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Author Topic: ARRL OO Notices for JT65 Users  (Read 16300 times)
AA4PB
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Posts: 13032




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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2013, 07:16:48 AM »

"The problem is when an operator tells someone on the air that their signal is wide the one being told usually gets bent out of shape"

It sounds here like many respond the same way when an OO tells them too. On the one hand you say that other ops are reluctant to tell someone if their signal is too wide and on the other you don't want an OO to tell you.

I think the common sense thing to do is to check out your signal by running some tests to see if the OO was correct. In any case, drop him a card (or e-mail) thanking him for his time and telling him what you found.

"But if an OO can not copy the CW id at the end of a JT65 transmission he/she should not be an OO"

That may be but since there is no longer a CW requirement it's going to be harder and harder to find people who can copy CW. There may be a day when nobody at the FCC monitoring sites can copy CW either.
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N5TMC
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2013, 09:07:18 AM »

I don't know about the rest . I don't see the problem that seems to going on . I do know this .....

Laura Smith from the FCC recently attended the Orlando Convention and the Georgia Section Manager spoke with her and wrote this later in his section newsletter.  “Laura Smith, FCC Council for Enforcement spoke at the ARRL Forum. She talked about the necessity of self-enforcement for hams and that it takes two to get into a confrontation. You treat me and I treat you as we wish ourselves to be treated; and take a breath, relax, and don’t take yourself so seriously. She used her ten-year old daughter who was present. Question: “What do you do when you meet someone for the first time?” Answer: “Say ‘Hello’ and tell my name. “ (We must identify every 10 minutes.) “What do you do when someone is mean or says bad things to you?” Answer: “Leave and go tell an adult”. Etc. So from “out of the mouths of the babes” we should already know the answers. When the topic came to the Amateur Auxiliary (Official Observers) she became even more emphatic about her reliance and the FCC’s reliance on them. They are extremely important and she has an ear for them. Someone mentioned the occasional abuse that the “OO” receives which she acknowledged and forcefully said that (underline) if you ever, ever threaten an “OO” she will literally put you on her list and will monitor you in detail for the rest of her career. “You really would much rather get a note from an OO than from me”, she says. The OO is there to help you prevent that note
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W1ITT
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 08:59:08 AM »

It's obvious that the FCC's budget cuts have limited enforcement operations in recent years, so the OO system (Amateur Auxiliary) has the potential to serve well as the "self policing" component of the Amateur Service.
I have occasionally tried to determine what, if any, specific qualifications are required to be appointed as an OO.  I gather that ARRL Section Managers make those appointments.  (It's not clear to me whether appointments are available to non-ARRL members...).  It would be interesting to know if any special endorsements are necessary to monitor complex digital signals, for example.  Anyone with a stopwatch can count 10-minute ID violations, if that is of interest, but evaluating digital signals requires more complex understanding of transmit problems, as well as possible errors induced by receiver configurations.  And I suspect that most OOs, not being independently wealthy, attempt to do this without benefit of professional grade spectrum analysis equipment.  Caution is advised.
How much credence does Laura's Enforcement Bureau give to the technical conclusions of these well meaning, but apparently unvetted Observers?    I know it's not an easy job, but it needs to be done correctly...and with technical rigor.
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AF5FH
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 09:02:39 AM »


You do not need an OO to tell you that your signal is wide. Someone operating PSK31 will tell you that. The problem is when an operator tells someone on the air that their signal is wide the one being told usually gets bent out of shape.


In my case, I did not know there was an issue with my previous interface until I got the postcard from the OO. I made about 270 QSO with the previous interface, many of those with psk31, lots of "599" reports.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 09:55:57 AM »

I'm sure the FCC is not taking any legal action based upon technical analysis made by an OO. In serious rule violation cases the FCC may enlist the cooperation of OOs in monitoring, making recordings, etc. but they aren't going to revoke a license or issue a fine based solely on an OO's report.

The primary function of the OO is to let you know of a potential problem so that you can correct it BEFORE you get a violation notice from the FCC.

Some people are making way too many assumptions about the OO program.
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N4CR
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Posts: 1703




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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 09:42:39 PM »

In my case, I did not know there was an issue with my previous interface until I got the postcard from the OO. I made about 270 QSO with the previous interface, many of those with psk31, lots of "599" reports.

And that is because 270 operators didn't tell you that your signal was wide. "You're 59" and move on rather than saying "It looks like you have distortion on your signal" or "Your signal is covering 450 hz in bandwidth".

Sure, you (figuratively) may blame it on the first person that tells you that. But when it comes from everyone you contact, you might just start to suspect it's something in your gear.

When I see a wide signal on PSK, I tell them. If I can't tell them, I look up their call and send them an email with a picture of their signal. Most of the time they respond that they had no idea, nobody told them.

