Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The ongoing push of Ham Radio to EMCOMM  (Read 83428 times)
K1CJS
Member

Posts: 5879




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2012, 07:21:30 AM »

So much for your post on May 17th where you put CJS on ignore.  Methinks someone is a bit fond of arguing.

Not to drag this out, but when I see multiple posts from 'SDY, it's all too apparent what he's doing.  Funny too how he claims he 'ignores' me, yet keeps answering my posts with his inane comments.  Oh well, it takes all kinds....
Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2012, 08:30:59 AM »

Again, no productive Ecomm information as per the topic of this string, just more harassing comments from the other stalker. Yes, I have all the bullies in their group marked with the Scarlet Letter of the ignore button. It does not mean I won't defend myself or call them to task for their bad behavior. It does mean that I have the negative herd branded for easy identification. The ignore button is a great device! Grin

This string was started by another bully who repeatedly calls Ecomm volunteers "whackers" and makes up imaginary insulting scenarios  He claims to be a professional electronics technician, but pretends to know nothing about modern communications systems, how they function or under what conditions they fail.He also acts like he was oblivious to the value of information from the field in a disaster. Who would hire an electronics technician that appears clueless about his supposed area of expertise? This string was created as a manipulation, not a search for information or to engage in a positive conversation on the topic. Even the title was a false premise. For these reasons, the originator has been added to the ignore herd. Wink

"Not to drag this out"
That is exactly what you are doing. Why don't you give it a rest and return to the original Ecomm topic. I can't be that important to you. Kiss
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 07:38:09 PM by KI4SDY » Logged
K1CJS
Member

Posts: 5879




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2012, 10:02:42 AM »

....As far as people thinking Cell Phones are the end all be all… forget it.  For hours after the tornados the Cell service was useless.  Either from downed power lines, downed towers, or just jammed with calls way above and beyond what the system is designed for....

With the availability today of cheap 'throw-away' cell phones, and also the government giving them away along with monthly allocations of minutes to use, is it any wonder that the cell phone system is overloaded during emergencies?  Not only with the individual who just wants to let someone know they're OK, but also with the people who usually have the things 'grafted' to their ear all day everyday.

....But the last one remains, those that take things a step too far... or more....

....the thing I still don't see is the ham community, or more importantly the ARES / EMCOMM community and the league coming out and saying hey, this is not the way to present yourself....And then give an actual list of ways not to act and actions not acceptable for ham operators. 

I hear time and time again that we are 'self policing'.  OK, if that is the case, then we need to do just that.
If some fool wants to go ambulance chasing, and giving the hobby a black eye, then maybe the league should send them a letter stating that isn't in the interest of the hobby, and to cease and desist.  If they fail to comply, then yank their license.  That is part of self policing.  And specific ARES groups that are allowing, condoning or encouraging such behavior need to have their credentials revoked and a new EC put in place that will ensure that as amateurs we present a professional outward appearance.

That isn't actually a part of the work the ARRL has agreed to do--but I certainly agree that someone should.  Even back when the FCC was doing enforcement, they didn't do that.  I believe the thing to do is to have the police or the authorities take the bothersome person into custody--or outright arrest them for unruly behavior during a emergency or something.  Unfortunately, the police have too much to do that is more important then taming whackers. 

Quote
We never even bother to properly Elmer newcomers to the hobby.  The people that get on 2 meters and operate as LID's using Q codes, HI HI and other irritating things are picked up by the newcomers and no one bothers the tell them it's not really acceptable to do these things.  So you get the noob doing ALOT of it, and no one will talk to them.  This eventually drives them away from the hobby, and we loose numbers. 

Oh, they're told--most of the time, anyway.  They're told over the air by other hams--and they should listen, but they figure that ham radio is just one big street corner, and they can do as they please.  If someone won't listen to correction--or reason--pretty soon they ARE shunned and ignored.  And ham radio is better off without those troublemakers.

As to losing numbers, for every one of the uneducatable, there are two or three others who DO listen and do their best to educate themselves to the PROPER way of doing things.  We shouldn't worry about the few who leave because they refuse to conform, rather we should do everything we can to keep the ones who do try interested and in our ranks.  73!
Logged
AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12686




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 11:17:43 AM »

Hams have been using Q signals and "Hi" on voice ever since I started listening back in the 1950's. Back then more used them than those that didn't. I probably came about as a carry over of working CW. I wrote a high school paper on the special language of ham radio operators. Actually, many (most) specialized groups develop their own "short cut" language - doctors, lawers, race car drivers, you name it.

