Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Code/No Code CW-Do we need it?  (Read 59766 times)
AB2T
Member

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 04:13:32 AM »

The reason students are grade-driven is simple: Grades can be the difference. Between continuing and not continuing. Between a job and no job. Etc. And since students are not paid, grades are the visible evidence of accomplishment.

Counterintuitively, the higher a student gets in the educational system the less grades matter.  At the PhD level, the most valuable exams are the comprehensives and orals.  These are the admissions tests for the ABD. Fail, and you're not writing that monograph or executing the great experiment.  The exams are pass/fail almost everywhere.  At my school, the student is merely informed that the requirement is completed.  This is quite the opposite of a 250-student first year class with a grading curve etc.  Postgrad education is about the quality and not quantity.

In "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance", Robert Pirsig discusses a theoretical University without grades. It is even more revolutionary now than it was then.

I know from experience that the "gradeless classrooms" often fail.  Students often lose motivation or direction.  Yet the A to F system need not be the only metric for evaluation.  Again, postgraduate education often relies on the verified completion of basic requirements plus demonstrated research ability.  Sure, a doctoral student might write a "sufficient" comp exam.  Yet his or her reputation in the department will rest on the direction of the demonstrated knowledge.  "Pass/Fail" doesn't mean an easy out necessarily.  This grading system merely establishes a baseline for holistic evaluation. 

Where all this ties into Amateur Radio is simple: Amateur Radio is a University of Radio, but without grades. The license tests are *entry* tests, not exit exams, and the education can be life-long. Each of us can be student and teacher, researcher and administrator, as we decide. And it's all interest-driven.

And as in any true University, there's a wide range of activities, but you do need to meet some basic requirements to get in.

Quite true.  This is in keeping with what I have written above.  Ham radio exams establish the evaluation baseline, as you suggest.  The ham who holds an Extra is held to a higher water mark than a Technician, but both have met certain minimum requirements to continue self-directed education.  Very good point.

Grades can be the difference. Between continuing and not continuing. Between a job and no job. Etc.

The "will this be on the test?" mentality will be with us until the Second Coming or when the big asteroid hits, depending on one's persuasion.  I've found that students in humanities introductory classes that arrive from other departments sometimes view arts survey courses as gumball machines: insert the coin, twist the arm of the professor or TA, and get the desired result.  I find myself very constrained in what I can lecture about simply because the professor (and by consequence the TA's) are always aiming to produce an easy to grade exam.  I wish I could teach two entire courses on Christian church architecture, but I have two 50 minute sessions to cover the nativity scene to Pope Benedict.  Forced credentialization through compulsory post-secondary education has stifled discussion and intellectual development. 
 

Maybe you mean that the job duties don't require a college-degree - and you're probably right. But most employers prefer hiring degreed employees over those without a degree - for the good jobs, anyway.

Name some well-paying jobs that someone can get without a BA or BS - today. How many of them are really out there?

<snip>

You mean the degree functions as a door-opener, and I agree. The degree is seen as proof that the person can stick with something and be responsible in certain ways. A rite of passage, as it were.

<snip>

But now the harsh reality is that getting that degree has become enormously expensive, and has to be justified on economic grounds. IOW, "what job will that sheepskin lead to?"

A very good friend of mine taught community college math and tutored the SAT for many years.  He found an interesting dichotomy among community college students.  Some of the students in his classes chose to attend CC because of the low tuition and the automatic transfer to the state university for a BA or BS degree.  My friend enjoyed working with these high achieving students and helped them get ahead.  However, some students marked time in the CC system.  Some had no interest in advancing towards the two-year degree and merely attended to appease a parent.  The latter mentality is a waste of time, money, and (disinterested) effort.  Unmotivated students would be better off going training for a trade rather than pursuing remedial academic education.  Yet many employers still require that postsecondary meal ticket regardless of whether or not the job requires postsecondary academic abilities. 

My friend also tutored a student that did not want to take the SAT.  He wanted to be a plumber like his father.  I say, great!  Plumbing is a good occupation that pays well and is in demand.  My friend agreed, and encouraged the student to look into an apprenticeship.  A few days later the student's irate mother called my friend and fired him for encouraging the student to seek employment rather than the community college.  She did not want her son to be "disadvantaged" by not having a college education.       

The cultural drift towards compulsory postsecondary education has harmed students.  College should not be viewed as a social marker.  Rather, a person should seek the employment that best suits him or her regardless of pressures to attend a collegiate academic  program.  There are socio-cultural valences here, such as economic position and ethnicity.  Nevertheless, I do think that some of these inequalities are manufactured by the corporate/economic insistence on postsecondary education as credentialization and as a marker of social position.

This was all OT, but I agree that some parallels exist between credentialization and the amateur radio testing program debate.

73, Jordan
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 04:17:19 AM by Jordan » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




Ignore
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 04:43:34 AM »

Counterintuitively, the higher a student gets in the educational system the less grades matter.  At the PhD level, the most valuable exams are the comprehensives and orals.  These are the admissions tests for the ABD. Fail, and you're not writing that monograph or executing the great experiment.  The exams are pass/fail almost everywhere.  At my school, the student is merely informed that the requirement is completed.  This is quite the opposite of a 250-student first year class with a grading curve etc.  Postgrad education is about the quality and not quantity. .

