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Author Topic: Amateur radio is only for rich people  (Read 18827 times)
N2EY
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Posts: 3833




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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2012, 02:32:11 PM »

Communism hasn't worked in China that is why a free market economy was introduced there.

But is it really a "free market"?

Or is it a highly regulated and protected system? One designed to build up China's industry and infrastructure?

A free market economy brings with it a desire for freedom and democracy.
It is this desire, common amongst all the world's peoples, that will lead to the eventual downfall of the communist system in China.

Maybe.

How many political parties exist in China? How many opposition politicians have been elected?

Consider that "freedom" and "democracy" mean different things to different folks.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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K9AIM
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 05:16:43 PM »

Capitalism has outlasted it and has pushed civilization forward for the past 100 years.  We can argue about the fallibility of all man-made systems, including Capitalism, which too may have its day, but for the time being although imperfect, Capitalism is all we've got. I would prefer to make do with it than to set civilization back a 100 years! Wink 

Capitalism has certainly pushed us forward technologically to a staggering extent. 

Einstein once said: “Not until the creation and maintenance of decent conditions of life for all people are recognized and accepted as a common obligation of all people and all countries - not until then shall we, with a certain degree of justification, be able to speak of humankind as civilized.” 

I am not sure capitalism has Einstein's form of civility on its radar.  If it merely promotes acquisition and consumption of material wealth then it will not foster psychological or spiritual advancement at all, and may even be counterproductive. 

For capitalism to prosper, it needs to make sure it does not commit the self-destructive error of going too far.  100 years ago, when communities and companies were small enough that owners & CEO's saw front-line workers often and even interacted with them, the gap between incomes was not so astronomical as it is today.  Increasing the size of companies has enabled increasing profitability and productivity, but the benefits have been disproportionately claimed by those at the very, very top.  And they share little of the benefits they reap from the labor of all who work at their companies partly because the size of these companies allow them to be so far removed from the frontlines.  I believe it is the case that when u factor in the cost of living today, the average American worker makes LESS today than he did in the 1960's, despite considerable increases in productivity, while CEO's make 1000's of times more. 

Henry Ford once said that he wanted his workers well-paid enough to afford his product.  I am afraid that not enough capitalists have this wisdom any longer...   
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N2EY
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »

Capitalism has outlasted it and has pushed civilization forward for the past 100 years.  We can argue about the fallibility of all man-made systems, including Capitalism, which too may have its day, but for the time being although imperfect, Capitalism is all we've got. I would prefer to make do with it than to set civilization back a 100 years! Wink 

Capitalism has certainly pushed us forward technologically to a staggering extent. 

Has it?

Consider that the Soviets were the first in space - the first artificial satellite, the first animal in space, the first man in space, the first woman in space, the first pictures of the far side of the Moon....

Yes, we beat them to the Moon...in part because we had better German rocket engineers than they did, who learned rocketry building weapons for the Third Reich.

Note too that many of the technological advances were the result of government funded research and development, not private property/free market capitalism.

That computer you're looking at right now is a direct descendant of ENIAC, built during WW2 as a government project to figure out artillery aiming tables. The internet's true origin is of course DARPAnet. Interstate highways? Hoover Dam? The transcontinental railroad?


Einstein once said: “Not until the creation and maintenance of decent conditions of life for all people are recognized and accepted as a common obligation of all people and all countries - not until then shall we, with a certain degree of justification, be able to speak of humankind as civilized.” 

I am not sure capitalism has Einstein's form of civility on its radar.  If it merely promotes acquisition and consumption of material wealth then it will not foster psychological or spiritual advancement at all, and may even be counterproductive. 

Instead we have homeless people and peopleless homes.


For capitalism to prosper, it needs to make sure it does not commit the self-destructive error of going too far.  100 years ago, when communities and companies were small enough that owners & CEO's saw front-line workers often and even interacted with them, the gap between incomes was not so astronomical as it is today.  Increasing the size of companies has enabled increasing profitability and productivity, but the benefits have been disproportionately claimed by those at the very, very top.  And they share little of the benefits they reap from the labor of all who work at their companies partly because the size of these companies allow them to be so far removed from the frontlines.  I believe it is the case that when u factor in the cost of living today, the average American worker makes LESS today than he did in the 1960's, despite considerable increases in productivity, while CEO's make 1000's of times more.

