Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What should very rare DX-peditions cocentrate on?  (Read 6722 times)
W9KEY
Member

Posts: 1131




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 04:39:37 PM »

my vote might not be the most popular one, but i would say: 12, 17, and 30 meters. 
Logged
K3NRX
Member

Posts: 2060


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2013, 06:07:05 PM »

When calling by the numbers...just  don't do it!! Call by continent or region, sure, and maybe occasionally by numbers just for Europe, but absolutely not for NA unless you're on a rare NA entity like the UN or KP1, where NA geography doesn't really come into play.

STRONGLY DISAGREE!....Do it, and do it quickly so everyone is satified in a timely fashion without worrying about the band dropping out....no more than 15 - 20 calls per area bang bang....Some of us are not as big as you, Pete...and may even be smaller once a move to a different living arraingment is made....I know you don't care, but some of us do......here comes the hornets nest!....LOL....

I'm not that big a gun, contrary to what a few here believe. And as I said, I did a good part of my DXCC (at least 240 entities) on a 30' dipole and either 100 or 500W. Nets and lists were unnecessary, although I did work a few in the first year before I learned better. And yes, working by numbers did get a couple of counters in the log but nothing I couldn't have done the normal way with a little more effort.

As I posted above, number will HURT the little guy far more than help. If you just missed the DX calling 3's, Vince, assuming you're a good conscious op who follows the DX Code of Conduct (you ARE, aren't you?), then you cannot even CALL for about a half hour. Period. That means a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE you'll get in the log. Now, what if he's calling East Coast North America only. A lot more will call, but in that same time you will have a significantly greater-than-zero chance since you'll be able to call after each QSO. If you're a smart operator, you'll find his QSX, make sure your amp is tuned, know his pattern and where to drop your call in next. And if you don't have an amp, you can at least hope he hears you when you're in the right place. I'll take a 1% chance of working a new one over a 0% chance.

With all due respect, Pete..(and Geno)...MULE MUFFINS!!!!....I just spent the last two hours of my evening screaming my lungs up in another pile up from HADES for A92GR in Bahrain....A country that has eluded me forever and 25 years......Yes, it would have been an all time new one for me....but no.....it was yet another one the "challenges" that some of you guys live for......with the usual kilocycle cops effing up for everyone when he went split.......I don't buy any of your "zero percent" chance when a station calls by numbers/call area.....had A92GR called that way, I may have had a fighting chance..(mind you, not knocking him for it..he can operate any way he wishes...Just saying if he had gone the numbers route, my chances of getting thru would have been better)....."Hoping" he hears me your way is like "Hoping" the Pittsburgh Pirates go all the way to the World Series......so again, with all due respect.....AIN'T BUYING IT!!....now if you will exuse me, after this latest futile attempt at breaking a pile filled with lids, vultures, radio cops, thugs, pugs, and mugs by screaming my lungs up for one of those "challenges," I am parched, I am pissed, and I have to pee.....and I am going to bed.....maybe tomorrow I will be in a better mood.....but after this, and continuing to wait for my ZL9HR qsl CARD, I probably won't be......I bid you a good night!.......

 Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes....... Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked....................

V
KA3NRX

« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 06:17:46 PM by KA3NRX » Logged
NO2A
Member

Posts: 821




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2013, 06:10:12 PM »

How about the dx calling individual states? It would eliminate the problem of a W2 who lives in a different call area. It also would give everyone a fair shot. Sure,it may take longer but you could alternate states quickly. Especially for the real rare entities.
Logged
W2IRT
Member

Posts: 2807


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2013, 07:01:51 PM »


With all due respect, Pete..(and Geno)...MULE MUFFINS!!!!....I just spent the last two hours of my evening screaming my lungs up in another pile up from HADES for A92GR in Bahrain....A country that has eluded me forever and 25 years......Yes, it would have been an all time new one for me....but no.....it was yet another one the "challenges" that some of you guys live for

A9 should not be that hard. I'm surprised. I've worked him in contests and normally, usually with good signals. He's on regularly, so why not drop him an email and see if he'll do a sked with you sometime?