Sort of. Ultimately there is still a grade; you either make it or you don't.

And how much of the requirements for a master's or doctorate is stuff that isn't really relevant but is thrown in to keep the supply limited?

In "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance", Robert Pirsig discusses a theoretical University without grades. It is even more revolutionary now than it was then.


I know from experience that the "gradeless classrooms" often fail.  Students often lose motivation or direction.  Yet the A to F system need not be the only metric for evaluation.  Again, postgraduate education often relies on the verified completion of basic requirements plus demonstrated research ability.  Sure, a doctoral student might write a "sufficient" comp exam.  Yet his or her reputation in the department will rest on the direction of the demonstrated knowledge.  "Pass/Fail" doesn't mean an easy out necessarily.  This grading system merely establishes a baseline for holistic evaluation.

If you haven't read "Zen And The Art...", you should. I cannot do justice to the treatment Pirsig gives the subject of the true University. It is exactly in line with this discussion.

I think the book is online.


Where all this ties into Amateur Radio is simple: Amateur Radio is a University of Radio, but without grades. The license tests are *entry* tests, not exit exams, and the education can be life-long. Each of us can be student and teacher, researcher and administrator, as we decide. And it's all interest-driven.

And as in any true University, there's a wide range of activities, but you do need to meet some basic requirements to get in.


Quite true.  This is in keeping with what I have written above.  Ham radio exams establish the evaluation baseline, as you suggest.  The ham who holds an Extra is held to a higher water mark than a Technician, but both have met certain minimum requirements to continue self-directed education.  Very good point.

Thanks, but what's most important is what the ham does after the license is earned. IOW, when s/he is actually in the University of Radio.

I see a problem with splitting off certain fields of study from others, however: the cross-education will go away. I think those in the "pure" academics need exposure to the professions and "practical" stuff, and the reverse.

Grades can be the difference. Between continuing and not continuing. Between a job and no job. Etc.

The "will this be on the test?" mentality will be with us until the Second Coming or when the big asteroid hits, depending on one's persuasion.  I've found that students in humanities introductory classes that arrive from other departments sometimes view arts survey courses as gumball machines: insert the coin, twist the arm of the professor or TA, and get the desired result.  I find myself very constrained in what I can lecture about simply because the professor (and by consequence the TA's) are always aiming to produce an easy to grade exam.  I wish I could teach two entire courses on Christian church architecture, but I have two 50 minute sessions to cover the nativity scene to Pope Benedict.  Forced credentialization through compulsory post-secondary education has stifled discussion and intellectual development.

I think it's more a question of limited resources. How much time and effort do most students have to study Christian church architecture unless it is a particular interest of theirs?
What about Islamic mosque architecture? Buddhist temple architecture, etc.?
 

Maybe you mean that the job duties don't require a college-degree - and you're probably right. But most employers prefer hiring degreed employees over those without a degree - for the good jobs, anyway.

Name some well-paying jobs that someone can get without a BA or BS - today. How many of them are really out there?

<snip>

You mean the degree functions as a door-opener, and I agree. The degree is seen as proof that the person can stick with something and be responsible in certain ways. A rite of passage, as it were.

<snip>

But now the harsh reality is that getting that degree has become enormously expensive, and has to be justified on economic grounds. IOW, "what job will that sheepskin lead to?"


A very good friend of mine taught community college math and tutored the SAT for many years.  He found an interesting dichotomy among community college students.  Some of the students in his classes chose to attend CC because of the low tuition and the automatic transfer to the state university for a BA or BS degree.  My friend enjoyed working with these high achieving students and helped them get ahead.  However, some students marked time in the CC system.  Some had no interest in advancing towards the two-year degree and merely attended to appease a parent.  This is a waste of time, money, and (disinterested) effort.  Unmotivated students would be better off going training for a trade rather than pursuing remedial academic education.  Yet many employers still require that postsecondary meal ticket regardless of whether or not the job requires postsecondary academic abilities.  

My friend also tutored a student that did not want to take the SAT.  He wanted to be a plumber like his father.  I say, great!  Plumbing is a good occupation that pays well and is in demand.  My friend agreed, and encouraged the student to look into an apprenticeship.  A few days later the student's irate mother called my friend and fired him for encouraging the student to seek employment rather than the community college.  She did not want her son to be "disadvantaged" by not having a college education.  

Yes, the CC students who are there marking time are wasting resources - particularly those of the school, because someone who is truly motivated could be in that CC seat.

But the plumber story, while related, is different. The building trades may seem like good jobs to an outsider, but they have their own challenges, which the "irate mother" has seen first hand.

First, there's the education. Plumbing may appear to be fundamentally simple, and in theory it is. But to be a Master Plumber requires considerable education and experience, and knowledge of a wide range of disciplines and technologies.

Second, there's the constantly changing technologies. New stuff appears all the time, some of it good, some of it junk. A plumber who installs junk will soon have his/her reputation destroyed. Finding parts for old installations can be a time-eating and expensive headache.

Tied in with the technologies are the building codes, licenses, permits, inspections, etc. Which are a big deal.

Third is the whole business aspect. Advertising, revenue, tools, vehicle, supplies, bookkeeping, taxes and much more. Many of those things do not generate revenue directly but are essential to the business. 

