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Author Topic: Selling "airtime" on ham radio  (Read 114639 times)
K5TED
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Posts: 747




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« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »

Contests are based upon exchanges between stations, not control points.
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KE2TR
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Posts: 175




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« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2012, 08:15:12 AM »

What is funny is how some work a rare dx station, years ago I was into the DXCC thing and after I hit 200 and then some I dropped the who bag. What happened is I worked a 9V1 on 75mtr ssb along with two other stations from 1 land, there were only 3 of us that worked that station and we all got the qsl card to prove it, it was a close call contact and the LP was only open for 15min and then faded into the dust. A few weeks later I was doing a antenna job with a buddy at a qth of a ham that was on the top of the honor role, he had very simple antennas, 40ft tower with a TH6 and dipoles at 30ft for 40ty and 80ty meters. After we finished the job and we had some drinks at the ham's home he shows me a 9V1 qsl card for 75mtrs ssb, it was the same date I worked the same guy too. Well that night I was on that band for over 4 hours and knowing long path opening's on that band is like clockwork, I knew this guy didn't have a fart sniff chance that he worked the 9V but found out later that he knew the 9V1's JA QSL manager and that's how he got the card. I dropped all the DXCC stuff like a bomb, to me it was BS so after that I just kept a log for my own records and didn't care a rats ass about DXCC or Honor Roll, if that's what some ham's do to get there awards on the wall it did not interest me anymore. Maybe that why I really don't care about this thread that much cause DXCC is bullcrap IMO but contesting is what I ended up after that was a whole different ball game. You cant cheat, they verify the logs and when you place a scope in the top 5 in the US they go threw it like no-body's biz cause most of the guy's checking the log's also hold record's and if your score comes close they pull out all the stops to make sure you don't take there spot. Contesting is another ball game, its fun but the same stuff that goes around in the DXCC arena also happens in contesting. Ham's take both way to seriously and life is way to short for this childhood BS.
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12891




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« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2012, 09:04:19 AM »

Contests are based upon exchanges between stations, not control points.

Depends on the contest. For example, DXCC credit requires that the receiver, transmitter, and control point all be located in the same DXCC entity (i.e. country).
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K5TED
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Posts: 747




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« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2012, 11:50:18 AM »

K5TED, I like the description you gave.  This raises a good point on which I am confused, and I would appreciate your clarification (and others as well). 

If you will allow me to use you and me in an example to help me understand and learn....

Let us say you have a rocking, DX chasing ham shack.  TH11DX or one of those huge OptiBeam monsters on a 200 foot tower.  Then we get the word that OH2BH, Martti is headed back to Scarborough Reef for one last DXpedition before retiring.

No way am I going to work BS7H with my dipole and 100 watts with the pileup.  So I ask you (oh please oh please) may I come over to your shack to work "the reef?"  Say you do know me, we had some 807's at Dayton last year.  And I tell you I'll repay the favor...I'll pay for the replacement ring rotor for your 40 meter yagi at 100 feet on that tower since it burned out in September.  I NEED BS7H for Honor Roll.  You say sure, not needed to replace the ring rotor.  I insist, because without your generosity I am not getting BS7H.  (The scenario here is that I am exchanging something of value for the access to airtime from your QTH)

QUESTIONS: How do I sign when calling BS7H while sitting in your shack?  Can I just use my callsign?  Do I need to do the full "control operator" ID thing?  Is this legal, exchanging something of value for access to airtime from your shack?

Now let us extrapolate.  I am in NC, and it is not practical to travel to your QTH in San Antonio.  But you say "hey, I can do an internet setup and let you work him from wherever you are"  I say "Actually, I will be on the road and staying in a hotel in the evenings, to this is AWESOME."  You say "No problem."  I still insist on replacing your ring rotor, because I want BS7H REALLY BAD.   (The scenario again is that I am exchanging something of value for the access to airtime from your QTH, but I am accessing it remotely)

QUESTIONS: How do I sign when calling BS7H while sitting in your shack?  Can I just use my callsign?  Do I need to do the full "control operator" ID thing?  Is this legal, exchanging something of value for access to airtime from your shack and accessig it remotely?