I don't buy any of your "zero percent" chance when a station calls by numbers/call area

How do you not see this? He calls for 3s. You drop in your call and don't make it this round (cuz more 3s with power are calling). He moves on to 4s. If he works each call area for 3 minutes, you  will have ZERO chances for 30 minutes if you don't act like a lid and call out of turn. Assuming he works 4 a minute (one Q every 15 seconds, not unreasonable for a non-DXpedition op), you have 12 chances in a half hour or 24 an hour to drop your call in and be heard, and hopefully he won't get tired and go QRT or the band won't die before he gets to number 3 again. If he's working normally, or just calling for North America or Eastern NA (which I consider fair), and has a good rate going, you have can have 240 chances an hour if he's working that same 4-a-minute rate. And what happens if the wife comes in the shack when he's finishing up 2s and tells you to take the garbage out *now*...and when you get back he's starting in on 4s?

It took me about 8 months to work my first A9 (A92EV, Feb. 22 2002 on 15 SSB) after getting licensed, and that was long before I had an amp or good antenna. My working condx for that QSO was a TS-820S (100W) and a 10-40m dipole 35' above the ground, with an MFJ tuner and New York City industrial-level noise. I didn't work another one until I worked A92GR in 2004 and again in 2005.

It's all about the math. You can't do anything about frequency cops but you can possibly find a way to enlist some of your fellow OP's assistance in improving your station a little bit here or there and you will get some of these guys. Sheesh, an amp would work absolute wonders for you if you can find one that may need a little work and TLC to get running, and again, perhaps a bit of help from a local club.
Logged

www.facebook.com/W2IRT
Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll.
W6GX
Member

Posts: 2985




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2013, 10:26:17 PM »

How about the dx calling individual states? It would eliminate the problem of a W2 who lives in a different call area. It also would give everyone a fair shot. Sure,it may take longer but you could alternate states quickly. Especially for the real rare entities.

This will never work.  As of now the QRM is already so bad with people calling out of their turn.  When an Op asks for a W6 you still have the whole world calling.  What makes you think people will obey the instruction especially when there's no way to verify the caller's state without going to QRZ.  At least with calling by number the Op could disregard anyone from trying to sneak it through.

73,
Jonathan W6GX
Logged
W6GX
Member

Posts: 2985




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:17 PM »

When calling by the numbers...just  don't do it!! Call by continent or region, sure, and maybe occasionally by numbers just for Europe, but absolutely not for NA unless you're on a rare NA entity like the UN or KP1, where NA geography doesn't really come into play.

STRONGLY DISAGREE!....Do it, and do it quickly so everyone is satified in a timely fashion without worrying about the band dropping out....no more than 15 - 20 calls per area bang bang....Some of us are not as big as you, Pete...and may even be smaller once a move to a different living arraingment is made....I know you don't care, but some of us do......here comes the hornets nest!....LOL....

I'm not that big a gun, contrary to what a few here believe. And as I said, I did a good part of my DXCC (at least 240 entities) on a 30' dipole and either 100 or 500W. Nets and lists were unnecessary, although I did work a few in the first year before I learned better. And yes, working by numbers did get a couple of counters in the log but nothing I couldn't have done the normal way with a little more effort.

As I posted above, number will HURT the little guy far more than help. If you just missed the DX calling 3's, Vince, assuming you're a good conscious op who follows the DX Code of Conduct (you ARE, aren't you?), then you cannot even CALL for about a half hour. Period. That means a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE you'll get in the log. Now, what if he's calling East Coast North America only. A lot more will call, but in that same time you will have a significantly greater-than-zero chance since you'll be able to call after each QSO. If you're a smart operator, you'll find his QSX, make sure your amp is tuned, know his pattern and where to drop your call in next. And if you don't have an amp, you can at least hope he hears you when you're in the right place. I'll take a 1% chance of working a new one over a 0% chance.

With all due respect, Pete..(and Geno)...MULE MUFFINS!!!!....I just spent the last two hours of my evening screaming my lungs up in another pile up from HADES for A92GR in Bahrain....A country that has eluded me forever and 25 years......Yes, it would have been an all time new one for me....but no.....it was yet another one the "challenges" that some of you guys live for......with the usual kilocycle cops effing up for everyone when he went split.......I don't buy any of your "zero percent" chance when a station calls by numbers/call area.....had A92GR called that way, I may have had a fighting chance..(mind you, not knocking him for it..he can operate any way he wishes...Just saying if he had gone the numbers route, my chances of getting thru would have been better)....."Hoping" he hears me your way is like "Hoping" the Pittsburgh Pirates go all the way to the World Series......so again, with all due respect.....AIN'T BUYING IT!!....now if you will exuse me, after this latest futile attempt at breaking a pile filled with lids, vultures, radio cops, thugs, pugs, and mugs by screaming my lungs up for one of those "challenges," I am parched, I am pissed, and I have to pee.....and I am going to bed.....maybe tomorrow I will be in a better mood.....but after this, and continuing to wait for my ZL9HR qsl CARD, I probably won't be......I bid you a good night!.......

 Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes....... Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked....................

V
KA3NRX

Vince,

I agree with you completely.  I spent the first two years running a dipole and I know your pain.  I have worked a few DX stations that called for simple antennas only and to me that was the best thing ever to a small station.  When I hear a DX call by numbers I often feel a sense of gratitude, not for myself but for the thousands of little stations out there.  I don't have a problem waiting for my turn as I know a lot more stations would appreciate the contact more than I do.

73,
Jonathan W6GX

73,
Jonathan W6GX
Logged
W6GX
Member

Posts: 2985




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2013, 10:42:10 PM »


With all due respect, Pete..(and Geno)...MULE MUFFINS!!!!....I just spent the last two hours of my evening screaming my lungs up in another pile up from HADES for A92GR in Bahrain....A country that has eluded me forever and 25 years......Yes, it would have been an all time new one for me....but no.....it was yet another one the "challenges" that some of you guys live for

A9 should not be that hard. I'm surprised. I've worked him in contests and normally, usually with good signals. He's on regularly, so why not drop him an email and see if he'll do a sked with you sometime?

I don't buy any of your "zero percent" chance when a station calls by numbers/call area

How do you not see this? He calls for 3s. You drop in your call and don't make it this round (cuz more 3s with power are calling). He moves on to 4s. If he works each call area for 3 minutes, you  will have ZERO chances for 30 minutes if you don't act like a lid and call out of turn. Assuming he works 4 a minute (one Q every 15 seconds, not unreasonable for a non-DXpedition op), you have 12 chances in a half hour or 24 an hour to drop your call in and be heard, and hopefully he won't get tired and go QRT or the band won't die before he gets to number 3 again. If he's working normally, or just calling for North America or Eastern NA (which I consider fair), and has a good rate going, you have can have 240 chances an hour if he's working that same 4-a-minute rate. And what happens if the wife comes in the shack when he's finishing up 2s and tells you to take the garbage out *now*...and when you get back he's starting in on 4s?

It took me about 8 months to work my first A9 (A92EV, Feb. 22 2002 on 15 SSB) after getting licensed, and that was long before I had an amp or good antenna. My working condx for that QSO was a TS-820S (100W) and a 10-40m dipole 35' above the ground, with an MFJ tuner and New York City industrial-level noise. I didn't work another one until I worked A92GR in 2004 and again in 2005.

It's all about the math. You can't do anything about frequency cops but you can possibly find a way to enlist some of your fellow OP's assistance in improving your station a little bit here or there and you will get some of these guys. Sheesh, an amp would work absolute wonders for you if you can find one that may need a little work and TLC to get running, and again, perhaps a bit of help from a local club.

From my own experiences when a DX station (disclaimer: non-dxpedition) is working by numbers usually he works all the signals he could hear for a particular number before he moves on to the next number.  If there are a lot of '3' stations calling all with great signals then I don't see the reason why he should move to the next number.  He will usually say 'last call for #3' when he couldn't hear any signals anymore.  This will take a long time to cycle through all the numbers but it gives the little pistols a chance.  Lastly the big guns will get impatient of waiting as they probably don't need the DXCC as badly as the little pistols.  So only those stations with a huge desire and a ton of patience will prevail.

73,
Jonathan W6GX
Logged
K3NRX
Member

Posts: 2060


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 03:56:21 AM »


With all due respect, Pete..(and Geno)...MULE MUFFINS!!!!....I just spent the last two hours of my evening screaming my lungs up in another pile up from HADES for A92GR in Bahrain....A country that has eluded me forever and 25 years......Yes, it would have been an all time new one for me....but no.....it was yet another one the "challenges" that some of you guys live for

A9 should not be that hard. I'm surprised. I've worked him in contests and normally, usually with good signals. He's on regularly, so why not drop him an email and see if he'll do a sked with you sometime?

I don't buy any of your "zero percent" chance when a station calls by numbers/call area

How do you not see this? He calls for 3s. You drop in your call and don't make it this round (cuz more 3s with power are calling). He moves on to 4s. If he works each call area for 3 minutes, you  will have ZERO chances for 30 minutes if you don't act like a lid and call out of turn. Assuming he works 4 a minute (one Q every 15 seconds, not unreasonable for a non-DXpedition op), you have 12 chances in a half hour or 24 an hour to drop your call in and be heard, and hopefully he won't get tired and go QRT or the band won't die before he gets to number 3 again. If he's working normally, or just calling for North America or Eastern NA (which I consider fair), and has a good rate going, you have can have 240 chances an hour if he's working that same 4-a-minute rate. And what happens if the wife comes in the shack when he's finishing up 2s and tells you to take the garbage out *now*...and when you get back he's starting in on 4s?