Exactly. Think of why that is.
 
Henry Ford once said that he wanted his workers well-paid enough to afford his product.  I am afraid that not enough capitalists have this wisdom any longer...   

Ford was no saint, but he thought long-term. Today it's all about the short term.

73 de jim, N2EY
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EI4GMB
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Posts: 166




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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2012, 03:29:03 AM »

But is it really a "free market"?

Or is it a highly regulated and protected system? One designed to build up China's industry and infrastructure?

How many political parties exist in China? How many opposition politicians have been elected?

Consider that "freedom" and "democracy" mean different things to different folks.

Jim,

These all seem to be vices of the Communist system rather than virtues.
Capitalism is allowed flourish in China for the benefit of the privileged few in the Communist Party. No better and no worse than our own system of self interest government. It seems western capitalists are willing to play along, with no regard for the welfare of ordinary Chinese people.The difference is , is that people have no rights in China and are slaves  to their machines in industrial sweatshops, a throw-back to the serfdom that prevailed in other communist systems. Contrast that to the pay, conditions and freedoms we enjoy in our democratic societies. I think we are far better off in the western world than people will ever be in communist China.


« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:40:00 AM by EI4GMB » Logged

'You can never plan the future by the past'

'Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
N2EY
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Posts: 3833




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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2012, 04:01:52 AM »

But is it really a "free market"?

Or is it a highly regulated and protected system? One designed to build up China's industry and infrastructure?

How many political parties exist in China? How many opposition politicians have been elected?

Consider that "freedom" and "democracy" mean different things to different folks.

Jim,

These all seem to be vices of the Communist system rather than virtues.
Capitalism is allowed flourish in China for the benefit of the privileged few in the Communist Party.

The point is that China has become a world economic power in a very short time. They're becoming leaders in many fields despite not having "free market capitalism".

No better and no worse than our own system of self interest government. It seems western capitalists are willing to play along, with no regard for the welfare of ordinary Chinese people.

That's because they see short-term gain. There is more money to be made - in the short term, anyway - by outsourcing manufacturing than by doing it at home. That they are exporting jobs and wealth doesn't matter. 

The difference is , is that people have no rights in China and are slaves  to their machines in industrial sweatshops, a throw-back to the serfdom that prevailed in other communist systems.

It's also a throwback to how things were for workers in capitalist countries about 100-150 years ago. When the workers had no rights and
worked long hours in dangerous conditions for low wages. In mines, mills, factories, etc. 

 
Contrast that to the pay, conditions and freedoms we enjoy in our democratic societies. I think we are far better off in the western world than people will ever be in communist China.

I don't know what it's like where you are.

But in the USA, over the past several decades, I have watched industry after industry shut down and move "offshore" taking with it good jobs and know-how.

I have seen the unionized private-sector workforce drop from about 30% to about 7% of workers.

I have seen government debt climb and climb, driven by purposeless wars and tacx cuts for the top 1%.

I have seen families struggle to make ends meet because wages for "the 99%" have not kept pace with costs. I have seen it become necessary for both spouses in a family to work full-time in order to have a middle class life, for young people to take on massive debt just to get an education, for large numbers of people to lose their homes, and much more.

Most of all I have seen Americans vote time and again against their own self interest because of buzzphrases.


73 de Jim, N2EY
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EI4GMB
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Posts: 166




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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2012, 04:16:24 AM »

Like millions of others in the U.S you have a democratic vote. Maybe you need to elect a government that can do the job! Grin

73,

Fred EI4GMB
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'You can never plan the future by the past'

'Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
WB4LCN
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2012, 08:47:28 AM »

Like millions of others in the U.S you have a democratic vote. Maybe you need to elect a government that can do the job! Grin

73,

Fred EI4GMB

Bingo!
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
N2EY
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Posts: 3833




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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2012, 10:03:56 AM »

Like millions of others in the U.S you have a democratic vote.

America is not a democracy. It's a republic - and the president is not elected by the people.

Instead, the people vote for electors, who then vote for the president. In most cases the states are "winner take all".

In 2000, one candidate got 50,997,897 popular votes and the other got 50,456,002 popular votes. That's a difference of over half a million - yet the less-popular candidate won the election.

That's NOT democracy!

