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Author Topic: Out of band transmit power  (Read 12935 times)
KB4QAA
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Posts: 2259




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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 12:07:33 PM »

To the original question:  Yes, I have seen and measured ham radios transmitting out of band and YES they do not meet the quoted power specifications.  But then, lots of radios vary output even in the ham bands.  I consider the specs to be "nominal power" not iron clad guaranteed.  But then it really doesn't matter much, anyhow.

Edit:  Depending on breaking into public service agency repeaters or nets for safety backup is a shaky deal.  You can't legally test them, you can't be sure of the freq data, and you have to hope your emergency is viewed as dire enough to protect you from prosecution.

As a former volunteer SAR type, my recommendations for wilderness travel:

-Leave detailed travel plans with family or friends with regular check in's and specific directions for when to notify authorities requesting SAR, and their contact numbers.  If traveling on federal or state lands, leave copy with rangers as well.
-PLB or EPIRB and REGISTER IT!!!! keep contact data updated.
-Cell
-Ham radios, U/V and HF
-FRS/MURS
-Satellite phone if truly in outer wilderness

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KB8VUL
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Posts: 105




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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 06:46:07 PM »

  If you are looking at 1500 for a radio, you are looking the wrong places.  Ebay is full of commercial radios that would work nicely for what you are looking at and not cost more than 300 or 400.  That being said, this "you never know bullshit" is just that, bullshit Angry Angry.  You clowns that think because you went out and got a ham license and bought a radio that will listen to the police and fire frequencies you should be allowed to talk on them is stupid.  How about we start handing out ham radios to everyone and when they get a flat tire or are broke down or they forgot their cell phone at home they just use the auto patch on the local repeater to call and order a pizza.  I mean they forgot their cell phone and it's important that they feed their kids so we can let that slide right?  I get so tired of the continued idea of this just in case shit.  You DONT" NEED TO BE ON THE POLICE RADIO... NOT NO WAY NOT NO HOW!!!   NEVER!!!!  First off, if there is something going on and communications are down, chances are that a public safety dispatcher is going to be overloaded with stuff as it is.  Second, you have NO CLUE what might be going on at the point that you decide to play hero and start calling CQ or whatever,  their may be some cop working his way around a house to make a bust when his radio starts going off and he gets shot over it.  Yes, it's happened, if you didn't hear the dispatcher call for emergency traffic only, or know what the code is for it, you may cost an officer his life.  It's simple, DON'T DO IT.  YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME..  SO STAY OFF. 
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KT0DD
Member

Posts: 277




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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 03:00:35 AM »

Gosh, the above poster is quite a rude a**  amateur. I never said anything about police radio. I stay away from that period. There is a search and rescue mutual aid freq I am allowed to use as part of SATERN assistance and the local county SAR in emergency exercises and actual emergencies.

Anyway, I said I would choose a Satellite phone and a WOUXUN Part 90 Cert, radio for Emcomm.
Yes the WOUXUN KG-UV6X is Part 90 certified! If you doubt it, do your own research.

If I'm going to get scolding posts from rude people, keep it to yourself. I dont need the attitude!

As far as I'm concerned, I have all my answers and this thread is closed for me! 
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NN4RH
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Posts: 302




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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 05:51:41 AM »

Being "part 90 certified" doesn't mean that just anyone is allowed to transmit with it legally. You'd still need a part 90 license.


My guess is that we'll eventually see these cheap chinese radios for sale at Kmart and Walmart, and all sorts of people will buy them and invade the ham bands without licenses. Then the shoe will be on the other foot and we'll see how people feel about unlicensed transmissions.
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KB8VUL
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Posts: 105




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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 07:43:23 PM »

Gee, let me see here,,, you were talking about "Just in Case".  Any other time I hear that it's just in case I need to talk to the police.  But you are claiming that you actually have no intention of that.  You just want to talk on the SAR channels.  Well news flash, it depends on what the SAR group is using rather or not it's part 90.  Could be GMRS, or Itenerant, or FRS... it which case your radio is NOT legal.  Also, the WOUXUN is not part 90 because it has a VFO, try again.  More over, it's not truely part 97 either because it does TX outside of the allocated ham band.  Strike two.  Third, you were talking about taking a radio out of band.  Now since the radio out of the box will TX and RX from 140 or so to 174, it's NOT out of band.  So again, just what are you talking about here???

