!

[W7KB]

I live in a HOA restricted community near Tucson,Az.In a matter of minutes I can set up my Transworld TW-2010 portable and work wonders with it.It will switch bands instantly with a control box on 10-20 meters.It takes me longer to unwind my coaxial cable than to set antenna up.Just got QSL from 9K2GS yesterday running 80 watts.Not bad for a portable antenna.Good luck in your selection.73,Dennis W7KB.

[WS4E]

50w and a small wire that no one can see into the trees and you can work the world and no one will even know that you exist.

[N3LCW]

Dave,

Take a look at   http://www.dxengineering.com/  and check the stealth antenna tab on the left.  Download the .PDF user manual and look at their installation suggestions.

It's basically a hidden remote autotuner, a radial system, and a small wire.   You can use that in your yard and run a small gauge wire up to mount point on the 2nd floor window (if the 2nd floor window is still part of your apartment).  Or run the wire to a tree.

Like everyone suggested, save the amp for later.

Andrew
N3LCW

[KI4ENS]

I second the wire in the trees.  Consider a random wire tuner and a long piece of wire to start with.  While not the best, its inexpensive.  I worked Texas from Kentucky on 2.5 watts,  and MFJ-16010 random wire tuner and a scrap of wire.  Next look into end-fed halfwave length antennas.  Easy to deploy.  I have not tried them yet.

[KE4DRN]

hi,

save big money by using a Contractors Aluminum Tripod instead of the outpost tripod
along with 3" x 36" flat aluminum for the radials (three).

you can get the contractor or surveyors tripod for $55 with free shipping on ebay,
just search for Contractors Aluminum Tripod

I mounted a Little Tarheel II antenna to the tripod and it works great.

73 james

[W5LZ]

With the area you have available for an antenna (10' x 10') you are going to be at a severe disadvantage on any of the HF bands.  Mainly because there's just not enough room for running radials.  And also as pointed out, neighbors with electronics are a source of problems like you wouldn't believe.
About that parking lot you're next to, do you, or can you park in it?  Near your apartment?  See where that's going?
There are several brands/types of antennas that could probably 'work' in your situation, but none of them will work very well.
Another option would be to sell that amplifier, find a hand held capable of remote operation with whatever Icom calls their scheme, leave the HF radio in the car.  (Didn't say it was a 'good' option, just an option.)  Got 'wireless' networking?
Or just buy the @#$ building and do what you want??
Paul
 

[KX8N]

I used an Outbacker with the matching tripod, and back in 2003 I made contacts with Japan, Hawaii, Alaska, and the Soviet Union with and Icom running 100 watts. So the antenna is definitely a performer in my opinion.

[STAYVERTICAL]

Hi Dave,
I sympathise with your situation, as I am in a similar situation with a setup/takedown antenna arrangement.
I found the best option is a vertical made from telescoping aluminium tubes from the hardware store.
I use 1 metre lengths of 25mm , 20mm, 16mm and finally 12mm. I can telescope these up to around 3 metres without a problem.
I use hose clamps at the end of each tube to tighten slightly the tube inside it.
I found an old tripod with a 20mm hole in the middle at an opportunity store and use that with a section of 20mm outside diameter
pvc pipe with a dowel rod inside it for strength.
The antenna just  slides over the pvc/dowel insulator and I use a remote ATU at the base.
3 elevated radials ( 3 foot off the ground ) of whatever length and wherever you can put them complete the setup.
Complete time to setup is 10 mins and takedown is 5 mins.
I work DX all over the world with this and 100w max, but am mainly a PSK31 digimodes operator where 100w is too much in many
cases.

The total cost for my antenna was around $40 including the tripod.

I would forget about spending big money on a commercial antenna, spend it on a good remote antenna tuner (forget the manual jobs),
then you will be able to tune whatever bit of wire or aluminium you fancy.

Using a remote antenna tuner at the antenna itself will give you maximum efficiency, make you forget about lossy loading coils and all that other stuff.
Continuously loaded whips, loading coils, traps ... is all pre-Autotuner technology, and even the military uses a big whip and a remote ATU for comms nowdays.

Want to work 17m, 24m, whatever! - no problem , press the button for the remote ATU and your tuned.
This is my primary and only antenna solution and I work mainly DX and have thousands of DX contacts during the solar minimum to prove this works well.
If you want, just string a wire from the eaves to  the other end of your green space and connect it to the remote ATU.
Remember to use an elevated counterpoise if possible for efficiency - if not lay it on the ground.