Maybe you need to elect a government that can do the job! Grin

Been trying to do that since 1972.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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ONAIR
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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2012, 11:35:03 AM »

Like millions of others in the U.S you have a democratic vote. Maybe you need to elect a government that can do the job! Grin

73,

Fred EI4GMB
  No government can do the job!  We need to kick out all of those self serving clowns in DC, and have American citizens directly vote on all the issues!
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EI4GMB
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2012, 12:14:59 PM »

If the 99% can't affect the opposing 1% in your Republic, it would seem that the U.S has a real crisis among its people. Somehow, I don't think it's that simple do you? Wink
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 12:25:15 PM by EI4GMB » Logged

'You can never plan the future by the past'

'Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
WB4LCN
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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2012, 09:30:00 PM »

If the 99% can't affect the opposing 1% in your Republic, it would seem that the U.S has a real crisis among its people. Somehow, I don't think it's that simple do you? Wink

That's assuming that that ratio is accurate. How about 53%?

In the US 53% of the people pay 100% of the taxes the rest get a free ride and complain about it still.
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
N2EY
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Posts: 3833




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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2012, 04:41:50 AM »

In the US 53% of the people pay 100% of the taxes the rest get a free ride and complain about it still.

Not true.

It has been claimed that 47% of Americans pay no Federal income tax. I don't know if that figure is correct, but let's assume it is.

What it means is that 47% of Americans have such low incomes, and/or so many deductions, that they don't pay Federal income tax. This includes the poor, the homeless, those in prison and mental institutions who are wards of the state, children, undocumented workers, etc.

But it does not mean 47% pay no taxes or get a free ride. Anybody with a legitimate paycheck pays FICA and Medicare. Anybody who buys stuff in a state with sales tax pays it. Real estate taxes, school taxes, and many more taxes are paid by poor working folks in the 47%.

Look up the source of the statistic and you'll see that it refers only to Federal income tax.

Consider too that a leading Presidential candidate who is a multimillionaire managed to pay a Federal income tax rate of less than 14% of his income last year.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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EI4GMB
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 04:44:26 AM »

I think that people are equally divided in the U.S about how to solve the problems there.
And this is compounded by a 2 Party system which pits republicans against democrats.
IMHO that is the crux of the matter. Wink

Kind Regards

Fred EI4GMB

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'You can never plan the future by the past'

'Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
K9AIM
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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 06:30:53 AM »

In the US 53% of the people pay 100% of the taxes the rest get a free ride and complain about it still.

Does this factor out children who do not work?  I did hear GE paid no taxes...  

The top 20% own 85% of the wealth.  That means 80% of Americans own only 15% of the pie.

The rich have run a very good campaign to convince people that the govt takes in too much -- the very same people who have the resources to effectively lobby the same govt. to write tax laws that provide loop holes and shelters for them and bail them out at taxpayer expense if they get into trouble.  The very people who disparage the govt. (which is we the people in America) are the ones who have the most control over its policies and benefit from them.  It is like Tom Sawyer getting his 'friends' to paint the fence.   Wink

Today's income tax rates are strikingly low relative to the rates of the past century, especially for rich people.  For most of the century, including some boom times, top-bracket income tax rates were much higher than they are today.

From 1930 till the 1980's the top bracket paid a tax rate of over 60% of their income.
From 1944 till 1963 the super rich paid a rate of more than 80%.

today thanks to the Bush tax cuts the top bracket now pays a rate of 35% (but when you factor in tax loopholes and shelters all bets are off... I doubt Mitt Romney pays 35% of his income in taxes) ;-)

Contrary to what the anti-tax lobby would have you believe, super-high tax rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate was over 90%--and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates#lets-begin-with-a-look-at-the-top-income-tax-bracket-since-the-federal-income-tax-was-started-in-1913-as-you-can-see-relative-to-history-its-currently-very-low-1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 06:36:46 AM by K9AIM » Logged
EI4GMB
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« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2012, 02:48:56 PM »

The top 20% own 85% of the wealth.  That means 80% of Americans own only 15% of the pie.

The trouble is, is that most people in the U.S support a free enterprise economy and so most of the 80% wish to emulate the wealth controlling 20%. It is called pursuing the american dream! Grin
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'You can never plan the future by the past'

'Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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