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Author Topic: Vertical on a hill 200ft away  (Read 2622 times)
KU6Z
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Posts: 7




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« on: October 22, 2012, 03:02:15 PM »

So I'm think about putting up a vertical on a hill behind my house.  
However I'd have to run 200ft of LMR400 to the base of the antenna
if I were to install it there.  My concern is that a 200ft run is kinda far and
not worth it especially for the loss in db.

Also the other issue is that the hill is not level. It is a never flat, but I plan on put
it on the flattest part of the hill.  I'm sure it is going to make my radiating pattern go away from the hill
primarily, but I have to work with what I got.

I currently have a DX-CC clone installed on house, but the metal in the chimney interferes with the resonance a bit,
so I was hoping to try the hill to see if things come in more clearly.  Also, I have got RFI issues in the house when transmitting on 40m,
and I'm trying to create an antenna away from the house a bit, to see if that helps.  I've already installed a bunch of RFI chokes in the house,
and on the transmission line, and have reduced the RFI alot, but it is still there.

Anyway, I was wondering what the opinions are about putting a vertical 200ft away from my ham shack.  It seems most people in the forums/youtube are able to install their vertical in their backyard within 100ft of their ham shack.  But my backyard is very small and 80% concrete/tile because of our pool. But, directly behind my house is are miles of uninhabited hills with nothing but oil wells. Everytime I look at it I'm thinking of putting an antenna up there.

Attached is a picture that kinda illustrated what it looks like behind my house.
http://aaronryan.com/wordpress_ham/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/VerticalOnBreaHill.jpg

And here is a link to a satellite pic of hill and
my plans of where I'm putting the antenna:
http://aaronryan.com/wordpress_ham/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/VerticalOnBreaHill-satellite.jpg

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Aaron KU6Z
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 03:27:54 PM by KU6Z » Logged
N4NYY
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Posts: 4742




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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »

The calculator says .9 dB attenuation at 14 MHz. 1.3 dB at 28 MHz.

I would not lose sleep over the loss.

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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20547




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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 03:33:36 PM »

If you're drawing is accurate, looks like there are trees farther up the hill.

Why not use those to install a much more elevated dipole and skip the vertical? Wink

If you use a "matched" dipole (parallel, trap, or whatever so it's actually matched for the bands in use) the loss in even 400' of LMR400 isn't much.

When I had a hillside home 1993-1999 (the climb up to the top end of my back yard was 90 feet above the house, which was only 10' above street level, and the yard was over 200 feet deep), my "shortest" coax run going up there was 275 feet; the longer ones were over 300 feet.  I never really noticed anything, regarding cable loss when using matched antennas.
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KF6ABU
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 04:25:20 PM »

The hill, blocking North East is a huge bummer. If it only took another 100ft of coax to be further up the hill, I'd do that. Id also get one of those MFJ or similiar 33ft aluminum push up poles (and guy it) and put a 40m unadilla or similiar trap at the top, with another 25ft or so wire going to a tree up the hill. You can have low SWR over 15m, 40m, and a good part of 80m this way. Still need plenty of radials at the base.

And then put a Glen Martin roof tower on your house with a triband yagi for the high bands :-)
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N4NYY
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »

What he should do is an inverted L, with the feed at the base of where the 6BTV is on the drawing, and then run the wire way up the hill.
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KU6Z
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Posts: 7




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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 05:06:47 PM »

I went hiking up and down the hill, and the flat area isnt very big, and covered in shrubs,
which make putting down the radials more difficult then first thought.

The trees are relatively tall, close to 25ft, and 100ft+ apart and I'm thinking that a G5RV with a remote tuner at the bottom, might work out better.  Is there any other multiband horizontal that would be better, I could move the DX-CC over there too.

-Aaron
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 05:09:04 PM by KU6Z » Logged
WX7G
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Posts: 5920




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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »

Looking at your diagram the vertical will perform no better on the hill than it would at the house. The angle from the antenna to the top of the hill is about the same.

However, your RFI problems will be solved.
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KU6Z
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Posts: 7




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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 05:57:47 PM »

Here is a profile picture of the hill.  The chimney is my house at the bottom of the hill.
It is steeper then drawn in my illustration.
http://aaronryan.com/wordpress_ham/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ProfileofHill-1024x768.jpg
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WX7G
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 06:28:14 PM »

Positioning the antenna for the smallest angle from it to the the top of the hill will be best.
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W8JX
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 06:54:17 PM »

The calculator says .9 dB attenuation at 14 MHz. 1.3 dB at 28 MHz.

I would not lose sleep over the loss.



I agree and even twice that loss is not a big deal on HF though some like to think it is. Especially on receive as atmospheric and man made noise is the limiting factor most of the time and a better receiver that is "quieter" is more important than a db or two less line loss on HF.
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N4NYY
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Posts: 4742




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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 07:47:48 PM »

The calculator says .9 dB attenuation at 14 MHz. 1.3 dB at 28 MHz.

I would not lose sleep over the loss.



I agree and even twice that loss is not a big deal on HF though some like to think it is. Especially on receive as atmospheric and man made noise is the limiting factor most of the time and a better receiver that is "quieter" is more important than a db or two less line loss on HF.

I was wondering with those numbers, if he should not go farther up the hill with even more coax.
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WX7G
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 08:13:34 PM »

You do have a point. Going up the hill does not look like a way to improve the signal toward the hill. But, mounting a horizontally polarized antenna on the hillside will result in a greater effective height in the other direction, assuming the terrain is flat or continues to drop.

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N6GND
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Posts: 338




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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 09:06:29 PM »

I guess if we bought houses with ham radio in mind we might make some other choices. I'm always powerfully struck when I run across photos and descriptions of a QTH like that of Tom W8JI. There are lots of others. Almost no physical limits. Endless antenna design imagination and seemingly unlimited energy for construction. One sort of antenna obsession.

My obsession is completely different.

I never thought about ham radio when I bought this house more than ten years ago. Getting involved with ham radio again has been great fun and one of the most enjoyable aspects has been the game of designing antennas, figuring out the compromises and then building them. It's actually my favorite part of the hobby. I've got two desks, my radio desk and my regular one, piled high with drawings and notes about antennas. I'm constantly searching for parts to complete antenna projects. My roof is flat, rectangular, about 35 ft by 60 ft, easy to get to and I'm up there almost every day adjusting and figuring. It's not just the antennas themselves but how they interrelate with all the others. I'm hoping it's an ensemble but it may be Chaos itself.

I have unending respect for the God of the Compromise QTH. He has given great meaning to my life. I love calculating all my feedline losses, impedance mismatches, radiation patterns and inefficiencies, cross-couplings and counterpoise deficiencies.

Having a "poor" QTH is truly a blessing!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 09:28:37 PM by N6GND » Logged
K7JQ
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Posts: 302




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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 11:02:21 AM »

Aaron, look me up on QRZ.COM. Pictures and description of my screwdriver antenna high on a hill behind my house. It's fed with 450 feet of 9913 (similar specs as LMR 400). I've worked over 250 countries and posted some decent contest scores with it. No artificial noise level, no RFI to anything. You're wondering about a 200 foot run? No problem....do it :>)

73,

Bob, K7JQ
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KG4RUL
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 11:20:56 AM »

Am I correct in assuming that you do not own the property or have explicit, written permission to use it??
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