It took me about 8 months to work my first A9 (A92EV, Feb. 22 2002 on 15 SSB) after getting licensed, and that was long before I had an amp or good antenna. My working condx for that QSO was a TS-820S (100W) and a 10-40m dipole 35' above the ground, with an MFJ tuner and New York City industrial-level noise. I didn't work another one until I worked A92GR in 2004 and again in 2005.

It's all about the math. You can't do anything about frequency cops but you can possibly find a way to enlist some of your fellow OP's assistance in improving your station a little bit here or there and you will get some of these guys. Sheesh, an amp would work absolute wonders for you if you can find one that may need a little work and TLC to get running, and again, perhaps a bit of help from a local club.

(W6GX: Thank you...Nice to see I am not alone here)

Pete...Baby...Luv ya man....BUT I don't see how you don't see that the "by numbers" process reduces the numbers of calling lids, vultures, screamers, alligators, thugs, mugs and pugs, thus allowing stations like mine to "compete" (as some of you feel this is a race or a life and death thing) only with our our own call area/stations with the same number......I don't expect you "competitors" to get it.....I told you guys threads ago, I am not it this to "compete"  I am not in this to step on anyone....I am not in this to yell and scream (but if I have to do any of these things to get what I need, I begrudgingly will)........I am in this to transmit, and work countries on the radio......There has to be a better way, and in my opine, a DX station taking the masses by number/call area in an orderly and timely fashion is that better way......we are never going to see eye to eye on this as it has been firmly established the we have different views on how things should be done.....this is a hobby, NOT fricken NASCAR or a cook-off to see which dining establishment has the best burger in town, or something that affects someones bottom line, or physical life......A HOBBY....it's supposed to be FUN.....I am beginning to feel it's no longer fun anymore.....Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that....

V

KA3NRX

P.S. would you back your theory applying it to the singeling out of the West Coast?Huh (I was waiting for the Bahrain station to do that last night, at which point, I would have just about lost it!).....I wonder....

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 04:11:37 AM by KA3NRX » Logged
N2RJ
Member

Posts: 1222




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 06:35:00 AM »

By the numbers goes very slow and reduces the rate at which DXpeditions can make contacts.

I don't like it at all...

If your station "cannot compete" that doesn't mean that everyone else has to slow down so you can get a contact. The pileups tend to thin out near the end of the DXpedition anyway. For example, I worked 3B7C on 40m using a ground mounted hustler 5btv which is a very modest antenna. They weren't going by the numbers.

I can cite two examples of where things went right and things went wrong.

TI9KK. Terrible, terrible pileup control. They even went simplex on the first day which is unheard of. They also went by the numbers, were slow as molasses and people began calling out of turn. They didn't make that many contacts.

VP6DX. Excellent pileup control. Smart splits, worked with propagation and stuck to it. No working by the numbers. They broke records.

However, both were worked by big guns and little pistols alike. The little pistols did have to wait until closer to the end though.

Finally, look at my friend Bill KB3LIX. 100 watts and a chunk of zip cord. Doesn't seem to stop him...
Logged
AF3Y
Member

Posts: 3841




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 07:03:16 AM »


There has to be a better way, it's supposed to be FUN.....I am beginning to feel it's no longer fun anymore  V
KA3NRX


Vince, a couple suggestions for you.  First, if you cannot or will not improve your antenna, you REALLY need to find yourself some QRO.  Obviously, you are just not getting the attention of the DX as often or as easily as you would like. As someone mentioned, a used Ameritron, or whatever, can be picked up for much less than you would think. It WILL make a ton of difference, and lower your blood pressure while you are at it. (Keep a check on the classified boards.........)

Secondly, sharpen up your CW...... I dont have to tell you, SSB attracts all the guys who CANNOT do CW, and there obviously are a helluva lot of them. (Along with CW ops who like self punishment) Nothing against non-CW types, but you have been at this long enough (much longer than me) to realize that CW is the way to HR or whatever your goals are.(Monaco, for instance Cheesy). Set your cluster filter for ONLY CW spots. Go and get the DX...!!

Third, make your odds a LOT better, by getting off of the damned 20 meter band. Every yahoo and their dysfunctional family has a 20m band antenna. Put a lot of listening emphasis on the WARC bands, for instance. They seem to have much less activity, even with a semi-rare DX active. Try it, you'll LIKE it!

