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Author Topic: Question on Procedure Signals  (Read 2825 times)
KK4CPH
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Posts: 154




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« on: September 10, 2012, 08:18:04 AM »

I'm reading "Your Novice Accent"   ( http://users.ohiohills.com/gordon/novacnt.html )
It says when ending a QSO to use <VA> when you've made your last transmission.
The example they give is "... 74 ES CUL GN <VA> WN4YY DE KN6ZZZ K"
Wouldn't you just use SK or CL after your call sign?  It also says to use a 3x3 call and answer when establishing a contact, but I've read different practices people use.  I know this article is over 50 years old and just wondering if things have changed?

Eric
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K8AXW
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Posts: 3773




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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 09:14:17 AM »

Eric:

SK - VA..... the same.... last transmission.  CL + Closing Station.  In other words, you're shutting down and won't be answering any calls or won't be listening on this or any other frequency.

Procedures, like our English language has morphed down through the years.  I think you'll find the 3X3 procedure is pretty well gone.  Now you'll find it's more like 1X2 or 2X2.  Another thing to remember is, during the past 50 years operating practices due to band changes have changed considerably. 

For example, when I was in Germany a little over 50 years ago it was common practice to call CQ in the European phone band indicating I was looking for a stateside contact,  then tune the American phone band for an answer.  This required the answering station to send maybe a 3X3, perhaps several times.  Remember, this was the day of separate transmitters and receivers.

While it's good to study and learn as much as you can including procedures, the best source of information is the ham bands.  Listen to what is going on and for the most part, emulate what you hear.
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KK4CPH
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Posts: 154




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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 09:59:45 AM »

K8AXW, Thank You.  It was a bit confusing because <VA> was before the call signs.  I have been trying to listen as much as possible but I'm at level 22 so I still have to learn the other half.  I have heard <BT> used quite a bit.  I was listening in on a QSO and heard an op send <BT> 3 times after each sentence.  I thought that was a lot but maybe he was searching for a thought. (?)
You're right about listening.  A lot of abbreviations are used.  I heard "FB" and thought I got it wrong until I looked it up and found out it means "fine business."   Grin

Eric
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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20574




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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 10:17:20 AM »

Since the prosigns have no spaces between the "letters" which are used to symbolize them, VA and SK are the same.

Convention is:

...end of conversation...73 SK KK4CPH de WB2WIK

often followed by "two dits" (dit dit) with a space between them, as shorthand for the old "shave and a haircut two bits" (dit   dididit  dit   dit  dit) that old timers have sent for several decades as the "last and final" part of a sign-off transmission.  The two dits aren't necessary, of course, it's just old habit and you'll hear it a lot after casual QSOs.  Not during contests.

At the end of a contest contact is usually dah dididah (TU), which stands for Thank You and indicates that contact is finished and you're ready for another one.







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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 10:50:28 AM »

Since the prosigns have no spaces between the "letters" which are used to symbolize them, VA and SK are the same.
Not quite. A number>0 of guys presenting themself at this forum hope me to be SK soon, but they didn't think about me being VA.
Quote
Convention is:

...end of conversation...73 SK KK4CPH de WB2WIK

often followed by "two dits" (dit dit) with a space between them

Right, and when someone is using a keyboard he sends ditdahditdahditdah   ditdahditdahditdah.

Quote
Not during contests.

Oeeeh nooe then he sends TU to thank for the 599, as the chirpy 446 station. Otherwise he is a LID.

Bob
PAoBLAH

What a hobby, at present I am ashamed to admit I am a ham since 65 years, when someone asks abt my hobby.
At present I usually answer  "uphill skiing"

73 Bob

« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 10:54:57 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
N6GND
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Posts: 354




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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 12:43:01 PM »

Bob: "Not quite. A number>0 of guys presenting themself at this forum hope me to be SK soon, but they didn't think about me being VA."

I don't think anyone is hoping for you to be a Silent Key, but some probably do think about your taking a "VA" (Voluntary leave-of-Absence) at times.  Grin

Bob: "What a hobby, at present I am ashamed to admit I am a ham since 65 years, when someone asks abt my hobby. At present I usually answer  "uphill skiing."

The hobby has changed. I was a ham 55 years ago as a lad of 12 and left the hobby for half-a-century until returning just two years ago to find it more interesting than ever. For one thing, the technology is far more highly-evolved. The ordinary level of discourse about antenna design, which I find particularly fascinating, is enormously advanced. I enjoy building antennas more than almost any other facet of the hobby. I like laying out the wire and figuring out how to put as much wire up on my small property as I can get away with. I like sending rf noise up my antenna and then turning the knobs of my antenna tuner seeking the null of resonance on an S meter. I like using radios that are set up not to be like appliances, but more like lab instruments with discoveries to be made every day. To be entered into my notebooks and later thought about and wondered over as I consider yet another minor modification to the wires I've strung up.

