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Author Topic: What is noisier ethernet or wireless?  (Read 4486 times)
K7NHB
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Posts: 226




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« on: December 16, 2010, 09:39:09 AM »

Noting a comment in my question about high end sound cards, it might be that the RX background noise makes this question..shall we say "mute" but I have a choice of running 25 foot CAT-5 ethernet cable from the internet router to my computer or connecting wireless. I'd like the speed performance of ethernet, but wonder about how much additional noise I'd introduce into the shack.  At this point I don't have an outside Antenna, though it is a good time, CC&R wise, to string up a "line" that will hold Xmas lights, then forget to put the lights on it. So my wet string inside the shack, is much more sensitive to other noise generating devices inside the shack.  Of course that is only temporary. Eventually a proper TX antenna will appear.

Or is the concern more the other way around - the the TX might mess up the wireless or ethernet wire connection? I'm guessing ferrites on both ends the ethernet wire might help. Or is this simply a "...Don't worry about it."
Thank you and 73,
Paul
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W8JX
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Posts: 6078




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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 06:06:00 AM »

HF transmit will not effect wireless at all which operates at 2.3 ghz. Cordless phone can sometimes interfere with B/G/N and micro wave ovens can cause problems too in addition to other wireless nodes in your area. As far as speed any good B or G connection can easily keep up with any home broadband connection in bandwidth. If it cannot it is likely because of interference reducing throughput. If you have strong RF in shack you are "safer" with wireless as you will not have to worry about Ethernet cables acting as RF antennas. As I side note a big benefit of wireless is it seems very resistant to lightening strike damage. I took a bad hit a few years ago and while it strangely did not take out any ham equipment it took out several computers, a network printer,  a router and a switch. Wireless device I had were not effected. It seems that the Ethernet cable collect the EMP pulse of a lightening strike and take out devices connected to it. 
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All posted wireless using Win 8.1 RT, a Android tablet using 4G/LTE/WiFi or Sprint Note 3.
K8AC
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Posts: 1477




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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 06:23:00 AM »

My DSL modem sits behind the rig, with the wireless router about 3 feet above on a shelf.  I ended up using shielded ethernet cable between the modem and router to eliminate interference to the router and/or modem from my KW 160 meter signal.  Also had to install a commercial filter on the phone line where it enters the DSL modem to keep it from dropping out from my KW on 160 and 80.  Never had any problems with my G level wireless network after installing the shielded ethernet cables.  If you're concerned about the performance of a wireless link to your PC from your broadband connection compared to an ethernet connection, you can prove to yourself that's not a problem by using one of the speed measurement sites on the web.  I use this site: www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ .  It'll tell you your download and upload speeds and you can compare the wireless and ethernet connections.  I see the same performance here on both wireless and ethernet.  I suppose if your PC were on the fringe of the wireless coverage area from your wireless router, you might see a lesser speed with wireless.
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K7NHB
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Posts: 226




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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 06:39:13 PM »

Thank you. That eases my concern about interference and throughput. I'd only run at most 100W and I do have a 12mbps cable modem connection (in Bend Oregon we have a 60 mbps option!).  The modem and wireless router is upstairs and I'm trying to stream internet video to a computer/tv downstairs but that's another issue. Upstairs I didn't want the TX to interfere with the internet and i didn't want the internet, via wireless or ethernet, to cause more static on the RX.

73,
Paul
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K4FH
Member

Posts: 52




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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 12:43:59 PM »

I have a noise problem with my Ethernet.  Originally I thought that it was cheap switches so I consolidated them all into one Cisco 2900.  The long runs radiate noise mostly in multiple places of the 20M band.  I've put chokes on them but I need more. 

In my experience, Ethernet can produce more interference.
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WK5H
Member

Posts: 111




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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 07:18:02 AM »

In my experience, I haven't found an ethernet switch one that doesn't cause "birdies".  Worst thing in my house is my Dish DVR when plugged into the ethernet.  There are some nights I just have to go unplug the ethernet cable from it just to hear.  Second worse offender was a network printer.