It seems to me that only relatively recently have some 2M ops decided that you are a lid if you use "handle", QTH, Hi, or other short cuts".
Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 06:28:53 PM »

The Q code is a historical part of ham radio that was created to provide abbreviated transmissions on CW, theoretically resulting in improved efficiency and more clear air time. It might be useful when a single emergency frequency or repeater is being overloaded by many civilian hams and public safety agencies in a disaster. Of course, everyone would have to take the time to learn it. I am embarrassed that I have not learned the Q code, but it is on my bucket list of things to do. If more hams used it, that would be an incentive for me to start. Smiley

As for the "HI, Hi" nonsense, it is losing favor through ham social mores and the age old cure of tribe banishment. In other words, no one will talk to you if you act like that on the air. Cry    
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 06:05:13 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
LA9XSA
Member

Posts: 376




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2012, 12:03:18 PM »

For voice work, especially in emergencies on VHF/UHF, I prefer plain language. Prowords and codes have their place in message handling, but an important point is that they remain part of the communications protocol that is used to pass messages - they're not something that public officials or the general public should have to deal with in an emergency.
Personally I would never get angry at people for using CB, Military or police lingo on a casual repeater conversation, though I might ask what it means.

I'd like to just briefly re-address four themes in the original post.

First about the ARRL and why they push emcomm. As mentioned by NA4IT it is one of the main reasons for amateur radio to exist; and in my view it probably remains the biggest political reason why the public at large lets us amateurs keep these frequencies as a privilege. Even so we should not forget the other reasons - technical knowledge, international goodwill, etc. to the point that those in power thinks emcomm is our *only* reason to exist.

Second about "lids" keeping frequencies occupied maybe being a reason for keeping our frequency bands. The existence of potentially interfering equipment is of course a consideration when auctioning off frequency, but since the service is licensed, every legal license holder is known to the authorities, and equipment confiscation or other enforcement would be much easier to do than against CB . And I'd think the FCC would spend more resources on keeping out intruders into a paid band, than they would spend on people trolling amateurs. Cheap Asian transmitting equipment for any frequency can be bought or modified illegally somewhere, so the potential for jammers exists on any frequency. One interesting problem of course is that amateur UHF and VHF frequencies sometimes are used for international communication, so that complicates matters for the regulator.

Third, about "whackers" and people who take things too far. Of course there are a few of those who think this is a chance to do a bit of live action role play around an emergency. But this is precisely one of the types of people who should get weeded out in training and screening. I think showing up in a load-bearing vest with a gun and magazines, and a faux police car is more indicative of whackerdom than wearing a reflective vest. I feel it's wrong to focus on the reflective vests or car magnets being a problem specifically - when walking around traffic it's a good safety precaution and it's probably a requirement that the emergency management agency sets for their volunteers. Flashing amber lamps may be appropriate in some situations, not in others. *

Finally, about "all else fails". Even if all those wonderful county repeaters go down - including the amateur repeaters - amateur radio is not at its end. If there is propagation, you can get a message around the world without any infrastructure at all. Amateur radio can find a way - even if that involves bouncing a signal off the moon. Many agencies and NGOs were greatly helped by amateur radio after Katrina, and it keeps being useful now too when all infrastructure goes down - but I don't think the ARRL meant that amateur radio was geared towards some sort of Mass Effect 3 or Fallout scenario - just when the phones and the internet etc. goes down.

( *: This hatred of reflective vests sometimes heard online reminds me of people here in Norway who insist on removing all reflexes and lights from their bikes and cycle around in black clothes in the dark. Acting like some kind of spec ops ninja in traffic sounds more wackerish to me than wearing appropriate safety gear, but I suppose they think they're "living the momement" or "being high-speed low-drag". I just know I'm afraid of running over them on my commute.)
Logged
KA1MDA
Member

Posts: 543




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2012, 04:20:33 AM »

Promoting emergency communications and rediness isn't a bad thing per se, however (IMHO), all of this EMCOM stuff is useless without technically competent people. No matter how much emcom training is involved, the current widespread practice of memorizing the question pools has filled the ranks of amateur radio with hams who are utterly clueless and technically incompetent, to put it mildly.

OK, so if an emergency strikes, and IF none of the equipment has been damaged, and IF all the equipment is available and deploys as planned, great. But what happens when a feedline gets cut? Or the antenna is damaged or unavailable? Or if some equipment is not available and something needs to be improvised? One just has to browse through the "technical" questions posed in forums here and on other web sites to see what the results would be. If someone can't troubleshoot a simple power supply problem, or figure out how to hook up an amplifier, or can't even make and tune a simple dipole, what good are they in a true emergency?

