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Author Topic: Flex 6700 vs Anan 100D  (Read 30945 times)
WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 05:24:21 PM »

Wondering if Apache is bringing any merchandise to Dayton to sell.  I kind of doubt it though.  I've got a brand new i5 idling on my shack desk just waiting to be plugged into either an ANAN-10 or ANAN-100.  It'll be interesting to see their display and be able to do a fair comparison with Flex.
Apache Labs has said that they will be at Dayton. But, they may or may not, be able to bring
any radios to sell. They said they planned to demo the radios there. But, could not say if they
would be allowed to bring anything to sell. If they did, I'd almost bet they would sell out the
first day!
james
WD5GWY
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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 997




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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2013, 02:44:35 AM »

And both radios have such lousy transmitter IMD specifications that in the real world would  making having such excellent receivers of waste of good technology in the real world.
Both manufacturers simply dont get it! They build receivers  that perform well yet put cheap 12 volt  poor IMD amplifiers in the box. Its plain technical stupidity.

Despite the admirable aims of the HPSDR group, they too are the leaders in producing lousy PA designs that causes excessive IMD or splatter. These days how hard is it really
too design a high voltage FET PA in place of a lousy  12 volt crap amplifier design that is no better than the average CB radio in IMD performance.

Everyone who buys and owns these radios will wax lyrically about the amazing receiver technology and say nothing about the stone age transmitter amplifier, that affects how all
other receiver perform in the real world regardless of price. The IMD performance is  slipping down a greasy slope to the abyss and yet the ARRL and others dont give a damn. The ARRL continues
too heap ton of praise on radios with lousy transmitters in their ARRL reviews. Its clear that people like the ARRL and the RSGB amongst others are becoming convenient marketing tools for companies
that produce poor transmitting equipment. These bodies are supposed to uphold technical standards and promote technical excellence rather than trying too promote cheap equipment that at the end of the day
is making the ham bands sound like the CB band that is full of splatter.

FLEXRADIO 0 Stars for a crap transmitter design
ANAN 0 Stars for another crap PA in   radio that should of  had a  world class PA.

What gets me is that most ham radio models now exceed the price of commercial marine, military and aeronautical HF equipment yet ham equipment could not even meet these basic ITU standards for commercial products.
We getting ripped off by the manufacturers  who are selling substandard equipment. Really they all need to get their cheap eye blinkers off and forget about receiver performance and employ real RF engineers who know how too design a proper PA with decent IMD performance. Hams need to  wake up and get a reality check and start demanding better transmitters performance, while we still carrying on about receiver performance numbers the manufacturers will definetly know that we a bunch of idiots when  we make no mention of the transmitter performance that will never let any ham realize  their  high performance receivers potential. A huge waste of money and you might as well buy a IC718 because you cant realize any more performance BECAUSE OF THE CRAP TRANSMITTERS LIKE THE FLEXRADIO AND ANAN.

Oh Another SDR radio blah blah blah, same crap transmitter from yesteryear!

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WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2013, 03:07:52 AM »

Just how do you know that either of these radios have poor IMD performance?
Have you tested either one or both? Since only the Anan radios are currently
available, do you have one? If so, post the results of your tests.
Simply saying that because they use 12 volt parts alone is not proof that their
transmitters are poor performers, IMD wise.
I'm beginning to think as others do, that you simply keep posting the same thing
with no proof that(outside of what you did post in the Amplifier section about the
RM Italy amp's) just because they are using 12 volt parts, that they are unable to
make them work properly and not emit excessive IMD products.
One statement used where I live is, "Put up, or shut up".
james
WD5GWY
   
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N0YXB
Member

Posts: 331




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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2013, 08:39:13 AM »

And both radios have such lousy transmitter IMD specifications that in the real world would  making having such excellent receivers of waste of good technology in the real world.
Both manufacturers simply dont get it! They build receivers  that perform well yet put cheap 12 volt  poor IMD amplifiers in the box. Its plain technical stupidity.


I want to like the Apache, but this is what I have been concerned about. While your posts about transmitter IMD annoy many, you are of course correct to be concerned.  I wish more were. 

