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Author Topic: cc&r's and hoa's  (Read 18309 times)
WB2WIK
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 03:48:51 PM »

Taxes vary a lot in most places.  Not much here in California, since we have Proposition 13 which mandates that taxes paid are based entirely on assessed value of the home.  But I've lived places -- lots of them -- where that wasn't the case at all, and tax rates varies from municipality to municipality.  I lived in NJ for many years where you could have two identical homes and properties across the street from each other paying hugely different tax rates because the street was a municipal dividing line.

I like our system better, it's fairer and more predictable.
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N2EY
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 05:43:50 AM »

Taxes vary a lot in most places.  Not much here in California, since we have Proposition 13 which mandates that taxes paid are based entirely on assessed value of the home.

That's how it is everywhere I've lived or looked. The catch is how realistic the assessed value is. Often the assessments are all over the place. 

But I've lived places -- lots of them -- where that wasn't the case at all, and tax rates varies from municipality to municipality.  I lived in NJ for many years where you could have two identical homes and properties across the street from each other paying hugely different tax rates because the street was a municipal dividing line.

Yep. I've also seen where the home prices were quite different for the same reason. Around here, the school district is a big factor. We don't have a system such as the LA Unified, so you can move across the street and have to send the kids to a completely different school miles from the one they were going to.

I like our system better, it's fairer and more predictable.

Or is it?

From what I've read, you have that same situation in California, only for different reasons.

From wikipedia:

"Section 1. (a) The maximum amount of any ad valorem tax on real property shall not exceed one percent (1%) of the full cash value of such property. The one percent (1%) tax to be collected by the counties and apportioned according to law to the districts within the counties.

The proposition decreased property taxes by assessing property values at their 1975 value and restricted annual increases of assessed value of real property to an inflation factor, not to exceed 2% per year."

IOW, everything was fair and equal in 1975 - 36 years ago.

But now watch this:

"It also prohibited reassessment of a new base year value except for (a) change in ownership or (b) completion of new construction."

What this means is that two identical homes can have radically different RE taxes because one has changed hands several times, while the other has not. Or because one made a small addition and the other didn't.

During times when RE prices are rising rapidly, homes that sell bear an unequal burden of RE tax increase, because *they* get reassessed at the new, higher values. This penalizes those who move.

Meanwhile, the folks who don't move are guaranteed that their RE taxes will not increase more than 2% per year.

After 35 years of that, the actual taxes paid are all over the place.

On top of that, the absolute 2% increase limit means that, in times of rapidly rising costs, taxes may not be able to rise to keep up with costs, and the state either goes into debt or slashes services.

This is one big reason for California's budget crises.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2011, 01:01:54 PM »

Yep. I've also seen where the home prices were quite different for the same reason. Around here, the school district is a big factor. We don't have a system such as the LA Unified, so you can move across the street and have to send the kids to a completely different school miles from the one they were going to.

I know, and of course that is not the case here.  You can move anywhere within LAUSD and stay at the same school if you wish; or if you don't like your most local school for some reason, you can pick a different one provided you have a way to get there.


Quote
After 35 years of that, the actual taxes paid are all over the place.

Not really.  The system is fair in that people who bought 35 years ago and stayed put are likely to now be on fixed income and couldn't possibly afford to pay taxes on the house they're already in if they sold it back to themselves at current market price.  I think it's very fair, because they shouldn't have to.

Quote
On top of that, the absolute 2% increase limit means that, in times of rapidly rising costs, taxes may not be able to rise to keep up with costs, and the state either goes into debt or slashes services.

This is one big reason for California's budget crises.


It's one reason, but I think a very small one.  NJ, TX and lots of states with millions of people in them have similar or worse budget crises without Prop 13.  Our real crisis here is due to decades of overspending, no oversight on almost anything, the CALPERS system which has allowed government workers to retire with pensions equivalent to their full pay based on how much they made in their last year of employment (which is almost always the highest paid year of all); as well as an amazing state healthcare plan MEDICAL which has paid most medical expenses for most residents of age (considerably more than MEDICARE does) for decades; the biggest and possibly best state University system in the country, which for many years charged absolutely no fees at all for in-state students to attend "top 100 in the country" level universities (and is still free to this day for low-income residents)...and lots of stuff.

Nobody was watching the balance sheet for 40 years.
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KF5GWN
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 07:54:49 AM »

I am fortunate enough to live in a subdivision built about 20 years ago and there's no HOA.

Nearby there is a nice city park with a swimming pool, tennis courts, basketball courts, softball and soccer fields, playgrounds and walking trails.  We have trash and recycling pickup, Christmas tree recycling, we are within walking distance to award winning schools, and best of all no neighbors who can tell me I can't put up antennas.  Oh yeah, we have police protection too.

All this for $0 additional per month.  I'll pass on HOAs.

Vince

And what do you pay in city taxes per year?  Any "user fee's" to reserve those fields?
Lots of governments are cutting back on services because of budget shortfalls including laying off police officers.  I don't have to worry about that. And since I have no intention of putting up any big antennas, I am quite happy with my situation.   

