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Author Topic: Shorty Forty v Active antenna  (Read 3944 times)
KK4FQL
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« on: December 21, 2011, 07:29:16 AM »

Hi Folks!! Need a little advice from hams more experienced than myself. I have a QRP 5 watt 40m cw transciever. Live in a second floor condo on the central west coast of Florida. Restrictions only allow inside antennas. I could build a Shorty Forty and put it along the ceiling in a 16'x11'  ???NW exposure room, buy or build a active telescoping antenna kit and put in the window of the same room, or buy an actice loop antenna and do the same. These are the only options I've been able to come up with. I realize that none are as good as a dipole outside but we live within our restrictions. Any advice from anyone? Huh
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K8GU
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 09:49:56 AM »

Put something outside if at all possible.  Can you do anything with very thin wire (26- to 30-ga magnet wire or #26 PolyStealth) stretched out to a tree?  Even if you have to end-feed a long-wire against a counterpoise it's going to be a lot better than anything you can put inside.

I don't understand the options you describe:

A "shorty-forty" usually refers to a shortened 2-element 40-meter Yagi, which doesn't sound like it will fit in your condo!  An "active" antenna  refers to a receive-only antenna that operates as a voltage (usually) probe with a small amplifier at the base of the probe.  It would not be suitable for transmitting.

Good luck!
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 10:14:17 AM »

A "shorty 40" is a coil-loaded dipole, something like half of normal length.

As K8GU mentioned, an "active" antenna is for receiving only.

The last time I lived in a second-story apartment that was the top floor, so I climbed up on
the roof in the middle of the night and tucked a long wire under the shingles with one end
dropping down into my window.  You might not have that option, however.

There are lots of types of indoor antennas you can try - performance depends heavily on
the type of materials used in constructing the building.  Stucco walls, for example, contain
a layer of metal screen (as does some reinforced concrete) that does a pretty good job of
blocking RF.  Every apartment is different, so you really have to experiment to see what
works best in your situation.

A loaded dipole of some sort strung across the ceiling is one possibility.  The resonant frequency
will shift due to the proximity to the walls, electrical wiring, etc.  The longer you can get it the
better - one possibility is to drill a small hole through the wall near the ceiling to pass it between
rooms.  If you can manage a circumference of about 120' (30' on a side of a square) then feeding
it as a loop might work.  Otherwise, a simple approach is to bend the ends around a bit and put
a big loading coil at the feedpoint:  by adjusting the taps on the coil for both the coax and the
antenna (or, my favorite, using some extra turns of wire wrapped around the coil to connect to
the coax) you should be able to get a good match.  Performance depends on the effective length
of the antenna and, of course, the environment it is in.

Something you can stick out the window, or assemble temporarily on a balcony (if you have one)
is likely to be a better solution because it gets the radiator outside the building.  One approach is
to use an antenna that looks like an acceptable device such as a flag pole.  In one apartment I
used a mobile whip stuck horizontally out of a second story window and fed against the aluminum
window frame as a ground.  (All the window frames in the whole building were bonded together.)
If you don't have such a good ground plane available, then you may need to use one or two quarter
wave radial wires strung around the baseboards of your condo as best you can for a ground.

Whether you use a telescoping fiberglass fishing rod, golf ball retriever pole, mobile whip, or some
sort of commercial antenna for this is a matter of personal preference and local circumstances.

Of course, a thin "invisible" wire out the window to a tree is even better, but isn't always practical.
At one townhouse we tossed a wire over the roof and brought it inside the windows on both sides
of the building to form a loop.

Another option that may work well, especially for the higher bands, is a "magnetic loop" antenna.
These are more commonly available for 20m - 10m and have a very narrow operating bandwidth,
usually requiring a remote control tuning mechanism, but you might manage a 40m loop like this:

http://www.alexloop.com/index.html
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KQ6Q
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 12:36:33 PM »

5 watts on 40m with any kind of indoor antenna will be an exercise in frustration for you. Recommend getting a battery and making a plain wire dipole (or get creative with tape measures from Harbor Freight) and go to a park, and string up a full size dipole between trees. You will make some contacts that way.
If you want to be QRP indoors, use 15m or 10m where you can put up a full size dipole in your apartment. If this sounds like you'll starting needing several radios.... you're right, that's why multiband QRP's are popular. for $200 or less, look for a used Argonaut 505 or 509, or Century 21, or a Heath HW-8.

Good luck, and remember, you're doing this to have fun!

Fred, KQ6Q
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WX7G
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 04:43:51 PM »

If the building is of wood construction an indoor antenna can work quite well. I've operated from several such apartments at QRP levels. A full size 40 meter dipole bent to fit in the apartment and with the match touched up with a tuner can work well. Give it a try.
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VA3AEX
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 08:16:44 AM »

Previous sort term QTH was on the 3rd floor of 12 storey building made of reinforced concrete.  Lots of local noise sources meant I had minimum +S9 noise on HF when trying out various indoor dipoles and verticals.  I even tried tossing a wire out the window at night and reeling it back in before daylight...still +S9 noise.  A homebrewed magnetic loop brought the noise level down significantly but by that point I'd limited my activities to VHF/UHF, and was only listening on HF.

Suggest that the magnetic loop might you best solution.  At QRP levels you won't need an expensive variable cap; and you can build it for either balcony mounting or indoor use.  Lots of ideas on the net; and I've seen some loops that were made to look like sculptures using thicker copper pipe sitting on a support that looks like an upside down ╥  (Pi) symbol.  Spray painted the same color it did look like a sculpture.

Good luck with your project!  de VA3AEX
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KB4QAA
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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 01:39:06 PM »

One more interpretation:  Jerry Sevek's experiment to build a roughly six foot tall vertical antenna with a huge capacitive hat and extensive radial system for 40m!

One other possibility is to put a loop around the ceiling perimeter of your top room.  Forget resonance, you are just trying to get the maximum amount of wire up.  This is quieter than a vertical.
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KA6KBC
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 09:51:55 PM »

Maybe try a Tak Tenna - Here is my Homebrew version - Please note this is a Compromise Antenna, but it can get you on the air.   Required space 30" X 25".

http://billbrwn.tripod.com/id3.html

http://www.taktenna.com/


Or Stealth Dipole ?    See my version below:

http://billbrwn.tripod.com/id29.html


73's - Bill - KA6KBC

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K5BJS
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 07:44:07 AM »

It looks like you're on the second floor of a three story condo.  Can you hear signals when you touch 30 feet (or thereabouts) of wire to the center conductor of your antenna jack?  The good news is, if signals are getting in, they should get out as well.  The bad news is, if signals aren't getting in, ...

Happy New Year and congrats on the new license by the way!
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KU2US
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 07:15:11 PM »

Try radiating your gutters if they are metal! My friend does and it really works and is the ultimate in stealth.
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