Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: FCC Petition to Void antenna restrictions has 4150 signature with 3 days left  (Read 51677 times)
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »

there is nothing wrong with trying to get antenna restrictions removed from HOA conditions - those who do not support the cause, can beat it.

What about the millions of people (who are not hams) who bought houses in HOA neighborhoods because they didn't want towers and antennas in their neighborhood? You think it's right to petition the government to nullify a private contractual agreement that you voluntarily agreed to just so you can pursue a hobby?

The best solution is to do what I did: move.
Logged
WB2WIK
Member

Posts: 20611




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 02:11:32 PM »



What about the millions of people (who are not hams) who bought houses in HOA neighborhoods because they didn't want towers and antennas in their neighborhood?

Can you name five?  I can't even name one.

I know a lot of people who bought CC&R properties in HOAs, and none of them are hams.  I've carefully asked every one of them what their thought process was and what protections they were looking for and nobody ever mentioned anything about antennas, or really anything else like that.

Every single one had a near identical answer:

"We didn't have much choice, every place has this."

"I'm happy they cut the grass, so that's one less job I have to do."

"We liked the house, did not like the restrictions, don't like paying HOA fees, but at least we got a house we like."

I suspect if you ask 1,000 people living in such communities you'll still get answers very similar to this.  Almost nobody buys them for protection against antenna towers, or against anything else people might wish to do.
Logged
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 03:23:32 PM »

I suspect if you ask 1,000 people living in such communities you'll still get answers very similar to this.  Almost nobody buys them for protection against antenna towers, or against anything else people might wish to do.

Maybe not, but put up a tower in an area (even one without restrictions) and see how quickly the neighbors organize opposition to it. I've heard of this happening many times from friends who went through the process of getting permits, etc., to put up a tower only to find the neighbors complaining to the zoning board, the city, and whoever else would listen, and even canvassing the neighborhood with a petition against the tower. The hams ultimately won, but not before alienating their neighbors.

I agree that CC&Rs suck, but they are voluntary, and there are plenty of places to choose from that don't have them, so asking the government to fight a battle you should never have picked in the first place is disingenuous.
Logged
WB2WIK
Member

Posts: 20611




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 08:53:54 AM »


Maybe not, but put up a tower in an area (even one without restrictions) and see how quickly the neighbors organize opposition to it. I've heard of this happening many times from friends who went through the process of getting permits, etc., to put up a tower only to find the neighbors complaining to the zoning board, the city, and whoever else would listen, and even canvassing the neighborhood with a petition against the tower. The hams ultimately won, but not before alienating their neighbors.



I've heard such stories my whole life but never encountered such a response, myself.  I've owned 15 homes that we've lived in, starting at age 22 in New Jersey, and moving a lot of times; I've installed a tower (or towers) at all of them, with highly visible antennas.

I've never had a neighbor complain about the antennas or towers.  I used to get "TVI" complaints back in the old days (60s-70s-a bit into the 80s) but once virtually everyone came to use cable or satellite for TV reception, those all stopped and I've never had such a complaint in at least 25 years.

But those were "interference" complaints, not antenna complaints.  Once I resolved the interference (usually by installing filters on TV sets, improving neighbors' antenna systems and transmission lines, and other stuff I did with their agreement), there were no more complaints.

Maybe I've been lucky fifteen times. Wink
Logged
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 11:07:08 AM »

Maybe I've been lucky fifteen times. Wink

You've either have been lucky or have chosen your neighborhoods well.

One college friend of mine bought a house in an area without CC&Rs and applied for a building permit from the city to put up a 55' crank-up tower. The permit was granted and he put the tower up. Neighbor opposition started almost immediately with the neighbors going door-to-door drumming up support for a campaign to get the city to revoke the permit and make my friend take the tower down. There was a special meeting of the zoning board that got quite nasty with lots of shouting and posturing by the neighbors.

The zoning board ultimately sided with my friend, but it left such a bad taste in his mouth that he moved out of the area about a year later.
Logged
WB2WIK
Member

Posts: 20611




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2012, 07:14:49 PM »

Quote
You've either have been lucky or have chosen your neighborhoods well.

One college friend of mine bought a house in an area without CC&Rs and applied for a building permit from the city to put up a 55' crank-up tower. The permit was granted and he put the tower up. Neighbor opposition started almost immediately with the neighbors going door-to-door drumming up support for a campaign to get the city to revoke the permit and make my friend take the tower down. There was a special meeting of the zoning board that got quite nasty with lots of shouting and posturing by the neighbors.

