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Author Topic: KX3 / Sherwood Engineering Inc.  (Read 46229 times)
KE5JPP
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 05:20:33 AM »

>>>Wow, you are way out in left field here.  Where do you come up with the idea that direct sampling SDRs have poor dynamic range?  The Perseus, which is a direct sampling SDR, is in the top 4 receivers of the beloved Sherwood Engineering list for dynamic range.  Way above many other conventional analog receivers.  It was in the top three until the KX3.<<<

And you don't read.

I will repeat, if you want to sample and very high speeds needed for very high frequencies your have to trade bits in the A->D conversion or limit your frequency span.  If you limit the number of bits you limit the dynamic range unless you add RF gain or conversion so you can add agc to the system to avoid overloading the A/D.  

It takes 20bits to express any number between and about 1million or 100DB. If you sampling 20 bits at
at least 8x the input frequency that's 160Mbits/S for a 1mhz signal  For 100Mhz that is a mere 16Gbits second.  That is far faster than most flash A/Ds that are usually under 10bits (o to 1023 or 30db).
Since systems are not quite that fast you either down covert or use fewer bits to to keep the data rate believable.  


I do read believe me.  You should do some reading before making a fool of yourself here.  Obviously, you are a hopeless case, but I will clarify some things in hope that your ignorance does not spread to people who are new to SDRs and how they work.

A sampled signal picks up dynamic range through the process of filtering and decimation.  If you have a signal that has been sampled by a 16 bit ADC at 125 MSPS, and you decimate the sampled signal down to 10 kSPS (enough bandwidth for demodulation of most Ham modes) the dynamic range after sampling becomes the 16 bit ADC dynamic range (96 dB theoretical) + the process gain of 38 dB (see equation below) = 134 dB.  Of course 16 bit ADCs never reach their 96 dB theoretical dynamic range, the ENOB (effective number of bits) is less.  For example the LTC2208 reaches about 75 dB at 125 MSPS.  So even in an imperfect world, 75 dB + 38 dB = 113 dB which is still very acceptable.

process gain = 10 * log10( adc sample rate/(2 * final sample rate) )

10 + log10(125e6/(2 * 10e3)) = 38 dB

Where people get confused in between QSD based SDRs and direct sampling SDRs and what determines the dynamic range.

In a QSD based SDR, the RF spectrum is down-converted to the audio frequency range by the QSD which gives you two analog channels, I and Q.  The analog I and Q channels are sampled by an audio ADC at typically 48, 96, or 192 kHz (since these are common sound card frequencies).  The DSP process typically does not do any decimation of the audio ADC sample rate, so it too runs at 48, 96, or 192 kHz.  The dynamic range is determined primarily by the ENOB of the audio ADC used.  Typical 16 bit ADCs have an ENOB of only around 12-13 bits, which gives you only 78 dB at the best.  The best 24 bit audio ADCs have an ENOB of around 20-21 bits which gives you somewhere around 124 dB which more than adequate dynamic range.  There are two problems with QSD based SDRs:  The first is the I/Q balance problem which determines image suppression.  The second is the widest bandwidth that can be digitized is determined by the sample rate capability of audio ADCs, which is typically 192 kHz.  The I/Q signals are generated in the analog domain.  It is impossible to have perfect I/Q balance because of component tolerances, etc… so the I/Q inbalance must be corrected after the I and Q channels are digitized by the audio ADC.  Unfortunately, the I/Q inbalance is not stable over time, temperature, frequency, impedance, and component aging.  You can never have perfect I/Q gain and phase matching between two analog circuits.

