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Author Topic: Letting others talk if I am control operator?  (Read 2727 times)
KJAV
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« on: June 09, 2012, 09:52:41 AM »


I dug into the rules about "3rd party" communications and I think I understand what they are saying, but wanted to double check.

I am a brand new operator - just got my call published in the database yesterday and spent the evening making some contacts on the local repeater.  I've got two young kids about 5 years old.  They are actually quite interested in the new radio gear.  My son heard that first graders have passed the tech exam and he wants to give it a shot.  I know it'll be a while, but as long as he's interested, I wanted to let him talk on the air a bit.

If I understand the role of the control operator, I believe I can act as control operator, then let him talk.

I expect I would make the contact using my call as usual, then I'd basically say "my son wants to say hello", and as usual I'd say my call every few minutes and at the end of the conversation.  I would be right there acting as control operator the entire time.  I'm almost certain this is okay - even outside field day "kid's" events - I believe I can put him on the air like this at any time as long as we're in a band/mode allowed by my license.  Please someone let me know if I'm wrong on this.

To take the idea a step further - is it okay for another person to carry out the entire conversation using my callsign if I am actually the station operator, and I'm right there the entire time?  The thought being that my callsign identifies the station and the station operator, not necessarily the person speaking - so if the call the person speaking gives is my call, and I am currently acting as the station control operator, then this should be okay?

I'm pretty excited to see the kids interested in this.  My son is very technical and reads well, but I know that actually passing the test may be a long haul for him, but if he can actually talk on the air and know eventually he can have his own call and be able to fly without my being right there (or he can call me at work from the house, etc) - then I think he's much less likely to get discouraged and give it up.

Thanks.

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AC5UP
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 10:34:12 AM »

As long as you are in immediate and effective control of the transmitter, someone does a legal ID every 10 minutes or less, the frequency & mode chosen are within the limits of your license class, and no one uses the radio to score a deal on illegal drugs or promotes the violent overthrow of your local water & sewer board...

Should be no prob.     But you might consider hiding the mics when you're not at home lest one of the lil' darlin's get too handy with the PTT switch.

BTW: Every fall (I think) there is a Kids Day event on HF where Hams are invited to give local youth groups a little radio experience. The exchange is name, call, age, and your favorite color. Personally I think it's a subtle attempt to turn the yout of America into contesters, but that could be just me.

My favorite color is plaid.
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WB6BYU
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Posts: 12982




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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 10:45:43 AM »

And, while it probably isn't a problem on 2m, when they get excited about working DX on HF
one needs to be aware of the limitations on third party traffic with some countries.
(Basically it isn't permitted without some sort of agreement in place.)

We do the same thing on Field Day - Technicians can get experience operating across the
HF bands using the club callsign as long as there is a control operator with the appropriate
class license present.
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KB1LKR
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 01:08:46 PM »

"and no one uses the radio to... [promote] the violent overthrow of your local water & sewer board..."

TOO FUNNY! I was once on my town's Water and Sewer Board (we were known affectionately as "water rats")! Fortunately no one ever tried to overthrow us.

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KG4NEL
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 08:17:55 PM »

We do the same thing on Field Day - Technicians can get experience operating across the
HF bands using the club callsign as long as there is a control operator with the appropriate
class license present.

That was my introduction to ham radio - and then as a Tech in the years before I upgraded. Smiley
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N7NBB
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 03:02:20 PM »

Quote
Every fall (I think) there is a Kids Day event on HF where Hams are invited to give local youth groups a little radio experience. The exchange is name, call, age, and your favorite color.