I can tell you from experience, you will be much happier putting money into a remote atu than an overpriced whip antenna.

[KF1C]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - I have a lot of bookmarked websites to read now and I appreciate being shown that I at least have more options than I was able to find. Unfortunately K5LXP, I'm on the corner lot and I look out over a vast parking lot - nowhere for co-ax to go! 
I have operated in similar circumstances many times. It really up to your imagination, buy a roll of thin wire and experiment with thIn wire run from the tuner outside.

In a similar situation as yours I bought a good mobile antenna, mounted it on my car. And found a high hill nearby where I could park when I wanted to make contacts. Can you run coax from your apt to your car?? Your vehicle would make an excellent mount for one of the large screwdriver mobile antennas.

[KD0KZE]

This thread interests me also (I just upgraded from Technician to General a couple days ago).  For my 2m/70cm rig, I built a homebrew antenna around a Comet GP-3, 5' mast, and approx 3' tripod.  Originally planned on mounting this on my roof, but didn't like the grounding issues, too many trees overhanging (heavy wind + waving branches = broken antenna), etc.

So I bought three concrete pedestals used for anchoring wooden 4x4's in porch/deck applications.  Used a masonry bit to drill into the concrete, tapped some mounts and screwed the tripod to the concrete blocks.  Ran a coax into my basement and have been quite pleased with the results (Kenwood TM-V71A).  Whole thing met my requirements.  Reasonable budget, very sturdy and yet it could be moved if I desire, reasonable height (tip of antenna is about 15' off the ground).

But as I begin looking at HF, I don't think this sort of arrangement would work at all.  And I'm not keen on erecting a tower on my property -- unless I call a tree service first.  The other possibility is a wire.

A third possibility -- and I wonder if anyone here has attempted it -- is to mount a regular antenna on a tree itself (using it effectively as a tower).  I have some 50' spruce on my property.  I'd hire a tree guy to mount it for me.  Is this nutty, or worthwhile to consider?  I imagine one of the problems would be the tree's movement in high winds (you'd need to keep sufficient slack on the coax to accommodate)?  

[K5LXP]

Wire antennas and trees go hand in hand.  No point in putting up a 50' tower or mast to hold a wire if you have a 50' tree on your lot. 

For a while I had a vertical wire suspended from a 35' pine and used it as a 40M quarter wave.  It was tricky to get a messenger line up through the very top but once you do you can do any manner of experiments with different wire configurations.

I also mount antennas to tree branches, though these are small VHF/UHF ground planes.  I pick a branch with adequate clearance around it, and just screw the antenna brackets right into the branch.  Then I spiral the coax down the branch to a suitable point where I can route it to the shack.  Not that I'm against putting antennas on the roof, but I've run out of room.  :-)


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

[KD0KZE]

I'll check that out.  My problem is that my tallest trees (spruce) are near the power lines.  They're about halfway up.  So if I shoot something up the tree and miss, I may end up snagging a power line (not an option).  Looks like I'll either need to hire someone to go up there, or else find a safe angle to launch string up over a branch, to haul up the antenna wire.

Wire antennas and trees go hand in hand.  No point in putting up a 50' tower or mast to hold a wire if you have a 50' tree on your lot. 

For a while I had a vertical wire suspended from a 35' pine and used it as a 40M quarter wave.  It was tricky to get a messenger line up through the very top but once you do you can do any manner of experiments with different wire configurations.

I also mount antennas to tree branches, though these are small VHF/UHF ground planes.  I pick a branch with adequate clearance around it, and just screw the antenna brackets right into the branch.  Then I spiral the coax down the branch to a suitable point where I can route it to the shack.  Not that I'm against putting antennas on the roof, but I've run out of room.  :-)


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

[AA4PB]

#1 rule of antennas: Anything physically shorter than 1/2 wavelength (or 1/4 wavelength with lots of radials under it) is going to be a compromise in terms of efficiency. In spite of some manufacture's claims, there is no "magic solution" that will bypass that rule. The shorter the antenna (in terms of wavelength), the less of your transmitter's power gets radiated and the more gets converted the heat.

