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Author Topic: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?  (Read 6293 times)
W1IT
Member

Posts: 174




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« on: May 21, 2011, 12:07:26 PM »

 Wink

I am always amazed by how some people, which seems to be growing, have not a clue about reasonable separation of transmissions as a physical bandwidth requirement.

For example, operating on 40 meters and suddenly having a station move within one or two kilohertz, usually in my passband, and call CQ or relocate a qso booted off from some other frequency.

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

A station inside another's passband is not splattering nor am I if you move inside that boundary.

I have often thought with shoes dropping and lesser qualified operators, the final solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB. Most now do this by convention, however that choice might be engineered out of the next generation of dumbed down ham transceivers.

It might in fact conserve band space and prevent a lot of brush fires.

I might also say, no NET owns a frequency anymore than any two or more stations in QSO do. Read Part 97.
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K9FON
Member

Posts: 1012




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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 12:28:03 PM »

Yup, blame the no coders. Its always their fault right? No coders and newer hams never do anything right, right???
Heres a quarter go pi** and moan to someone who cares!!!
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K3DCW
Member

Posts: 218




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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 12:36:27 PM »

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

There is no requirement for 3 kHz separation, just like there is no requirement for 3 kHz of bandwidth in a SSB transmission.  Many hams run a lot smaller bandwidth.  You are just used to the greater dynamic range offered by the 3 kHz bandwidth.

Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth.  Many contesters use 2.4kHz or even as small as 1.8kHz to get their signal out just that much better.  True, it isn't the best dynamic range, but it get's the job done and allows for more congestion on the bands. 

That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someone's passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave
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Hamming it up on OS X!
www.machamradio.com
W7ETA
Member

Posts: 2527




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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 01:14:06 PM »

Was the same way in the late 70s when I got my General ticket.

People complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

When we got the New Bands, no contests allowed on them, people complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

People complained about nets starting up on their frequency.

People complained that there was CW in their phone area.

People complained about appliance operators ruining the hobby.

People complained about multiple choice questions, dumming down the hobby.

People complained that other ops weren't operating their stations the way the complainer knew they should.

People complained about the use of Q-codes on phone.

People complained that The Russian Woodpecker took over a band (well.  At least that has changed!)

People complained that they had to learn CW even though they would never use it.

People complained about having to drive to an FCC office to take their test.

People complained about having to wait 30 days to retake a test.

People complained that a few years ago The League did something they didn't like. So.  They hated The League and would NEVER!! support them.

73
Bob
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 3926




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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 01:26:23 PM »

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

There is no requirement for 3 kHz separation, just like there is no requirement for 3 kHz of bandwidth in a SSB transmission.  Many hams run a lot smaller bandwidth. 

I think that may be the key to the problem.

Suppose Ham #1 is using a 3 kHz filter with relatively wide skirts - say a 2:1 shape factor. Ham #2 is using a 1.8 kHz filter with very sharp skirts - say a 1.5 to 1 shape factor.

Ham #1 will hear a much wider slice of the band than Ham #2. Meanwhile, Ham #2 can get quite close to another QSO without hearing it.

Do you see the problem?

73 de Jim, N2EY

and a "Me too!" to what Bob, W7ETA said.


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W1IT
Member

Posts: 174




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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2011, 01:30:41 PM »

Using well adjusted sideband transmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.


Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth. 
That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someones passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave

Dave, all good points. The solution which isn't going to happen, isn't greater operator competency. Its designing radios that can't be used in certain ways.
We should realize in a lot of the world the power limits are more than 6 db (one s unit ) below ours.
That would stop a lot of the tresspassing and interference.

Do you think that likely? No, me either.
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KB0OXD
Member

Posts: 47


WWW

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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2011, 02:24:17 PM »

Was the same way in the late 70s when I got my General ticket.

People complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

When we got the New Bands, no contests allowed on them, people complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

People complained about nets starting up on their frequency.

People complained that there was CW in their phone area.

People complained about appliance operators ruining the hobby.

People complained about multiple choice questions, dumming down the hobby.

People complained that other ops weren't operating their stations the way the complainer knew they should.

