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Author Topic: W9INN...SSD-4C (60ft) Spacer Saver Dipole HELP!  (Read 4543 times)
KF2YR
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Posts: 10




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« on: August 24, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »

The XYL mistakenly threw away a box that I had my W9INN Antenna in... It was a 4 band (80, 40, 20,& 15 Meter) Dipole with a total length of 60ft.... The antenna work very well for many years, but I took it down when we re-sided the house! The Gentleman that built it, Bill-W9INN, is SK now... I don't have room for  anything longer then a 60 ft wire & I am hoping that someone else has this antenna and could give me some of the measurements for it!
I seem to remember Bill (the designer/manufacturer ) told me that the antenna used a full sized 15M dipole, then a coil that he called a Resonactor, and then a length of wire to finish off the 40 meter leg....And then spaced aprox 1 ft above that he had a full sized 20M dipole, a coil, and then the remaining length needed to resonate on 75/80 meters.....
DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ONE that they could give me the measurements off of?Huh
THANKS for any help that you can give!!!
Jim
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W9GB
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Posts: 2626




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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2012, 04:16:52 PM »

Quote
The XYL mistakenly threw away a box that I had my W9INN Antenna in.
It was a 4 band (80, 40, 20,& 15 Meter) Dipole with a total length of 60 feet.
Jim --

William E. "Bill" Fanckboner, W9INN, of Mt Prospect, Illinois passed away July 30, 2004.
http://www.qsl.net/n0nv/w9inn.html

To build the W9INN antenna, Bill normally used the Unadilla W2AU, or equivalent center insulator and the long Unadilla end insulators (address corona) for his antennas.
He used Dacron rope for tying together elements (fan dipole).
http://www.unadilla.com/?cat=6

14 AWG annealed copper wire with a single protective UV coating was used throughout.
Pres Jones, N8UG at The Wireman can likely source that specific antenna wire or equivalent, if you desire.
http://www.thewireman.com/antennap.html

The custom part of a W9INN antenna, that Bill made, were the Resonactor coils
used to load (shorten) the overall dipole length.  
He would hang wire stubs, for specific fine tuning of each resonactor coil. These lengths are typically 12 inches to a maximum of 24 inches.
See K7MEM below, for insight into similar approach.  W9INN built a fan dipole version.

The W9INN antennas were built and tuned in an Inverted-V configuration, with a 45 foot apex.

I can only provide to you, what other owners, or friends of Bill have scanned (PDF).
Bill designed and hand-built a number of custom antennas for his customers,
including the MPD-5C-78, MPD-2 and MDX-8C "hideaway" dipoles

W9INN Instructions for the MPD-5C-78 antenna.  80, 40, 20, 15, 10 meters at 78' length.
http://members.tcq.net/nzeronv/w9inn_mpd-5c-78_instructions.pdf
Using this as a BASELINE, you just need to remove 10 meters and re-size that top element.
The coils you can calculate with K7MEM calculator.


You may wish to contact Martin Meserve, K7MEM
He provides a number on Internet based Antenna Calculators for Shortened Dipoles.

The K7MEM antennas are a lumped-constant loaded dipole antenna that is intended to fit in available space,
rather than requiring a full 1/2 wavelength, at a specified frequency.

http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/shortant.html

BTW, Alpha-Delta HF wire antennas are similar to both approaches.
http://www.alphadeltacom.com/pg1.html

Alpha Delta's DX-CC (82 feet) and DX-EE (40 feet) models are the 2 most popular models for HF.
---
BTW, Jovan Peric, KB9K tried to restart the custom shortened loaded HF wire antenna building, similar to W9INN in 2008.  There was insufficient demand, and he sold his coil winding machinery earlier this year.

W9GB
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 05:16:56 PM by W9GB » Logged
W9GB
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Posts: 2626




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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2012, 09:00:13 PM »

You can contact these W9INN antenna owners (who wrote reviews).
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/322?page=2

AB7SL
There are 2 models that Bill sold.  A 78 foot and 87 foot long antenna with differing bandwidths.
My 78ft model gives great SWR on all bands including 80M where it has about a 120KHZ 2:1 bandwidth. It takes full legal power and has no traps (uses resonators)

Additional information, from W4YHD (2002)
At the time of order you specify the resonant frequency for each band at a specific antenna mounting height.
My antenna had resonances pretty close to the center frequencies chosen before adjustment. Bill uses nonresonant coils he terms "resonactors" to establish multiband capability using only two wire elements on each side of the feedpoint.
These coils are NOT resonant traps and therefore should be very rugged, efficient, and reliable. Be prepared to raise and lower the antenna quite a few times as you adjust the wire "stubs" for exact frequency resonance on each band as these individual band "stub" adjustments do affect the other bands.
VSWR bandwidths are adequate and somewhat wider than advertised.
Construction quality is excellent with a very nice insulated wire used. Black wire and dark grey coil forms are used to reduce antenna visibility. Bill provides very nice instructions with the antenna, thus it is easy to assemble and adjust.