[WA6MJE]

I have had HOA problems for two decades.  Plan what you do carefully. All small area antennas are compromises.  You need to make sure you take advantage of every possible option to minimize loss.  Here are some I selected.
1) Vertical rather than horizontal to gain a better low angle of radiation.
2) Elevated vertical about 6 feet so that resonant radials can be used for less ground losses.
3) Hi-Q coil with center fed to minimize coil loss. (Made by Hi-Q antennas if you can afford one.)
4) You can bend your elevated radial, it does not need to be in a straight line. (Not needed with the Buddipole discussed below)
5) I used a musicians tripod for support since it is heavy enough to avoid guys. (Not needed with the complete Buddipole system below).
6) I used a lot of the Buddipole, Buddistick system as it is more or less an erector set of parts. You could fit a Buddipole in your 10 by 10 area in the "L" configuration. One element goes straight up (vertical), the other element droops down at about a 120 degree angle to form the counterpoise. It is not exactly a horizontal dipole, more like a ground plane. No radials would be needed. To fit this you would use the "short" whips.  Both have adjustable coils. If you put the Buddipole tripod on one corner of your 10 by 10, the "L" would probably fit the diagonal length of your patio. Nothing would go outside the patio.  The Buddipole system has its own tripod.  You can assemble it in about 5 minutes. You could work 10 to 40 meters with this with good results.  If you talk to the folks on the Yahoo Buddipole User Group (Google this) you can talk to hundreds of hams that have good luck with the Buddipole. If you go to the buddipole website and click on "Documentation" there is free 170 page downloadable book "Buddipole in the Field", by B. Scott Andersen (NE1RD) that discusses every possible configuration of the Buddipole, with plots of the gain, bandwidth, and so on.  If nothing else you will learn a lot about antenna loss or gain from this free book. 
7) I have a 10 by 30 foot area, and work very well with this. At night I go full height on 20 or 40 meters using Buddipole parts, and the "long whip" and also a 32 foot fiberglass telescoping rod.
8-NOTE: The Buddipole system will not handle an amplifier. BUT, if you use other parts with some of their system I could very well handle that much power.  I agree with what has been said here, I would NOT use an amplifier that low and close to the ground for safety and also RFI reasons.  I do not have nor need nor want an amplifier.
9) I resist the use of an antenna tuner at the transceiver end. It masks problems rather than fixes them. With the Buddipole I can always get an acceptable SWR. I cannot afford to waste efficiency since I already have so much going against me. 
10) If you can buy an antenna analyzer to help you setup your antenna you will get it spot on each time, again for maximizing efficiency.  Every tiny bit counts. You can get a used MFJ 259B analyzer on ebay for less than $150.  I could not do well without one.   

Read Scott Andersen's book, and I think you will see how you can use the Buddipole in a 10 foot by 10 foot patio, put it up and take it down and have reasonable results.  I have no problems with it, and I mix and match other parts with it (such as the Hi-Q remotely tuned antenna on top of the Buddipole Versa T).  I have tried just about everything else and this is my best facts case with my limited area and need to take-up and put down every day. 

Good luck. Rene WA6MJE.

[KG4FET]

I concur with several others as to the amp, DON'T Run it!  You have metal eave drip? Clean a small area, and I mean a small area.  Run a screw into it connect a small wire to it and that to the wire feed of a GOOD tuner.  Instant antenna. At 100 watts this will work well for all bands 10-160.  Keep in mind that the drip is connected where the nails go through at each joint so it is one continuous length. The single wire feed is easy to hide and can be passed through any hole or window.  The screw can be painted to match.  I have done this at this QTH until I could get wires into trees.

Another suggestion, Gutters. Feed the same way as the drip.  You can tap the end of the downspout so NO ONE can see the wire feed.  2 a distance apart can be fed as a dipole even if they are not of equal length. Locate the feed point anywhere between the 2 gutters run a wire to each one.  Hide the feed under the eaves and feed with the same coax as they used for the cable/sat TV in your Apt.  No one pays attention to cable that is attached to the wall and most wont look up for the feed point.

All of these suggestions will depend on YOU operating your equipment in such a way as to prevent RFI.  Good Grounds, No over modulation, no processor ect... I run 175 to 200 watts from my Swan 400 here and have had no complaints, as yet, with RFI.  I do not advertise I am a ham to my neighbors, the maintenance men for my building know I have antennas up but both are or were hams. 
GL ES God Bless
DE KG4FET Sandor