It also seems to me that there are more CW ops than ever, sending better, more high quality code than half-a-century ago. I recall getting compliments on my sending way back when. I don't think my sending is any worse today than it used to be, but I don't get compliments these days because, I figure, the standard for sending is, generally, significantly higher than it used to be.

You've chosen to see your skiing adventure as an uphill struggle. It isn't necessarily so. I have no doubt that in reality you are gliding along a very smooth level slope enjoying many views of forests and hills. The observations you note on these forums are usually quite insightful and informative. Those hills and trees are not, in fact, trying to attack you. You just need to observe them and select your route around them. The problem seems to be that you choose to see, as the saying goes, a glass that is half empty, when in fact it is a big glass and it is still half full.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 12:47:35 PM by N6GND » Logged
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 02:17:53 PM »

Bob: "Not quite. A number>0 of guys presenting themself at this forum hope me to be SK soon, but they didn't think about me being VA."


Bob: "What a hobby, at present I am ashamed to admit I am a ham since 65 years, when someone asks abt my hobby. At present I usually answer  "uphill skiing."



The hobby has changed

Exactly. I swallowed some chemicals for house cleaning because they were stored in an empty  bottle which advertised "Kilbeggan Irish Whisky" So instead of having my high of the day I was a victim of the physician, who orderend vomitting chemicals. But I was still alive enough to ask him to repeatedly say ICOM, Yaesu and  Kenwood. and the result was the wrong stomach containment were vomitted at once after hearing those words.

The MD was astonished, so not I.



« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:28:02 PM by PA0BLAH » Logged
N6GND
Member

Posts: 354




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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 05:27:36 PM »

"Exactly. I swallowed some chemicals for house cleaning because they were stored in an empty  bottle which advertised "Kilbeggan Irish Whisky" So instead of having my high of the day I was a victim of the physician, who orderend vomitting chemicals. But I was still alive enough to ask him to repeatedly say ICOM, Yaesu and  Kenwood. and the result was the wrong stomach containment were vomitted at once after hearing those words."

 Wink

Quel che s'impara volentieri, s'impara facilmente.

The things a man loves go down easily.

Those of us on this side of the lake who love real, authentic whiskey find that the fresh, homemade-style stuff (frequently referred to as "moonshine") which is crystal clear, and still tastes of the grain from which it came, is always most satisfactory. Never to be mistaken for furniture or floor polish.

Similarly, the productions of smaller, more neighborly moonshiners like Elecraft, TenTec and R.L. Drake, with their thoughtful, and straightforward approaches, keep a brasspounder in a highly elevated mood.
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ZL1BBW
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Posts: 371




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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 06:16:34 PM »

I always used VA, as a rather derogatory term, more of a go away signal.  Normally end a QSO tks cu . ...  reply  ..

But that is probably all wrong.
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ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.
K8AXW
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Posts: 3773




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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 08:46:44 PM »

CPH: 
Quote
I thought that was a lot but maybe he was searching for a thought. (?)

Yes, he was searching for a thought.  This happens sometimes when working someone who isn't much of a conversationalist.  This is why it's good to ask questions.  It gives fodder for him to respond to. 

Some newbies even keep "cheat sheets" to get them through these moments when the brain just locks up.   Cheesy

The more you listen, the more you learn OM.  Keep working at it.  You'll get there and find it worth it all.

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N4OI
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Posts: 203




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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 06:35:37 AM »

... Procedures, like our English language has morphed down through the years. ... Another thing to remember is, during the past 50 years operating practices due to band changes have changed considerably. 
...

I suspect some operating procedures have also changed because radios have moved to digital PLL VFOs.  Although I have only been a ham for 10 years now, I picked up and rebuilt an old TenTec Century 21 that quickly became my "daily driver."  It is great fun but I found that with the direct conversion analog receiver, sometimes I have to look around a bit to find someone who is returning my CQ.  It is a lot easier if my call sign is repeated a few times so I can locate him!

73 ES GOD BLESS U ES URS DE KEN N4OI  Grin
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STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 859




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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 01:18:22 PM »

I always used VA, as a rather derogatory term, more of a go away signal.  Normally end a QSO tks cu . ...  reply  ..

But that is probably all wrong.

So that's why people keep putting VA at the beginning of their call to me!

But seriously Eric, kudos to you for reading and trying to get some basic operating procedures understood.
Book learning is very useful, and is always the first step to avoid re-inventing the wheel, and greases the gears.

But certainly you will find that on-air procedures vary greatly from the book version.
It is like people who learn foreign languages from books.
They learn idealized rote phrases which do work, but sound stiff and unnatural in conversational use.

People are notoriously lazy by nature, and will shorten words and sentences as far as possible without obscuring the meaning.
This applies to all languages, not just in Morse, so on-air monitoring will soon show you the current fashions in operating procedures.

Good reading and listening,

73 - Rob
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