The construction trades go through enormous ups and downs, calls in the middle of the night, weekends, holidays, etc. Many people do not understand that the reason a plumber has to charge so much is to cover all the costs and the slow times.

There's also competition from cut-rate folks who bend the rules and get away with it.

Finally there's dealing with people, often in their homes or business places. A good plumber could write books about Plumbing Psychology.
    

The cultural drift towards compulsory postsecondary education has harmed students.  College should not be viewed as a social marker.  Rather, a person should seek the employment that best suits him or her regardless of pressures to attend a collegiate academic  program.  

In a better world, yes. But in reality, that degree is often a door-opener, which earlier generations didn't need.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Agreed!

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
AB2T
Member

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 11:47:45 AM »

Frankly, I'm rather aggravated that some code elitists calls me a so-called moral failure just because I don't love, honor, cherish, and obey morsemanship according to the Church of St. Hiram.

I'm not a priest, minister, or rabbi.  I'm not trained to counsel on moral matters.  However, I suspect that a clergyperson wouldn't categorize the like or dislike of morse code as a moral failing.  The hatred of others for any reason, and especially for a matter as petty as the CW avocation, could be perceived as irrational and perhaps even immoral.  "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is often interpreted as an injunction against envy.

I have my prejudices as well.  I dislike phone quite a bit.  I find the jamming, language, and often idiotic and childish behavior offputting.  I haven't a clue why some hams like to operate phone.  Why would an operator wish to contend with this behavior when CW operators are much more civil?  I haven't been on phone in fourteen years, and I have no desire to pick up a microphone ever again.  Pity is a failing of mine.  Yet, I am willing to place aside my prejudices even though that is difficult sometimes.

When I get my rig running again I'll get on phone occasionally, just to keep the prejudices at bay.  I might enjoy an occasional phone contact or find that I'd rather be on CW again.  In any event I am determined to pick up that microphone.  The path to reconciliation and the healing of prejudice indeed involves not only walking in another's shoes but also appreciating the shoes he wears.  I am quite far from admiring those shoes and taking my first paces in them. 

73, Jordan
Logged
K6LHA
Member

Posts: 349




Ignore
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 12:14:13 PM »

Actually, Len, I think the fact that these fundamentalist fanatics are are now DYING in ever-increasing numbers has far more to do with that lack of action than any "guerrilla war" they may be mounting. 
That's "gorilla war" and they ain't no bigger than chimps...OOK OOK OOK   Cheesy

(try Isla Flacka and actor-comedian Reni Santoni's routine on talk shows of long ago)

Quote
As I've said, this crowd already KNOWS their cause is lost and that the FCC is NO LONGER listening to any of their fundamentalist rants.  So, online forums like these remain their only outlet to express their extreme displeasure over the fact that the last remaining regulatory underpinnings for decades of "I'm better than you" snobbery are now being yanked out from underneath their collectively upturned noses.
Keith, realistically speaking, I really don't think that thought has hit home yet with the electrolyte-proselytes.  Really.  They so much want to live in the PAST that they appear almost deranged when they try to boost-boast about code. Or, when they turn off their computers, have a nice cry by themselves...

Quote
Indeed, their once wonderfully satisfying game of ramming their fundamentalist views down the throats of others in our Service is now coming to a screeching, grinding halt as their revisionist dogma falls on more and more deaf ears.  By any measure, it has now become painfully apparent that this crowd is no longer capable of generating a major following among mainstream hams with their rigid, 1950s-era revisionist thinking.
Not to worry, Keith, the good old ARRL will look over them and boost the old ways like they've always done.  Big Brother will come to their aid.

Quote
And for people who continually need to bask in the light of their own self-importance, such developments have GOT to be a tough pill to swallow.
Keith, I live only a half hour's drive from Hollywood and all those actors. Cheesy Ain't no actors who don't "bask in their own self-importance." Cheesy

I haven't been to a Hollywood Hills party in six years and it won't hurt me a bit to never go to one again.  Think some hams are bad?  Ham actors are worse.  Cheesy

Quote
Indeed, in many ways, those who were once "first" under the old regulatory and licensing systems for our Service are now finding themselves "last" under the new one.  And, based on the ever-more shrill rants emanating from our Service's self-appointed keepers of the "One True Gospel of Amateur Radio", the increasingly widespread repudiation of that "Gospel" as little more than bigoted bunkum is turning out to be nothing short of pure, unadulterated, emotional agony for many of these people.
Couldn't happen to nicer folks... Cheesy

73, Len K6LHA
Logged
K6LHA
Member

Posts: 349




Ignore
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 02:00:59 PM »

Quote from: K6LHA on Yesterday at 04:33:45 PM:  Frankly, I'm rather aggravated that some code elitists calls me a so-called moral failure just because I don't love, honor, cherish, and obey morsemanship according to the Church of St. Hiram.

I'm not a priest, minister, or rabbi.  I'm not trained to counsel on moral matters.
Tsk, tsk, Morality Accusations are NOT certified by CREDENTIALISM.

That includes the pseudo-credentialism of the ARRL as "our" "national representative" (very false) in USA amateur radio.