Looks like I'll stay on my original course and purchase the QS1R and exciter.   
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WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2013, 09:07:59 AM »

And both radios have such lousy transmitter IMD specifications that in the real world would  making having such excellent receivers of waste of good technology in the real world.
Both manufacturers simply dont get it! They build receivers  that perform well yet put cheap 12 volt  poor IMD amplifiers in the box. Its plain technical stupidity.


I want to like the Apache, but this is what I have been concerned about. While your posts about transmitter IMD annoy many, you are of course correct to be concerned.  I wish more were. 

Looks like I'll stay on my original course and purchase the QS1R and exciter.   
  I don't really find his posts annoying, but, rather poorly stated and on the verge (at times) of being belligerent. And except in a very few instances, he does not substantiate his claims about IMD issues with different radios. Unless he is one of the few beta testers for Flex Radio, he has nothing to back up his claim concerning their latest radio's IMD performance other than the same,
tired old argument about 12 volt FET's  and PA designs.  I have even read a post where he said that 12 volt PA's could be designed to be very clean and done so inexpensively.
If that were true, then why has no company followed his advice? Maybe he works for one of the companies he keeps ranting about. Maybe, he has tried in his job, to get them to make the changes he says needs to be made and failed. BUT, all this is conjecture on my part and until he can actually back up his claims with FACTS and FIGURES ( which he did do in the Amplifier Forum concerning the RM Italy amps) from tests that HE has made, then he just appears to be another forum troll.
  I too am concerned with IMD and because of his statements concerning the RM Italy amps, specifically the HLA-150 and HLA-300(which he FINALLY did say he tested and offered his results) that is one reason I have never bought an HLA-300.
 But, to continually rail against something and not back it up with proof AND being willing to
identify one's self, (which he will not do) it is no different than me making such statements and using some other user name other than my callsign and name, then there is nothing to add credence to my statements. There would be no proof, such as a background in RF engineering,
that would demonstrate that I knew what I was talking about.
And that is the problem with Zinki. He gives no background, no way to add validity to his statements. He could just be a very bitter ex-employe of any one of a number of companies that he has made his statements against.
  I like reading his posts to a point. But, when all he can do, or will do, is post how everything is another crap CB amplifier design, then anything he might have said of substance has been lost.
james
WD5GWY

     
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K2GWK
Member

Posts: 534


WWW

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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2013, 09:36:32 AM »

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't find an IMD spec on the Anan 100D so unless he tested it himself, he really can't say anything about IMD one way or another. Sorry....... He is starting to sound like a skipping record.
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Guy
Lawn Guyland, New York

K2GWK Website
W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2013, 02:28:00 PM »

Blah blah blah....same ole same ole from Zenki except now it sounds like he wants us all to totally forget about  receive performance in the name of IMD. Seems Zenki would be satisfied with a crystal and a cat whisker just as long as his IMD was spectacular. As far as IMD, I wish the labs would give us more information than "worst case IMD" at full power.  A lot of folks use rigs at reduced power, either driving an amp or running some type of low power digital mode. It might be interesting to know where things shake out in real world applications.  Just sayin...
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
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SWL2002
Member

Posts: 374




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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2013, 02:42:19 PM »

If the Flex or the ANAN used 50 V FETs in the PA, Zenki would find something else to bitch about like the price.  Ham equipment is not sold in large volumes like the commercial stuff.  Instead of the Flex-6700 costing $7000 it would cost $12,000.

-robert
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WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2013, 02:47:52 PM »

If the Flex or the ANAN used 50 V FETs in the PA, Zenki would find something else to bitch about like the price.  Ham equipment is not sold in large volumes like the commercial stuff.  Instead of the Flex-6700 costing $7000 it would cost $12,000.