I've seen situations where local clubs plan Field Day for at least 6 months in advance, going through a mind numbing number of planning sessions, and when the big day arrives, they still can't get it straight due to some minor unforseen technical glitch. To be effective in a true disaster scenario, hams need to be technically proficient, at least to the point of being able to improvise effective communications solutions with whats on hand, even if that means stripping the zip cord from a cheap extension cord and making a dipole out of it. God help us if a simple coax jumper goes bad during an emergency and the local Radio Shack is closed!

Tom
Logged
K1CJS
Member

Posts: 5879




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2012, 07:54:07 AM »

Promoting emergency communications and rediness isn't a bad thing per se, however (IMHO), all of this EMCOM stuff is useless without technically competent people....

I would amend that to read "...technically competent and mature people, who don't go around thinking they're going to 'save the world'.  Food for thought, isn't it...
Logged
LA9XSA
Member

Posts: 376




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2012, 11:36:19 AM »

Promoting emergency communications and rediness isn't a bad thing per se, however (IMHO), all of this EMCOM stuff is useless without technically competent people.
This is true, and I've heard top emcomm people in the ARRL say this too - the whole point of having amateur radio operators as volunteers is that they know how to use the radio, and improvise, and know about all the different modes and ways to communicate, so if you're in emcomm don't leave the radio laying around between emergencies - get on the air and play radio a bit!
No matter how much emcom training is involved, the current widespread practice of memorizing the question pools has filled the ranks of amateur radio with hams who are utterly clueless and technically incompetent, to put it mildly.
A license is only the beginning of learning - a starting point and minimum standard; at least I think so. Some countries have a practical part of their test, and that's fine too, but I wouldn't require a degree to get on the air.
One just has to browse through the "technical" questions posed in forums here and on other web sites to see what the results would be.
Asking questions isn't a bad trait actually, and they seem to get a good answer pretty much every time. I would be more worried if nobody asked questions and thought they knew it all.
To be effective in a true disaster scenario, hams need to be technically proficient, at least to the point of being able to improvise effective communications solutions with whats on hand, even if that means stripping the zip cord from a cheap extension cord and making a dipole out of it.
Indeed, and that highlights that you need both training and practice before the emergency happens - even if that could sound "elitist" to those who just want to show up on the spot.
I would amend that to read "...technically competent and mature people, who don't go around thinking they're going to 'save the world'.  Food for thought, isn't it...
The irony is that some of those most loudly decrying emergency communications and proclaiming it useless in any and all situations seem to think the whole and only purpose of amateur radio volunteers is to shoot down alien invaders with their microwave waves. It's more likely they'll be supporting communications emergencies caused by tornadoes, wild fires, or the odd wayward backhoe incident.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 11:48:06 AM by LA9XSA » Logged
K5UNX
Member

Posts: 227


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2012, 12:43:26 PM »

Promoting emergency communications and rediness isn't a bad thing per se, however (IMHO), all of this EMCOM stuff is useless without technically competent people.
This is true, and I've heard top emcomm people in the ARRL say this too - the whole point of having amateur radio operators as volunteers is that they know how to use the radio, and improvise, and know about all the different modes and ways to communicate, so if you're in emcomm don't leave the radio laying around between emergencies - get on the air and play radio a bit!
No matter how much emcom training is involved, the current widespread practice of memorizing the question pools has filled the ranks of amateur radio with hams who are utterly clueless and technically incompetent, to put it mildly.
A license is only the beginning of learning - a starting point and minimum standard; at least I think so. Some countries have a practical part of their test, and that's fine too, but I wouldn't require a degree to get on the air.

Being a newbie I have a view point on this . . . . I am in the process of memorizing the questions/answers so I can try to pass the General test June 9.  I have had a Tech license for years but never did anything, so I am restarting so to speak.

That said, I see passing the test as just the beginning. I then have buy some gear, setup a station, get on the air etc. So far I only have a dual band HT. I did volunteer last fall at a local bike race to assist with communications with the rest of our club. I learned a lot doing that. I see these events as "training" for emergency situations. I have a lot to learn and am with a club that's active and helping me.

If upgrading the license was too difficult and required too much training to make us all technically competent according to someone's yard stick, then I doubt the "hobby" would grow at all.

It's on each of us to learn and apply our learning. I intend to keep learning. My goal is to have a portable station that I could setup and volunteer things like bike races,  participate in ARRL Field Day, and other events. Things learned doing those activities will help me if a real emergency hits and I am able to help out in some capacity.
Logged

KA1MDA
Member

Posts: 543




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2012, 02:55:46 PM »

"If upgrading the license was too difficult and required too much training to make us all technically competent according to someone's yard stick, then I doubt the "hobby" would grow at all."

