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Author Topic: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?  (Read 12003 times)
W1VT
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Posts: 860




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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 06:44:37 AM »

Instead of putting up a modest Rohn 25 tower, put up a big Rohn 55 tower so everyone in the neighborhood can see the American Flag displayed properly--way up in the air, not hidden in the trees!

I have a picture of my flagpole proudly displayed on my QRZ.com page--it even has a solar panel, car battery, and LED spotlight to properly illuminate it at night!

Zack W1VT
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KB2FCV
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Posts: 1296


WWW

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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2013, 07:18:55 AM »

I think so long as you keep proper flag etiquette, I don't see a problem with it.

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N2RJ
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Posts: 1222




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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2013, 01:44:23 PM »


My question is a simple one:  Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?

NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.
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K8CMO
Member

Posts: 116




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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2013, 02:06:33 PM »

Working DX from a condo is not as hopeless as some have implied.  I live in a condo now and have only a G5RV with antenna tuner.  My location is not very good either.  I live in a river valley at only about 600 feet above sea level.  I use a Kenwood TS-590 with an ALS-600 when needed.  My G5RV is strung into the trees behind my condo, and I have not failed to get through a pileup yet in a reasonable period of time.  In fact, in a few cases I have been one of the first stations worked in a pileup.  I worked H40T, XR0YG, TX5K, etc. through good pileups.  I continue to add new ones to my 345 total (326 current).
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K3VAT
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Posts: 756




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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2013, 02:11:58 PM »

...
Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?
...

No Chris, no problem here (actually the question is a bit miss-worded, but folks seems to understand what you mean).

The flag pole serves a dual function: flying the Stars-and-Stripes and as a vertical antenna.  K3VAT


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K7KB
Member

Posts: 618




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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2013, 02:21:28 PM »

Fly the Jolly Roger and pace back and forth on your front lawn singing Yo Ho Ho at the top of your lungs. Talk to an imaginary parrot on your shoulder.

No one will mess with you.

LOL - Completely understandable and I concur Smiley

John K7KB
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NU1O
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Posts: 2749




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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2013, 03:49:31 PM »

NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.

Hi Ryan,

The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.  Do you think enough people are incensed over this issue to go prison or start a second American revolution?  That's the analogy you are making.

Keep in mind when one disobeys a law(s) one must be prepared to face the consequences so it shouldn't be done cavalierly. The Founding Fathers signed their death warrants when they affixed their names to the Declaration of Independence.  Had the Colonies lost the War of Independence the signers would have been convicted of treason and hung.

I am normally sympathetic to hams that live under HOA's but what caught my attention in this case was that the ham moving to the duplex was thinking about using an indoor antenna and another ham suggested he use a flagpole antenna since the US flag's display is protected by the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2006.  I'm sure that act was not passed with any intention it would allow amateur radio operator's the ability to help disguise a ham radio antenna as an American flag. That was my only reason for creating the topic.

CC&R's can have many restrictions. To a ham an outdoor antenna can be very important but to an animal lover the CC&R might mean no dog or cat, or a size limit on the pet. There are even developments which prohibit children under a certain age. So long as the restrictions are not unconstitutional (such as barring minorities) courts have upheld CC&R's.  Also, they are volunatry. Unless a ham is no longer in charge of his/her life they can't be forced to move to a home with an antenna restriction.

I don't think breaking an antenna restriction is a serious matter but on the other hand I don't think having a cat or dog in a restricted area is a very big deal, either. I just hope the hams who violate a CC&R to erect an antenna are understaning if they find out a neighbor is breaking a rule for something they find dear.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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AA4PB
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Posts: 12980




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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2013, 04:08:43 PM »

What is the purpose of the antenna restriction? It is supposedly because the neighbors don't want to look antennas all over the property. If they can't see the antenna (because it also surves as a flag pole) then what difference does it make? How does it harm the neighbors?

What if I come up with some magic paint that makes the antenna totally invisible so nobody can even tell it's there? Is that still immoral because the HOA says no antennas?

The HOA says no antennas so what about the neighbors cell phone - it contains an antenna. What if he has a weather radio with a 1-foot whip on it? That's an antenna. The car parked in his driveway has an antenna on it. An what about the satellite dish on his roof?
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AC4RD
Member

Posts: 1235




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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2013, 04:40:46 PM »

The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.

Chris, you are entirely right.  And one other facet of your argument is this:  the HOA restrictions have nothing to do with LAW as such.  HOA CCRs are a matter of a civil agreement and a signed contract.  People who buy houses with CCRs do so voluntarily--it has nothing to do with law, it's an agreement they agreed to up front.  That doesn't mean it isn't negotiable ... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.  Big difference, I think.
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N4CR
Member

Posts: 1692




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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2013, 07:17:28 PM »

... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.

A contract that violates a state or federal law is held invalid in a lot of cases. For example, if you signed a contract to move into an HOA and one of the provisions was that you would not vote until you reached the age of 55, it would be unenforceable in any court of law. There are many other examples. Too bad that PRB1 federal law isn't one of them...