-robert
I have to agree about that statement completely.
james
WD5GWY
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WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 03:05:19 PM »

Blah blah blah....same ole same ole from Zenki except now it sounds like he wants us all to totally forget about  receive performance in the name of IMD. Seems Zenki would be satisfied with a crystal and a cat whisker just as long as his IMD was spectacular. As far as IMD, I wish the labs would give us more information than "worst case IMD" at full power.  A lot of folks use rigs at reduced power, either driving an amp or running some type of low power digital mode. It might be interesting to know where things shake out in real world applications.  Just sayin...
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
I think that giving us "worst case IMD" is a good thing. It does give us some yardstick to go by
when considering amplifiers etc.  Take a look at W8JI's website, he has some very interesting things to say about the methods the ARRL and others, use when testing IMD. The accepted use
of two tones makes sense, but, at the same time, the variances of the human voice do make
a difference in test results, and in real world results. My voice might be higher pitched than yours and yours could be much lower and those differences can effect IMD suppression in the same
transmitter or amplifier. W8JI says that a test that varies the tones between a selected high
point and low point would give a better indication of IMD generated in actual use.
Even Zenki has mentioned the same differences between using the two tone test and actual human voice effects on IMD products.  I know from some of the reading that I have done concerning IMD, that the use of two tones was to create a standard of measurement that can
be used between all types of transmitters and amplifiers. W8JI seems to be saying that his idea
could be implemented and give better, and possibly, more accurate results.
   I know that Zenki can be very frustrating at times with his caustic remarks, but, he does have some valid points. But, he rarely, ever, backs his points up with real statistics. And as I said earlier, he won't give any background, his name or anything like that, that would lend any level
of confidence to his statements. If he said I'm, Joe Smith and I'm an engineer with XYZ corp and have several patents in RF design etc. Then, I would be more inclined to agree with him.
But, when he jumps on products that he is almost certain not to own (Flex 6000 Series) then I have to question his statements.
   I will be very surprised if he comes back to this thread (if at all) and makes any positive, helpful comments on this subject. Much less, offers some background on himself and his qualifications to make those statements.
  Unlike W8JI, who is well known and respected in his field, we know nothing about Zenki other than he is a constant complainer.
james
WD5GWY
 
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W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2013, 03:40:11 PM »

Blah blah blah....same ole same ole from Zenki except now it sounds like he wants us all to totally forget about  receive performance in the name of IMD. Seems Zenki would be satisfied with a crystal and a cat whisker just as long as his IMD was spectacular. As far as IMD, I wish the labs would give us more information than "worst case IMD" at full power.  A lot of folks use rigs at reduced power, either driving an amp or running some type of low power digital mode. It might be interesting to know where things shake out in real world applications.  Just sayin...
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
I think that giving us "worst case IMD" is a good thing. It does give us some yardstick to go by
when considering amplifiers etc.  Take a look at W8JI's website, he has some very interesting things to say about the methods the ARRL and others, use when testing IMD. The accepted use
of two tones makes sense, but, at the same time, the variances of the human voice do make
a difference in test results, and in real world results. My voice might be higher pitched than yours and yours could be much lower and those differences can effect IMD suppression in the same
transmitter or amplifier. W8JI says that a test that varies the tones between a selected high
point and low point would give a better indication of IMD generated in actual use.
Even Zenki has mentioned the same differences between using the two tone test and actual human voice effects on IMD products.  I know from some of the reading that I have done concerning IMD, that the use of two tones was to create a standard of measurement that can
be used between all types of transmitters and amplifiers. W8JI seems to be saying that his idea
could be implemented and give better, and possibly, more accurate results.
   I know that Zenki can be very frustrating at times with his caustic remarks, but, he does have some valid points. But, he rarely, ever, backs his points up with real statistics. And as I said earlier, he won't give any background, his name or anything like that, that would lend any level
of confidence to his statements. If he said I'm, Joe Smith and I'm an engineer with XYZ corp and have several patents in RF design etc. Then, I would be more inclined to agree with him.
But, when he jumps on products that he is almost certain not to own (Flex 6000 Series) then I have to question his statements.
   I will be very surprised if he comes back to this thread (if at all) and makes any positive, helpful comments on this subject. Much less, offers some background on himself and his qualifications to make those statements.
  Unlike W8JI, who is well known and respected in his field, we know nothing about Zenki other than he is a constant complainer.
james
WD5GWY
 
I did not read the entire article on the HLA amps by W8JI but took the time to skim over the important parts. At one point he did find a drive level that produced an acceptable IMD if I recall. I didn't mean to imply it was bad thing to give us "worst case IMD"  but I think more information would be helpful like "half power IMD"  for instance. I would agree that a varying tone test would give us a better indicator of real world use. Not only with voice but with digital.  I mean how many different tones are there in a JT-65 or PSK-31 signal. How about SSTV?  Just saying, "OK I fired this rig up on 40 meters at full power and found the worst case IMD to be X" is not enough information in my opinion and I don't think it's wholly what you should judge the TX on anyway especially considering most ops will not be putting it in a worst case scenario that often. I will take the time, when I can find it, to read more on W8JI's site. Right now I'm planning and researching some new antennas!
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 03:42:27 PM by W4HIJ » Logged
WD5GWY
Member

