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Author Topic: Grandfathered renewals ???  (Read 10772 times)
N6JSX
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Posts: 217




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« on: April 11, 2013, 09:13:14 AM »

A few months ago I read a call to eliminate retesting of expired licenses for renewal. Upon proof of original license the holder could just complete a 605 and obtain the renewal. Where is this Rule change?  Huh

The logic is sound as those who have lapsed passed the tests to obtain their original class of license, so any retest of expired licenses is merely a penalty (for temporarily changing your life's priorities). Some Rules may have changed during the absence but what are the odds that a changed rule is on any retest? And a renewal is still repsonsible in following all current Part 97 Rules!  Shocked
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AL7MM
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Posts: 42




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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 11:27:57 AM »

Kuby -
Here's a link to the NPRM:
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db1002/FCC-12-121A1.pdf

I don't agree with the concept of eliminating the retest requirement for expired licenses. While simply renewing your license does not mean that you are an active ham, letting it expire (+ 2 years grace period) does indicate that you are not active in ham radio.  Frankly, I'd like to know how many hams are affected by this? I doubt that many extra class hams inadvertently let their licenses expire, the majority of the target audience is probably techs (and not too many at that). If the ham in question is still proficient (as the request states) it should take more than a couple of hours to review a test guide and get a new license issued.

73,
Mike, KL7MJ
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KG6AF
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Posts: 357




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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 01:11:07 PM »

As far as I know, the FCC has not yet acted on the NPRM.

We're past the deadline for filing comments and replies to comments, but if you're interested in what folks said, you can find the filings here:

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment_search/execute.action?proceeding=12-283&applicant=&lawfirm=&author=&disseminated.minDate=&disseminated.maxDate=&recieved.minDate=12%2F21%2F11&recieved.maxDate=&dateCommentPeriod.minDate=&dateCommentPeriod.maxDate=&dateReplyComment.minDate=&dateReplyComment.maxDate=&address.city=&address.state.stateCd=&address.zip=&daNumber=&fileNumber=&bureauIdentificationNumber=&reportNumber=&submissionTypeId=&__checkbox_exParte=true
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N2EY
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Posts: 3880




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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2013, 11:43:19 AM »

I don't agree with the concept of eliminating the retest requirement for expired licenses. While simply renewing your license does not mean that you are an active ham, letting it expire (+ 2 years grace period) does indicate that you are not active in ham radio. 

I agree 100%. Particularly since the license term is now 10 years and the grace period 2 years. And you can renew for free online.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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N6JSX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 11:00:29 AM »

MM & EY:

The only reason to require a retest is "they broke the faith" and MUST be penalized for doing so - they must go through the pain/burden of retesting to prove to YOU their allegiance to HAMdom once again (even though they were a 'real' 20wpm Extra that got called to military duty and just plain forgot due to other life priorities) or they got married, started a family, building a new business or career (with other life priorities).

Sense they have fallen from the flock (possibly less than three years ago) they must start all over from scratch to get their license.

How magnanimous of you.  Roll Eyes
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AA4PB
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 11:30:56 AM »

So you think that a person who has't touched a radio in 50+ years should be able to renew his long expired license without retaking the test? In the last 50 years rules have changed a lot and electronics has moved primarily to solid state.

I agree with MM & EY. You need to draw a line somewhere and a 10 year license term plus a 2 year grace period (12 years total) should provide plenty of time.
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N6JSX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 01:21:33 PM »

Wow, you guys using math to create relevancy to your feeble argument is amazing, all you think of is the extremes of 12yrs, 50yrs, etc. Of course you totally discount my math showing how a lapse of less then 3yrs can put a lapsed HAM back to square zero.

Hypothetically: the x-HAM went into the military on year 9 of his license, he does four years overseas, he gets out, gets a job/wife/family. It is now 3yrs going on 4yrs since his ticket expired. Oops sorry all your HAM efforts are nil, you must start all over again as penitence. The Rules and electronics have hardly changed in those lapsed four years and the odds are a new rule will NOT be a your retest but you MUST do it all over again so we can insure you're a true believer. (I use military but it could be a college student too.) 

There is no money to be made by VE's or FCC. So why the vindictive attitude?

That lapsed HAM has proven he had the technical ability to obtain the license, true some Rules 'may' have changed (many not for good but for the busine$$). Can you truthfully tell me those NEW Rules will be on the retests? NO! Will this reinstated HAM be exempt from any Part 97 Rules, NO!

I wish we still had Code tests to filter out the lazies but it's not good for HAM busine$$, I don't like it but its the Rule. [I still say Extra should require 5wpm.] I still do not understand how the FCC could hold anyone accountable for proper use of Code ID'ing since they no longer test to confirm knowledge. Logic dictates that 97.119 is unenforceable if Code ID is used.

Oh, I'm a born-again HAM, now +40yrs. My ticket lapsed while in the Navy overseas - I did 10yrs active, got married, a child, then out, to an aerospace job, and began night school for my EE degrees (that took forever) and had to start all over - taking the tests, again. Does it make you feel good getting an extra pound of blood from me? Does it make me a better HAM? Simple answer is no, however, I've gained the ability to critically call out hypocrisies.
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N0IU
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Posts: 1298


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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 05:42:20 AM »

Frankly, I'd like to know how many hams are affected by this? I doubt that many extra class hams inadvertently let their licenses expire, the majority of the target audience is probably techs (and not too many at that).
73,
Mike, KL7MJ
I disagree with this especially now that I see so many on the forums who boast about going from being unlicensed to Extra at one sitting. I know I will have to get my flame suit on for saying this, but they are just Techs with a higher class of license. The likelihood of renewing your license comes from your interest and dedication to the hobby, not your class of license.

