Ameritron ALS-500 / MFJ Quality Lacks

[N4ATS]

"Rather than just pointing a finger and calling names, it is better to learn why something really happens. "

I agree , then start looking and get QC to start cranking up the product before you ship out. Finally we are on the same level. Hopefully the 50% or whatever number you say will drop...Thats the goal...


It's easy to say what something "should" do , when you see what I see on a day to day basis , it takes on a new meaning

[WB4AUW]

The old adage "You get what you pay for" is really true. You know what you're getting when you get Mfj/Ameritron. If you're willing to take the chance that you might get one that was constructed properly then I'd say go for it.

[W8JI]

Sorry, just not an option as my electronic repair skills are very limited and I have no local repair shop I can trust.  Not to mention a problem with older parts.

Looks like as much as we hate it, MFJ is the only option.  Too bad.  It is a shame all the other US manufacturers were pushed out for various reasons.

They are pushed out because Ham radio is a difficult market to make money in. It is a small market, with all volume concentrated at the low cost end, and loaded with headaches. Like this:

I agree , then start looking and get QC to start cranking up the product before you ship out. Finally we are on the same level. Hopefully the 50% or whatever number you say will drop...Thats the goal...

I never said 50%, so instead of doing something constructive, I have to waste time correcting false statements. Some people are just trolls.

[N4ATS]

"I never said 50%, so instead of doing something constructive, I have to waste time correcting false statements. Some people are just trolls."

Ya but I think deep down , my brother , you know its way more,..

[W7ETA]

Consider that companies may not be pushed out of business.  Some simply cannot survive because their market segment changes, customers change.  As a result of market changes, the business can not generate enough cash flow (more funds coming in than go out).

Some other business thinks that if they can buy that business at a “reasonable” price they can get a positive cash flow from the acquisition.

At it's simplest, consumers vote with their $$$$.  When they vote for one company over another the company that doesn't get the votes isn't pushed out of business by the company getting the votes.  If anything, customers pushed the company out of business.

73
Bob

[N4ATS]

I agree but what really bugs me more over is that a simple recognition is all that s needed. They know that the defects run high but try to defend it instead of looking for the problem and trying to resolve it

If I did it that way, I would no longer have a stable flow of radios and amplifiers coming into my shop from all over the world. I do it because I love to repair radios and amplifiers , NOT because I make a living on it. My primary job satisfies that well with in.

The bottom line , maybe folks don't mind all the failures , maybe they don't care at the cost , maybe they don't have elsewhere to go, maybe some of you are right , you are going to buy them regardless...

I guess so...However I will keep fixing them as you wish

[WA4NJY]

Bill,

How do you rate the initial design of the ALS-500?  After you re-manufacture one, is it an amp we could depend on?

Also, have you been into the ALS-600?  Any thoughts there?

Thanks,
Ed WA4NJY

[N4ATS]

The amplifier is OK , takes a boat load of current to get 500 watts out, but rock solid. I have seen upwards of 70 amps to reach the max power. The band switching is good , overall operation good but again , you need a massive power supply.

When they come into the shop , I use a strapped set of Astron RM-70M power supplies with number 4 gauge wire for power.

If you can give it that , they are OK , no problem.

I really do not see many that come thru here, other than the one I started this thread on and , the last few months , maybe  3 or 4 and they were all fixed , simple resolder work due to cold solder joints and things of that nature.

As for the ALS-600 , repaired many , usually a result of the FETS going bad from folks trying to get 600 watts out them and keeping it there. They are solid at about 350-400 watts

Bill

[VE7RF]

I certainly do not disagree MFJ could do better for QC, and I know they had a period, while a key person had to miss work, a sub was brought in from another area. I see ways they could do better. But here are example of things that are out of line:

The question is , if its sealed , how do contaminants get in? Come on now...

The FL-7000  I work on in large quantities has about 30 "sealed" relays in it and I never one time ever , had seen this problem. Now there are two things going on here , One MFJ picked the cheesiest relay that they could find OR there is something other wrong like one of the pins not soldered and vibration brought it back to continuity.

This is an attitude that clearly shows contempt, and a desire to make things as bad as possible. Instead of a question or comment, it is "fight picking".

Anyone remotely familiar with components, as the role some of the people offering advice take on, would also know well that plastics in relays leach contaminants after being sealed. Relays with higher current contacts have a huge problem with connection resistance in contacts when they do not have wetting currents. This has been a problem since the very first relays were ever made, and it will be a problem forever, when the contact is a high current contact without wetting current.

EVERYONE is having more problems now with relays. I know this because I see it multiple places. I recently had to spend 20 hours of work with a national relay manufacturer because they had a 12 volt 100mA relay coil that drew 150-200 mA. They had relays with coil resistances of 70-80 ohms. This was a $12-15  high end P-B relay. That relay tied up production for months because the system wouldn't reliably tolerate twice the coil current under all operating conditions.