If you have lived any sort of life OUTSIDE of academic isolation or the isolation of one-person/one-station/one-band amateur radio activity, then you would have been exposed to a massive and mixed variety of MORALITY.

For decades the FCC had kept the SINGULAR pass-fail code test for an amateur radio license in every class but the "no-code-test" Technician class (created legally in 1991). Yet, through all that time enforced by ITU-R Special Radio Regulation S25 up to July 2003, the FCC gave the OPTION of using any allocated mode/modulation.  OPTION.

Yet, under the prompting of certain minority groups the elitist code punders KEPT their exclusive sub-sub-band allocations just for themselves. They still have those, yet they bitch and holler fire-and-brimstone rantings upon those who will not do as THEY say. It is as close to demagogury as one can get.

Finally, in December of 2006 the FCC released Memorandum Report and Order 06-178 which established the elimination of all USA amateur radio code TESTING beginning 23 February 2007. The OPTION of using any allocated mode/modulation was left up to the individual licensee. Nothing really changed in USA amateur radio operation. WE still had plenty of OPTIONS to use.  The LEGAL technicality of having ONE pass-fail test on a mode that was OPTIONAL to use was resolved...3 1/2 or so years after S25 was rewritten at WRC-03.

It has been 7 years since WRC-03 and S25 revision and yet the self-righteous code bigots keep on emphasizing and proselyting and preaching about "we MUST be proficient in radiotelegraphy (or we are not 'real hams')" AS IF they were the sole judge and jury over who should do what in amateur radio. To depart from the pseudo-intellectual obfuscatory blabber that has infected this topic, I just say BS to them. I would say more but there are injunctions of "use nice languge" or be deleted if some pansies in here are "offended."

Quote
I have my prejudices as well.  I dislike phone quite a bit.
That is your personal OPTION. Just because code TESTING was dropped does NOT mean you just use radiotelephone voice mode.  No one is FORCING you by "moral-ethical badness charges" to use anything but what you personally want to use in the FCC's options.

However, try to FORCE a change in the USA amateur radio regulations to REINTRODUCE code testing and you've got a fight going that won't stop.  R&O 06-178 was a LEGAL issue on USA amateur radio regulations, not some pompous self-righteous demands by some mentally old men who couldn't divorce themselves from the past and re-enter the reality of today.

Quote
The path to reconciliation and the healing of prejudice indeed involves not only walking in another's shoes but also appreciating the shoes he wears.  I am quite far from admiring those shoes and taking my first paces in them.
Oh, my, aren't YOU the self-righteous martyr as well as superior educated being!

You just go ahead and obfuscate the topic and make all the pseudo-intellectual jabber about things which are NOT ABOUT the topic.  That way you can both get a "rep" as (supposed) superior moral beings who are way above the mundane issues of things like amateur radio. Keep up this pseudo-intellectual chit-chat and e-ham will simply delete the whole topic due to space wasting.

73, Len K6LHA
Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




Ignore
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2010, 06:08:36 PM »

I'm not a priest, minister, or rabbi.  I'm not trained to counsel on moral matters. 

Maybe not.

But all of us make moral judgements every day.

For example, tomorrow is election day in the USA. Who a citizen votes for is partly a moral judgement. If a citizen decides not to vote, that's a moral judgement too.

There's no escaping it. Even saying "I choose not to judge" is a form of judgement.

However, I suspect that a clergyperson wouldn't categorize the like or dislike of morse code as a moral failing.  The hatred of others for any reason, and especially for a matter as petty as the CW avocation, could be perceived as irrational and perhaps even immoral.  "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is often interpreted as an injunction against envy.

I agree!

But it must be remembered that some folks can take any disagreement, no matter how slight, as an insult, criticism, and/or moral judgement against them - personally.

There's also the case of the person who freely makes moral judgements of others but doesn't want to be judged in turn.



I have my prejudices as well.  I dislike phone quite a bit.  I find the jamming, language, and often idiotic and childish behavior offputting.  I haven't a clue why some hams like to operate phone.  Why would an operator wish to contend with this behavior when CW operators are much more civil?  I haven't been on phone in fourteen years, and I have no desire to pick up a microphone ever again.  Pity is a failing of mine.  Yet, I am willing to place aside my prejudices even though that is difficult sometimes.

Couple of things there:

1) What you have isn't a prejudice as much as a preference.
2) While the bad behavior you describe is most prevalent on 'phone, it is really the work of a relatively small minority of hams. The vast majority of hams that I have worked on voice modes have been courteous, considerate ops. (The same is true of hams online, too). The exceptions are notorious, but few.
3) A considerable number of hams don't have options other than 'phone, because they lack the equipment, skill and/or knowledge to use other modes.
4) A few actually like the bad behavior. Remember that, before he moved to satellite radio, Howard Stern was the #1 personality in broadcast radio in terms of listeners.

When I get my rig running again I'll get on phone occasionally, just to keep the prejudices at bay.  I might enjoy an occasional phone contact or find that I'd rather be on CW again.  In any event I am determined to pick up that microphone.

I picked one up just last night. Didn't have an element in it, though. So I put it back down.

  The path to reconciliation and the healing of prejudice indeed involves not only walking in another's shoes but also appreciating the shoes he wears.  I am quite far from admiring those shoes and taking my first paces in them.

