Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 12 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The ongoing push of Ham Radio to EMCOMM  (Read 87985 times)
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 07:53:43 PM »

NA4IT and KE4YOG have made logical and coherent statements based on FCC regulations and professional experience. I do agree hams who are mentally and physically unprepared should not attempt to participate in organized emergency efforts. Usually, these folks are easy to spot and often weed themselves out. Some display a negative attitude by bad mouthing the efforts of others when their abilities are questioned. Others are electronically educated but socially challenged. Wink

However, there is a place for everyone in an emergency. Those who are not capable of participating in an organized effort can certainly serve themselves and their neighbors by communicating the status and needs of their area to the local emergency services. I see nothing wrong and everything good about equipping public safety services with the radio equipment necessary for that function in a disaster. We have done it here and I sleep much better knowing the lady ham in the family can make contact no matter what the situation or what communications services may no longer exist. In Florida, hurricanes and the resulting multiple tornadoes are an annual threat. Shocked
 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:01:32 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
KB8VUL
Member

Posts: 110




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 03:47:47 AM »

I don't know that I would call my situation socially challenged.  It's just that I have little empathy and even less patience for out and out utter stupidity.  And here again, I am referring to the people that take it a bit to far, then keep going.  I am referring to the fools that self deploy.  Showing up in their bright vests, claiming self importance and demanding attention.

And I am seeing that there is a time and place for ARES...  outside dooms day.

As I said in the first post.  Personal experience is what I have seen locally.  One time, one call in 1980 something, and they cling to it.  There is a bigger picture, that I never saw. 

Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 05:31:56 AM »

Utilitarianphobia: The fear of becoming useful, to the extent that one would have to get off his rear to actually accomplish something or help another. KI4SDY, 2012  Wink

Utilitarianenvy: Jealousy of the usefulness of others, who have gotten off their rears to actually accomplish something or help another. KI4SDY, 2012  Wink 

Bigpictureblinded: The state of being oblivious to everything, except what is immediately experienced. KI4SDY, 2012.  Wink
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 05:59:33 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
K1CJS
Member

Posts: 6034




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2012, 07:47:25 AM »

I'm in agreement with the thread originator.  The unwavering push toward emcomm by the ARRL does the entire hobby a disservice--especially to ARRL itself, who has said many times in the past that ham radio has something in it for everyone.

My thought is that they (the ARRL) should make up its collective mind and NOT push emcomm as the do all and be all of ham radio.  One of the major parts, yes, but not the only reason that the government through the FCC should be made to think that ham radio exists for--as they seem to too many of us do now.
Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 08:32:24 AM »

Granteditus: Taking for granted issues that only exist in ones mind and not in reality. KI4SDY, 2012  Wink

You need to read NA4IT's post again, that includes the FCC's official description of ham radio. Maybe both of you are in the wrong hobby.  Grin
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 08:59:23 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
KB8VUL
Member

Posts: 110




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2012, 06:11:50 PM »

Utilitarianphobia: The fear of becoming useful, to the extent that one would have to get off his rear to actually accomplish something or help another. KI4SDY, 2012  Wink

Utilitarianenvy: Jealousy of the usefulness of others, who have gotten off their rears to actually accomplish something or help another. KI4SDY, 2012  Wink 

Bigpictureblinded: The state of being oblivious to everything, except what is immediately experienced. KI4SDY, 2012.  Wink

Gee, the first one fits... I wouldn't know what to do if I had to install and repair commercial radio systems for police and fire departments.  And to work on 911 center and radio dispatch equipment.  I don't know if I could handle the stress.
Oh, wait, that's what I do for a living.... so I get paid to be useful. 

And jealousy of ARES... sure.. that fits...

And being oblivious, too some clown in a station wagon with two rusted out rotating lights duck taped to his roof.  A blazing orange vest on, carrying a police badge with his ham call engraved into it.  Who the hell you think I am, Stevie Wonder?
Logged
KB8VUL
Member

Posts: 110




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2012, 06:23:09 PM »

You know it's strange that I ask an honest question and folks get all defensive about it. 
I ask a question, commented on personal experience and perception, and folks get all go all nuts.