Posts: 406




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2013, 06:06:48 PM »


I did not read the entire article on the HLA amps by W8JI but took the time to skim over the important parts. At one point he did find a drive level that produced an acceptable IMD if I recall. I didn't mean to imply it was bad thing to give us "worst case IMD"  but I think more information would be helpful like "half power IMD"  for instance. I would agree that a varying tone test would give us a better indicator of real world use. Not only with voice but with digital.  I mean how many different tones are there in a JT-65 or PSK-31 signal. How about SSTV?  Just saying, "OK I fired this rig up on 40 meters at full power and found the worst case IMD to be X" is not enough information in my opinion and I don't think it's wholly what you should judge the TX on anyway especially considering most ops will not be putting it in a worst case scenario that often. I will take the time, when I can find it, to read more on W8JI's site. Right now I'm planning and researching some new antennas!
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
IF people did drive an amp like the HLA 150 (like the one W8JI used in his tests) with lower drive
it would as he stated result in lower IMD products. If I remember correctly he said if output from the amp was kept to 90 watts or less, then results would be acceptable. The IMD products would still be there, but, much weaker and less noticeable to stations away from the main signal.
But, what some would respond by saying is, most users would drive the amp to full output.
For instance, my Flex 1500 (already noted to have poor IMD numbers on 40 meters, but, decent numbers on the rest of the HF bands, as tested by the ARRL) only puts out 5 watts max.  A lot of users would want to drive the amp with full output from the radio and that would drive it beyond
90 watts to something like 110 watts or so. At that point, problems might occur.
My point in the above statement, is, most, but not all Amateurs, would not drive an amp like the RM Italy at half power to avoid splatter. And for transceivers with problem numbers (even at 100 watts output) the same thing would happen. Most would tend to run it full out. Unless, they were driving an amp that did not require 100 watts to produce decent output. Otherwise, most people would be tempted to run it full bore.
I think it would be rare for someone to run a transmitter or amp at half power. Not that it does not happen, but, most would want to get all they can out of their equipment. ( listen to the 40 and 80 meter power houses sometimes.............full bore most of the time for the really strong stations)
There are some things that SDR developers can do in software to help reduce IMD on transmit. And as I understand it, the developers of the opensource software for the Anan radios are working on doing just that. And Flex Radio has mentioned on their reflectors that the same is being developed for the 6000 Series radios. So, there are ways to fix the problems.
  I am really leaning towards an Anan 100D or even the Anan 10 at some point in the not so distant future. Even the numbers that I have found on Apache Lab's website, seem to indicate
that the IMD numbers for their radios are pretty good. And with developers working on ways to reduce it even further, then that is a big step in the right direction.
Interesting discussion!!
james
WD5GWY
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KC9XG
Member

Posts: 19




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 08:13:43 AM »

Just got the Apache Labs 100D SDR to replace my ANAN-10.  Works great.  Using G5RV for RX1 and 130 meter horizontal loop for RX2.   Have left speaker on RX1, and right speaker on RX2.   When signal fades on one antenna, it picks up the other one.  You can hear the signal moving from left to right etc.  Fascinating.

The Hermes/Angelia boards can put out a maximum of 600mw, but the Apache Lab ANAN-100 and ANAN-100d get 100 watts out with only 20mw or so of drive.  No clue what the IMD looks like though.