In a direct sampling SDR, the RF spectrum is directly sampled at the ADC sample rate which needs to be at least twice the maximum bandwidth that you want to cover.  For example, if you sample at 125 MHz, you can theoretically digitize signals up to 62.5 MHz unless used in undersampling mode.  Most high speed ADCs have input bandwidths far exceeding their sample rate so they can be used in undersampling applications.  For example the 16 bit LTC2208 is responsive up to about 700 MHz.  Because of this the ADC is usually preceded by a low pass filter that cuts off at a maximum of ½ the sampling rate.  The high speed ADC samples the RF signals directly and feeds them to the DDC, typically implemented in a FPGA.  The signal at this point is in the digital realm and is represented as 16 bits.  The I and Q channels are generated in the DDC in the digital realm, so the I/Q balance is essentially perfect and not subject to analog circuit component variations.  Direct sampling SDRs do not have the I/Q inbalance problems of the QSD that cause poor image suppression. The DDC filters and decimates the ADC’s sample rate down to some sample rate the DSP process can handle.   The DSP process can be implemented in the PC or in an embedded DSP processor.  Due to the filtering and decimation in the DDC, you pick up dynamic range and the I/Q samples are typically represented as 24 or 32 it samples when they exit the DDC – more than enough bits to handle the dynamic range.  Thinking that the number of bits the ADC has is the primary determining factor in the dynamic range is incorrect due to the “processing gain”.  Also, because you are not dependent on a sound card ADC like the QSD, the sample rates can be much higher than 192 kHz.  The Perseus can process 1600 kHz bandwidth in real time by setting the DDC sample rate to 2 MSPS, and the QS1R can process 2 MHz bandwidth in real time by setting the DDC sample rate to 2.5 MSPS.  Both SDRs can record to disk at those rates and be played back later.

If you think that process gain is just some mathematical trick, anyone with a direct sampling SDR can easily see the real results of process gain in the spectrum window by noting the spectrum noise floor.  As you decrease the sampling rate, the noise floor also drops by a predictable amount.  Each halving of the sample rate results in a 3 dB decrease in noise floor (or a 3 dB increase in sensitivity).  This is a direct result of process gain.

Quote
The LTC2208 is only 16bits so there must be an agc system to allow a over 100db range as the 16bits is 0 to 65535 or 48db between detection threshold and saturation of the A/D.  Oh, that 100DB is the SFDR not the DR which is lower. 

This is where you have erred.  You have forgotten about the dynamic range gained as a result of filtering and decimation, or process gain as I discussed above.  None of the currently available direct sampling SDRs, such as the Perseus, QS1R, Winradio Excalibur, or RF Space SDRs, use any kind of AGC before the ADC.  The dynamic range due to decimation of the high speed ADC’s sample rate is adequate without AGC in front of the ADC.  Even most QSD based SDRs, like the Flex Radio SDRs and the SoftRocks, do not have analog AGC.  The use of a 24 bit audio ADC with about 20 bits of ENOB gives adequate dynamic range.

The LTC2208 ADC's SFDR is around 75-77 dB.  But you still must take into account the process gain, which in the example above is 38 dB, so the SFDR is still over 113 dB on the output of the DDC.  You have to look at the ADC and the DDC as a system when talking about direct sampling SDRs.

Quote
Direct to 63.5mhz and undersampling to 500mhz.  What does SSB voice at 432 sound like when you undersample?   How do you handle images above 62.5mhz, higher?

In the case of my QS1R, there is an option to bypass the low pass filter in front of the ADC which I have done.  When I want to use my QS1R below 62 MHz, I insert an external 55 MHz LPF.  When I want to use my QS1R above 62 MHz, I remove the external LPF and insert an external band pass filter that is appropriate for the frequency range I am interested in.  Above 62 MHz, the QS1R is used in the undersampling mode.  The external BPFs suppress the images of frequencies outside of the band of interest.  At 432 MHz, SSB sounds exactly the same as SSB at 30 MHz.  The software takes care of the spectral inversion and the frequency readout correction, so that when I want to listen to USB on 432 MHz, the display reads 440 MHz and the mode selected is actually USB.

Quote
Now you confirm something I'd figured you didn't understand.  Undersampling is downconversion.
How is that done.. well the sample and hold is run at 130mhz so that amounts to the conversion
osc and it will wrap half that or 62.5 mhz down in the direct sampling frequency.  And what happens at exactly 62.5mhz or 192.5mhz?

You are the one who does not understand here.  If I want to listen to 192.5 MHz, I insert a BPF centered on 192.5 MHz with its lower cutoff frequency somewhere above 62.5 MHz.  So signals below 62.5 MHz do not reach the ADC.  The same at any other frequency range I am interested above 62.5 MHz and below the max of 500 MHz.  So I can listen to any frequency between 10 kHz and 500 MHz in bands of 62.5 MHz, by inserting the correct LPF or BPF filters in front of the ADC, in this case the QS1R RF input connector.