As far as being rude, thanks for noticing.  In addition to being an amateur license holder I am a professional radio technician  and have been for some time.  So amateur only applies when I am talking on ham.  When I am working on police, fire and other public safety, public service and private commercial radio systems, I am working as a professionals.  And the one thing I get form all those folks that is universal is that they DO NOT WANT ANYONE, LEAST OF ALL HAMMIES, on their frequencies.  SO, until you have a signed letter from the Sheriff, local Police Chief, local Fire Chief, SAR license holder, STAY OFF THEIR FREQUENCIES, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME... NOT FOR ANY REASON, NOT NO WAY NOT NO HOW...

Based on your call sign database address, I will take the liberty of contacting your local officials so that if they have someone show up on their channels unauthorized and uninvited they will have a place to start looking.
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KCJ9091
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Posts: 0




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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 07:14:00 AM »

Also, the WOUXUN is not part 90 because it has a VFO, try again.

KG-UV6D V2 (the one I happen to have handy) FCC ID# WVTWOUXUN04
YES, it is.

More over, it's not truely part 97 either because it does TX outside of the allocated ham band.

Show us the the rule that requires Part 97 transmitters to be approved.

Strike two.


Yep that is two.  One more and you are out.  If you are going to be rude and crude at least you could be right.
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KS4VT
Member

Posts: 141




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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 02:27:38 PM »

You will find that most of the limitations will be with the provided antenna and not the transmitter or the receiver. In my testing of typical amateur grade antennas they are very narrow in bandwidth (<10 MHz) and above 150MHz are very lossy and could cause the transmitter to begin to cutback in power.  Yes they might RX OK, but receivers are very forgiving and really don't care about antenna resonance.

Even commercial Part 90 radios come with antennas that come in bandsplits, with the exception for radios such as the Motorola APX and Harris Unity radios.
Commercial portable radio antennas cut for a center frequency of 155MHz will usually not work very well below 146 MHz on transmit if you swept it on the return loss bridge where the VSWR would be 3 to 1 if not more.

I'm not going to get into the legalities of transmitting out of band, but the Rules for operating in Part 90 spectrum DO NOT extend to Part 97 equipment for a number of reasons.  If the OP doesn't know the rules in Part 90, I suggest he go read them.
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KT0DD
Member

Posts: 277




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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 04:14:41 PM »

Also, to answer some remarks about the FCC regulations...Here it is in plain english...

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.
No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.


 
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KT0DD
Member

Posts: 277




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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 04:34:56 PM »

Being "part 90 certified" doesn't mean that just anyone is allowed to transmit with it legally. You'd still need a part 90 license.

From WN9HJW:
"My guess is that we'll eventually see these cheap chinese radios for sale at Kmart and Walmart, and all sorts of people will buy them and invade the ham bands without licenses. Then the shoe will be on the other foot and we'll see how people feel about unlicensed transmissions."

Funny thing about cheap Chinese trash...I just sold a Yaesu (japanese) FT-270 and on the side of the box it said "Made in China"

From KB8VUL
"Based on your call sign database address, I will take the liberty of contacting your local officials so that if they have someone show up on their channels unauthorized and uninvited they will have a place to start looking."


 KB8VUL... You threatening me doesn't bother me in the least bit since I'm not doing anything wrong and I'm just exercising my 1st amendment right of free speech. I am not transmitting willy-nilly on police radios nor will I ever.. really...do you think the police are going to worry about wasting their time on something that hasn't happened and will not happen? You must be delusional. The DSM IV probably has your diagnosis listed somewhere.
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KS4VT
Member

Posts: 141




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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 05:32:34 PM »

Also, to answer some remarks about the FCC regulations...Here it is in plain english...

§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.
No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

Except when you venture into other areas of the spectrum where the licensee does not hold an authorization for.  Part 90 is very specific in stating this:

(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with § 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.

Just because someone has a Part 97 license, I believe it does not give then blanket authority to program in or transmit on frequencies of another licensee in an area of spectrum that they are not authorized for.  They can go anywhere they want in the areas of the spectrum that their license allows.

And as for utilizing Part 97 equipment in Part 90, the rules are very clear:

§ 90.203 Certification required.
(a) Except as specified in paragraphs (b) and (l) of this section, each transmitter utilized for operation under this
part and each transmitter marketed as set forth in § 2.803 of this chapter must be of a type which has been certificated
for use under this part.  and

(e) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, transmitters designed to operate above 25 MHz shall not be certificated for use under this
part if the operator can program and transmit on frequencies, other than those programmed by the manufacturer,
service or maintenance personnel, using the equipment’s external operation controls.