The zoning board ultimately sided with my friend, but it left such a bad taste in his mouth that he moved out of the area about a year later.

I think "choosing well" helps a lot.  I have a realtor's license  (although never really worked in this field...I just thought it would be handy to know the rules and it was only a 14-day night course at CSUN) and understand R/E laws pretty well, I think.

NEVER trust what any agent says, as even licensed brokers know very little about R/E laws.  Getting a license is about as easy as getting a ham license -- it's nothing.

As an example, I remember "graduating" that course in 2001 with what was proclaimed to be "the highest score anyone ever had."  Holy cow, I was half asleep for it.  On a 100-point scale, I was the only one they ever tested who scored 100.  Trust me, I was really half asleep.

Do your research, it pays off.
Logged
AB4D
Member

Posts: 298


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 05:02:42 PM »

It seems to me AC7DX is some kind of Jack-Ass - there is nothing wrong with trying to get antenna restrictions removed from HOA conditions - those who do not support the cause, can beat it. David K1WJ Cool

IMO, there is a lot wrong with someone trying to override a contractual agreement that includes covenants.  Everyone who purchased property in a development with an HOA, agreed to accept those conditions when they purchased the property.  Your post shows little respect for others. 

When people move into a development with an HOA, they agree to abide by the rules, and that goes for everyone.  If you are a ham, and move into a house with an HOA, you are expected to abide by the rules as well.  You can't hide behind PRB-1 or the guise that you are a amateur radio operator.  The FCC has already stated that PRB-1 does not extend to private contracts.

Just as much as you want to put up that new fancy antenna. I am sure plenty of your neighbors feel just as strongly about not having to look at it, or experience the possible RFI that can occur.  People that move into developments with HOAs have certain expectations and rights, that are clearly defined in the HOA documents about what people can do and not do, who are you to trample all over their rights?  You sound pretty selfish.

For those who try to make the argument, "well I became a ham after I moved here" so I shouldn't have to abide by the rules.   I am glad to hear that you joined our ranks.  However, that point is just as silly as you next door neighbor saying, "well my daughter has decided to take up horse back riding", and now she wants to keep a horse in her 5000 square foot back yard?  Both are considered a nuisance by most people.

If you want the freedom to build a station that includes outside antennas, the solution is simple.  Do what I and many others have done, move where there is no HOA.  I guarantee, you'll be much happier.  Just ask yourself, how important is Ham Radio to you?

73
Logged
K7TBY
Member

Posts: 10




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 11:02:18 AM »

IMO, there is a lot wrong with someone trying to override a contractual agreement that includes covenants.  Everyone who purchased property in a development with an HOA, agreed to accept those conditions when they purchased the property.  Your post shows little respect for others. 

When people move into a development with an HOA, they agree to abide by the rules, and that goes for everyone.  If you are a ham, and move into a house with an HOA, you are expected to abide by the rules as well.  You can't hide behind PRB-1 or the guise that you are a amateur radio operator.  The FCC has already stated that PRB-1 does not extend to private contracts.

Just as much as you want to put up that new fancy antenna. I am sure plenty of your neighbors feel just as strongly about not having to look at it, or experience the possible RFI that can occur.  People that move into developments with HOAs have certain expectations and rights, that are clearly defined in the HOA documents about what people can do and not do, who are you to trample all over their rights?  You sound pretty selfish.

For those who try to make the argument, "well I became a ham after I moved here" so I shouldn't have to abide by the rules.   I am glad to hear that you joined our ranks.  However, that point is just as silly as you next door neighbor saying, "well my daughter has decided to take up horse back riding", and now she wants to keep a horse in her 5000 square foot back yard?  Both are considered a nuisance by most people.

If you want the freedom to build a station that includes outside antennas, the solution is simple.  Do what I and many others have done, move where there is no HOA.  I guarantee, you'll be much happier.  Just ask yourself, how important is Ham Radio to you?

73

Where is the "Like" button? Great response.
Logged
N7BMW
Member

Posts: 120




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 12:36:28 PM »

I live in an HOA restricted home.  Just bought 1-1/2 years ago.  I did read and understood the CC & Rs.  I love the home and am very happy here. 