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:58:48 PM by KA1MDA » Logged
K5UNX
Member

Posts: 227


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2012, 04:23:33 PM »

"If upgrading the license was too difficult and required too much training to make us all technically competent according to someone's yard stick, then I doubt the "hobby" would grow at all."

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

While I don't disagree with you, some have standards that are too high is all I was trying to say.
Logged

KA1MDA
Member

Posts: 543




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2012, 04:20:58 AM »

I'm not saying the standards need to be higher- I'm saying that hams should UNDERSTAND the concepts that are covered on the tests instead of just memorizing the question pools. Let's face it- you wouldn't go to a doctor, dentist, or lawyer who got their license by memorizing the question pools of their respective licensing exams, would you? No, because you would know they had far less knowlege than someone who actually studied and understood the material. Yet you won't apply the same logic to ham radio.

Whether you want to admit it or not, ham radio IS a technical hobby. The voltages inside some ham gear are easily lethal to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Unfortunately, by memorizing the question pools, you may not even have enough basic knowlege to know what you are about to do is dangerous. Far worse, by memorizing the question pools, you are denying yourself the very foundation on which you will need to build on as you go forward in the hobby. Without such a foundation, many new hams feel frustrated, and many even leave the hobby due to this frustration. Without a basic understanding of the underlying concepts, it's like trying to drive a car in a foreign country where you can't read or understand the roadsigns. You may eventually get to where you want to go by sheer luck, but it's going to take a lot longer and it defiitely won't be fun.

These forums are overflowing with the painfully obvious results of memorization. Extra class hams who have to buy ready made dipoles because they can't figure out how to make one for $10 worth of wire, or who need help hooking up an LED because they don't know Ohms law. Or hams who get suckered into spending big $$$ on the latest super miracle antenna because they don't know any better, and then get frustrated because no one can hear them.

Tom
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 04:30:36 AM by KA1MDA » Logged
WB6BYU
Member

Posts: 13028




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2012, 09:31:01 AM »

I think there is a reasonable distinction to make between what is needed to pass the license
exam, and what experienced hams should know how to do.

None of us start out knowing everything about this hobby.  In fact, nobody ever gets to that
point even after 40+ years doing it.  The license introduces some basic concepts - not everyone
learns them, or gets those questions right, but at least they get exposed to them.  This is
a starting point - from there one hopes that they learn more as they go along.

Our ARES group has a lot of new hams from a license class we taught last year.  If we want
them to learn how to improvise a dipole antenna, how to hoist an antenna in a tree, what
propagation modes are useful in adverse situations, and other skills that are useful in an
emergency response, we need to teach them.  Perhaps more importantly, we need to
demonstrate why such skills are useful for the situations they might encounter, and provide
opportunities for them to solve such problems in training exercises.

With two specific exceptions, I don't remember any of the questions that were on any of
the license exams that I've taken.  Instead it is the stuff that I use regularly that I remember
best, whether it was part of an exam or not.  I believe that a good EMCOM group should be
preparing its members for those skills that may be required.  Not everyone needs to be a
technical whiz, but at least they can learn about different antenna options and methods
of communication that may work when normal links are down.  We need to set that example,
and that expectation, and help our members learn what we want them to be able to do.
That might include how to build battery cables, or improvised antennas, or operate HF, etc.
But if they aren't given the opportunity to learn, they probably won't.
Logged
K5WCF
Member

Posts: 25




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2012, 05:53:31 AM »

 I'm thinking the reason this discussion has gone the direction it has is that we all seem to agree that this is a multifaceted hobby. Ham radio is a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and when the ARRL and the FCC start focusing on one facet of the hobby some of us get concerned. Why the push for emcomm? We as hams should always have this in the back of our minds as one of the reasons for being in this hobby, are the ARRL and FCC under the impression that there is a reason for concern when it comes to hams helping with emcomm, or are they just trying to keep us in the loop because so many other agencies or groups supercede us and all this talk makes us feel wanted so we won't take our equipment and go home or in some cases not even bother to show up? I personally feel "when all else fails" it isn't going to matter whose trained and whose not, what's going to matter is do you have the equipment and the ability to get on the air from your home, car, somewhere in the field, etc.... I can promise you this, the trained ARES, RACES, CERTS, or whatever who shows up with a dual band HT or just a mobile 2mtr rig and a battery is going to be very limited in what he or she can do communications wise, regardless of how much FEMA training they have under their belt. Now the training is good, but should it be the deciding factor for who can and can't communicate? The ARRL and the FCC needs to remember we have many other thing to do in this hobby, and some recognition for those other things would be nice to hear about as well as emcomm.

William K5WCF
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!