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Author Topic: Vertical & 1.5Kw VS Tribander & 200w  (Read 4846 times)
W4VKU
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Posts: 342




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« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 06:55:06 PM »

I have tried everything from verticals with tuned radials, G5RV and Yagi's.
Like was mentioned, putting up a Rohn 25 for 100ft is no big deal, provided one has the real estate.

Hands down, the answer is a yagi. I would do the vertical for 80/160m. The yagi simply helps
hear better and esp in the keys with nothing around and a saltwater path in all directions, it would do
quiet well. The salt water effect diminishes after several hundred yards inland i think, well of course
unless there is a marsh nearby. So may not help the vertical much. A phased vertical will be good. But
a 3 element yagi will beat in forward gain as compared to a 4-sq. Atleast thats my observation
with a 2Ele yagi on 40m and a 4-sq. There is atleast 1 Sunit difference at the Dx location. In a pileup,
this will make a difference. Moreover, the 4-Sq is not completely steerable like a yagi. The yagi is less noisy.

The issue with the vertical is on the Rx. It ain't as good as the yagi. I won't even debate this issue.
I do an A/B/C switch here between the G5RV, Yagi and vertical on 40m.
Krish
w4vku
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KY6R
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 03:43:02 AM »

If I had a 100' tower, I would put up a stack of two multiband yagi's or two 20M 5 element yagi's - hi hi. I even have a 4 element OWA design that is similar to Tom's design in "Array of Light" - on 24' booms. I'd stack two of those . . .

But hey, I have a stack of two 2 element yagi's on 17M for 7 dBd gain - and am very, very pleased. (Full details on my QRZ.COM page, including a pretty picture).  Grin

That only required a 55' tower, and it also works very well on 20M.
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W6GX
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 02:15:24 PM »

My choice would be the vertical.

A yagi could possibly put out the better signal but one needs to be reminded that a vertical near salt water will provide the biggest bang for the buck.  If you have a tower then you'll know what I'm talking about.  Erecting a tower is a huge financial investment.  And when you move you lose a big part of the investment.  And there's also maintenance costs due to age/sun/wind/ice, etc.

If I'm in a position of needing BS7 the smarter move would be to borrow a friend's 100 ft. tower for that one contact.  I'll be happy with just a vertical on salt water knowing that it could work almost as well as a yagi majority of the time (provided that the vertical antenna is over salt water).

73,
Jonathan W6GX
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N4OGW
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Posts: 282




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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2013, 02:19:29 PM »

One comment about the OWA designs: They look great on paper, but it is mechanically hard to stack the OWA's that are designed for shorter booms. For example 6 elements on 10 on a 24 ft boom, or 6 on 15 on a 36 foot boom. What you will find is that there is usually an element very close to the center of the antenna. This makes it very hard to mount and rotate them when mounted in the middle of a tower in a stack. The long-boom monster OWA's don't have this problem.

Tor
N4OGW


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AF3Y
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Posts: 3677




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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2013, 02:42:33 PM »

My choice would be the vertical.

A yagi could possibly put out the better signal but one needs to be reminded that a vertical near salt water will provide the biggest bang for the buck.  If you have a tower then you'll know what I'm talking about.  Erecting a tower is a huge financial investment.  And when you move you lose a big part of the investment.  And there's also maintenance costs due to age/sun/wind/ice, etc.


73,
Jonathan W6GX

Yep, when I left the S.C. QTH, I gave my 60 foot tower away, along with a Force 12 C-3SS which was up top,  just to get it (and the foundation) removed. The people who bought my house on Lake Marion did not want the tower and antenna OR the foundation in their yard. I also gave him my homebrew 17 meter delta loop.

73, Gene AF3Y
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KY6R
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 02:58:05 PM »

One comment about the OWA designs: They look great on paper, but it is mechanically hard to stack the OWA's that are designed for shorter booms. For example 6 elements on 10 on a 24 ft boom, or 6 on 15 on a 36 foot boom. What you will find is that there is usually an element very close to the center of the antenna. This makes it very hard to mount and rotate them when mounted in the middle of a tower in a stack. The long-boom monster OWA's don't have this problem.

Tor
N4OGW




Interesting - thanks for the input. I guess stacking two over two is a simple and effective solution. As for a yagi on a tower I have a very simple answer.

DON'T BOTHER WITH A TOWER THAT REQUIRES A CONCRETE FOOTING  Grin

I have a 55' military mast that I rotate from the bottom and brought it home in the back of my BMW X3. See my QRZ.COM page for details.

I knew that I was going to retire in 10 - 12 years, and the AB-952 is going with me when I move.

The most gain comes from the first 2 elements anyway 4.1 dBd, and at my QTH, F/B wasn't nearly as important as forward gain. In fact, even 1 4 element OWA with a 24' boom on 20M was too top heavy for my mast system - so I went with the 2X2 stack.

I have modeled Moxon's with aluminum elements and wire on the sides, and might try that some day - just to get more F/B. It was just mechanically much easier to build 2 2 element yagi's.

I would not take a vertical over an AB-952 with a 2X2 stack. I had a 43' vertical here and it paled in comparison to the stack - or even just one 2 element yagi.