Gene

P.S. I have no gripe with Rob Sherwood.  I believe his numbers are accurate.  I have only stated clearly and multiple times that the determining decision on what radio to buy should not be determined solely by numbers on the Sherwood list (or can't you read?).  To refresh your memory, you are the one who jumped in and took issue with the statements I made about the I/Q balance issue with the KX3.




« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 06:20:41 AM by KE5JPP » Logged
KE5JPP
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 03:04:04 PM »

Meant to say:

"The software takes care of the spectral inversion and the frequency readout correction, so that when I want to listen to USB on 432 MHz, the display reads 432 MHz and the mode selected is actually USB."

Gene
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2012, 03:07:59 AM »

Correction:

If I want to listen to 192.5 MHz, I insert a BPF centered on 192.5 MHz with its lower cutoff frequency somewhere above 187.5 MHz.  So signals below 187.5 MHz do not reach the ADC.

with LPF inserted:
0 - 62.5 MHz

undersampling with BPFs inserted:

62.5 MHz - 125.0 MHz

125.0 MHz - 187.5 MHz

187.5 MHz - 250 MHz

250 MHz - 312.5 MHz

312.5 MHz - 375 MHz

up to approx. 500 MHz in 62.5 MHz wide bands

Gene
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KD7TWI
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2013, 09:34:16 PM »

But here are the real questions for Gene (KE5JPP), how realistic is it that I take what you are talking about backpacking for a week?  Will it be in the same cost range as the KX3? 

We have different tool for different jobs, I don't believe the rig(s) you are talking about would be the tool for most Ham's out there.  I bet the KX3 will, has, and continues to outsell what you are talking about.  Some things make sense, some don't, I can get excellent performance in the palm of my hand and be quite happy. 

Yes, I did drink the Kool-Aid, and will be selling off most all my other gear that the KX3 outperforms. 
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ZENKI
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« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2013, 06:54:44 PM »

Get a FT857, its cheap, it has reserve power output and  does everything from DC to daylight. Its small, convenient and has all the flexibility that you need. The money that you save you can buy a decent LiPo battery backs so you can run the radio at a realistic 20 watts output or more and be heard.  The FT857  with a lipo battery can just be tucked into jacket or ladies handbag.  Where else can you get such a small convenient 100 watt radio? There is no doubt that the KX3 is a beautifully engineered high performance radio, however it is the least convenient radio and least flexible radio available. I dont even want to think about carrying a KX3 and KXPA100 around,  this  combination must be some kind of cruel joke on portable operators.

A Ft857 is not going to overload  and make your life miserable  because you have  50 db less dynamic range. Hams are really having flights of fantasy
thinking that they can use the receiver performance of something like the KX3 when operating portable. Frankly speaking  the extra power is worth more than
the 50db pie in sky  receiver figures that wont be noticed.  You really have to be a pragmatic and realistic and  dont  lace your koolaid with drugs when making these decisions. Sure if you like ticking boxes on paper for a home contest rig and big antennas the numbers games  are very important and more is better.

The realities of the ionosphere, poor antennas and noise dictates more more how your transmitter and receiver  works when operating portable. This is before we talking about splatter and keyclicks that ruins  your hearing ability by 50db before your receiver overloads. I know in their minds KX3 operators and others with super radios have special secret techniques  for getting rid of splatter, keyclicks and noise that us mere mortals dont have.  They can mystically convert their RX performance into TX power by relying on voodoo. I prefer to rely on a knob or menu and increase my TX power in the smallest available radio  package available.

I used a FT857 operating in the CQWW/dxpedition from an island, 10,000 QSO's Pounding signals on all bands, never once did i say what a POS or what a what crap receiver. It just did the job. When i connect the FT857 to my antennas at home  I jump up and down and say what a POS where is my K2 or KX3! Yep I do own one and appreciate the marvels of receiver numbers while smoking a Cuban e and drinking a fine red when using big antennas! The KX3 will always be on my desk at home, since I also use 2 HF manpacks more than all my other radios because they more practical and convenient.

I operate portable a  lot and I will gladly take 10db gain on TX than 40db on the RX numbers. Its very simple most stations that I hear are loud enough even when using a simple portable antenna. The real  question and problem   is always this,  is my signal is loud enough to be heard? The question is never  "is my receiver the worlds best for my ego?. The answer for most qrp/portable stations  to this question is NO my signal is never  loud enough, so why be so anal about receiver performance when this is hardly a problem that is worth mentioning?