------------------------ PART 97--AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Station Operation Standards Sec. 97.119 Station identification.

All Stations:  (a) Each amateur station, ..., must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions.

Let's consider the relationship of "end of each communication" and "during a communication" and "the source of the transmissions ". Also, let's stay within the assumption the control point and transmitter site are located in the U.S., under FCC authority.

I interpret a "communication" to be an exchange between two or more stations. I interpret "the source of the transmissions" to be the station transmitter. If I am the control operator of a station transmitter, then I give my callsign and the location of the transmitter, not the control point. In other words, I wouldn't state, "K5TED in Texas, operating remotely through K5TED transmitter in Nebraska". It would simply be, "K5TED Remote, Nebraska". If someone wants to know where the control point is, they can ask.

Why did I use my callsign to define the transmitter licensee?  It could be because the transmitter is located at my uncle's ranch in Nebraska. The transmitter site could actually be owned, lock stock and barrel, by my uncle, who might not even hold an amateur license. As long as he himself is not transmitting, everything is good and to the letter of the law. In fact, Uncle SI may not have ever even touched any of the equipment himself. Or he may have actually thrown the breaker to power up the shack. He could have contracted the entire station to be built by a third party commercial radio dealer, and may even have a service agreement with them to come on site as needed to do tower or transmitter maintenance. BUT...When I dial in and take control, it is MY station. Uncle Si can't turn it over to me, because he is not a ham. When I am not in control, it ceases to be a station. It is just a pile of equipment.

Now.... What if he isn't my Uncle. Or what if he is, but he charges me for electricity. What if he charges me a rental fee for the equipment. Does this change anything with respect to Part 97?

As far as donating time and equipment to a fellow ham, that's a given. I would expect the beneficiary to welcome the use of his station.

In my humble opinion, the use of "Airtime" to describe amateur radio communications in the context of this discussion is sort of inflammatory, and exists in solely as a red herring to distract from the real issues.

"Airtime" is a service provided as a vehicle for self promotion with a pecuniary interest. Even PSA's are counted as having some intrinsic value and are duly considered at license renewal time in the broadcast world. Casual or contest ham radio communications have no intrinsic monetary value to anyone besides radio manufacturers.

That's my take...


The FCC has stated that Internet remote is no different than using a very long mike cable, as far as they are concerned. The same rules apply.

What doesn't seem right to me in either senario is that you could operate the station using your call sign and take DXCC credit for working BS7H. What station location would you use on the QSL card? The remote station location or the location of your hotel room.

How about the situation where you use a 2M ht to repeater to Internet link to a DX 2M repeater and work a nearby station. Are you able to claim a 2M DX contact for DXCC credit?



You answered the DXCC question later on down the thread. If DXCC states the control point and station must be within the same entity, then that is the final answer. It doesn't change anything relative to station operation under FCC rules, but does recognize the need to follow contest rules in order to be considered eligible for specific awards. That brings up the point that if contest organizers want to stop this remote contesting in it's tracks, all they have to do is adopt the same rules as DXCC, and maybe take it further, stating that control points and stations must be local.

As for the 2m DX question, since DX by definition is based upon stations being separated by a specific delineator, that being political boundaries for the most part, it brings up the scenario where a ham is operating a 2m repeater in his own town, and communicating across the border to Canada, a scant 5 miles away. That technically is DX for some certificate purposes. Is he eligible for DX award point? What is the exact definition of DX in contests?

As long as he resides in the same entity as the repeater, and the DX station is indeed in another entity, it is a valid DX contact, in theory. It may not be eligible for points, however, unless the contest rules allow for repeater contacts.

Your question is more to the point that an operator uses a remote connection to a repeater that is local to the DX entity. In that case, no, he is absolutely not eligible for any DX trophy, since his "long mic cord" makes him directly connected to the transceiver that is local, not DX, to the station he contacted.
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K5TED
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« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2012, 12:25:22 PM »

Now, here's something to consider...