Gene said the vertical wasn't right on the water - and you don't have to go very far away from the water's edge to lose that advantage.

Now - a vertical on a dock over Tomales Bay would be a different story - then I would take a vertical over a tower any day.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 03:01:37 PM by KY6R » Logged
WD4ELG
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Posts: 860




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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2013, 03:13:13 PM »

Rich, who makes that mast of yours?
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KY6R
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2013, 03:21:46 PM »

Rich, who makes that mast of yours?

They are military surplus, and the models that are most popular are:

AB-952 - 4" diameter double walled aluminum in 5' interlocking sections
AB-577 - 5" diameter  "
AB-621 - 6" diameter  "

http://www.ontariosurplus.com/masts.htm

Sells them. They go very fast. They are getting expensive though - because they are so popular - but every now and then someone unloads one for cheap. Check the ham classifieds too.

I found mine - a 55' mast / tower for $800, which is a real steal - in "as new" condition. I found three floating guy rings and have it guyed in three places and I created a "plumbers special" way to lag bolt it to the side of my deck.

I easily rotate the stack by hand by walking 20 paces out of my shack - onto my deck, and voila! I'm "aimed".

Before the stack, I had an A3S up 45' with the G450 rotator on top of the mast - and it was fine through 50 mph winds. We hardly ever get wind and even our rain is only 21" a year - so its a very mild climate here. So - there is a limit to these.

I bought a C3S for $150, and some day might put it up instead of the stack, but because the stack works very well on 20M, and "good enough" on all bands higher than 17M - I'm not sure.

I like having one band where I have a killer signal . . . .
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 03:39:10 PM by KY6R » Logged
K0AP
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Posts: 117




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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2013, 03:36:06 PM »

In my opinion, on the HF frequencies 3el beam at 60' (let alone 100') over salt water will beat by quite significant margin your vertical over salt water almost any time/any day. The verticals over salt water work great but are no match to a 3el beam at 60' (let alone 100'), over salt water. Why do you think all these big contest stations in the Caribbean put all these towers and beam antennas. If this was the case, they would have easily go with verticals and save the money. If you want to be competitive and increase your chances of getting into the log of that rare DX and if money is not a problem, then tower and beam is the way to go for HF. In most cases people will use vertical by the beach because they cannot afford tower/beam, they have restrictions or they are on vacation and the QTH on the beach is not their permanent residency. Again, if you want to compete in the pileups and decrease your chances of not working that rare DX, then tower and beam should be essential part of your HAM shack.

73 Dragan K0AP
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N5UD
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Posts: 775




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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2013, 10:54:07 AM »

Gene, did you get a satisfactory answer ?

I would have to say the real factor is MUF, SFI. Maybe time of year. If we are talking SFI 70. Then 30M and 40M
might be the only chance. Then the 1500 watts with the vertical is the winner. I would bet even with a higher MUF, the vertical can make the QSO
on those bands.

However on higher than 20M, a yagi beats the pants off my mobile vertical. High power sure makes a difference too. Having the ability to hear equally
poor in all directions, I hear a lot pile up callers. Many times it seems the caller can not really hear the DX as the DX gives a report 3-5 times !

To be a bit fair, even at times I will miss a report due to QSB or intentional QRM. But to miss multiple times, it just doesn't happen.

Back when I had all the big gun stuff, I could work anything I could hear. I also could hear more than most. I only had a pair of 3-500s for the amp. This included 40 meter CW.
4+ element quad at 90 feet. The boom was extended to full 40M dipole. Also had 2 el 40M yagi mounted lower.

If 900 watts could do it, then today's 1500 watts sure should. 

Now up to about 280 DXCC mobile from Texas in 2 years. Sure hard to come by a new one now.
Still tough breaking east coast for HV and SV/A.

73 Tony N5UD
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AF3Y
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Posts: 3677




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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2013, 02:23:56 PM »

Sure, Tony.  They all were satisfactory, and most were somewhat informative, which was what I expected with an "Open-Ended" Question/post like that.

An interesting bunch of answers, and I appreciate them all. This group is full of some pretty sharp guys. Most of them put me to shame when it comes to antenna knowledge. I have just always put something in the air, and if it works, I left it up. If it did not work well, I took it down.
Even today, with only the vertical, it seems that "if I can hear em, I can work em". Obviously my vertical has rx faults, noisy and no ability to null out unwanted signals. But, I CAN tell you, it outdoes my friend's rotatable tri-band dipole at 35'.

The Force 12 C-3SS is/was the only yagi type antenna I have ever used. I also had the 6BTV and a homebrew 17 meter delta loop. All of these were at the S.C. QTH. I honestly did not do much better with my "mini antenna farm" there, than I have done here with only the 31' wire vertical. No other differences either, as I had QRO in S.C. as well. Plus, I was on a couple acres on Lake Marion, so very little QRN as compared to here in Florida. I think my DXCC count was around 295 when I moved here in Dec of 2010, so I have worked abound 17 ATNOs in a couple years. (Obviously better conditions, plus the numerous well-run expeditions have made that possible.) I wish I could stick a delta loop out behind the house. The one I had in SC really worked well!