Actually the first step is wanting to reconcile. If a person doesn't want that, the walking won't help.

73 de Jim, N2EY

...trying to remember the old joke about how, if you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, you'll wind up a mile away and have a new pair of shoes....
Logged
AB2T
Member

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2010, 07:34:14 PM »

Couple of things there:

1) What you have isn't a prejudice as much as a preference.

No, it's a prejudice.  I am being honest about my prejudices because I am quite flawed and hypocritical on this issue.  Tolerance and regard are not the same. 

I'm convinced that CW operators are generally more skilled than phone operators.  I consider CW an art and phone mundane communication little different than picking up a telephone.  Yes, there's skill in phone operation protocol and contesting, for example.  A key (and in particular a straight key or a bug) in the hands of a skilled CW operator is music comparable to any instrument.  CW operation contributes the added art of shaping the very elements of communication as well as content.   

Also, as I have mentioned, the abuse of jargon on phone irks me.  That's irrational and my own neurosis.  Still, I am loathe to get on phone simply because I'd rather have a jargon-free conversation.  I have stopped using 2m/70cm FM for the same reason.  I find that jargon use projects an uneducated or unintelligent demeanor.  It doesn't take much to speak clearly as one would speak in a public situation (work, commerce, etc.) 

Similarly, I am afraid to go on phone for a ragchew because I do not use jargon.  I find that the "CW language" frees me from having to conform to uncomfortable behaviors.  Judging from some of the nets I have listened to, I would not be welcome on a HF phone net.  I speak and sound like a pointyhead inside and outside of the tower.  Better, then, to not bother unless there's a "Pointyhead Net". :-)

I once thought it would be great to have a HF phone net (roundtable) on novels, nonfiction, humanities and scientific articles, advances in computer programming and operating systems, linguistics, physics, engineering, -- any intellectual endeavor.  That net would be jammed to smithereens. :-(  Both you and I know that there would be envious hams that would destroy intelligent conversation.  This is why I do not go on phone anymore.  I'd rather join an interesting email list or converse with friends than attempt to have a serious conversation on ham radio phone both above and below 50 MHz. 
   
2) While the bad behavior you describe is most prevalent on 'phone, it is really the work of a relatively small minority of hams. The vast majority of hams that I have worked on voice modes have been courteous, considerate ops. (The same is true of hams online, too). The exceptions are notorious, but few.

I agree.  Most phone ops are courteous.  I'm not saying this in a patronizing manner.  Indeed, most phone ops are just as considerate as their CW brethren.  This is fact.  There are certainly code lids that jam DX by leaning on the key.  CW operators aren't saints.  Nevertheless, I don't have to put up with fart noises or racist diatribes on the code bands. 

3) A considerable number of hams don't have options other than 'phone, because they lack the equipment, skill and/or knowledge to use other modes.

A HF phone transmitter is much more complex (and expensive) than any CW transmitter.  One would be hard pressed to get on SSB for under $200.  It's possible on CW.

As for skill and knowledge, many hams licensed after 2000 are giving CW a try.  I admire anyone who gives it a good try.  It's not for everyone, and many go back to another mode.  Still, some that entered after the code was lifted precisely because of that liberalization are discovering that they actually enjoy code. 

4) A few actually like the bad behavior. Remember that, before he moved to satellite radio, Howard Stern was the #1 personality in broadcast radio in terms of listeners.

Quite true.  Some regions have set up repeaters for the specific purpose of attracting and trapping lids.  W6NUT in LA is the poster child for this type of repeater.

I'm convinced that the FCC has given up on the top part of 75m, 3950, 14300, 14313, K1MAN, and the rest simply because it's better to let the lids congregate somewhere than let them loose on courteous hams.

Pathetic, but perhaps necessary. 

73, Jordan
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:04:21 PM by Jordan » Logged
KC8WUC
Member

Posts: 54




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 05:50:50 AM »

I would have to, unfortunately, agree with AB2T, as well as others who opt to use CW exclusively (unfortunate due to fact, not due to taking a contrarian view of any poster to this discussion).  I have on several occasions attempted phone conversations via repeaters, SSB, and satellite only to be forced off the air or cut out of conversations.  Civility or the lack thereof is not exclusive to any one mode or service nor is it unique to any color, creed, gender, or nationality; I have found a lack of courtesy, rudeness, and lewd or offensive behavior on the maritime frequencies (VHF, HF, and MF alike), as well as free banders.  At present, I operate exclusively with CW/Morse code on the maritime bands on my vessel and while I am being forced (by circumstances, not choice) to install phone capable equipment as part of a complement of GMDSS installation for Sea Area A3, I'm not looking forward to this.

I have attempted to join a number of nets on 2m/70cm repeaters (when I'm at home and on land) and many discussions below 50MHz only to find that either I'm not welcome (I can't get a word in edgewise during a moment of discussion that has a thread that interests me), that I don't want to join due to boorishness (e.g., ham club nets attempting to proselytize, preach, or condemn non-believers), elistism ("you aren't a real ham because you didn't have to pass an exam that required drawing a circuit diagram, pass a code exam, or take it before 19XX"), banality, or just down ride rude behavior.  I know that this represents a very small fraction of the behaviors exhibited by amateur operators, but this has been my experience. 