The QRP community  have a unhealthy obsession with receiver performance  and choosing a arbitrary power level that does little for the enjoyment or making  portable operation more fun. Yet the thing  that is the most important factor, that is being heard loud and clear by using the  highest possible power,  they criticize. It really shows how unhealthy and stupid this debate has become.  It also shows how  emotional and poor their technical thinking has become.

At the end of the day you can buy a KX3 and you will be happy, however it will always be lacking because it does not have the ability to go beyond 10 watts. You need to buy the highly inconvenient and expensive KXPA100 that is just a mess of inconvenience.  Even if I was making the decision today again I would still buy a FT857 because its 100 watt package is just so convenient. When I go on holiday the FT857 will come along again because its so small and convenient. When I finally find a situation where I need the worlds best portable receiver I will look at using the KX3. My dream for this day is when i get a opportunity to connect my KX3 to one of the shortwave broadcast ALLISS Curtain antenna arrays. The KX3 will definitely be needed the FT857 will be the equivalent of a crystal set!

It's all  a matter of reality, perspective and balance.  There is an unhealthy  obsession in the ham community with receiver performance numbers  and very little regard for TX performance specifications . In reality its the TX side of the chain that will yield the greatest dividend today which is largely being ignored by the manufacturers.  An increase of even 3bd in TX power from a portable radio is worth more that 20db or even 40db of receiver performance. You can see the stupidity of the RX TX imbalance  when so much more would have been gained produced a radio with 3db more output than 20db more receiver dynamic range. These days with all the excellent battery technology available producing a 25 watt battery powered transceiver would have been more beneficial than a radio with 100db IMD dynamic range.

At the end  we are not buying pacemakers that will save your life when you use it or buy the wrong one. So whatever radio you decide to buy you will be happy with thats just how hams and the ham market is. We just dont need arguments about receiver performance being the sole determining factor for making portable/qrp operation fun and successful.  A few db on TX is worth a lot more than 20db or more receiver performance in my book.


But here are the real questions for Gene (KE5JPP), how realistic is it that I take what you are talking about backpacking for a week?  Will it be in the same cost range as the KX3? 

We have different tool for different jobs, I don't believe the rig(s) you are talking about would be the tool for most Ham's out there.  I bet the KX3 will, has, and continues to outsell what you are talking about.  Some things make sense, some don't, I can get excellent performance in the palm of my hand and be quite happy. 

Yes, I did drink the Kool-Aid, and will be selling off most all my other gear that the KX3 outperforms. 
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W7ASA
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Posts: 254




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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2013, 08:07:22 PM »

Mr. Z,

Wow - your posting contains so many words and so little actual information.  

Nothing wrong with the FT-897/857 I've owned both and electronically, they're essentially the same radio in a different physical configuration, and a lot of fun.  Also they draw a LOT of power, and have little cross-over market share with the KX3. They ARE great for mobile (857) and transportable (857 / 897 ) due to at least their higher power consumption.

Let's look at the basics:

KX3:  150mA weight 1.4 pound + earbuds, Batteries, key, antenna of choice.

Your Listed Field Radios -

CODAN manpack :       ~15 pounds with accessories.  Power consumption not listed

FT-897               :       8.6 pounds plus antenna, ATU accessories and batteries.  Rx: 1 AMP

FT-857               :       2.1 pounds plus antenna, ATU accessories  and batteries. Rx: 1 AMP

>>>====>      You have stated that you do not mind the lower performance of the receivers as compared to the KX3.


So - for all that extra weight, you choose reduced receiver performance, significant loss of selectivity, HUGE increase in power consumption. EVEN on receive Zenki's choice = 6.66 x the current consumption on receive.

KX3 = 12W listed (integer math, let's call it 12.5 Watt)

12.5 to 100 Watts = 9 dB. That is only 1.5 S-unit.

If you personally think that it's worth all the extra size weight and power consumption, to gain roughly 1.5 S-unit on transmit. Well, if the hotel staff carrying your radio luggage to your poolside table is well paid, then I suppose that it's perfectly fine.



 However, for a person who actually backpacks, or just generally carries their own loads for a significant amount of time ...