I think we BOTH know that a 20meter SSB pileup is no place for the meek, or the little pistol, unless you have a lot of time and strong vocal chords.  I would stay away from there.... Most of the DX work more than one band. DONT MAKE IT HARDER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE Grin.

Lastly, relax OM...... We do NOT want to see another SK listing from a High Blood Pressure 'blow-out".  You love this hobby much more than you want to admit........ Thats OK, but when it gets too much to handle, do something else, as least for a little while. Maybe you could figure out a way to pick up a few extra bucks for that QRO! No matter where you are, there are always people who need something done that someone (you?) can find a few minutes to do for them. I know a guy who walks dogs here in our community.... Not the easiest job, but he says it keeps him in beer money. hihi Hang in there OM!

73, Gene AF3Y

Logged
N2RJ
Member

Posts: 1222




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 07:11:37 AM »


Third, make your odds a LOT better, by getting off of the damned 20 meter band. Every yahoo and their dysfunctional family has a 20m band antenna. Put a lot of listening emphasis on the WARC bands, for instance. They seem to have much less activity, even with a semi-rare DX active. Try it, you'll LIKE it!


Quoted for truth.

A lot of my new pick ups were on the WARC bands, and I actually do pretty good there because of the SteppIR. I have 4 elements on 17 and 12 and 3 elements on 30. With 200 watts on 30 I am king of that band. Smiley
Logged
W1VT
Member

Posts: 860




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 07:41:54 AM »

Having fun!   Grin

Everyone has a different idea of what is "fun."

Some ops like high rates--others like to work grey line paths or rare DX. Some like to talk to their buddies back home, while others get a real kick out of working newbie call signs...  

I figure if they went all the trouble to get there and operate--they get to decide what they want to do.  

Seriously, having operated portable in many times adverse conditions, you just try to do the best you can with what you have.  

Zack W1VT
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 07:48:57 AM by W1VT » Logged
W6GX
Member

Posts: 2985




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 07:50:48 AM »

A lot of my new pick ups were on the WARC bands, and I actually do pretty good there because of the SteppIR. I have 4 elements on 17 and 12 and 3 elements on 30. With 200 watts on 30 I am king of that band. Smiley

I have ten elements on 17m however none of those elements are resonant on 17m Cheesy  I modeled my antenna in EZNEC and on 17m the pattern looked like a rotatable dipole Shocked  Pumping 1500w into the semi-dummy load I actually do pretty well on 30m, 17m, and 12m.  I can't even imagine what's like to have four elements on 17m and 12m.

73,
Jonathan W6GX
Logged
W2IRT
Member

Posts: 2807


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 09:30:34 AM »

A lot of my new pick ups were on the WARC bands, and I actually do pretty good there because of the SteppIR. I have 4 elements on 17 and 12 and 3 elements on 30. With 200 watts on 30 I am king of that band. Smiley

I have ten elements on 17m however none of those elements are resonant on 17m Cheesy  I modeled my antenna in EZNEC and on 17m the pattern looked like a rotatable dipole Shocked  Pumping 1500w into the semi-dummy load I actually do pretty well on 30m, 17m, and 12m.  I can't even imagine what's like to have four elements on 17m and 12m.

You don't need anything that fancy for WARC. I have a Force-12 2/2/1, which is two elements on 17, two elements on 12 and one element (a rotatable dipole) on 30m. My totals speak for themselves (317/298/306 respectively).
Logged

www.facebook.com/W2IRT
Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll.
W6GX
Member

Posts: 2985




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 10:14:07 AM »

A lot of my new pick ups were on the WARC bands, and I actually do pretty good there because of the SteppIR. I have 4 elements on 17 and 12 and 3 elements on 30. With 200 watts on 30 I am king of that band. Smiley

I have ten elements on 17m however none of those elements are resonant on 17m Cheesy  I modeled my antenna in EZNEC and on 17m the pattern looked like a rotatable dipole Shocked  Pumping 1500w into the semi-dummy load I actually do pretty well on 30m, 17m, and 12m.  I can't even imagine what's like to have four elements on 17m and 12m.

You don't need anything that fancy for WARC. I have a Force-12 2/2/1, which is two elements on 17, two elements on 12 and one element (a rotatable dipole) on 30m. My totals speak for themselves (317/298/306 respectively).

Yeah, however you are no ordinary DXer Wink

73,
Jonathan W6GX
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!