No one said ok, I see what you mean, and you point is valid in your experience.... But here is what we see, and what we have done.  Here is how we honestly assisted in time of need.  This was the situation, here was the need that was created and here's how we as ham operators fulfilled the need for assistance. 

I go to work every day and work on radio systems.  I show up, there is a need, it's broken or it's noisy or whatever the issue is.  I investigate the problem and provide a solution to that problem.  The problems differ, as do the solutions. 

Some of it's mundane.  External interference, bad microphone on a car radio,  simple stuff.
Some of it is serious, like our 911 phone system is failed, we can't get calls and for some reason it didn't shift over to the backup dispatch center.  Lives at stake type stuff.  I  can tell you about the mundane and the not so mundane...
So why is it that NO ONE seems to be able to actually communicate how they helped in time of need? 
Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2012, 07:43:47 PM »

"You know its strange that I ask a honest question and folks get all defensive about it."
"I don't know that I would call my situation socially challenged." Yes, that is a defensive statement!

When you start asking honest and rational questions and rid yourself of the imaginary demons that seem to haunt your ham experience, let me know. I am not usually a bragger, but if you will make those efforts of self-improvement and demonstrate progress, I will make an exception and share a lifetime of service (paid and volunteer) with you. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time with your grumpy foolishness and attracting other eHam.net trolls to this string. I am placing you on ignore to mark you, along with K1CJS and seeking logical conversation elsewhere.  Wink  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:03:23 PM by KI4SDY » Logged
WB6BYU
Member

Posts: 13237




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 09:46:16 PM »

You can't generalize all the EMCOM groups based on one county, one group, or one
individual, whether for good or for bad.  They vary widely.  Some are well trained and
responsible, others are hazards to any response.

Of course, those groups who exclude the complainers and those who aren't willing
to train and prepare for actual service get accused of being elitist.

We had a local guy who really wanted to be accepted and to help, but, well, he had
some issues.  He made a big deal that he had received a certificate thanking him for
relaying a message during an emergency half way across the country.  I patiently
explained to him that some things are like eating breakfast - you might fondly remember
a great feast you had one day, but it is the regular day-to-day diet that makes you
what you are.  Without that, a single breakfast won't last you very long.

Are hams useful?  We had massive flooding along the Oregon / Washington coast
some years back.  Several counties had NO communications in and out other than
ham radio for 3 to 10 days.  Have the county systems been updated?  Yes, of course,
but there is no guarantee that will be adequate the next time around.  One large mud
slide along a major road can take out the power, telephone, and other communication
links along with it.  Some of the fanciest trunked systems were the first to fail and the
last to get working again.

At the same time, however, Oregon has funded ham equipment in each county EOC,
contingent on having a proper volunteer organization to install, test, maintain, and exercise
the equipment to make sure it is available when needed.  (Not all counties have agreed
to this, for various reasons.)  In our county we have a complete spare set of equipment
in a trailer;  individual members have their own equipment, and we train regularly in using
various modes that we might need.  We don't know what will be required of us - whether
it will require HF, or setting up a digipeater to link an adjacent county to the State OEM,
or providing relief operators for another county whose operators are exhausted after two
weeks of work.  But we train to be ready, and part of that is increasing the skills and
knowledge of the team members across a range of ham activities.

Do we accept the services of non-members in a real emergency?  Yes, but subject to
approval, and as part of a team.  And we stress to all our members that they need to
understand skills and tasks well enough to supervise "emergent volunteers" when
needed.

Yes, we've all run into the wannabes.  Someone described them has wearing load-bearing
suspenders for all their HTs and other gear.  They are the bane of any volunteer organization:
I've seen them in ARES, Search and Rescue, and  CAP.  They say they want to help, but their
focus is on becoming a legend in their own mind rather than serving the community, and they
are the first ones sent away.  (In one case, a CAP member from an adjacent county was
offered an extended stay at our Sheriff's expense in appreciation for his "assistance" in
a search.)