Any more, my operating mode of choice has been CW, both on the amateur bands and maritime frequencies. For those who choose phone or any of the digital modes, good for you.  Different strokes for different folks.


73,
Michael KC8WUC/WDE9344

(in port Toulon France)
Logged
N1DVJ
Member

Posts: 530




Ignore
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 12:12:33 PM »

N2EY said "For the record, I have never encountered a real-live radio amateur whose reason for supporting a testing requirement was "I did it so you have to do it too". Nor anything even close to that"

For the record I knew of a NUMBER of hams in the 90's that not only said that openly, but were beligerent about it.  In fact, I know of a few that threatened to 'give up' their license if it ever happened.  But then, there were the braggarts and windbags that SAID they tried to 'downgrade' to Advanced when they went to 5WPM Extras so they could 'prove' they were 'real hams'.  All they really proved was that they were real LIDS.

Logged
KB1SF
Member

Posts: 414


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 02:07:33 PM »

Not to worry, Keith, the good old ARRL will look over them and boost the old ways like they've always done.  Big Brother will come to their aid.

If that's what these people truly believe, Len, then they are sadly mistaken.  

I know for a FACT that the "movers and shakers" at today's ARRL Headquarters are FAR more concerned about their own organizational survival going forward than catering to an ever-shrinking minority of hams who remain (by choice) permanently stuck in the technological and sociological "dark ages".

Looking strictly by the numbers of licensees in each of our license classes (particularly the overwhelming majority of Technician licensees), it is painfully apparent that the vast majority of today's US hams do NOT think as our resident "I'm-Better-Than-You-Because-I-Passed-An-FCC-Administered-20-WPM-Morse-Test" elitists do.  And the League darned well knows that catering exclusively to this ever-shrinking minority of backward-thinking hams is NOT going to garner enough revenue to sustain their organization on into the 21st Century.

The bottom line is that (thankfully!) the "Morse testing forever" crowd no longer has the ear of either the FCC NOR the ARRL!

73,

Keith
KB1SF /  VA3KSF
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:30:55 PM by Keith Baker » Logged
AB2T
Member

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 02:33:30 PM »

If that's what these people truly believe, Len, then they are sadly mistaken. 

I know for a FACT that the "movers and shakers" at today's ARRL Headquarters are FAR more concerned about their own organizational survival going forward than catering to an ever-shrinking minority of hams who remain (by choice) permanently stuck in the technological and sociological "dark ages".

Keith, please read some of the comments above.

Many of us stay on CW not out of elitism or because of Newington but because of the unsavory, inconsiderate, and boorish behavior on phone.

That's not because of you or anyone else on this thread.  However, phone can be a lot more stressful than CW for some people simply because the level of courtesy can be lower than what is found on the CW subbands.

Perhaps if we all worked together to make the phone bands more accessible and less intimidating, more hams would try phone rather than operate CW only.

EDIT: Keith and Len, have you ever been to Newington?  It's a nice little New England town.  Near Hartford.  My American location is less than an hour's drive from ARRL HQ.  Every ARRL employee I have met has been down-to-earth, helpful, and just darn nice.  The W1AW station manager is very helpful and knowledgeable.  Instead of verbally beating the crap out of the League, take a tour and operate W1AW.  Visit the Connecticut Valley in the fall, when the beautiful beech and oak foliage is in bloom.   You'll have a good time, I'm certain.   

And yes, you can ask questions on the tour.  (I hope the staffers are prepared beforehand, however.) 

73, Jordan

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:18:29 PM by Jordan » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




Ignore
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2010, 03:05:08 AM »

Many of us stay on CW not out of elitism or because of Newington but because of the unsavory, inconsiderate, and boorish behavior on phone.

Very true. And there are other reasons:

1) CW gives better results than 'phone for a given power/antenna/complexity situation.

2) CW takes up much less of the band

3) CW makes less local acoustic noise (a factor if you live in a small home with other people)

All of the above are true of some data modes, too. But:

4) CW doesn't require a computer, TNC, modem, rig capable of SSB, etc. that data modes require.

Also:

5) CW offers a completely different operator-radio interface experience. No talking, yet it's usually implemented as an audio mode. No reading a screen or typing on a keyboard. (Many people today spend a lot of their day either talking with other people or using a computer, so this different interface is often a welcome change).

6) It is a heck of a lot of fun - *once you have the skills*. (Of course some people do not value skills - particularly skills they have never developed).

However, phone can be a lot more stressful than CW for some people simply because the level of courtesy can be lower than what is found on the CW subbands.

Perhaps if we all worked together to make the phone bands more accessible and less intimidating, more hams would try phone rather than operate CW only.

That's very true.

But let us not fall into the false dichotomy of phone-vs.-CW as being the only choices. Data modes like PSK31 are also on the table for most hams.

have you ever been to Newington?  It's a nice little New England town.  Near Hartford.  My American location is less than an hour's drive from ARRL HQ.  Every ARRL employee I have met has been down-to-earth, helpful, and just darn nice.  The W1AW station manager is very helpful and knowledgeable. 

Instead of verbally beating the crap out of the League, take a tour and operate W1AW.  Visit the Connecticut Valley in the fall, when the beautiful beech and oak foliage is in bloom.   You'll have a good time, I'm certain.