- your choice of radio load-out makes no sense, which mystifies many of us when you make it seem as though you need to machete' your way through triple canopy jungle en route to some remote part of the Kalimantan on a routine basis, hence your need for full mil radios.  If you LIKE them - then all is fine, please tell us how you use them in the real world; that would be interesting.  However, when you say that Elecraft missed the mark with their wildly popular KX series, then perhaps you should use your own money for the Zenki-doo-dah Jungle Radio Company and please advise us of your superior success.



de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._
















« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 08:30:21 PM by W7ASA » Logged
W7ASA
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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2013, 09:40:38 PM »

Before you jump on it, by 'integer math' I was stating the final product: 12.5 to 100 Watts = 9 dB.  No reason for fractional dB in this case.

Again - 857/895 are fine rigs.  It's your emotional , unsupported statements against the KX3 and/or lightweight QRP which -for me- is the crux of this discussion.


de Ray
W7ASA ..._  ._
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W1JKA
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Posts: 1770




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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2013, 03:21:23 AM »

Reply #1 repeated: It would be interesting to see Sherwood get out of his own forest and make a comparison list of his lab rat radios after he set them free in the real woods.
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AD6KA
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Posts: 2238




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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2013, 04:21:39 AM »

Again - 857/895 are fine rigs.  It's your emotional , unsupported statements against the KX3 and/or lightweight QRP which -for me- is the crux of this discussion.
de Ray, W7ASA ..._
  ._
Thank you for posting this Ray.
With all due respect to this UNID ham, if you've read one or two of Zenki's posts,
you've read them all. I don't even bother anymore. The "Ignore" button
is very useful.

Geeze....isn't ham radio supposed to be a hobby?
I.E. Webster "A pursuit outside one's regular occupation
engaged in especially for relaxation"

Isn't it about just having FUN with what you have?

I think if you gave Zenki a 10 pound solid gold, diamond encrusted
pepper mill, he would dump it out and try to find fly shit in the pepper.
73, Ken  AD6KA
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W7ASA
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Posts: 254




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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2013, 10:36:39 AM »

Hi Ken,

Yes - you make a good point. These Z-postings repeat the same unsupportable nonsense ad nausium.  Time for the ignore button.  Primarily, I didn't want his disinformation being taken as actual fact by those who might want to begin having fun with QRP & remote radio operations.

We can all disagree on many things and have an enjoyable, constructive discussion right here on the forum. However, - ultimately - radio physics is a math function, regardless of endless repeats of Z-nonsense which violate the laws of physics, proven by actual practice in the real world.

-...-

GTG - I'm rebuilding my old SW40+ and the soldering iron is HOT.



"See" You On The Radio,


de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:14:50 AM by W7ASA » Logged
AA4GA
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Posts: 120


WWW

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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2013, 08:21:07 PM »

Primarily, I didn't want his disinformation being taken as actual fact by those who might want to begin having fun with QRP & remote radio operations.
And that is precisely the problem with people like "Zenki"!  As you say, he can operate however he chooses...more power to him (so to speak!).  But he really doesn't have a handle on reality...or a callsign, apparently.
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N9AOP
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Posts: 149




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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2013, 03:26:38 AM »

Zenki,
There are radios out there that come up to your preached expectations.  Harris Falcon is one and the other is made by Rhode and Schwartz.  Even Codan makes a good one.  You should start encouraging fellow hams to look at them.  At least that way the air waves would not be polluted with extraneous RF.  I use a Falcon from time to time and it is a real piece of work.
Art
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KF7DS
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Posts: 191




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« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2013, 09:11:50 AM »

I enjoy qrp often and also enjoy running 100w., have owned a kx3 and now own an Argonaut VI (like it more than kx3 as it has better audio though it is not backpack portable) for home use through my base station antennas.

Zenki makes excellent points and you all should not be so dismissive. I operate portable a lot too and take my Eagle as it can play the entire power range so I can adjust to changing conditions. Zenki uses a Yaesu for same reasons. In the end, portable antennas are the weak link in the chain and any amount of hi end RX performance isn't going to overcome that unless, of course, you can take a good antenna with you.

