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Author Topic: CW operating with code groups; oldtimer help wanted!  (Read 5125 times)
WB4WZR
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Posts: 17




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« on: September 22, 2012, 12:12:34 PM »

I practice CW by sending random code groups (into dummy load, ultra QRP).  When mistakes occur, I could just send eee.., correct the letter, and continue as in usual text, however, it seems more useful to repeat the entire group.

Do any former military CW operators remember what the procedure was for correcting errors in code groups?  I haven't a clue, but would like to do it a "realistic" manner.

Chris Kimball
(NQ8Z, formerly  WB4WZR)
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K8AXW
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Posts: 3961




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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 05:54:10 PM »

If you make a mistake in a 5 letter code group, you repeat the whole group.

Depending on the nationality, the error indicator is anything from eeeeee.... to didit-didit. 

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PA0BLAH
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Posts: 0




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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 03:39:57 AM »

If you make a mistake in a 5 letter code group, you repeat the whole group.

Depending on the nationality, the error indicator is anything from eeeeee.... to didit-didit. 

OK, suppose it is didit didit, what then when you have two codegroups, the first one ending on a character i and the second starting with the character i.
You sent it flawless, but the quy at the other side thinks you gave an error sign, and he got screwed up.

Bob
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STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 06:04:24 PM »

When at sea we were taught to send six dits, then send ? (question mark or repeat indicator), then send AA (all after), then resend the previous group followed by the correct group.
Needless to say we did not always do that, but that was the recommended method.
It was usually shortened in any number of ways which was understood by ship and coast stations of the time.

The same syntax was used by coast stations when requesting repeats.
Because maritime stations used full QSK the coast station usually put out a few dits to get your attention.

73 - Rob
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 06:17:17 PM by STAYVERTICAL » Logged
K8AXW
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Posts: 3961




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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 09:43:39 PM »

Hi Rob,

That's why I mentioned "depending on the nation."  When it comes to the military, especially American, there's a tendency to deviate from what "where supposed to do."   Wink

Our OPs got to using bugs instead of the J-38 and before long they were operating at speeds the monitoring stations couldn't copy.  Then the bugs were removed. 
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STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 10:34:00 PM »

Hi Rob,

That's why I mentioned "depending on the nation."  When it comes to the military, especially American, there's a tendency to deviate from what "where supposed to do."   Wink

Our OPs got to using bugs instead of the J-38 and before long they were operating at speeds the monitoring stations couldn't copy.  Then the bugs were removed. 

Hi Allen,

LOL - A good example of steganography " hiding in plain sight ".

73 - Rob
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W7ASA
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Posts: 267




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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 10:56:20 PM »

With us in our little organization, an error would be indicated by sending the 8 dit error indicator then BT and then continue from THE error group. We did not retransmit the previous group for cipher text. Basically, we used the " BT " to alert the ops on the other end: 'OK - I am back to the message traffic.' , so he didn't have to guess - he was probably hung-over anyway...    Shocked

QTC 01 GR 07
BT

THISI ISASE CRETM ESSAG EFOL  ........  BT EFORO NLYYO UGUYS

BT
QSL 01 IMI K


Other units and other times may have been different.


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._
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PA0BLAH
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Posts: 0




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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 05:52:24 AM »

Nobody answers my challenging question about the didit  didit error indicator, yes it requires thinking, and a forum is a license to stop thinking because you just ask.  Especially the (ex) military are trained to listen and not to think.

Americans are not willingfull to adept international rules is stated here, literally K8AXW wrote
Quote
When it comes to the military, especially American, there's a tendency to deviate from what "where supposed to do."    Wink
 complete with the ape language of one out of 16 Halloween cheeses in order to express his emotional feelings. 16 are offered so 16 emotions are permitted or can be expressed, because words are not available when your vocabulary stops at 500, the vocabulary of "News in special English" as used in the past to brainwash the rest of the world. Brainwash? Yes such like mass destruction weapons available at countries worthwile to attack under international consent.

