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Author Topic: Here We Go Again- No Panafall on New Flex 6000 series  (Read 16016 times)
W6UV
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Posts: 538




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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2013, 09:12:05 AM »

So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.) so I have a chance to play with these rigs before buying. As things stand now, I either have to know someone with one of these rigs, or see them at a convention. When these vendors show up at a convention at all (Ten-Tec has never exhibited at the west coast conventions that I can recall), they usually don't have their rigs connected to a real antenna, which is really limiting.
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W6UV
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Posts: 538




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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 09:22:48 AM »

Thank you. I have new respect for eham moderation. Please keep eham moderation fair and consistent. eham users will have a much better experience.

Yes, they did resurrect this thread, but I also noticed that they silently deleted several posts in the "FlexRadio Systems Flex-6700 SmartSDR Preview Editions Arriving" thread.
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K9IUQ
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Posts: 1832




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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 09:34:46 AM »

I also noticed that they silently deleted several posts in the "FlexRadio Systems Flex-6700 SmartSDR Preview Editions Arriving" thread.

I think most of those posts deserved deletion. And not quite silently as N2MG sent me a heads up email on the deletions.

Stan K9IUQ
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K9IUQ
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Posts: 1832




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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2013, 09:40:32 AM »

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.)

Ten-Tec sold thru dealers at one time many years ago. It did not work too well for them as the Jap radios looked much better when compared to the Ten-Tec radios. Plus the Jap radios were much cheaper.  Wink

I want to see a Company like Anan have a USA Distributor and USA warranty network. Until they do they will never be truly competitive in the USA Ham market.

Stan K9IUQ
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SWL2002
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Posts: 288




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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2013, 09:47:24 AM »

I understand what you are saying, but if they have all that goverment work and these new radios are an offshoot of it how can there have been such a large miss and how could something so simple and basic as a waterfall display be missing still?

It's not adding up.

EXACTY!  I keep hearing the nonsense about the 6000 series being an offshoot of their government projects.  But if you look at what Flex has delivered for the government it is a bunch of old QSD style receivers in a backplane, not a DDC based receiver.   Had this been an offshoot of their other projects, they would have had a base to work from as far as the hardware, firmware, and software and it would have not run late by more than two years and still counting.
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2013, 09:56:56 AM »

EXACTY!  I keep hearing the nonsense about the 6000 series being an offshoot of their government projects.  But if you look at what Flex has delivered for the government it is a bunch of old QSD style receivers in a backplane, not a DDC based receiver.   

There is a website that lists all government Contracts and how much $$ they are worth. I researched this late last year and found Flexradio has very little Government contracts. Flex also uses another business name for their commercial stuff. I do not recall that name but used it also for searching the Government contracts. If anyone has proof of Flexradio actually doing Government work please post it here. I found very little, but everyone knows I am biased..  Cheesy Cheesy

If one knows how dig around on the net I am sure more info on Flexradio Government projects can be found.

Stan K9IUQ
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W4HIJ
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Posts: 367




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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2013, 12:05:48 PM »

So I think the major US players will be around for us a while....

One thing I would like to see is Elecraft, Flex, and Ten-Tec selling via dealers (HRO, AES, etc.) so I have a chance to play with these rigs before buying. As things stand now, I either have to know someone with one of these rigs, or see them at a convention. When these vendors show up at a convention at all (Ten-Tec has never exhibited at the west coast conventions that I can recall), they usually don't have their rigs connected to a real antenna, which is really limiting.
Ten Tec used to sell radios at HRO when I worked there. I don't recall us ever having one on display though. Our showroom had a row of large desk that covered one wall of the store with every imaginable Japanese radio model you could think off displayed and there was a bank of switches where they could be hooked up to the A3-S on the roof. I had the opportunity to operate a lot of the latest and greatest and it's where I ended up getting my rather low opinion of the low to mid end Japanese radio RX performance. We only sold the Ten Tecs to people who came in specifically looking for them. There was one single shelf of the warehouse space devoted to them and we would pull them out and carry them to the customer in the showroom. Most would buy them sight unseen without even opening the carton before they left the store. It was a question of folks knowing exactly what they wanted before hand.  Not like someone coming in to compare a Kenwood against a Yaesu or an Icom. If HRO had Flex or Elecraft radios out side by side to compare with the "big three", they would not sell very many Japanese radios! Not based on RX performance anyway.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 12:12:05 PM by W4HIJ » Logged
K9IUQ
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Posts: 1832




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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2013, 12:25:04 PM »

If HRO had Flex or Elecraft radios out side by side to compare with the "big three", they would not sell very many Japanese radios! Not based on RX performance anyway.