So there are ham EMCOM groups around the country that are working hard at emergency
preparedness (which is different than simply saying you'll respond if there is a need.)  There
are groups of complainers and wannabes.  Rather than argue about which is a better
picture of the actual state of ham radio EMCOM, it seems much more worthwhile to focus
on what we can do to build a useful organization, and set about doing that.
Logged
AF5DN
Member

Posts: 21




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2012, 01:44:03 PM »

Only a few weeks back here is the Dallas Fort Worth area we were hit with 4 tornados all occurring at the same time.  Is EMCOMM needed?  I can only say “SKYWARN”.  If you live in an area prone tornadoes you will find EMCOMM (or at least the SKYWARN part) life saving.

Even with live TV, Live Broadcast radio and all the RADAR in the world it was the feet on the ground (HAMs) that were informing the media and the rest of us where to duck for cover.

As far as people thinking Cell Phones are the end all be all… forget it.  For hours after the tornados the Cell service was useless.  Either from downed power lines, downed towers, or just jammed with calls way above and beyond what the system is designed for.

I would ask, if EMCOMM wasn’t needed why would towns and country bother with having a paid staff member as a liaison between Emergency Management and HAMs?  The answer is… they wouldn’t. 

I can see the point about the lights, vests, hard hats and the magnetic car door signs being a bit over the top… But if the cost doesn’t come out your pocket… who cares. 

To the remarks about When All Else Fails..  I kind of agree, if that happens I will not pickup a microphone.. it will be my AK.   I always say… 911 is for the folks that find your body.
However, that situation will not last forever and folks will need to pick up the pieces.  Society will need all the skilled technicians that can be found.  And having a pre trained communication network might come handy. Just saying.

As far as an ongoing push… Don’t be sheep.  If you’re not interested.. Don’t do it!
Logged
KB8VUL
Member

Posts: 110




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2012, 07:26:00 PM »

Only a few weeks back here is the Dallas Fort Worth area we were hit with 4 tornados all occurring at the same time.  Is EMCOMM needed?  I can only say “SKYWARN”.  If you live in an area prone tornadoes you will find EMCOMM (or at least the SKYWARN part) life saving.

Even with live TV, Live Broadcast radio and all the RADAR in the world it was the feet on the ground (HAMs) that were informing the media and the rest of us where to duck for cover.

As far as people thinking Cell Phones are the end all be all… forget it.  For hours after the tornados the Cell service was useless.  Either from downed power lines, downed towers, or just jammed with calls way above and beyond what the system is designed for.

I would ask, if EMCOMM wasn’t needed why would towns and country bother with having a paid staff member as a liaison between Emergency Management and HAMs?  The answer is… they wouldn’t. 

I can see the point about the lights, vests, hard hats and the magnetic car door signs being a bit over the top… But if the cost doesn’t come out your pocket… who cares. 

To the remarks about When All Else Fails..  I kind of agree, if that happens I will not pickup a microphone.. it will be my AK.   I always say… 911 is for the folks that find your body.
However, that situation will not last forever and folks will need to pick up the pieces.  Society will need all the skilled technicians that can be found.  And having a pre trained communication network might come handy. Just saying.

As far as an ongoing push… Don’t be sheep.  If you’re not interested.. Don’t do it!


Well I ask for a reasonable explanation and I got one.  I agree with the SkyWarn statements.  There is no current technology that will directly detect a tornado.  They are aware of the storm types, they know to look for 'the hook' but as far as detecting a funnel on the ground, it's a visual thing.  I also agree that there will need to be people that have different skill sets needed to pick up the pieces after what ever disaster rears its head.  The more obvious are the electrical linemen and telephone guys for basic services.  But communications, is a bog  part of the effort as well.  For the feet on the ground as well as the public safety, service and businesses as things rebuild.  SO I see the need.  I guess I always did without realizing it.  So that addresses those issues.  But the last one remains, those that take things a step too far... or more. 