But anyway...

Why not have a lifetime license? Besides, we practically have one now anyway.

People say things like, "But so much has changed with technology and regulations..." and that doesn't wash. When you renew your license, all you are telling the FCC is that you want to renew your license for another 10 years, nothing else. There is no testing whatsoever when you renew. There is nothing to show you have kept up to date with technology or the regulations. You don't even have to own a radio to get a license! You just go to the ULS section of the FCC website, click a few buttons and go on about your merry way and that is it. Heck, my wife got her Tech ticket in 2000, renewed in 2010 and she has never been on the air... not even once! (She just wanted to prove to me she could do it... and she did!)

So as far as the FCC is concerned, what's the difference?
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12854




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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 07:29:22 AM »

The only difference is that in the case of a long expired license the FCC knows that the person hasn't been on the air (legally at least). My extream example of 50 years was intended to make the case that perhaps we need to draw a line somewhere. Do most states let people renew their drivers licenses without a test some 10-20 years after their license has been expired?

Amateur license exams are so easy to get to these days I don't know why anyone is complaining about having to retake the test after the grace period has expired - unless of course they really don't know the rules and regs.
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N6JSX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »

PB: Can you still ride a two wheel bike or roller skate? Will vehicle drivers once licensed ever loose their touch in driving? NO! Vehicles sure have changed, have a few driving laws changed, YUP! But you are still liable to follow the laws even if it is not on your drivers exam!

Heck, in 2007, I went on a business trip to Belgium, my first time in EU. Avis rent-a-car had no problem renting me a car. What a wake up call I got when trying to use my home-USA printed Google Maps, where in English and I soon found all the Belgium signs were in French..... I needed to head towards the city Liege to get to Welkenreadt, but unknown Liege signage in Belgium says 'Luke'. That is when dead reckoning took over. Not until I got within 10-clicks did I see a sign 'Leggie' - I did not know until that moment I was heading in the right direction (under cloudy skies) at wow speeds on really good conditioned freeways.   

Also that red triangle with an exclamation point is very serious sign as it changes the traffic law. I condemn Avis-Belgium for not having a signage sheet at the desk or in the vehicle and renting it to a USA person.

But I was still fully responsible for my actions in violating any of Belgium's laws - being an ignorant Yank might have got me out a small violation. But I was still allowed to drive first time in a foreign country with out testing!

Quote
Amateur license exams are so easy to get to these days I don't know why anyone is complaining about having to retake the test after the grace period has expired - unless of course they really don't know the rules and regs.
 
So the logic of your premise is "the tests are so easy" MAKE them take 'em all again, with your implied motive to PENALIZE a person for falling from 'the HAMdom grace' no matter if it has been 3yrs or 50yrs? I hope they are near VE's, (ahhhh bet you never thought of this complication/burden or you don't care since it adds to the penalization). 

Again I state, how magnanimous of you hardliners.
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N6JSX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 12:15:10 PM »

Gee whiz, my original posting has strayed off message/info-request.....
Let the eHAM hits counter keep toggling....
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AB9NZ
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Posts: 176




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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 04:00:39 PM »

Boy, I'm with you Kuby, someone with health troubles, a sick kid or spouse, or any one of a million of life's difficulties doesn't need to be beaten down for missing a renewal window. Looking at your bio on that blue ham radio page I saw that your license expired while you were off fighting communism. After looking at all of your public service, accomplishments, and contributions to the hobby, I think it really would have been a shame if you had found a new hobby when you were required to jump through the re-licensing hoop.
      Very best regards, Tom Bruzan, AB9NZ, Mount Prospect, Illinois http://radiotelegrapher.wordpress.com/
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12854




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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2013, 04:53:09 PM »

By licenses being easy to get I was thinking in terms of no code test and the VE program making the testing much more available than it was when it meant travel to an FCC field office. I'm sure it was much more difficult and involved back when Kuby went through the process.

Kuby, thanks for your service and I'm glad you stuck with ham radio.

73, Bob
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N2EY
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Posts: 3880




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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 05:33:12 AM »

PB: Can you still ride a two wheel bike or roller skate?

I can.


Will vehicle drivers once licensed ever loose their touch in driving? NO! Vehicles sure have changed, have a few driving laws changed, YUP! But you are still liable to follow the laws even if it is not on your drivers exam!

Actually, in many if not all states, once a driver reaches a certain age, s/he HAS TO be retested every so many years to retain a driver's license. Even with a clean record, the retesting is mandatory.

Note too that if you let your driver's license expire long enough, you can't just renew it.

I think every US-licensed ham should be able to pass the tests for the license they hold. I know I can; I take a practice exam every so often just to be sure. If the FCC were to order every ham in the USA to pass all their exams again, it would be no problem at all for me. Nor should it be a problem for anyone else IMHO.

So if someone forgets to renew, I don't see what the problem is with having them retest to get the license back. If they really know ham radio, there should be no issue at all.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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N3DF
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Posts: 252




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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 12:33:09 PM »

Difficult for me to imagine anyone to whom amateur radio means anything at all "forgetting" to renew his or her license for a period of years. 
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Neil N3DF
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