Say, for example, I have a permanent station set up at Uncle Si's farm in Nebraska. It's sort of a summer retreat for me. It's my station, I set it up, my license copy is hanging there in the shack. I'm the only ham operator who has ever used that equipment.

One winter, while I'm toiling away in San Antonio, pining for the big summer trip to Nebraska, Uncle Si decides to go on a cruise. He packs up, leaves the keys with the neighbor kid, leaving instructions to make sure Ol' Yeller is fed and watered while Uncle Si is away.

A couple days later, the neighbor kid sneaks into my summer retreat shack and starts flipping switches. Next thing you know he's calling CQ in the CW portion of 15m. He's not a ham. He has no license. He's yakking it up. Smarting off to anyone who dares confront him. Playing music. Reading poetry. Singing in a high falsetto with a funny accent. He's creating interference, and continues to do so every day for the next two weeks until the day before Uncle Si returns.

By now, many stations along the Eastern Seaboard, Gulf and West coasts, Japan, Greenland, not to mention Latvia and a guy named Sven operating MM from a trawler off Madagascar have heard my station transmitting unidentified for hours on end, breaking most every rule in the book.

Over the past week, a Nebraska OO has triangulated the transmissions back to my shack. He's got it out for me, and reports the infractions, complete with logs and recordings. It's cut n' dried. My station did it. I had no idea my station was doing it, or I'd have dialed in and turned it off. I did have remote control capability...

Am I liable? Is the kid liable? Is Uncle Si liable?

Who pays the fine?



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WD4ELG
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »

Just my opinion...

Uncle Si is responsible for securing the gear, because it's on his property.

You are responsible for making sure Uncle Si secures the gear, because you are the only ham who operates or even knows about Part 97, etc.

IF the FCC doles out a fine, I think you both get hit with one.
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12891




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« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2012, 05:00:31 PM »

I'd say that as the station licensee you are the one who is responsible for ensuring the proper operation of the station. If you have authorized a control operator then you and he are jointly responsible. Now if you had the station properly secured (i.e. a lock on the door or a key switch on the power) then you have made an effort to secure the station and the FCC is unlikely to access you any fines once you respond to them with the details. If, on the other hand, your station was readily available to the kid and no one warned him against using it then as the licensee you will probably be liable.

By the way, I still have a cypher lock on my hamshack door that was placed their years ago to prevent the kids from gaining access.
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W3WN
Member

Posts: 208




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« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2012, 08:52:05 AM »

Now, here's something to consider...

Say, for example, I have a permanent station set up at Uncle Si's farm in Nebraska. It's sort of a summer retreat for me. It's my station, I set it up, my license copy is hanging there in the shack. I'm the only ham operator who has ever used that equipment.

One winter, while I'm toiling away in San Antonio, pining for the big summer trip to Nebraska, Uncle Si decides to go on a cruise. He packs up, leaves the keys with the neighbor kid, leaving instructions to make sure Ol' Yeller is fed and watered while Uncle Si is away.

A couple days later, the neighbor kid sneaks into my summer retreat shack and starts flipping switches. Next thing you know he's calling CQ in the CW portion of 15m. He's not a ham. He has no license. He's yakking it up. Smarting off to anyone who dares confront him. Playing music. Reading poetry. Singing in a high falsetto with a funny accent. He's creating interference, and continues to do so every day for the next two weeks until the day before Uncle Si returns.

By now, many stations along the Eastern Seaboard, Gulf and West coasts, Japan, Greenland, not to mention Latvia and a guy named Sven operating MM from a trawler off Madagascar have heard my station transmitting unidentified for hours on end, breaking most every rule in the book.

Over the past week, a Nebraska OO has triangulated the transmissions back to my shack. He's got it out for me, and reports the infractions, complete with logs and recordings. It's cut n' dried. My station did it. I had no idea my station was doing it, or I'd have dialed in and turned it off. I did have remote control capability...