Here are some links on relays:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting_current

http://www.control.com/thread/1026229568

Just search "wetting current".

It is also explained here:

http://www.w8ji.com/relay_cleaning_and_life.htm

Read about it, and then look at this post:

The question is , if its sealed , how do contaminants get in? Come on now...

The FL-7000  I work on in large quantities has about 30 "sealed" relays in it and I never one time ever , had seen this problem. Now there are two things going on here , One MFJ picked the cheesiest relay that they could find OR there is something other wrong like one of the pins not soldered and vibration brought it back to continuity.

It is easy to see who is really out of step with how relays work, if you search "relay wetting current".

Relay zero current contact resistance, which is really caused by a very thin layer a few molecules thick of contaminant (and NOT oxide as many claim), is an age old problem.

On smaller relays, it normally does not show on any relay that has more than a few volts and a few dozen milliamperes applied. As such, the fact it does not appear in a FL-7000 is not any mystery at all since the majority of relays are not in the receive path. Anyone who understands basics of relays would already know that it is only the contacts in the receive path that matter for receive.

If a low power relay is used, statistically problems go way down. Actually lower contact current ratings produce fewer problems, and bifurcated contacts work much better.

I invite anyone to research relays, and they will see what I mean about people who appear to simply stir the pot with wild accusations and conjecture that are not based on fact.

73 Tom

##  OK, what about relays whose contacts are either gold, or silver ??   Or do we still get a molecule contaminant problem ?

Jim  VE7RF

[N4ATS]

Thanks for the links , I appreciate them , however this thread appears to be derailed from the original post. I would think there are some relay failures , however in the case of the "cycle the unit a few hundred times" , I won't give in.

The FL-7000 has 1 TX/RX (Bypass) sealed relay , never had an issue in some 700 plus amps other than the relay going bad. Usually when I deliver an FL-7000 it comes with a data sheet with about 30 checkouts I do that cover it.

Thanks to all on here who have participated , it was fun , but again , the main discussion has derailed.

Several folks have emailed me and asked to start documenting failures , it seems to be a good idea so I may add a link to  my web and as I test new and used amps , take photos and keep records of the failures. Who knows maybe Ameritron can use this data to help clean up the mess.

Cheers

[W8JI]

Thanks for the links , I appreciate them , however this thread appears to be derailed from the original post. I would think there are some relay failures , however in the case of the "cycle the unit a few hundred times" , I won't give in.

The FL-7000 has 1 TX/RX (Bypass) sealed relay , never had an issue in some 700 plus amps other than the relay going bad. Usually when I deliver an FL-7000 it comes with a data sheet with about 30 checkouts I do that cover it.

Thanks to all on here who have participated , it was fun , but again , the main discussion has derailed.

Several folks have emailed me and asked to start documenting failures , it seems to be a good idea so I may add a link to  my web and as I test new and used amps , take photos and keep records of the failures. Who knows maybe Ameritron can use this data to help clean up the mess.

Cheers

It also turns out you do not see 100% of all amplifiers from AES, as you claimed.

[N4ATS]

Wrong again Tom and I stand corrected with the below comment (unlike some people)

We will test ANY amplifer 100% FREE to "those who ask when they buy it". As for the busted ones , I see them all.

Did he tell you about the last "4" ALS-500 amps? 4 in a ROW failed out of the box?

Game over Tom.

To ANYONE reading this thread , to find simple failure rates , got to Eham , Reviews , MFJ or Ameritron and look at the numbers yourself. The AVG is 2-3 out of 5. No need for me to prove it , you wrote the reviews ,  not I

You can also google :"MFJ Mighty Fine Junk" and see hundreds of posts

Tom , the simple fact remains weather you try to lure folks off track or not..

MFJ/Ameritron LACKS quality and you need to power up before shipment.

You pounce on him telling him I am causing problems yet he tells you MFJ is a joke , look into it , post all the facts.


I am not giving in to your ways...Sorry

[VE7RF]

MFJ/Ameriton LACKS quality and you need to POWER UP before shipment.

##  Tom, how can you say the various Ameritron amps go through this QC process, complete with stickers of various employee names etc.... yet amps are blowing up cuz a hv cap was installed backwards?
There is NO way in hell that amp was even plugged in and turned on, never mind tested on one or more bands.  Heck, if all they did was simply plug it in..and turn it on, that alone could easily eliminate miswired hv supplies etc.  Maybe what they gotta do is gather the employees up..at coffee time...gather around, while we plug in all these amps you gals just finished building in the last 2 x days.

##  I can imagine the look on their faces when the ones with miswired HV caps  decide to grenade themselves.  I think they would get the message asap. Start building amplifiers..and not IED's.

##  Nobody did respond about my mentioning using either gold or silver plated relay contacts.  Would that work, or is there still a "molecular" barrier present ?