KI0BW (2000)
All of Bill's antenna designs used only 2 dipoles/elements (fan dipole).
Bill's inline coils (Resonactors) are 2" OD forms (dark gray) and 2 1/2" long.  
One foot wooden dowels are used to separate the two dipoles.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 09:15:32 PM by W9GB » Logged
KF2YR
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Posts: 10




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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2012, 11:22:18 PM »

Thanks for the responses !  I have been "away" from the hobby for a few years and want to get back on HF, and this was a WONDERFUL antenna for my small lot size.  I remember speaking to Bill when I ordered my original antenna, and he explained that the wire "inside" the coils were full sized dipoles for the higher freq. band, and then the "Resonactor" loading coils tuned the putter section to resonance.
I was planning on using 1 1/2" PVC as a coil former (1.9" diameter) and using 14AWG enameled wire for the coils.  In order to keep the antenna as broadbanded as I can, I was planning on close wrapping the wire. My concern is that the coils will overheat or arc threw the enamel if I run my amp (AL80) as I used to do with Bill's antenna....  I seem to remember the original antenna had very close windings.... Will this cause problems Huh  I already purchased the enameled wire from "The Wireman" along with Budwig center and end insulators and I have a  500. Ft roll of 14AWG solid core insulated wire....I am just not experienced in winding coils.
I have the original paper work that came with the antenna,
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 11:30:43 PM by KF2YR » Logged
W9GB
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Posts: 2626




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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 07:09:12 AM »

Follow diagrams for Building the Resonators, per Bill's diagrams.

Homebrew Your Own Inductors
by Robert H. Johns, W3JIP,
QST, Aug 1997, p 35
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9708033.pdf

Quote
I have the original paper work that came with the antenna,
IF you could SCAN and post to MODS.DK or BAMA, then available to other W9INN owners.
Bill's documentation and materials were scrapped after his death.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:11:16 AM by W9GB » Logged
K9MHZ
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Posts: 425




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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 08:06:59 AM »

W9INN was great.  He was old school, a very pleasant, dignified gentleman.....couldn't help you enough.

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KF2YR
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Posts: 10




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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 11:54:56 AM »

I will scan the papers when I get a new scanner... 
As for the coils, Thank You for the link on Home Brewing Inductors...Very Informative!!!

I have a question, if someone with experience in RF Chokes cares to answer.... I know the length of the 20Meter dipole, and the 80 Meter length is set at 60 ft as per the original design. Using the coil design program from K7MEM's site...I get a choke of  45.195 uH (not to sure that I need to be THAT exact..).....
My Question is that if I setup the coils at the end of the 15M dipole (abt 11ft-1" each side) and the 40M dipole at an overall length of 48 Ft. ...then I get an inductor of 8.173 uH according to the program.....IS that enough of a choke to separate the 2 sections, or should I make the overall length shorter so the inductor is a bigger choke for the 15M section???
In otherwords...is that 8.173uH choke enough to make it work as 2 separate antennas???
THANKS for any help you can give......
Jim
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W9GB
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Posts: 2626




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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 02:40:37 PM »

Quote from: KF2YR
Thank You for the link on Home Brewing Inductors...Very Informative!!!
Robert Johns, W3JIP has a series of antenna articles in QST and ARRL Handbook from 1990s.

Quote from: KF2YR
My Question is that if I setup the coils at the end of the 15M dipole (abt 11ft-1" each side) and the 40M dipole at an overall length of 48 Ft. ...then I get an inductor of 8.173 uH according to the program.....IS that enough of a choke to separate the 2 sections, or should I make the overall length shorter so the inductor is a bigger choke for the 15M section???
Jim,

REMEMBER, that a 1/2-wavelength dipole for 40 meters --
that same antenna is a 3/2-wavelength antenna at 15 meters.

IF resonant at 7.10 MHz, it will also be at 21.30 MHz.
HOWEVER, while a 40 meter 1/2-wave dipole is a Figure-8 pattern;
at 15 meters the 3/2-wave antenna pattern is a 4-leaf clover.