Yes not willingfull to adept international rules, that is known behavior, sea mile land mile yard acre foot inch mils pint quarter cup spoon US-gallon Imperial gallon, fluid ounce solid ounce grain pound inch foot mho, and the pages and pages of conversion tables. Amazing the volt ohm and ampere are adapted.

However, what happens when you make an error sent      [hh] ? = AA xxxxx and you make an error again in xxxxx ?

Will become a mess.Traffic rule is here: You have to keep distance to the car in front of you that is sufficient to stop your car. Furthermore: the distance must be sufficient in order that an overtaking car can insert. The second requirement is less then the first, but when an overtaking car inserts, you have to slow down in order to meet the first requirement. Because you slow down other cars behind you are going to overtake, and in the limit you have to back up in order to meet the requirements of the law.  So it is better to drive at the wrong road side and reach your destination in the reverse.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 06:06:21 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
KE6EE
Member

Posts: 447




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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 09:10:43 AM »

Will become a mess.Traffic rule is here: You have to keep distance to the car in front of you that is sufficient to stop your car. Furthermore: the distance must be sufficient in order that an overtaking car can insert. The second requirement is less then the first, but when an overtaking car inserts, you have to slow down in order to meet the first requirement. Because you slow down other cars behind you are going to overtake, and in the limit you have to back up in order to meet the requirements of the law.  So it is better to drive at the wrong road side and reach your destination in the reverse.

Halloweenkaas!  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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K8AXW
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Posts: 3961




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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 11:03:00 AM »

Ray:  We were a small unit as well..... and the traffic procedure got clear out of hand at one point.  Along with the bugs went other procedures as well and the traffic used to flow at a rapid pace. 

When I finally hit the fan and the bugs were removed and procedures were reinstated, the flow dropped considerably.  But the monitor stations were once again happy! 
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PA0BLAH
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Posts: 0




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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 11:21:57 AM »


Halloweenkaas!  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Plan your next vacation to Amsterdam, it is a touristical hotspot because cannabis (which you obtain when you want to buy coffee) , prostitution and gambling are not only legal, but mandatory.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:28:43 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
KE6EE
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Posts: 447




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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 01:08:09 PM »


Plan your next vacation to Amsterdam, it is a touristical hotspot because cannabis (which you obtain when you want to buy coffee) , prostitution and gambling are not only legal, but mandatory.

I quite like Amsterdam. I was there for a "Car-Free Cities" conference in about 1990. There were mayors and transportation planners (which I was) there from 40 cities from London to Athens. I was the only American at the conference. I consider Amsterdam to be very civilized. I'm not interested in pot or hookers, but one can dine well there.

Here in Oakland we also have city-mandated cannabis. Prostitution is a major industry. Oakland is the home of Oaksterdam University where you can take advanced classes in the production and distribution of cannabis. I find Oakland far less amusing than Amsterdam but that may be because I prefer a Dutch sense of humor.
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 04:10:18 PM »



I quite like Amsterdam.
PM sent 73
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N5XM
Member

Posts: 242




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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 08:42:57 PM »

Americans have little grasp of the cultural differences between countries.  If something is declared illegal here, it is also thought to be immoral.  There are people in other places that don't see things the same way that we see things.  Are they wrong by definition because they don't see legality and morality the same way we do?  Nope...

A fine tip of the hat to you fine CW gentlemen who have practiced this art for their country.  You guys know the protocols, and I don't have a leg to stand on re this type of discussion.  My niche is conversational CW, and I love to copy it in my head, the words, not individual characters.  It's all CW as far as I'm concerned!
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K7KBN
Member

Posts: 2825




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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 05:09:30 PM »

In the US Navy, in the '60s, if we made a mistake in a group (either a 5-letter group or an actual word), we sent eight dits and resumed sending with the last group that we knew we'd sent correctly.

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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
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