But you are correct. it's a civil issue between the HOA and the violator and it's a voluntary program. Nobody HAS to buy a house in a HOA neighborhood.
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73 de N4CR, Phil

Never believe an atom. They make up everything.
N2RJ
Member

Posts: 1222




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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2013, 07:19:09 PM »

NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.

Hi Ryan,

The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.  Do you think enough people are incensed over this issue to go prison or start a second American revolution?  That's the analogy you are making.

Keep in mind when one disobeys a law(s) one must be prepared to face the consequences so it shouldn't be done cavalierly. The Founding Fathers signed their death warrants when they affixed their names to the Declaration of Independence.  Had the Colonies lost the War of Independence the signers would have been convicted of treason and hung.

I am normally sympathetic to hams that live under HOA's but what caught my attention in this case was that the ham moving to the duplex was thinking about using an indoor antenna and another ham suggested he use a flagpole antenna since the US flag's display is protected by the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2006.  I'm sure that act was not passed with any intention it would allow amateur radio operator's the ability to help disguise a ham radio antenna as an American flag. That was my only reason for creating the topic.

CC&R's can have many restrictions. To a ham an outdoor antenna can be very important but to an animal lover the CC&R might mean no dog or cat, or a size limit on the pet. There are even developments which prohibit children under a certain age. So long as the restrictions are not unconstitutional (such as barring minorities) courts have upheld CC&R's.  Also, they are volunatry. Unless a ham is no longer in charge of his/her life they can't be forced to move to a home with an antenna restriction.

I don't think breaking an antenna restriction is a serious matter but on the other hand I don't think having a cat or dog in a restricted area is a very big deal, either. I just hope the hams who violate a CC&R to erect an antenna are understaning if they find out a neighbor is breaking a rule for something they find dear.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.
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NU1O
Member

Posts: 2749




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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2013, 08:19:44 PM »


Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.

You have written so many dumb posts in this forum that you'll have to excuse me for being confused.

I don't think your tongue was in your cheek, I think it was up a lower body orifice.  Grin

My only regret is spending time trying to get you the VU7M QSL. That is time I wish I had back and hadn't wasted on you.

Chris/NU1O

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NU1O
Member

Posts: 2749




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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2013, 08:57:56 PM »

What is the purpose of the antenna restriction? It is supposedly because the neighbors don't want to look antennas all over the property. If they can't see the antenna (because it also surves as a flag pole) then what difference does it make? How does it harm the neighbors?

You don't have a written biography and I have no idea how old you are but those that create CC&Rs claim the purpose is to protect property values and since one's home is usually their largest investment you can't blame people for trying to protect their property's value.

If you ever get the chance take a look at an old movie from the 1950's like "On the Waterfront" or any movie showing a big urban city with many apartment buildings. There were as many TV antennae on a roof as there were apartments and it was not a pretty site.

Before we had cable or satellite TV almost all of us had an outdoor TV antenna. As a radio amateur I never thought they were ugly but other people did, and when they started to rust and fall into disrepair even I would agree they became unsightly.

73,

Chris/NU1O




« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:39:16 PM by NU1O » Logged
NU1O
Member

Posts: 2749




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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2013, 10:41:26 PM »

Chris, you are entirely right.  And one other facet of your argument is this:  the HOA restrictions have nothing to do with LAW as such.  HOA CCRs are a matter of a civil agreement and a signed contract.  People who buy houses with CCRs do so voluntarily--it has nothing to do with law, it's an agreement they agreed to up front.  That doesn't mean it isn't negotiable ... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.  Big difference, I think.


I don't know how negotiable they are but you are correct in that they are an agreement made by owners who have a common interest in a property development and as Dan, WD4ELG, points out they will be with us for a very long time since they pass with each successive sale.  My family's law firm has handled some cases regarding CC&Rs but about the only way they can be challenged is if enforcement is arbitrary. The best defense if not to join one in the first place.

This is not a small matter. With the growth of common property there must be tens of millions affected by these things.

Are there an old "X-File" fans in the group?  Now that I've given this some thought I recall a specific "X-File" episode which spoofed CC&Rs. It seems the head of the HOA brought home a "monster" from one of his trips to the Orient. If one didn't obey all the rules - and there were hundreds of rules - the monster would strke.  Agents Mulder and Scully were assigned to the case and moved into the neighborhood as husband and wife. The monster eventually killed the evil head of the HOA and the agents got rid of the monster which I assumed was a metaphor for the CC&R.  I usually preferred the alien conspiracy episodes, though.

73,

Chris/NU1O
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N2RJ
Member

Posts: 1222




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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2013, 05:56:26 AM »


Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.

You have written so many dumb posts in this forum that you'll have to excuse me for being confused.

I don't think your tongue was in your cheek, I think it was up a lower body orifice.  Grin

My only regret is spending time trying to get you the VU7M QSL. That is time I wish I had back and hadn't wasted on you.

Chris/NU1O



You wasted what? You yourself told me you didn't have anything to do with it... Last I checked I worked them with my rig and antennas and sent my greenstamps and used my postage to mail the letter. I had no idea that QSL was something you had to have a third party negotiate on your behalf unless you were a QSL manager.
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