I guess it's really a situation of what you remember, what sticks in your mind.  The one guy in a group that stands out in the crowd... does exactly that.  He is the one that you remember.  I guess I forgot that part somewhere along the way.  But, the thing I still don't see is the ham community, or more importantly the ARES / EMCOMM community and the league coming out and saying hey, this is not the way to present yourself.  Politely let the community safety folks know that you are available if needed.  Tell them what technology you can bring to the table and services that you can reasonably provide within a provided scope and make sure that you can provide those services when they call on you. 

And then give an actual list of ways not to act and actions not acceptable for ham operators. 

I hear time and time again that we are 'self policing'.  OK, if that is the case, then we need to do just that.
If some fool wants to go ambulance chasing, and giving the hobby a black eye, then maybe the league should send them a letter stating that isn't in the interest of the hobby, and to cease and desist.  If they fail to comply, then yank their license.
That is part of self policing.
And specific ARES groups that are allowing, condoning or encouraging such behavior need to have their credentials revoked and a new EC put in place that will ensure that as amateurs we present a professional outward appearance. 

We never even bother to properly Elmer newcomers to the hobby.  The people that get on 2 meters and operate as LID's using Q codes, HI HI and other irritating things are picked up by the newcomers and no one bothers the tell them it's not really acceptable to do these things.  So you get the noob doing ALOT of it, and no one will talk to them.  This eventually drives them away from the hobby, and we loose numbers. 
Logged
K1CJS
Member

Posts: 6034




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2012, 05:55:06 AM »

Yes, it seems that some ham operators forget there is more to emcomm than just 'assisting' a local emergency group or agency.  Some tend to forget the skywarn program, the passing of health and welfare messages by operators outside an emergency zone to others, or simply reporting an accident scene to another ham so he can call the local authorities.

There again, there are some that are still arguing simply to argue, without adding anything really useful to the discussion.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 05:56:46 AM by K1CJS » Logged
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2012, 08:54:13 AM »

"arguing simply to argue"  Roll Eyes

That would be you and the original poster, who does not deserve the effort of a long explanation by positive attitude hams, since you already know the answers and are just looking for an argument. I gave mine in a 5 and 1/2 line paragraph and he still kept pounding and calling Ecomm volunteers names. I guess no one pays attention to you fellows on a daily basis, so this is your "amplifier" to be heard.  Undecided

If you need attention, why don't you do something positive and write a nice article on Ecomm or if you are truly concerned about Ecomm activities in your area, get involved and change things?  Wink    
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 09:19:56 AM by KI4SDY » Logged
N0YXB
Member

Posts: 309




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2012, 11:15:40 AM »

"You know its strange that I ask a honest question and folks get all defensive about it."
"I don't know that I would call my situation socially challenged." Yes, that is a defensive statement!

When you start asking honest and rational questions and rid yourself of the imaginary demons that seem to haunt your ham experience, let me know. I am not usually a bragger, but if you will make those efforts of self-improvement and demonstrate progress, I will make an exception and share a lifetime of service (paid and volunteer) with you. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time with your grumpy foolishness and attracting other eHam.net trolls to this string. I am placing you on ignore to mark you, along with K1CJS and seeking logical conversation elsewhere.  Wink  

So much for your post on May 17th where you put CJS on ignore.  Methinks someone is a bit fond of arguing.

Logged

Vince
KI4SDY
Member

Posts: 1452




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2012, 06:34:49 PM »

Your on my ignore list as well for the same reasons. Notice that he and you were not part of the discussion on this string until he discovered my posts and started his usual stalking nonsense. Did he send you an e-mail encouraging you to add your negative comments for support ( he needs all the help he can get) or are you just keeping up your own stalking skills?  Kiss

Where is your Ecomm comment or are you just posting to harass and start another argument? That is the topic of this string, Ecomm. Not me, your friend or you. Smiley
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 07:33:54 PM by KI4SDY » Logged
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 12 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!