And while we are at it, we need to take this part of the Rules into the mix:

§ 2.405 Operation during emergency.
The licensee of any station (except amateur, standard broadcast, FM broadcast, noncommercial educational
FM broadcast, or television broadcast) may, during a period of emergency in which normal communication facilities
are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake, or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency
communication service in communicating in a manner other than that specified in the instrument of authorization:
Provided:
(a) That as soon as possible after the beginning of such emergency use, notice
be sent to the Commission at Washington, D.C., and to the Engineer
in Charge of the district in which the station is located, stating the nature of
the emergency and the use to which the station is being put, and
(b) That the emergency use of the station shall be discontinued as soon as
substantially normal communication facilities are again available, and
(c) That the Commission at Washington, D.C., and the Engineer in
Charge shall be notified immediately when such special use of the station is
terminated: Provided further,
(d) That in no event shall any station engage in emergency transmission on
 frequencies other than, or with power in excess of, that specified in the instrument
of authorization or as otherwise expressly provided by the Commission, or by law:
And provided further,
(e) That any such emergency communication undertaken under this section
shall terminate upon order of the Commission.
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KT0DD
Member

Posts: 277




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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 02:23:33 AM »

And that is the crux of the whole discussion here. If I understand the emcomm term, it means EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS which is what I said in the very first paragraph I started this whole thread about.

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT OPERATING WILLY-NILLY ON UNAUTHORIZED FREQUENCIES!

Some peoples reading comprehension is just non-existant.

I see some contradicton problems between the Part 97 vs Part 90 regs regarding emergency communication IN AN EMERGENCY. The part 90 regs spell out the proper procedures for reporting and documenting the emergency communication situation much more specifically, which is welcome information. However, how can someone be expected to know part 90 rules if the only test he takes covers Part 97 rules?

 If the .01% chance happens, and the ability to contact someone on a mutual aid frequency saves me or someone else from a heart attack, hunting or hiking accident, I would gladly get a medical doctors report and / or sheriffs report and file it with the regional FCC office. At least I might still be alive to fill out the paperwork.

And what about participation in search and rescue operations where you are given permission to use their search and rescue frequencies by the local SAR commander (who usually is a Sheriff) when you may be out looking for someone who is lost or injured. Would you have to have your own part 90 license, or do you fall under their license?



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KS4VT
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 02:49:58 AM »

And what about participation in search and rescue operations where you are given permission to use their search and rescue frequencies by the local SAR commander (who usually is a Sheriff) when you may be out looking for someone who is lost or injured. Would you have to have your own part 90 license, or do you fall under their license?

At that point you would have to use their equipment, or equipment that they would have to acquire, on frequencies that they are authorized for. You would be operating under their license at the time.  Another option for them is to use VHF MURS or FRS Part 95 equipment for SAR and anyone could buy and use the radios on those frequencies at anytime for anything.

But I must mention that the local Sheriff cannot grant the authorization for Part 97 equipment use in Part 90 or 95
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KT0DD
Member

Posts: 277




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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 03:05:14 AM »

Thank You for the info. FINALLY...someone who is helpful and constructive! Our local SAR frequency is in the old 155. range. Most of the local police / fire are on the new scrambled 800mhz systems anyway.

And for those who lose sleep over worrying about what other people are doing...I am no longer in posession of my modded HT. I sold it yesterday. I will however be contacting our local sheriffs dept communications officer / tech to see if they will either furnish me a radio or if the type accepted Wouxun part 90 radios are acceptable to them BEFORE I get one.

73 to the helpful people here.  To the control freaks...I hope you get a life someday.

KT0DD
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KS4VT
Member

Posts: 141




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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 07:57:51 AM »

You might want to read the first few pages of the NIFOG.  It has very worthwhile Part 90 Rule information.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/nifog-v1-4-resized-for-pda-viewing.pdf

Thank You for the info. FINALLY...someone who is helpful and constructive! Our local SAR frequency is in the old 155. range. Most of the local police / fire are on the new scrambled 800mhz systems anyway.

And for those who lose sleep over worrying about what other people are doing...I am no longer in posession of my modded HT. I sold it yesterday. I will however be contacting our local sheriffs dept communications officer / tech to see if they will either furnish me a radio or if the type accepted Wouxun part 90 radios are acceptable to them BEFORE I get one.

73 to the helpful people here.  To the control freaks...I hope you get a life someday.

KT0DD
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W3JKS
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Posts: 197


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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 08:12:12 AM »

Before you run off on ePay and buy someone's MT1000 or Saber for Part 90 use, don't forget the FCC's Narrowband Mandate.  That is one reason that public safety users are being forced into buying new radios. 
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