AND you still pay the city taxes whether or not you are in an HOA.
Yes, if you are in the city.  But if we accept the position that the HOA actually depresses home values then the HOA is also resulting in me paying lower property taxes due to my assessment vs an unrestricted home.  And depending on how the exemptions are set up the higher assessment on the unrestricted home could actually have you paying more than double in property taxes than the HOA house assessed at 50% the unrestricted home's value.  So that would mean that unrestricted home owner is paying twice as much to the city or county or state for services ( including those they don't use) than the HOA home owner who gets those exact same services.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 07:56:52 AM by KF5GWN » Logged
W9CW
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 12:35:44 PM »

I wish we had a Prop. 13 here in IL.  My property taxes have quadrupled in less than 15 years, and that's in a state that may be 2nd only to CA is indebtedness, and is even worse off than NJ.  Plus, we just had a 66% state income tax increase in November, and they immediately increased spending!  For example, the State of Illinois owes the flagship state land grant university (University of Illinois) over $450 Million on "last" year's fiscal year, based upon the university's annual budget of $4.8 Billion. 
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 01:51:23 PM »

I wish we had a Prop. 13 here in IL.  My property taxes have quadrupled in less than 15 years, and that's in a state that may be 2nd only to CA is indebtedness, and is even worse off than NJ.  Plus, we just had a 66% state income tax increase in November, and they immediately increased spending!  For example, the State of Illinois owes the flagship state land grant university (University of Illinois) over $450 Million on "last" year's fiscal year, based upon the university's annual budget of $4.8 Billion. 

The biggest drain on our budget here in CA is retirement benefits paid to retired and disabled state workers, including teachers, police/fire, administrators, and on and on and on.  It's absolutely huge.  We have the biggest state University system in the country by far, but interestingly,

"Philanthropic support: The state supplied 47% of the University's budget in 1991-92 and today its contribution comes to less than 20%. Private support is increasingly critical to preserving Berkeley's excellence. Alumni, parents, and friends of the campus contributed $313.1 million in gifts and pledges in the 2009-10 fiscal year to support students, faculty, and research. There were gifts and pledges from 56,800 donors."

That's just one example, from U.C. Berkeley: http://berkeley.edu/about/fact.shtml

They can claim this:

   " * Sources of private funds, 2009-10: (Source: Jose Rodriguez)
          o Alumni, parents, faculty, staff & friends: 44.5%
          o Foundations: 32.5%
          o Corporations: 14.4%
          o Campus-related organizations: 0.3%
          o Other sources: 8.3%

Market value of endowment: $2.6 billion (June 2010)."

Of course, they can also claim this: http://berkeley.edu/about/honors.shtml

All the U.C.'s have similar honors.

The primary cost of education here isn't the problem.  The secondary cost is, when people start retiring and getting benefits unlike anything regular people get, no matter how hard they worked, nor for how long.

As people live to be older (not difficult when you're collecting over $100K annually in retirement benefits paid by the State), the "sucking sound" just gets louder.
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W9CW
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2011, 05:21:11 PM »

Public sector retirement is exactly the major source of Illinois' budget problems too.  I live in an area with an abundance of retired University of Illinois academics and staff, and their retirement is amazing.

I totally understand how top notch the California education system is, especially the University system, having lived there.  But, we here "out in the sticks of the Midwest" or the "fly over zone" also have a fine university system too.  Pay close attention to the number of Nobel laureates from the University of Illinois, for example.  This is old data from 2007.

As of 2007, 21 alumni and faculty members are Nobel laureates and 20 have won a Pulitzer Prize.  In particular, John Bardeen is the only person to have won two Nobel prizes in physics, having done so in 1956 and 1972 while on faculty at the University of Illinois. In 2003, two faculty members won Nobel prizes in different disciplines: Paul C. Lauterbur (MRI) for physiology or medicine, and Anthony Leggett for physics. Most recently, in 2007, Don Wuebbles, Atul Jain, John Walsh and Michael Schlesinger, professors in the Department of Atmospheric Science, were awarded a share of the Nobel Peace Prize for their contributions and collaboration with the IPCC.

Alumni have created companies and products such as Netscape Communications, AMD, PayPal, Playboy, National Football League, Siebel Systems, Mortal Kombat, CDW, YouTube, THX, Oracle, Lotus, Mosaic, Safari, Firefox, W. W. Grainger, Delta Air Lines, BET, and Tesla Motors to name a few.  Alumni and faculty have invented the LED, MRI, integrated circuit (Jack Kilby), quantum well laser, transistor, MRI, and Plasma screen...and, the web browser - Mosaic - was written here, the basis for a number of browsers, Eudora, et. al.

I have no desire to start a comparison match between universities, only to simply illustrate there are many fine university systems here in the USA.
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KJ4VTH
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 08:16:27 PM »

Not sure where we're going with all this.   We'd rather have mediocre schools and big radio towers?   Huh
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2011, 09:02:35 AM »

Not sure where we're going with all this.   We'd rather have mediocre schools and big radio towers?   Huh

I'd rather have good schools and the ability to do what I wish with my property provided there's no direct impact on the health and welfare of my community.
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WS4E
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2011, 09:44:39 AM »

>Socialism, by definition, is when the government owns and runs things.