73, Gene AF3Y
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N5UD
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2013, 05:51:32 PM »

Sure, Tony.  They all were satisfactory, and most were somewhat informative, which was what I expected with an "Open-Ended" Question/post like that.

An interesting bunch of answers, and I appreciate them all. This group is full of some pretty sharp guys. Most of them put me to shame when it comes to antenna knowledge. I have just always put something in the air, and if it works, I left it up. If it did not work well, I took it down.
Even today, with only the vertical, it seems that "if I can hear em, I can work em". Obviously my vertical has rx faults, noisy and no ability to null out unwanted signals. But, I CAN tell you, it outdoes my friend's rotatable tri-band dipole at 35'.

The Force 12 C-3SS is/was the only yagi type antenna I have ever used. I also had the 6BTV and a homebrew 17 meter delta loop. All of these were at the S.C. QTH. I honestly did not do much better with my "mini antenna farm" there, than I have done here with only the 31' wire vertical. No other differences either, as I had QRO in S.C. as well. Plus, I was on a couple acres on Lake Marion, so very little QRN as compared to here in Florida. I think my DXCC count was around 295 when I moved here in Dec of 2010, so I have worked abound 17 ATNOs in a couple years. (Obviously better conditions, plus the numerous well-run expeditions have made that possible.) I wish I could stick a delta loop out behind the house. The one I had in SC really worked well!

73, Gene AF3Y

Doing as well or better than in SC. Right on better band conditions.
However I believe being in Florida helps too.
I was just down on Miss Gulf coast mobile.
Definitely better signals there than here in Texas. I notice it every time I go mobile down there.
40M mobile one evening: EY EX, ......   RX6LG and ER4DX both 59+ 20 or more and got on first call mobile.

73 and GL Tony
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WA6MJE
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2013, 07:44:38 PM »

I am stuck in HOA hell, and am limited to verticals, or attic antennas.  BUT, I recently bought a "vacation" condominium on the beach in Port Hueneme California, the first beach community north of Malibu.  It is also HOA hell, but I bought on the third (top) floor and have a patio with no physical restrictions stopping me from putting a 32 foot portable tripod vertical and elevated radials on 40 meters that goes out at night and back during the day.  Reading this thread intrigues me about the value of being near salt water.

When I started experimenting with hidden antennas I bought Buddipole equipment and there is a companion text that has a great deal dedicated to the value of a vertical next to salt water.  But, as I read more, the understanding I got was that I would have to actually be on the sand, within a few feet of salt water.  My condo is about 500 to 1000 feet from the surf.  But that is clear and unobstructed except for a couple of trees, and a public parking lot. So I gave up the idea, and chase DX from my more inland home.

I can work Europe, Japan and Russia, the typical easy stuff, but a lot of what I see in hamspots I cannot hear on JT-65.  But, I note that other hams in 6 land can hear what I cannot.  I am trying to focus on 40 M at night where I can put up a full size elevated vertical.  To hear better, I just bought a KX3 to replace my Icom 7000.  I work mostly JT-65 and they frown on more than 50 watts.  So I hesitate to just throw more power at improving my DX capability.  But as soon as Elecraft offers the 100W amp for the KX3 I will buy it as I am not a QRP purist.

So my question is this.  The comments above talk about salt water being useless at some distance from the station, but I would be interested in know how far.  I have not tried bringing my gear there, but since it is all portable, it would not be a big deal if it would be worth the effort.  I am going to be improving my antenna situation, and if that does not do the trick for me, I am running out of options other than to work portable from my condo, or I am even considering throwing the gear in my car, and just heading for a site on Pacific Coast Highway where I can park at the waters edge, throw up a full size vertical with elevated radials, and work until my batteries run out.

Or actually, there is a fishing pier directly across the street from my condo, and I have thought about bringing the KX3 and a Buddipole vertical out to the end of the pier which would put me about 1000 feet out over the salt water facing south, and using the vertical in a vertical dipole configuration dropping the counterpoise over the side of the pier toward the water. 

My preference is to stay in my home or my condo where I can spend more time on the air than I would do if I were outside, and got cold, hot or hungry.  But, when I see DX that I miss I become a desperate man willing to suffer Smiley   

It is fun nonetheless making slight improvements to my station over time, and slowly but surely my capability is improving. 
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N5UD
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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2013, 05:32:56 PM »

As I understand it, to get the gain effect of vertical on salt water. You have to mount the antenna within 1/2 wavelength of the water, or naturally on it.

I operate mobile in one moderate hot spot at times. It is on a hill above a large fresh water lake. About 200 yards from the shoreline. I get a clear shot to the west across the lake, and to some hills about 5 miles away. I get a 10-15 mile clear shot north northwest down the lake. This location does make some difference in working DX for me. No gain I am sure. Also a rare quiet spot. Usually free of power line noise.

I will go up there fishing ! Some times I catch more DX.

73 Tony N5UD



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K1DA
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« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2013, 11:27:42 AM »

I'd take a  100 feet of tower and turn it into a 4 square, then see what's what.
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