I visited in 1993. Got the tour, operated W1AW, and had a good time. I want to go back!

However, I expect that if someone went to Hq. with a lot of negative pre-judgements and a hostile attitude, they'd not have the good time you or I had. Nor would they see the good work done at ARRL Hq. now, today.

Some folks bear decades-long grudges against ARRL because of decisions made many years ago by people who are now long dead. They cannot accept the idea that those decisions may have been the right ones for the times, or that they were supported by a majority of League members when they were made.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
KB1SF
Member

Posts: 414


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2010, 04:52:23 AM »

Many of us stay on CW not out of elitism or because of Newington but because of the unsavory, inconsiderate, and boorish behavior on phone.

I enjoy operating CW as well.  

But I also don't push the mode on others as being "ham radio nirvana" or that learning it is some kind of "right of passage" in order to be considered a "real ham".  As you have also seen, I (as well as some recent posters here) have very much run into that "you-aren't-a-real-ham-unless-you-know-Morse" nonsense from others in our ranks, not so much on the air, but, certainly in forums like these as well as at various ham radio gatherings.

Quote
Keith and Len, have you ever been to Newington?  It's a nice little New England town.  Near Hartford.  My American location is less than an hour's drive from ARRL HQ.  Every ARRL employee I have met has been down-to-earth, helpful, and just darn nice.  The W1AW station manager is very helpful and knowledgeable.

Indeed, I have visited ARRL HQ a number of times.  As a result of my official activities with AMSAT, I've also worked closely with many of their directors, staffers and others over the years on several projects of mutual interest.  Like you (and to the person), I've found them to be "down-to-earth, helpful, and just darn nice."  

My beef in these discussions has always been with those League staffers and directors of yesteryear who arbitrarily foisted their "incentive licensing" nonsense on the rest of amateur radio in the United States via their willing stooges in the FCC at the time.  Indeed, the ARRL staffers and directors of today WELL realize they are now having to live with the HUGE negative impact on our Service of those clearly failed policies of the past, and are now trying their level best to reverse many of them so as to keep our Service in the United States looking (and moving) forward, not backward.  

Needless to say, that's a tall order given their own shifting (dying) member base as well as the HUGE pressures now being brought to bear on our spectrum by well-heeled commercial interests who would just LOVE to get their grubby hands on what many of us routinely take for granted....our precious frequencies.  

But, clearly, those backward-thinking "Radio Amish" who frantically advocate the indefinite perpetuation of Morse testing as well as the rest of our horrifically discriminatory "incentive licensing" nonsense as a kind of sacred "right of passage" in our Service are not doing us (or the League) any favors in our collective quest to hang on to our precious frequency spectrum going forward.  

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
Logged
AB2T
Member

Posts: 246




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2010, 07:17:40 PM »

Many of us stay on CW not out of elitism or because of Newington but because of the unsavory, inconsiderate, and boorish behavior on phone.

I enjoy operating CW as well.  

But I also don't push the mode on others as being "ham radio nirvana" or that learning it is some kind of "right of passage" in order to be considered a "real ham".  As you have also seen, I (as well as some recent posters here) have very much run into that "you-aren't-a-real-ham-unless-you-know-Morse" nonsense from others in our ranks, not so much on the air, but, certainly in forums like these as well as at various ham radio gatherings.

I am guilty of perpetuating the "CW ops are the real hams" stereotype.  I am guilty of patronizing the new hams that demonstrate little interest in CW.  I feel sorry that they're "relegated" to phone.  Maybe they feel sorry that my pride is so fragile that I would not "deign" operate phone. 

Perhaps some phone operators find the CW protocol stilted.  CW contacts are very formulaic.  I can see that position.

Also, courteous hams that stay on phone because they have difficulty with CW aren't responsible for the lids.  No one is responsible for the lids but themselves.  This is a point Jim made earlier.  CW operators must stop conflating lid phone ops with those that behave responsibly.  Still, it is quite difficult to essay the phone bands, especially 75m at night, and not come away discouraged and a bit demoralized.  Phone band lids are damaging the reputation of ham radio.  There is little that courteous ops can do but grit their teeth at the lids' antics.

I have often tried to reframe CW as an artistic endeavor as a way to attract newcomers to CW and remove the "real hams operate CW" stigma.  Yet the League and others (save the CW clubs) aren't interested in presenting CW as an avocation.  This, I think, is the only way to break the elitism. 

Keith and Len, have you ever been to Newington?  It's a nice little New England town.  Near Hartford.  My American location is less than an hour's drive from ARRL HQ.  Every ARRL employee I have met has been down-to-earth, helpful, and just darn nice.  The W1AW station manager is very helpful and knowledgeable.

 Needless to say, that's a tall order given their own shifting (dying) member base as well as the HUGE pressures now being brought to bear on our spectrum by well-heeled commercial interests who would just LOVE to get their grubby hands on what many of us routinely take for granted....our precious frequencies.  

But, clearly, those backward-thinking "Radio Amish" who frantically advocate the indefinite perpetuation of Morse testing as well as the rest of our horrifically discriminatory "incentive licensing" nonsense as a kind of sacred "right of passage" in our Service are not doing us (or the League) any favors in our collective quest to hang on to our precious frequency spectrum going forward.  