Am I liable? Is the kid liable? Is Uncle Si liable?

Who pays the fine?
(1)  The kid is liable, and pays a fine for unlicensed operation of an amateur station.  Presuming that they can prove it was actually him operating, of course.
(2)  You might be liable for the access to the station (it's your equipment, and your license, so it's your liability, not Uncle Si's).  A lot depends on the condition you left the station in.

If you simply had it sitting in a room, no locks, everything plugged in & ready to go... a case could be made that your negligence in not securing the equipment was a factor in the illegal operation.

On the other hand, if the room had a lock, or the equipment had transmit-prevention measures... you'd taken a reasonable precaution against illegal operation.  (And the kid is also liable for breaking & entering too, let's not forget that).  Did you leave the mikes plugged in?  The antennas?  If you did not, and the kid had to go to some effort to re-assemble the station in order to (improperly & illegally) use it, that is additional proof that you took reasonable steps to prevent the station from being used.

Naturally, your attorney can give you a more definitive (and legally binding) answer.  IANALNDIPOOTV.
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W7KKK
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Posts: 374




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« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2012, 08:45:52 AM »

It does not matter at this point.
You have done your thing by reporting it and the ARRL says it's not illegal.
So what's the point now?
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KH6DC
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Posts: 642




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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2012, 09:21:31 PM »

It does not matter at this point.
You have done your thing by reporting it and the ARRL says it's not illegal.
So what's the point now?

The FCC also says it's legal.
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73 and Aloha,
de Delwyn, KH6DC
K0IZ
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Posts: 737




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« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2012, 06:16:04 PM »

Is this post still going on .... and on..... and on.  Enough already.
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N1CX
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Posts: 127




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« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2012, 09:19:51 AM »

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I think I just pee'd myself laughing.  Grin

Big bucks in this stuff. They're advertising here now. Wait til the full page ads show up in QST roflmao

I still offer my ts820 if you want to connect to the internet roflmao this is not ham radio nor is it in the spirit of ham radio.

Again I wonder out loud how these local towns will deal with these systems being installed in residential locations when it's a for profit business.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 09:22:37 AM by N1CX » Logged
KE2TR
Member

Posts: 175




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« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2012, 04:45:54 PM »

If your still using a 820 and that's the radio you use all the time no wonder why you have such a beef with station using better gear than you, I knew there was  reason why you have such a hardon for these guys. You should go on there site and take a spin, that station is unreal how well it perform's but you having such a simple veiw on this whole subject I think it might just make you feel somewhat small. I love these crackpots that dont like anything bigger than what they have.
Jim
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12891




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« Reply #88 on: December 29, 2012, 06:14:13 PM »

It must be a great thrill to get DXCC using equipment installed and maintained by other people. Want to work Japan just "click click" and you are operating from a monster west coast station. Want to work Europe, "click click" and you are operating from a monster east coast station. Of course DXCC no longer means much except that you know how to use a mouse and keyboard  Grin
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KE2TR
Member

Posts: 175




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« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2012, 09:12:59 PM »

DXCC IMO has been a lost cause for years, there are way to many ham's that have qsl cards for station's they never worked yet they have credit for these. I don't think the guys who are renting air time are guys that are big DX'ers, just ham's that cant have station's and want a dam good one for when they get on, hey if they have the money that's fine for them. I know in about 5 year's my wife is going to want to get a condo down south but still keep a house in the NE and I will for sure remote my station on that time, there is no way I want to op qrp with wet noddle antenna's in a friggin condo so remote station's do have there place.
Maybe some of these ham's might be handycaped and cannot even have a sniff of installing a station but there able to pay the rent of the station like these instead, you ham's that are so against this wanna tell these guys they cant have a little fun. N1CX has a problem with this cause just maybe he did not come up with this idea 1st and he may not like the guys do in this, sounds like a personal problem to me cause the ARRL says it leagal and so does the FCC so why all of you make all the fuss is because you want something to bitch about, many in this hobby are turning into compaining old fart's.
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