Nope. I compared my Flexradio 5K against a TS-590s in real world everyday operating side by side and the Flexradio did not out perform the Kenwood RX. In addition the Kenwood ran circles around the 5K in real world operation on the CW mode, which led me to believe only SSB ops should consider a Flexradio.

Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( Wink Cheesy ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

The Flexradio should be better in Contesting because it has better specs in crowded conditions. However because of the "Focus" problem no serious Contester would ever consider a Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 12:39:06 PM by K9IUQ » Logged
W6UV
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Posts: 538




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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 09:09:36 AM »

Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( Wink Cheesy ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

My FTdx-5000 certainly outperforms the Flex-5000 I previously owned. On CW it's no comparison; the FTdx-5000 is bullet-proof on CW.

And if I want panafall, all I need to do is spend $250 on an LP-PAN2, connect it to the IF output of the FTdx-5000, and I get the exact same panafall that Flex owners do.
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W4HIJ
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Posts: 367




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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 05:09:10 PM »

Considering that today there are many radios better than the TS-590s I would venture to guess the Flexradio 5K would not do any better against them. There are many Flex owners and Ex-Flex owners ( Wink Cheesy ) on this forum that will say the same thing. In Real World ham operation the only real advantage the Flexradios have is the Panafall..

My FTdx-5000 certainly outperforms the Flex-5000 I previously owned. On CW it's no comparison; the FTdx-5000 is bullet-proof on CW.

And if I want panafall, all I need to do is spend $250 on an LP-PAN2, connect it to the IF output of the FTdx-5000, and I get the exact same panafall that Flex owners do.
I would hope it would since believe it cost approximately twice what the 5K does. Wonder how it fare against one of the Flex 6000 series? Not saying which would win, I have no idea, just that price wise it would be a more appropriate comparison. My 5K beat my Kenwood TS-2000X easily.  I also know that in my real world experience my 1500 RX beats many radios I've owned and tried that are near or above it in price. That list would include the Kenwood 440, 450 and 480 radios, the Yaesu 450 and 897 and the Icom IC-706MKIIG.  If you are going to fairly compare radios  they need to be somewhat in the same price class. Of course, there's the rub, you have to be fair which doesn't suit many posters here.
Michael, W4HIJ
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WD5GWY
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Posts: 397




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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2013, 06:10:35 PM »

Price alone is not always an indication of quality or performance.
Also, different technologies and designs are involved as well.
I've compared my Flex 1500 against different radios I have here
and it is very close in performance (receiver) to radios like a
Yaesu FT-1000MP MKV(with stock filters and analog dSP)
 ,TenTec Jupiter(amazing radio for it's price) and even a Kenwood
TS-480SAT. I have even compared it to a Kenwood TS-830s.
Filtering with the 1500 using PowerSDR(where the "filters" actually
reside) is really good. Sensitivity is darn good too. But, it does not
quite outshine all of the radios I mentioned. The FT-1000MP MKV and
the Jupiter both are slightly better(sensitive) compared to the 1500.
One thing that I've seen mentioned elsewhere is the bandscope helps
find stations to work. While Point and Click tuning is great, a weak signal
sometimes will not show clearly in PowerSDR. But, you can tune across the
band and still hear it. It just won't really show on the bandscope. So, you are
essentially doing what we've been doing with knob radios. Tuning around looking
for stations! (still my favorite way to look for stations to work!)
   Of all the radios I own, the MKV is still my favorite. I can listen to it for hours at
at time and not get tired from listening to it. I also have a couple of ICOM radios
( 706MKIIG & IC-7000) for mobile use. Both of those radios, while working quite
well, are really hard to listen to for any great length of time.
james
WD5GWY
 
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WD5GWY
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Posts: 397




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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 07:11:21 AM »

Did PowerSDR have a waterfall display with it's first version?
JAMES
WD5GWY
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K5TED
Member

Posts: 731




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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 11:07:21 AM »

A more accurate thread title would be "No Panafall On SmartSDR Preview Edition".