Bill KC9XG
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NK2F
Member

Posts: 35




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 09:18:17 AM »


I know that Zenki can be very frustrating at times with his caustic remarks, but, he does have some valid points. But, he rarely, ever, backs his points up with real statistics. And as I said earlier, he won't give any background, his name or anything like that, that would lend any level
of confidence to his statements. If he said I'm, Joe Smith and I'm an engineer with XYZ corp and have several patents in RF design etc. Then, I would be more inclined to agree with him.
But, when he jumps on products that he is almost certain not to own (Flex 6000 Series) then I have to question his statements.
   I will be very surprised if he comes back to this thread (if at all) and makes any positive, helpful comments on this subject. Much less, offers some background on himself and his qualifications to make those statements.
  Unlike W8JI, who is well known and respected in his field, we know nothing about Zenki other than he is a constant complainer.
james
WD5GWY
 

Best practices are best practices regardless of who is quoting them. Even if Zenki were to reveal his identity there will be plenty of challengers who will ignore his/her credentials and experience and claim they know better, based on their personal experience with bad practices. I have seen this first hand, including with posters in this very thread. IMHO, there is no need for Zenki to reveal his/her true identity.

I am not a PA expert and if I were to look for a design I won't count on the thoughts of this or that person in this forum; instead will hit the library and Amazon for solid sources.
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W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2013, 10:20:43 AM »


I did not read the entire article on the HLA amps by W8JI but took the time to skim over the important parts. At one point he did find a drive level that produced an acceptable IMD if I recall. I didn't mean to imply it was bad thing to give us "worst case IMD"  but I think more information would be helpful like "half power IMD"  for instance. I would agree that a varying tone test would give us a better indicator of real world use. Not only with voice but with digital.  I mean how many different tones are there in a JT-65 or PSK-31 signal. How about SSTV?  Just saying, "OK I fired this rig up on 40 meters at full power and found the worst case IMD to be X" is not enough information in my opinion and I don't think it's wholly what you should judge the TX on anyway especially considering most ops will not be putting it in a worst case scenario that often. I will take the time, when I can find it, to read more on W8JI's site. Right now I'm planning and researching some new antennas!
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
IF people did drive an amp like the HLA 150 (like the one W8JI used in his tests) with lower drive
it would as he stated result in lower IMD products. If I remember correctly he said if output from the amp was kept to 90 watts or less, then results would be acceptable. The IMD products would still be there, but, much weaker and less noticeable to stations away from the main signal.
But, what some would respond by saying is, most users would drive the amp to full output.
For instance, my Flex 1500 (already noted to have poor IMD numbers on 40 meters, but, decent numbers on the rest of the HF bands, as tested by the ARRL) only puts out 5 watts max.  A lot of users would want to drive the amp with full output from the radio and that would drive it beyond
90 watts to something like 110 watts or so. At that point, problems might occur.
My point in the above statement, is, most, but not all Amateurs, would not drive an amp like the RM Italy at half power to avoid splatter. And for transceivers with problem numbers (even at 100 watts output) the same thing would happen. Most would tend to run it full out. Unless, they were driving an amp that did not require 100 watts to produce decent output. Otherwise, most people would be tempted to run it full bore.
I think it would be rare for someone to run a transmitter or amp at half power. Not that it does not happen, but, most would want to get all they can out of their equipment. ( listen to the 40 and 80 meter power houses sometimes.............full bore most of the time for the really strong stations)
There are some things that SDR developers can do in software to help reduce IMD on transmit. And as I understand it, the developers of the opensource software for the Anan radios are working on doing just that. And Flex Radio has mentioned on their reflectors that the same is being developed for the 6000 Series radios. So, there are ways to fix the problems.
  I am really leaning towards an Anan 100D or even the Anan 10 at some point in the not so distant future. Even the numbers that I have found on Apache Lab's website, seem to indicate
that the IMD numbers for their radios are pretty good. And with developers working on ways to reduce it even further, then that is a big step in the right direction.
Interesting discussion!!
james
WD5GWY

James,
You and I have had a similar discussion to this before. I'll have to concede that a lot of hams will run everything at full output unless conditions such as driving an amp or running digital modes force them not to do so and there are a lot out there who run way too much power on digital and are going to splatter up the bands anyway. However, I still think it's wrong to judge a rig solely on IMD numbers or it's suitability for driving an amplifier based on the worst case of those numbers.  I'd wager there are  a lot of rigs in the market place right now that won't cut the mustard if judging solely by such standards. From what I've read Zenki seems to want to indict every last 12 volt amplifier design out there and that seems pretty outlandish to me. In case he hasn't noticed, 13.8 volts is pretty much the standard for running a modern day transceiver.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
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