People complained about the use of Q-codes on phone.

People complained that The Russian Woodpecker took over a band (well.  At least that has changed!)

People complained that they had to learn CW even though they would never use it.

People complained about having to drive to an FCC office to take their test.

People complained about having to wait 30 days to retake a test.

People complained that a few years ago The League did something they didn't like. So.  They hated The League and would NEVER!! support them.

73
Bob
People also complained when the No-Code Technician license came out, saying that it would turn Ham Radio into the next CB.  Guess who's doing that NOW.....  Angry

Cheers & 73  Grin

Pat
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Pat Cook, KB0OXD
Englewood, CO
WEBSITE | TWITTER | FACEBOOK | APRS TRACKER
KE3WD
Member

Posts: 5689




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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 02:54:16 PM »

Sounds like someone ought to spend the money on the filter...   Shocked
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K0OD
Member

Posts: 2591




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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 02:59:03 PM »

Quote
solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB.

Or QSY to a very dead 60 meter band that has channels (at least in the U.S.), all USB by law.
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K3DCW
Member

Posts: 218




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 04:00:51 PM »

Using well adjusted sideband transmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.


Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth. 
That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someones passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave

Dave, all good points. The solution which isn't going to happen, isn't greater operator competency. Its designing radios that can't be used in certain ways.
We should realize in a lot of the world the power limits are more than 6 db (one s unit ) below ours.
That would stop a lot of the tresspassing and interference.

Do you think that likely? No, me either.


No, not likely. 
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Hamming it up on OS X!
www.machamradio.com
K9FON
Member

Posts: 1012




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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 10:39:28 AM »

I've always thought ham radio was a hobby someting to have as something to have fun with and not get all bent out of shape about. I guess if one doesnt like what he/she hears one can always just shut off the radio and walk away! I dont let the crap and bad ops stress me out.
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AA4HA
Member

Posts: 1646




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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2011, 03:52:46 PM »

I've always thought ham radio was a hobby someting to have as something to have fun with and not get all bent out of shape about. I guess if one doesnt like what he/she hears one can always just shut off the radio and walk away! I dont let the crap and bad ops stress me out.
Agreed, life is too short.

Tisha
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Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
MAGNUM257
Member

Posts: 159




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 06:56:03 PM »

Wink

I am always amazed by how some people, which seems to be growing, have not a clue about reasonable separation of transmissions as a physical bandwidth requirement.

For example, operating on 40 meters and suddenly having a station move within one or two kilohertz, usually in my passband, and call CQ or relocate a qso booted off from some other frequency.

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

A station inside another's passband is not splattering nor am I if you move inside that boundary.

I have often thought with shoes dropping and lesser qualified operators, the final solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB. Most now do this by convention, however that choice might be engineered out of the next generation of dumbed down ham transceivers.

It might in fact conserve band space and prevent a lot of brush fires.

I might also say, no NET owns a frequency anymore than any two or more stations in QSO do. Read Part 97.

Did you ever consider the fact that they may not know that you are one khz above or below them? Just because you can hear them doesn't mean they can hear you? But you already know that because you are a knowledgeable radio operator, right?  I would bet that most of the time it is NOT intentional,.
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KG4YMC
Member

Posts: 297




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 09:04:43 PM »

I"M curious,would he also be complaining about the 30 meter band, ? it is the one with channels? I don't have a radio for it .HOW is that working out? yea, channnels is a great idea, worked for cb didn't it ? what planet are you on?  My radio is almost 30 years old, and have to problem with slectivity if someone is operating ok , I also have a filter between my ears called a brain, and  a good listener shouln't have a problem with some splatter, I am sure my ten watts splatters all over the band, get real ...  I'll conceed some foreign stations can splatter a lot , but like they say, don't stress out, turn the dial, chill out , regroup or read e ham for a laugh .   by the way, looked on the internet, they still sell geritol, take a swig and chill out ha ha . kg4ymc
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W3LK
Member

Posts: 5639




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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2011, 12:40:36 PM »

I"M curious,would he also be complaining about the 30 meter band, ? it is the one with channels?

No, 30m is not channelized; 60m is.
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