I thought that was communism.

From what I remember the difference is that socialism is where the government CONTROLS the means of production, and communism is where the government OWNS the means of production.


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N2EY
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2011, 10:16:23 AM »

>Socialism, by definition, is when the government owns and runs things.

I thought that was communism.

Nope.

Communism is when everyone ("the people") owns and runs things collectively - without the government. The workers control the means of production.

Note that although the USSR was run by the "Communist" party, the country's name was the Union of Soviet *Socialist* Republics. The Government owned and ran almost everything. Supposedly, socialism was a "temporary" step  between czarism and communism, but it lasted many decades. Some things worked very well, others not so well.

From what I remember the difference is that socialism is where the government CONTROLS the means of production, and communism is where the government OWNS the means of production.

Nope. Because in that case there's no difference. What does it mean to own something if you don't control it? And if you control something, don't you really own it, for all practical purposes?

Here's an example of communism:

Imagine a company 100% owned by the workers. They all have a say in how the company is run and all share in the profits - and losses. And if someone wants to work there, they have to buy a share in the company. If a person leaves the company, their share is bought back by the others.

Kind of like a partnership - share and share alike. There are probably more "communist" companies in the USA than most people realize; they just avoid the word because of the baggage it carries. Consider the classic mom-and-pop grocery store, or a small law firm in which all of the employees are partners, or a co-op building where the residents all own the building jointly.


Here's an example of socialism:

The interstate highway system. Owned, built, maintained and run by The Government. Paid for by taxes and tolls.
 
73 de Jim, N2EY
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GRADY
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2011, 04:59:49 AM »

Here in the Oklahoma City metro area, most HOAs are upper end houses, new construction or otherwise. It just happened to turn out at the time we bought our current home, 5 years ago, the house we liked the most was in a HOA. However, we only pay $50 a year dues.  I have applied to be on the Architectural Committee as they have asked for volunteers. Here, $200K will get you about a 2000 sq ft nice home. I dont think the logic of HOA homes are less expensive than non HOA homes will hold water. Typically here the new construction sub $150K homes are done by a developer looking to turn houses fast, no restrictions, etc. At about $175K and up, you start hitting HOAs.
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KF5KZX just the new guy on the block!
WB2WIK
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2011, 08:30:47 AM »

Here in the Oklahoma City metro area, most HOAs are upper end houses, new construction or otherwise. It just happened to turn out at the time we bought our current home, 5 years ago, the house we liked the most was in a HOA. However, we only pay $50 a year dues.  I have applied to be on the Architectural Committee as they have asked for volunteers. Here, $200K will get you about a 2000 sq ft nice home. I dont think the logic of HOA homes are less expensive than non HOA homes will hold water. Typically here the new construction sub $150K homes are done by a developer looking to turn houses fast, no restrictions, etc. At about $175K and up, you start hitting HOAs.

That may be the case there, but I think it's unusual from my own experience.

Deed restrictions (CC&Rs) make it easier for developers to get permits and financing to build, and as far as I know that's the main reason they are invoked.  HOAs are created (sometimes the developer "is" the HOA at first, until one formed by owners can be created) mostly to enforce the invoked restrictions, and have an operating budget to spend on maintenance of the common grounds, if there are any.

Here in the L.A. area, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of neighborhoods where the average home price is over a million dollars, even in the recession -- they used to be higher.  In many of these, there aren't any restrictions any more stringent than the standard municipal zoning ordinance.  But in the less costly "tract" developments, most new construction has a lot of restrictions and HOAs to enforce them.
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WD4HXG
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2011, 02:08:54 PM »

Here in Virginia I recall that a builder constructing more than five homes per year is required to set up an HOA to comply with State Statutes. Builders doing onesy, twosys tend to be quite a bit more expensive also because they normally build on one plus acre lots, and have to earn their annual income on five or less homes which means low cost homes don't pay their annual salary. In the Virginia suburbs of DC, a one acre lot is not normally going to be a cheap item, so the builder is not likely to build a cheap house on it.  The cards are pretty well stacked here. The county has a 2:1 setback so the average single family dwelling in Cookie Cutterville on a 0.25 acre lot is likely to be restricted to 20 feet or less by the county. Heap on the HOA's and matters get tougher. Short of being a Firestone or duPont you don't stand a chance of a snowball in double toothpick land of getting any serious metal up in the air.

Amateurs are simply a minority and will be treated as such.
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NA4M
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2011, 09:20:15 AM »

i have seen many arguments for hoa's existence. the biggest and most prominent one being to protect house values.

Good question.   Is there any concrete factual evidence based on wide scale data that HOA's are responsible for maintaining or enhancing property values?   

In the same vein I wonder if there's any concrete factual data that amateur towers & antennas can be responsible for degrading property values?

Not just anecdotal examples but based on factual wide scale data.


   
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