IF you took that 40 meter 1/2-wave dipole and placed a "gimmick" capacitor at the 1/2-wave point for 15 meters (from center insulator), then the desired frequency for 15 meters moves down in frequency (for example: 21.30 MHz to ~ 21.10 MHz).
===

SO, the low value (8.173 uH) of that W9INN Resonactor (SH-1514) does not surprise me.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 02:57:24 PM by W9GB » Logged
KF2YR
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Posts: 10




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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 02:15:36 AM »

Again, Thank you for your input and help!  Although I am not sure what you mean by "gimmick capacitor" Huh
 I have read in the past that an antenna cut to 1/2 wavelength, will tune up and function on the 3rd. Multiple (Harmonic?) of the fundimental freq. but from speaking to Bill Fanckboner... and as evident by some of his other designs, I don't think that is what is happening here.
A very similar antenna is in Bill Orr's book on Amateur Antennas. The "W4JRW Loaded dipole for Multiband Operation" is basically the same as the top half of the MPD-5C MAX... W9INN's 78 ft antenna.( the bottom element of that is the same as my shortened SSD-4C version) .
As Bill F. W9INN explained it to me, the inner elements of the antenna (between the feed point and the coils) were just 1/2 wavelength dipoles. The coils acted to choke off the rest of the antenna at the higher freq.(in this case- 15M) & then acted as loading inductors for electrically shorting the lower freq.(40m on this antenna).  I hope that I am understanding this correctly! I guess the best way to find out will be to build it and get it in the air for testing!!!
73
Jim
 
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 10:28:44 AM »

I don't think there is anything magical about the design:  based on the notes so
far, the inner wire is a regular half wave dipole.  The loading coils are designed to
be self-resonant at the higher frequency, so they are essentially traps, but using
distributed capacitance rather than discrete units.  The losses will be at least
as high, so there isn't a lot of advantage in that regard, but the higher inductance
allows for more shortening of the antenna on the lower frequency.

I've used a similar approach to work 40m and 160m on a single wire.  I chose the
inductance so that the overall length was about the same as an 80m dipole, but
that was just a matter of convenience in the end application.  If the coil is not
self-resonant on the higher frequency, you might need to adjust the length of
the inner dipole slightly.  EZNEC suggested that I needed to add 1 foot to my
40m wire lengths with the particular inductor I choose, but in practice I didn't.

You can use the Hamwaves inductance calculator that will give you both the
effective inductance and the self-resonant frequency of the coil:  you can adjust
the coil make it self-resonant on the higher frequency then adjust the total wire
length as needed to resonate on the lower one, or just put it up and experiment.
It might take a bit of experimenting, but it shouldn't be difficult to find a combination
that works.

Hamwaves coil calculator:  http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html
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K0OD
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 12:03:32 PM »

Quote
not sure what you mean by "gimmick capacitor"

A gimmick capacitor is simply a wire wrapped around another (or near another) to function as a cheapie low value capacitor. I just restored a 1937 Zenith AM/SW radio that had two wires twisted together about two turns. I assumed it was an old shoddy repair job until I noticed they were shown as a capacitor on the schematic. Used for LO injection in that case. 
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K0OD
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 01:13:53 PM »

Quote
A gimmick capacitor is simply a wire wrapped around another

I should have said an INSULATED wire wrapped around another.
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KF2YR
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 06:37:53 AM »

Thanks...I have seen this on some old receivers myself (twisted wires to form a cap.)....
I just had not heard that called a gimmick capacitor before.
THANKS for the education...I LOVE this site...always learning something new!!!
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W9GB
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Posts: 2626




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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 08:15:14 AM »

To build a GIMMICK Capacitor for a 40/15-meter dipole,
This is described in recent ARRL Handbooks.

Identify the 1/2-wave point (for 15 meters) on the 40-meter half-wavelength dipole.
At this location, place the Gimmick capacitor.

The Gimmick capacitor is a 24" (2 feet) piece of antenna wire.
This wire is soldered into a Loop.  The Loop is then twisted to form a Figure-8.

The cross point of the Figure-8 is attached to 15-meter 1/2-wave point
previously identified on the 40-meter dipole.

==
William J. Lattin, W4JRW
Multiband antenna - December 1960 and April 1961 QST magazine
http://www.hamuniverse.com/lattin5band.html
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:32:08 AM by W9GB » Logged
KB6HRT
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Posts: 113




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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »

Was a customer of Bill's have a MED-842m custom antenna for a special appellation ( shorter) still in use today, but have had
to install different coils on the 75m portion because I popped one running power on 75m after it had rained, my though is the wire he used was different than the wire I used, Bill told me he used wire that he had made up for his antennas, and it played a part in the performance of the antennas, after my first antenna a MPD-5c, when ordering antennas would ask
Bill for additional wire for maintenance, wish I still had some today it said w9inn stamped on it. Am using two coils from an AD 10-80m dipole on the antenna today, got them to work OK, but believe if I had some of the wire Bill used for his coils it would work some better on 75m, because it still works great on 20m an 40m an all right on 75m. Think it was so great that Bill was able to work up to the last week of his life, I know so so much more about antennas now than when passed, but still am a baby in this field. Most of the time for me it building, tuning and testing the antenna is where I gain the knowledge, hope I live a long life, have a very long long way to go.this is a great post because it unlocks some of the secrets of the W9INN antennas
that have served us so well over the years.The wire appeared to be nr 14awg hard drawn that was insulated the coils wire was smaller wire that was dipped or sprayed for high insulating value, the tape used was probley Scotch 88 electrical tape...........kb6hrt
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