Come to think of it, of the 6 HF transcievers I own, only one uses a software console featuring a waterfall.

In fact, most transcievers do not have an integrated waterfall.

We know of at least one ham here who owns a fine, top shelf, Yaesu rig which does not come with a stock waterfall.

Yet, all of these radios may be operated easily with no waterfall.

I don't always use the waterfall on PowerSDR. Sometimes I minimize PowerSDR and use HRD and a Griffin knob. Sometimes I just use HRD and the touchscreen.

It's a great function, but is not critical to the operation of the radio. All things considered, the waterfall is a nice function, but it doesn't represent the radio as a whole, nor does it enhance selectivity, sensitivity, or any other technical spec.

Considering the ease with which one might implement an external waterfall display temporarily while Flex finalizes the SmartSDR software, it seems this is much ado about very little of substance.

When the waterfall function is eventually added, what will be the next Flexradio grousing point?
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NI0Z
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Posts: 566


WWW

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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 11:14:33 AM »

You know, my own two cents is that we have now beat this to near death.  

Sure it was fun to pick at people having spent a few grand on deposits for un-released radios and then seeing we were apparently right to do so with how incomplete they ended up being as they started rolling them out, but its getting old now, at least for me anyways.  

And really in the end, for at least me, it was more about poking fun then anything serious.

Seriously, if you don't think you had fun poking coming at you for spending money and defending a not yet for sale radio that nobody had really used or seen, I can't help you.  You have to figure that one out on your own.

More reports are coming out from various hams as the radios ship and it sounds like more and more of the radios are functioning each day so I think we will eventually get someone non biased to provide the real skinny on them.

Oh, one more poke, lol, even WebSDR has a waterfall display!  

Just joking!

Flexers, I am retired from Flex fun poking, you all have mostly been good sports.  Maybe you'll even get the last laugh!  

Enjoy the new radios which you certainly have earned [the good and the bad] for being on the pre-order list and I for one will continue watching to see how you are doing with them.

73!
NI0Z
Mark

« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:34:52 AM by NI0Z » Logged

W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 01:19:17 PM »

Price alone is not always an indication of quality or performance.
Also, different technologies and designs are involved as well.
I've compared my Flex 1500 against different radios I have here
and it is very close in performance (receiver) to radios like a
Yaesu FT-1000MP MKV(with stock filters and analog dSP)
 ,TenTec Jupiter(amazing radio for it's price) and even a Kenwood
TS-480SAT. I have even compared it to a Kenwood TS-830s.
Filtering with the 1500 using PowerSDR(where the "filters" actually
reside) is really good. Sensitivity is darn good too. But, it does not
quite outshine all of the radios I mentioned. The FT-1000MP MKV and
the Jupiter both are slightly better(sensitive) compared to the 1500.
One thing that I've seen mentioned elsewhere is the bandscope helps
find stations to work. While Point and Click tuning is great, a weak signal
sometimes will not show clearly in PowerSDR. But, you can tune across the
band and still hear it. It just won't really show on the bandscope. So, you are
essentially doing what we've been doing with knob radios. Tuning around looking
for stations! (still my favorite way to look for stations to work!)
   Of all the radios I own, the MKV is still my favorite. I can listen to it for hours at
at time and not get tired from listening to it. I also have a couple of ICOM radios
( 706MKIIG & IC-7000) for mobile use. Both of those radios, while working quite
well, are really hard to listen to for any great length of time.
james
WD5GWY
 
One thing I put a big premium on  is "listening fatigue".  Every radio I listed in my last post with the exception of the TS-2000X I owned was uncomfortable to listen too after about an hour. I had developed a habit of operating in forty five minute shifts with  a break of fifteen to thirty minutes in between.  My 5K never gave me any fatigue issues when I had it and neither does my 1500. It's a joy to listen too and I've caught myself letting the hours sneak right past me while working contest. That never happened when using the lower end Japanese radios I've owned. My main point about the Japanese radios has always been that in order to get a decent and comfortable RX from them, you have to go up into their high end radios. You can't  spend less than couple of thousand on anything from "the big three" and expect to get anything more than a marginal RX. That's what makes radios like the Flex 1500 and the Elecraft KX-3 such amazing values.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
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