Some of the rules make a lot of sense.  A block away, in a much older neighborhood there is a home with five cars and trailers parked in the front yard that have not moved for years - a veritable junkyard.  There is a house with a partially collapsed barn behind it - the city does nothing to get this eyesore torn down even though it is a safety hazard for kids in the neighborhood.  I am glad that if push came to shove, my neighborhood has a tool to prevent these things form happening. 

The home owners association here is dead - has been for years.  So there is no enforcement at present.  Our CC & Rs are not as restrictive as others.  We cannot have an antenna more than 10 feet above our roof line.   Many of the CC & Rs are boilerplate.  Go to a lawyer to develop some land for homes and they pull out some verbage that they picked up from who knows where and it becomes the CC & Rs without further thought.  The people that did the development are long gone.  The rules are still there. 

I am in violation of the CC & Rs.  I have a dipole up about 60 ft strung between two trees.  It is hardly visible.  The ladder line is the visible part. My next door neighbor grew up next to a ham and they were good friends - he does not mind the antenna.  Another neighbor was visiting and asked what that thing was.  I told her it was a short wave antenna.  She asked if I talked too.  I said yes and she started talking about her dad, his CB and how much fun he had doing it.  She does not mind.  Will I put up a tower? Probably not.  I may put up a vertical in the back yard where few people will see it. 

I am rambling on.

My point is that I feel for those people who live with CC & Rs that prohibit all antennas.  The rules were put into place by some lawyer just because of some verbage that has been replicated blindly for years.  The uninformed just keep enforcing the rules blindly.  Getting the rules changed is nearly impossible.  Those hams need some relief.  Some reasonable restrictions on CC & Rs are needed.  Want to buy a home built in the last 25 years?  You will be stuck with CC & Rs.  We need something to prevent this situation. 

Yes, it is a contractual agreement but it is one drawn up by people that are long gone from the scene.  There has to be some accommodation.
Logged
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 01:46:38 PM »

The home owners association here is dead - has been for years.  So there is no enforcement at present. 
All it takes is one homeowner who doesn't like whatever you've done in violation of the CC&Rs to take you to court.. The fact that the HOA is gone doesn't mean you can get away with violating the restrictions at will.

Quote
My point is that I feel for those people who live with CC & Rs that prohibit all antennas.  The rules were put into place by some lawyer just because of some verbage that has been replicated blindly for years.
Yes, but you signed a contract with the conditions attached. It doesn't matter how they came about or why -- you signed them and now you have to live with them. If you have a problem with this, you shouldn't have signed.

Quote
Some reasonable restrictions on CC & Rs are needed.  Want to buy a home built in the last 25 years?  You will be stuck with CC & Rs. 
My house was built much less than 25 years ago and I don't have CC&Rs, so your blanket statement is not always true. It was up to you to research properties before buying--you would have found plenty not encumbered with CC&Rs. I did, and I live in an area where CC&Rs are probably more common than in many places.

Quote
We need something to prevent this situation.
Simple: don't sign a contract with CC&Rs attached.

Quote
Yes, it is a contractual agreement but it is one drawn up by people that are long gone from the scene.  There has to be some accommodation.
True, but you signed... The accommodation is not to sign if you can't live with the terms.

This all boils down to the fact that you signed a consensual agreement to be bound to the terms of the CC&Rs. Why should the government get involved in a private contract dispute, especially one involving a hobby? Sure, the FCC preempted CC&R provisions that prevented homeowners from putting up satellite dishes a few years ago, but I would have argued against that as well -- why should they get involved in private matters over an entertainment medium?
Logged
N7BMW
Member

Posts: 120




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 09:11:49 PM »

Wow W6UV this seems this is quite a hot button for you.

As has been posted in discussions here before, the government has stepped into private contracts for other reasons such as discrimination.   If you signed into a CC&R that banned Blacks, Jews or Muslims would you make the same argument?

Banning hams from a community could be called discrimination.  Banning all transmitters could be called just plain stupid.  I would like to see what happened if an HOA tried to stop garage door openers and cellphones.

Maybe another homeowner in the community could sue me, maybe not.  Contracts are between two entities, one non existent and one being me.  I did not enter into a contract with an individual homeowner. 

It is great that your home is not under any CC&Rs.  Congratulations.  Is your home in a city?  Is it in a development?  What about all the people who have limited choices?  You have what you want so damn the rest?