### In the meantime, I suggest the best joe ham can do is to simply take all the covers off his new amp, and inspect it the best he can, looking for obvious stuff, like hv caps installed backwards, bad solder connections, stuff not soldered at all, and make sure all hardware is tightened down etc. Then put the covers back on and turn it on. See if the t/r relay works, b4 applying drive etc.  Or get somebody who can do the pre-check, and testing for joe ham.  This above pre-check may well save a lot of grief.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

[KE5JPP]

I am not giving in to your ways...Sorry

I agree with you on this.  Tom, W8JI, is quickly losing credibility in this thread by trying to minimize or defend MFJ's quality issues.  Despite the QC stickers, a substitute employee filling in for some other guy, and other excuses, the fact remains that MFJ does have serious quality issues.  It is a crap shoot when you buy one of their products.  I recommend watching the MFJ factory tour on YouTube.  Rickety plywood tables, old run-down assembly areas and offices, and uneducated, unskilled workforce with little or no training = low price & low quality.  Hams still buy this stuff though, so...

Gene

[NN4X]

The heading is "Ameritron ALS-500 / MFJ Quality Lacks" but the crowd correctly expanded it to REALLY mean "MFJ Quality Lacks", with an emphasis on post-MFJ Ameritron amps.

Reviewing this now very widely-read thread, it strikes me how some folks continuously attempt to re-direct the topic off-tangent.   Wetting currents?  To correct a problem on a brand new amp?  Seriously?  ROFLMAO!

There has been ample evidence provided which leads one to believe that MFJ performs almost no QC on the amps.  The only defense offered has been that "The QC Guy"  was away for awhile.  This argument is fatuous, to say the least.   Quality is a PROCESS, NOT A PERSON.  If "The QC Guy" is fighting end of the production line fires rather than identifying and instituting QC methods and procedures, he's simply not doing his job!  If "The Temporary Replacement QC Guy" doesn't know what he's doing, that's yet ANOTHER QC issue!  There should NEVER be a single point of failure in an organization: that's management 101, folks, and MFJ is apparently failing this course.

We are let to believe that this short term QC Guy absence was the root cause of all the problems, but clearly, that cannot be the case.  How does one then explain away the infamous ALS-1300 reviews?: http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8288

Here's another one, which at first is complaining about R&L but it veers off onto a discussion of MFJ quality issues: http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,70785.30.html

My own experience with MFJ products is limited, by choice, but includes:

1) A cheap MFJ digital clock.  Wouldn't keep time.  I tossed it in the trash.

2) An MFJ Grandmaster CW keyer.  It sat unused in my air-conditioned shack for a couple of years, and when I did try to use it, it didn't work.  I sent it back for repairs, and 5 months later got it back.  It sat for another year or two, and when I went to use it, most of the pots were so tight, you could either barely turn them or not turn them at all.  What happened?  I have no idea.  I salvaged the knobs, and tossed it in the trash.

3) An MFJ-259 ( a truly epic device which I thank Tom W8JI for designing every time I use it) - worked fine, then, the next time I tried to use it, it wouldn't work on 2M.  It was stored in my air-conditioned shack.  I sold it as-is and replaced it with another, which has worked FB.

4) A post-MFJ Hy-Gain 204BAS.  I posted a review here on eHam, but it was mysteriously "disappeared" sometime late last year.  I'll write it again, and see if it sticks this time, but basically, I compared the construction and selected aspects of their components to that which might be turned out by Chinese political prisoners working in a forced-labor factory.  I do have pictures to document this.  Once past these issues, it's been a FB performer, as the 204BAS is legend for.

Here's an anecdotal observation from a few years ago:  I was visiting AES Orlando, as I do from time to time, and went into the back office to talk to one of my friends.   I came across a PILE of Ameritron amps in their shipping boxes.  I asked "What's up with these?", and was told "Defective.  We're shipping them back to MFJ for warranty repair".

Finally, I'd like to conclude with the additional observation that everything I've read about "Quality", in both hardware manufacturing and software development, indicates that improving quality actually leads to DECREASED costs to the manufacturer, and the earlier you catch problems, the less it costs to fix it.  For example, to fix poor soldering issues, it's cheapest to teach the builders how to properly solder.  Barring that, you require that each piece be inspected/tested before it leaves the station.  Barring that, you test the completed product at the end of the line.  More expensive is shipping it to a dealer and having them or the customer find the problem, and then having to return it.   It becomes even more expensive if the customer chooses to never buy another one of your products due to a sub-optimal experience caused by a failed product, and then tells thousands about the problem on, say, an Internet discussion forum.    

This, of course, has limits - building to mil-spec standards and QC levels will obviously cost more, even if the failure rate drops to zero.

That said, there's no doubt in my mind that there is ample opportunity for quality process improvement at MFJ/Ameritron/Hy-Gain/Cushcraft/Vectronics/Mirage, and I do hope they seize that opportunity, and find great success in that endeavor.

73 to all,

Steve
NN4X