Sure go right ahead and let the kids talk... as long as you (or another licensed operator) are there to supervise.  RIGHT THERE, not in the next room, not in the back yard mowing the lawn, etc.) 

not meaning to hijack this thread, but the scouting program has an excellent event called JOTA (Jamboree on the Air).  Our club hosts several groups of Girl Scouts, who of course talk to the Boy Scouts.  A year or so back we had teenage girls talking to group of teenage boys in Australia.  We had "sample exchanges and conversation starters printed out so the girls could refer to it if necessary.  One young lady decided to go "OFF SCRIPT", and ad-libed "ARE YOU CUTE?"  this caused quite a few giggles on both sides of the globe, and finally one DIFFERENT boy (in Australia) grabbed the mic and answered, "YES HE IS !". This set the entire group of our girls into an altogether DIFFERENT mind set, (because of the "way" the other boy answered) and... well let's just say LOCALLY, things went down hill rapidly after that.... but we recovered, and finished the QSO.   
Guess the point is kids can STILL find fun, make friends, and enjoy Amateur Radio, if only you provide the fulcrum to pry the iPod™ out of their grasp.  (and provide supervision too, I might add)
 
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K8AXW
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 10:09:09 PM »

NBB:  Great story!  It made me smile.  This is the kind of things that help make ham radio fun for all.... old timers as well as those who are simply observing.

One time an Aussie that I was talking to had a few observers in the shack.  As we discussed our countries I asked if it was true that the water went down the commode drain clockwise in Australia vs. counterclockwise here in America.

It caused an immediate uproar and most of them bolted to the bathroom to flush the toilet to see.  It was an enjoyable moment.
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KF7RIV
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 07:28:42 PM »

Thanks guys I was wondering the same thing. My kids ask all the time to talk and I wanted to be sure first.
Thanks again Smiley
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WA3SKN
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Posts: 5420




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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 05:49:50 AM »

This is not a problem until you get on HF and start working with DX stations.  Then it is OK with DX countries that we have a "third party agreement", but not OK with others.  As I last recall, we have agreements with 33 countries... so check the list!
73s.

-Mike.
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AC2EU
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 06:15:07 AM »

This is not a problem until you get on HF and start working with DX stations.  Then it is OK with DX countries that we have a "third party agreement", but not OK with others.  As I last recall, we have agreements with 33 countries... so check the list!
73s.

-Mike.

So you are saying that most of the DXCC entities are illegal?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 07:12:01 AM »

An unlicensed person (or one not holding a license permitting that frequency and mode)
talking on the radio is "third party traffic".  It is only permitted for them to speak to
operators in countries with which we have a "third party traffic agreement."  That rules
out most DX countries.
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VE5EIS
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 01:34:30 PM »

Maybe we need a legal opinion on this (and it might depend on the countries in question) but my understanding was that letting someone use your radio while you act as control operator is *not* third party traffic.  Third party traffic is when John tells me to tell Bob in Washington hello, and I go on the radio and tell Bob in Washington hello.  If I hand the mic to John and John tells Bob directly, this is second-party traffic.  John is the first party, and Bob is the second party.  I am the control operator for John and there is no third party.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 02:33:26 PM »

97.115 states that, with certain limitations, the 3rd party may participate in stating the message. That means to me that the FCC does indeed consider that it is 3rd party traffic even if the person is present and personally speaking into the microphone. It then follows that the person cannot legally speak to a country that does not have a 3rd party agreement with the U.S.

The only time it is not 3rd party traffic is if the control operator himself is generating and speaking the message (i.e. no other parties involved).

Even if the other person present is a licensed ham it is still 3rd party traffic UNLESS he has been designated a control operator of the station. That's contained in the FCC's Q&A section.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 02:39:03 PM by AA4PB » Logged
WB6BYU
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 04:10:57 PM »

Might be different in the Canadian regulations, of course.
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AD6KA
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 06:57:58 PM »

I don't know where you live, but be VERY
familiar with the machine and it's users *before*
letting any kids talk on it.  A couple of the 2m repeaters
around here sound like CB with better audio.
(Filthy language, rude comments, etc)
Kinda like 14.313 MHz now that I think of it....
Sad but true.

73, Ken  AD6KA
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