Logged
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 10:37:03 PM »

Wow W6UV this seems this is quite a hot button for you.
Not so much a hot button as common sense. I myself was in this situation for many years and made do with antennas that fit within the bounds of the CC&Rs that I willingly signed, along with the 119 other homeowners in the area. Sure, these rules prevented me from putting up a tower, but they also prevented my neighbor from restoring a muscle car up on concrete blocks on his front lawn. This is the key point here: most people, who are not hams incidentally, actually like many of the provisions of CC&Rs because they prevent the neighborhood from looking like a dump. Are many CC&R provisions silly? Sure they are, and it's up to the residents to get together and change them as they see fit. This can be done as has been done frequently in CC&R-bound areas where I've lived. Try to get your HOA or fellow residents to delete the anti-antenna provisions in the CC&Rs--they might just go along with you--and if they don't, then that should tell you something..

I eventually got out of this situation by moving to a house that was not bound by CC&Rs.

Quote
As has been posted in discussions here before, the government has stepped into private contracts for other reasons such as discrimination.   If you signed into a CC&R that banned Blacks, Jews or Muslims would you make the same argument?
Interesting point. Most would agree with you (including me), but not all, because some still value the concept of freedom of association and the right to choose who you live in proximity to. Some of this still occurs, in fact. There are many retirement communities that practice age discrimination--is that acceptable?

Many fail to understand that the constitution and bill of rights limit the powers of government and not private entities or contracts. Sure, we're guaranteed freedom of speech by the 1st amendment,  but that doesn't give me the right to demand that the New York Times publish anything I want on their front page.

Quote
Banning hams from a community could be called discrimination.  Banning all transmitters could be called just plain stupid.  I would like to see what happened if an HOA tried to stop garage door openers and cellphones.
Ham radio is a hobby. Hams are not a racial, ethnic, or religious group. This is a specious argument.

Quote
It is great that your home is not under any CC&Rs.  Congratulations.  Is your home in a city?  Is it in a development?  What about all the people who have limited choices?
Everyone has a choice, and those choices are not as limited as you may think. When I went looking for a new house two years ago, I found plenty of choices that did not have CC&Rs, inside the city and out, in a development and custom, etc. It takes some looking and research but these places exist almost everywhere.

Quote
You have what you want so damn the rest?
Yes, what about the rest? The "rest" in this case being the 99.8% of the population who are not hams and don't want towers and other things they consider eyesores (and worse) in their neighborhood? Again, ham radio is a hobby, and like many other hobbies, one cannot always accommodate such activities everywhere. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, what if someone wanted to keep a horse on a small city lot? Should they be permitted to do so? How about flying 1/4 scale model airplanes in the neighborhood using the street as a runway? Should that hobby use be allowed?
Logged
WB6DGN
Member

Posts: 619




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2012, 05:22:20 PM »

First, let me say that I am not affected by this issue.  There are no CC&Rs in my neighborhood and there are several hams with antennas higher than I would want or need so this is a non-issue for me.  Further, I would qualify under the provisions of PRB-1, not CC&Rs.  I read this thread more out of curiosity than anything else.  I wish I hadn't!  The name calling and personal attacks nauseate me.  As with most arguments, there are valid points and opinions on both sides but rarely do the participants turn so downright vicious as this group has.  It is no wonder that I have taken to referring to myself as "AN "ELECTRONICS EXPERIMENTER WHO, IN ORDER TO PURSUE MY INTERESTS, IS REQUIRED TO POSSES AN AMATEUR RADIO LICENSE" rather than "AN AMATEUR RADIO OPERATOR".  As long as "amateur radio operators" continue to conduct themselves as demonstrated on this post, I have no desire to be affiliated with the group.
Tom
Logged
W7KKK
Member

Posts: 374




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2012, 11:58:32 AM »

I dealt with a couple of congressmen in my time, it was part of my job.
They told me that petitions mean absolutely nothing to them so why should it to the FCC.
They said hand written letters were much more effective as in their opinion that meant someone took the time to write to them.
That being said, I doubt the FCC will ever have the authority without a big challenge to state that just because we are licensed that states, counties and cities and the like have to give up their rights.
Logged
W6UV
Member

Posts: 538




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2012, 12:36:11 PM »

That being said, I doubt the FCC will ever have the authority without a big challenge to state that just because we are licensed that states, counties and cities and the like have to give up their rights.

The FCC has already stated that they will not act on such a request without direct authority from Congress. This is what it took for the FCC to adopt the OTARD rule back in the mid-90s.
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!