I tried everything from top of the line shielded ethernet cable, grounding, beads, and nothing worked, and still to this day, I have to go unplug the ethernet cable from the DVR.  Noisy little sucker...
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W8JX
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Posts: 6078




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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 09:34:27 AM »

In my experience, I haven't found an ethernet switch one that doesn't cause "birdies".  Worst thing in my house is my Dish DVR when plugged into the ethernet.  There are some nights I just have to go unplug the ethernet cable from it just to hear.  Second worse offender was a network printer.

I tried everything from top of the line shielded ethernet cable, grounding, beads, and nothing worked, and still to this day, I have to go unplug the ethernet cable from the DVR.  Noisy little sucker...

My house has been wired with Ethernet for many many years and has a dual band wireless router, and aux access point, 2 extra switches/hubs and there is a total of 6 desktop and 5 laptops tha operate on this network from time to time. I have three network printers and all but one laptop is wireless and all but one desktop is wired and I have yet to have the first problem or birdee traced to it. My antenna is 175 feet from house though.
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All posted wireless using Win 8.1 RT, a Android tablet using 4G/LTE/WiFi or Sprint Note 3.
LU2DFM
Member

Posts: 91




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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 05:12:26 AM »

Ethernet cable should not be the cause of noise in HF captured by the outdoor antenna, except maybe if you have a long run of CAT5 parallel to the antenna or a similar configuration which close couple both.

I have a somewhat extensive Ethernet cabling in my house and it's impossible to discern a change in the level noise here in the shack with an internal telescopic or ferrite-loop antenna and a portable receiver when computers are running with the switches off and Ethernet cable disconnected, versus all of it running in normal condition.

Although computer noise level is kept to a minimum, my conclusion is whatever the Ethernet noise level is, it's level is masked by the noise the computers produces.

However, equipment associated with networking (switches, routers, modems, APs, etc.) *could* be very noisy: most modern electronic equipment in this class have one to several switching PS (internal/external switching principal PS, sometimes a brick,  plus internal CC converters). Those PS could be _very_ noisy and poorly designed Ethernet transformers could couple common mode NOISE currents into the cabling, which will perform as an antenna and will radiate that noise. However is possible to "cure" with shielded cable or installing ferrite chokes, the most effective way is to remove the offending equipment and replace it for quiet units.

I've found that small (4 to 8 ports) or cheap switches have a noticeable level of RFI (HF). I prefer professional equipment (16/24/48 ports) of recognized brand, with internal PS and metal cabinet. Those can be acquired at convenience price used. Their only disadvantage is 
that they are bulky.

73 de Fer
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 6078




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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 09:26:08 AM »

Something to consider too is that wireless is a lot more resistant to lightning strikes than Ethernet. I took a big hit over 2 years ago and my damage was primarily from EMP pulse from a very near strike. I got picked up by several runs of Ethernet and took my server (toast) and took NCs in several others, took out switch and router too. It also took out my two network printers that were wired. THe remaining printer that was wireless was un-effected as were wireless computers. When I rebuilt I moved all printers wireless and a few extra computers (and will make more wireless in future) After upgrade I took another hit almost same time a year later and all new wireless stuff survived. It damaged a few NIC;s in wired computers and that was it. Never lost any ham gear in any strike.
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All posted wireless using Win 8.1 RT, a Android tablet using 4G/LTE/WiFi or Sprint Note 3.
N9RO
Member

Posts: 124


WWW

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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 02:04:35 PM »

You pose an interesting question; I have been running all wireless for years and never had any problem.  So I set out to prove it, I started a large transfer between two PCs on my LAN and while running a sniffer trace watched for any retransmissions while I transmitted at full power using the closes antenna I had.  No retransmissions at all.  The best way to check for any type of LAN problem is with a sniffer tool you can see everything that is taking place and know how each bit is acting.  There is a bit of a learning curve but this is the only good way to know how you’re impacting your LAN this goes for wireless or wired.