As you've noted, today's ARRL knows that certain past moves such as Incentive Licensing failed.  I suspect that the vast majority of hams agree.  I suspect that if the ARRL could wind the clock back it would have tried to block Incentive Licensing with more force.  Remember, though, that the FCC favored Incentive Licensing much more than the ARRL.  The ARRL wanted to cap code testing at 13 wpm (Advanced and Extra by written exam only).  The FCC pushed the notion that ham radio was a proving ground for technological advancement.  The ARRL was not as intent on this project.  The ARRL did not push for the 20 wpm. 

Still, you are completely right that today's ARRL must live with this legacy no matter what.  Restructuring has not fully closed this question. 

Yet the favorite frequencies of the "Radio Amish" aren't high on the list of frequencies commercial interests desire.  I don't see a nascent power grab for 40m or 20m.  It's the UHF+ frequencies that should worry hams.  I don't see a real CW presence on 2m or 70cm outside of contests.  I doubt that CW is prevalent in the GHz ranges.  We Amish aren't the target demographic.

Keith, the older ham prejudice against new hams that have not demonstrated CW proficiency and do not operate CW even on an occasional basis will not die away for many years.  You and I know that here in Canada many older Canadians still describe distances in miles, measure small amounts in inches, and weigh items in pounds.  I respect your desire to free new hams from an artificial and hurtful hierarchy.  Still, patience is necessary.  Trudeau changed the roadways.  Still, 33 years later, many Canadians are still happily thinking Imperial.  Give the old CW prejudice some time.

73, Jordan   
Logged
KB1SF
Member

Posts: 414


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2010, 08:46:43 PM »

I have often tried to reframe CW as an artistic endeavor as a way to attract newcomers to CW and remove the "real hams operate CW" stigma.  Yet the League and others (save the CW clubs) aren't interested in presenting CW as an avocation.  This, I think, is the only way to break the elitism.

I suggest it is one of MANY ways that the "elitism" can be "broken".  Another way is for people to simply stop pushing their favorite mode on others (whatever that may be) as a "must do" in order for people to be considered "real hams".

One of the beauties of our hobby is that it is really several hobbies rolled into one.  If someone gets tired of one aspect of the hobby, there is always something else to pursue.  But we have to stop this nonsense that unless someone "does Morse"...or Phone, or RTTY, or Packet, or DX, or Satellite, or whatever...then they aren't "real hams". No matter how you cut it, that's sheer, unadulterated bigotry.  And such boorish behavior has absolutely no place in a publicly funded radio service, let alone being enabled by our regulators via an arcane, 1950s-era licensing system.

What's more, this seemingly permanent fixation by some that everyone still needs to successfully pass a Morse test in order to be a "real ham" is killing our hobby. As I've said, it's much like requiring that new applicants for an automobile driver's license must still demonstrate they also know how to shoe a horse.

Quote
Keith, the older ham prejudice against new hams that have not demonstrated CW proficiency and do not operate CW even on an occasional basis will not die away for many years.

Jordan, the operative word in your sentence is "prejudice".  

And the fact that such "prejudice" is still alive and well and being officially perpetuated in our Service in the form of a horrifically systemically discriminatory, US Government administered licensing system in this day and age is nothing short of criminal.

Quote
You and I know that here in Canada many older Canadians still describe distances in miles, measure small amounts in inches, and weigh items in pounds.  I respect your desire to free new hams from an artificial and hurtful hierarchy.  Still, patience is necessary.  Trudeau changed the roadways.  Still, 33 years later, many Canadians are still happily thinking Imperial.  Give the old CW prejudice some time.

Sorry, Jordan, but I cannot agree.  

Passing such prejudicial behavior off as "good old boy" comradeship and/or "just the way it is" only perpetuates the problem. If these people can't figure out a way to accept and adjust to the new social order of the 21st Century in a public radio service that is administered by taxpayer dollars, then they need to find another hobby to pursue.  For example, golf or tennis may be more to their liking as both activities usually take place in private (vice public) "country clubs" where their overbearing snobbery and perpetuation of largely meaningless "hazing rituals" in order for newcomers to become full-fledged members of the "club" does harm to nobody but (perhaps) themselves.

As I've said, I have no difficulty if such people want to pursue their "Radio Amish" ways in their own narrow little fundamentalist worlds.  But when they keep pushing all that fundamentalist nonsense on the rest of us as a hard and fast requirement for entry and advancement...particularly newcomers and potential newcomers to the hobby...then they become not only a nuisance, but a very real threat to the long-term survival of our Service. That's because all of their fundamentalist dogma drives newcomers (primarily youthful ones who don't subscribe to all that elitist nonsense) away.  

Indeed, I shudder to think of how many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of potential newcomers these clowns have driven away over the years with their rigid, authoritarian dogma, particularly when all their blather is being read and interpreted by potential newcomers to our Service in forums like these as hard and fast requirements for entry into the "inner kingdom" of amateur radio.

The people who insist on perpetuating all that bigoted, fundamentalist garbage are a scourge on the hobby and are simply not welcome in MY amateur radio.  And based on the very real damage these clowns have inflicted on our Service over the years, I should think they wouldn't be made welcome in yours, either.

73,

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 07:23:21 AM by Keith Baker » Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 ... 15 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!