Don KF7DS
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W7ASA
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Posts: 254




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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2013, 12:42:03 PM »

Hi Don,

I can't speak for the others, but "Good Antenna" depends upon desired communication & whether you are carrying your load on your back, or having it carried by some other means, such as a car. However, the dB comparison of 5, 12, 20 Watts remains constant on the same antenna. If I am on a KX3 at full power (12W) and switch to a 20 Watt manpack, the difference at the receiver is well less than 3 dB , that is under hald an S-unit.  On HF, it's basically immeasurable on a received outside of groundwave.  If a person WANTS to do this - I am all for it and frankly, really enjoy talking to the pedestrian mobile guys and mil-surplus users (I used to do both). It's the spout & ignore method of posting from Mr.Z which does not work.

--- In The Real World ---

For me, after decades of wilderness radio operation (some of it professional) , the weight -v- efficiency ratio for an antenna for actual operation in the back-country came down to a dipole almost every time, deployed high in the trees for long shots or low dipole for mainly NVIS out to a few hundred miles to keep my friends informed of my location and status.  These days, my daily skeds are QRP to QRP to my friends wire antenna out of his apartment window over 800 miles away. The reliability rate is so close to 100% in our sked as be considered excellent. Same with my wilderness skeds over the decades, which were often from very remote locations in the U.S. north West (and elsewhere) where access was only by foot, horse or bush plane. I also hiked much of the Colorado/Utah Rockies with QRP. Dipole efficiencies are quite high - not what I would consider a poor or compromise antenna.

If a person is strictly a DX hunter, accustomed to high gain beam antennas, at tremendous height for very long range DX collecting, they probably find their beam set-up great for very long range/low take-off angle paths, but it's a very poor choice for working a few hundred miles from home using low band, NVIS/high angle of take-off. Anything requiring tower sections, guying and etc.is not something that is going into a backpack for long range ruck-humping. There are some mini-beams and etc. on the market and for the DX focus, maybe this is closer to what is desired for those who focus on DX. For me, I was more interested in contact Boulder than Borneo.

It is not either ultra-light QRP or heavy/high power, it's a matter of what do you want to accomplish?  If Mr. Z or anyone else wants to use any legal system for their fun - outstanding ! - and I'd REALLY love to read about how it all worked out.  If he's simply repeating his old 5, or 10 Watts is insufficient, but 20 Watts is required silliness -regardless of the dB/S-unit math- it's a lost cause trying to converse with him so far, though many have tried.
 
-...-

Driving to a spot and setting-up is enjoyable - I've done that a lot and even the normal size & weight ham gear is perfectly suitable, especially with a car battery right there for power. (also BT&DT). In fact, now that my body won't let me go do what I used to do, that's more a mode of operation for me, should I choose to do it.

If you have the power and can use it - there's no law against that and I'd bet that you'll have a great time.  QRP is not a religion with me.  However, when high power is not supportable due to weight, size, recharge and etc. QRP levels are a tremendous amount of communication for the 'count your ounces' crowd who carry their load and for many others who also 'just enjoy it'.

As AD6KA posted earlier: 

"A pursuit outside one's regular occupation
engaged in especially for relaxation"

Isn't it about just having FUN with what you have?


If we're having fun and not harming others, we're probably doing it right; whether QRP, QRO or somewhere in between.


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._  ._
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KD7TWI
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Posts: 21




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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2013, 03:12:44 PM »


Zenki makes excellent points and you all should not be so dismissive. I operate portable a lot too and take my Eagle as it can play the entire power range so I can adjust to changing conditions. Zenki uses a Yaesu for same reasons. In the end, portable antennas are the weak link in the chain and any amount of hi end RX performance isn't going to overcome that unless, of course, you can take a good antenna with you.

Don KF7DS

You are being very nice to this Zenki character and I don't think you should be.  It seems he makes a habit of trolling this QRP forum continually stating how either QRP is stupid or unreasonable with his statements.  It is obvious he has a large chip (log) on his shoulder about Elecraft and is in bed with Yeasu. I did rebut some of his bloviating in the past until I found it worthless.  This is a QRP forum, about QRP, if Z does not like QRP then he should take his opinions elsewhere as they are not appreciated here unless he has something useful to say about QRP.  Its obvious he's a troll, don't feed the trolls

As a disclaimer I have Elecraft, Kenwood, Icom, Ameritron, Alpha, and yes, Yeasu radio equipment.   

Kirk
KD7TWI
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