73, Tim
www.N9RO.com
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Real techies don't use knobs.
W8JX
Member

Posts: 6078




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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 07:29:16 PM »

I cannot see HF impacting WiFi because of the band it operates at but microwave ovens and some cordless phones can give it a hard time.
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All posted wireless using Win 8.1 RT, a Android tablet using 4G/LTE/WiFi or Sprint Note 3.
WB4BYQ
Member

Posts: 179




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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 08:13:06 PM »

The FCC part 15 rule the way that I read it from some manuals that I have from work, when running ethernet in a residential area requires shield cat 5 type cable.  the problem that i have run into is that some routers/switches for home type use do not have the metal rj-45 jacks in the equipment for grounding.  i have fixed some or reduced the rfi from 100 MB unshielded cat 5 cable by using type 43 half inch snap on ferrite, by wrapping the cat 5 at least 3 turns at each end of the cable, keeping the cable outside the core spaced apart from each winding.  also, i have attached two of the cores at each in to really reduce the common mode currents. this must be done at each piece of equipment.  this does not seem to effect the speed of the cable.  the best fix that i have found is to reduce the speed from 100 to 10 and the birdies go away.  the birdies were at 14.089,  14.151,  14.211,  14.274, and 14.335 at 100 MB ethernet.  wireless will not have these problems, unless you use cat 5 cable somewhere.

Richard
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AA4HA
Member

Posts: 1489




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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 05:45:31 PM »

I too had my house wired for Ethernet while it was being built... Really, I wired it myself (took a weekend before they put up the drywall).

I used Cat 5e (6 was not out yet), and installed more than 1000' of Ethernet cable. There are 24 junction boxes (4-6 per room, 1 in the kitchen, two in hallways). At the same time I also installed 500 feet of duplex multi-mode 62.5/125 fiber optic to each junction box and two shielded audio cables for speakers or DC power. Everything runs to under the stairs on the first floor. There are Ethernet patchbays and RCA connections for the shielded audio cable. I have not terminated the fiber optic under the stairs but did install SC connectors at the junction boxes.

In the past eight years I have "lost" three 24 port Ethernet switches due to lightning. The worst runs are those near the chimney where that lightning rod takes the hits (I take a lightning strike on the house 4-5 times a year since I live on a mountaintop). I have installed Ethernet surge protectors (e x p e n s i v e) on the most vulnerable drops or those connected to my "real" computers (Sun E4000). Several Ethernet cards have bit the dust but I have only lost one computer totally due to lighting and that came in through the USB mouse cable (EMP).

Gradually I will migrate everything to multimode fiber. I am actually in the process of terminating the fiber runs to the radio room right now (have Black Box fiber to Ethernet converters) that run off of my 24 volt radio console supply and batteries.

It turned out that I really do not want speakers all over the house so I am converting those shielded two wire circuits to 12 volt fixtures for LED and EL panel lighting.

If I had to do it again I would have not installed the Ethernet cable and just used the fiber optics but 8 years ago the media converters and cards for the computers were very expensive. There is one fiber run active right now for the E4000 to a pair of redundant FC/AL drive arrays so it is not conventional Ethernet.

I do quite a bit of Ethernet to radio systems (900 MHz FHSS, some microwave with IDU/ODU setups and Ethernet running up the tower). You can find shielded Ethernet cable and Ethernet ends that have a metal cover that allows the cable shield to tie into your device. In many commercial comm site installations the Ethernet is pulled through EMT conduit (even short runs of a few feet) where the EMT is bonded to the equipment racks and overhead wire raceways.

Most likely your biggest problem is going to the the EMI/RFI that comes out of your computer or from the other "junk" attached to your Ethernet (DSL modems, satellite receiver boxes, printers, etc...).

Oh, Ferrites are your friend but they will not perform miracles.

Hope that helps some,
Tisha Hayes
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Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
W6MQI
Member

Posts: 32




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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 10:18:48 AM »

HF transmit will not effect wireless at all which operates at 2.3 ghz.

Not 100% true due to an antenna in close proximity of the shack HF transmissions would shut down my wireless system all the time I eventually switch over to cat5 cable and problem solved. I also moved the antenna to a better location so life is now good.

73 
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 6078




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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 03:12:41 PM »

HF transmit will not effect wireless at all which operates at 2.3 ghz.

Not 100% true due to an antenna in close proximity of the shack HF transmissions would shut down my wireless system all the time I eventually switch over to cat5 cable and problem solved. I also moved the antenna to a better location so life is now good.

73 

It is not getting into 2.3 ghz directly and is likely swamping IF in router.  I have never had a problem and i have been using wireless for close to 10 years now.
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All posted wireless using Win 8.1 RT, a Android tablet using 4G/LTE/WiFi or Sprint Note 3.
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