Tell the truth. If they can't handle it, that's their problem. It certainly shouldn't take 270 qso's to find out.
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73 de N4CR, Phil

Never believe an atom. They make up everything.
K1DA
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Posts: 539




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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 09:39:15 AM »

I suggest all "OOs" check to see that their noise blankers are off. 
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N1KCG
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Posts: 51




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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 10:31:09 AM »

N4CR - very interesting fair interpretation.  But life in the RF is not fair.  There are way too many bullies out there, hiding under distance, and quick contact.  Bullies that will say there is nothing wrong with their RF, and to go pound sand, as a first comment.  Am getting more and more shocked how various folks feel that being a bully is okay.  Its a brave new world of OO monitoring. 

Is there is no civility?; to just try to educate and be educated, and recognize differences of opinion might have about four different answers.

1)  What was actually said
2)  What you think you said.
3)  What was actually heard
4)  What you think you heard.

All are different.  All are valid.  Those that think they have all four versions nailed down should not be trusted.  Hope this make sense to those who care.  Listen and respect each other FIRST, and wait a day to see if their is still an issue that should be reported, or should be responded to.  Would hope the OO listens and respects an articulate response back.     
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N4CR
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 02:39:42 PM »

N4CR - very interesting fair interpretation.  But life in the RF is not fair.  There are way too many bullies out there, hiding under distance, and quick contact.  Bullies that will say there is nothing wrong with their RF, and to go pound sand, as a first comment.  Am getting more and more shocked how various folks feel that being a bully is okay.  Its a brave new world of OO monitoring. 

Is there is no civility?

Well, it's true that a lot of schoolyard bullies grew up but never stopped being bullies. We've all encountered them. Once I identify an adult bully, I make every attempt to put them out of my life and I guard how I let them influence me.

I try to be diplomatic and relay facts in a polite way. I have enough qso's under my belt, understand my equipment well enough and have enough test equipment to feel I'm on relatively firm ground. If they take it badly, I did my small part and I did it as diplomatically as I could. Then I move on. I don't argue about it.

We should notice when the Emperor doesn't have any clothes on and if nobody tells him out of fear of being beheaded then he just runs around naked forever.

Even if 1 out of 25 did some kind of diplomatic notice, soon the guy might get the message. But 270 qso's before someone tells you your signal should be put in prison is not a proportional response to the problem.
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73 de N4CR, Phil

Never believe an atom. They make up everything.
KO3D
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Posts: 49




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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2013, 05:45:05 AM »

I think this "OO"'s time would be better spent looking into 14.313. I'll probably get a notice now since I dare to question the mighty ARRL.

What are these bad practices of which you speak?

One is over modualated signals, but the measurement is being conducted using just the waterfall in JT65-HF, in spectrum lab, the "over modulated" signals are fine, and we have completed a whole host of tests to prove this..

Then the other is not ID'g at the end of transmission when sending "LOTW 73 TU" or such in free txt, even though the CW ID is turned on... I have gotten 54 reports of this overnight all from the same OO
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AC4BB
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Posts: 46




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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2013, 09:21:04 PM »

   Most" OO's" are great. You have a few that go overboard all of the time. Those are the ones that need to be weeded out.
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KO3D
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Posts: 49




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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2013, 09:32:20 AM »

The OOs should worry about what's happening on 14.313 and 75m phone before they start examining JT-65 signals. The fact that they seem to be using the JT-65HF waterfall for the analysis is comical. Since you would have to be broadcasting fast-scan porn on the ham bands to get the FCC's attention these days, I don't see the purpose for the OO program, except to give an old guy something to do during the Pat Boone bath tub ads while he watches The Rifleman reruns.
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W5WSS
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2013, 10:54:29 AM »

Ko3d hehe. Grin
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N0YXB
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Posts: 331




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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 03:47:08 PM »

The OOs should worry about what's happening on 14.313 and 75m phone before they start examining JT-65 signals. The fact that they seem to be using the JT-65HF waterfall for the analysis is comical. Since you would have to be broadcasting fast-scan porn on the ham bands to get the FCC's attention these days, I don't see the purpose for the OO program, except to give an old guy something to do during the Pat Boone bath tub ads while he watches The Rifleman reruns.

You are apparently unaware of amateur radio's self policing heritage?  I'm not defending the OO in this case, but that doesn't mean the entire program is without its purpose.
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AD9DX
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Posts: 1519




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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2013, 05:12:59 PM »

The OOs should worry about what's happening on 14.313 and 75m phone before they start examining JT-65 signals. The fact that they seem to be using the JT-65HF waterfall for the analysis is comical. Since you would have to be broadcasting fast-scan porn on the ham bands to get the FCC's attention these days, I don't see the purpose for the OO program, except to give an old guy something to do during the Pat Boone bath tub ads while he watches The Rifleman reruns.

You are apparently unaware of amateur radio's self policing heritage?  I'm not defending the OO in this case, but that doesn't mean the entire program is without its purpose.

I don't think KO3D is complaining about the self policing, rather the nature of the policing.  While there are a ton of really bad practices that are going on, the OOs are picking on guys who are using a narrow bandwidth mode typically running under 50w. 
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EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
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