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Author Topic: Time to dump the phonetics  (Read 17210 times)
W1JKA
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Posts: 1714




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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2013, 02:24:49 PM »

Re:KD0RDQ

In license region 4 it would be X space IIII then bonum amicum all in Charlie Whiskey.

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KE3WD
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Posts: 5689




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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2013, 02:43:13 PM »

Even the US military got rid of it...

That is not a true statement. 


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G3RZP
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Posts: 4619




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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 12:22:23 AM »

The standard phonetic alphabet was designed for good signal to noise but strong accents. Many of the words are low energy words - 'sierra' for example. Longer words, as in the older 'America', 'Baltimore' 'Canada' etc  have the advantage of syllabic redundancy: the disadvantage is that people don't necessarily recognise them, but they are far better under very weak signal conditions - as you would expect from communications theory. In digital comms, we add check sums and even forward error correction (FEC), and longer phonetic words are the analogue equivalent.

However, one pre WW2 alphabet used Xanthippe  for X! OK if you happen know that Xanthippe was the wife of Socrates......
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N6PG
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Posts: 55




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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 03:27:34 AM »

The standard phonetic alphabet was designed for good signal to noise but strong accents. Many of the words are low energy words - 'sierra' for example. Longer words, as in the older 'America', 'Baltimore' 'Canada' etc  have the advantage of syllabic redundancy: the disadvantage is that people don't necessarily recognise them, but they are far better under very weak signal conditions - as you would expect from communications theory. In digital comms, we add check sums and even forward error correction (FEC), and longer phonetic words are the analogue equivalent.

However, one pre WW2 alphabet used Xanthippe  for X! OK if you happen know that Xanthippe was the wife of Socrates......

Spot on! The people that are 100% defending the current phonetics probably don't spend time on HF voice with a call containing soft letters. I've had a very difficult time with my suffix "Papa Golf" and many times just switch to "Potugal Germany." 

I know the phonetic alphabet, I use it at work... But... I understand when people have a reason deviate.
Scott N6PG
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AC4RD
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Posts: 1235




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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2013, 05:04:57 AM »

... one pre WW2 alphabet used Xanthippe  for X! OK if you happen know that Xanthippe was the wife of Socrates......

The gossip around the Parthenon was that Xanthippe had her very own "Socratic method," if you know what I mean.  [wink wink nudge nudge]
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W1JKA
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Posts: 1714




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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2013, 05:20:45 AM »

At least please consider that the standard phonetic alphabet was developed with mostly two syllable words (we all know the few three syllable words).The main intent was is to make it relatively easy to understand the word if any one of the syllables were missed due to various conditions.Drop any one syllable from the standard alphabet and you will most likely figure out the word,now try this with the cutesy or numerous other made up words starting with the same letter and the word may be questionable.
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WB0KSL
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Posts: 94




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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2013, 06:41:41 AM »

G3RZP is quite correct regarding the varying accents issue.  Note that the pronunciation of the standard "NATO" phonetic alphabet, in some instances, varies considerably from what you might consider the "normal" pronunciation of the word.  The number five (5) is a perfect example.  It is to be pronounced as "fife".  Admittedly, it has been a long time since I heard that pronunciation.  There are similar, somewhat strange, examples among the letters.  Oscar and Victor come to mind.

73 de WB0KSL, John
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6034




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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2013, 07:23:07 AM »

At least please consider that the standard phonetic alphabet was developed with mostly two syllable words (we all know the few three syllable words).The main intent was is to make it relatively easy to understand the word if any one of the syllables were missed due to various conditions.Drop any one syllable from the standard alphabet and you will most likely figure out the word,now try this with the cutesy or numerous other made up words starting with the same letter and the word may be questionable.

True enough--but that still makes the supposition that the user KNOWS the standard alphabet.  If he/she doesn't, it's still a tossup as to understanding the phonetic.
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TANAKASAN
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Posts: 933




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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2013, 07:32:53 AM »

To: WB0KSL

"The number five (5) is a perfect example.  It is to be pronounced as "fife"."

Interesting because I have heard from different sources that (5) is supposed to be pronounced 'fiver' and (9) is supposed to be pronounced as 'niner'. This is to eliminate any confusion with the command FIRE! *** and the German word for no.

Tanakasan

*** Certain Navies use the command 'SHOOT' which eliminates this problem.
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KE3WD
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Posts: 5689




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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2013, 08:08:31 AM »

Please try to consider the fact that the currently *recommended* phonetics for use on the ham bands is just that, a "recommendation". 

It is not a law. 

It is not a regulation. 

And, yes, in DX and Worldwide Contesting, it is often the case that we use our own collectively derived teminologies that often work much better.  Keyword here is, "collectively derived". 

"Papa Sugar" instead of "Papa Sierra" etc. 

The fact is that we all speak *living languages* -- not classical Latin or Greek -- and that means that the language can, will and does get changed over time. 

That said, I'm still a proponent of all hams learning the proper phonetics, if for no other reason than the only way to be able to intelligently break a "rule" is to know the rule as it existed in the first place. 

But I don't need no steenking Band Police. 


73
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WB0KSL
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Posts: 94




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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2013, 08:58:03 AM »

TANAKASAN,

You are correct as to the number nine (9), it is pronounced nine-er.  Five (5) is to be pronounced "fife".  I bet I haven't heard more than a handful of OPs pronounce it that way, though :-)
I do remember very well that a request for re-transmission of something was to be "say again", NEVER "repeat".  To an artillery battery, "repeat" meant that they were on target, go ahead and fire again, same coordinates.  Not concepts you want to be confused over :-)
I still say "say again" to this day, and my wife gets a bit embarrassed and irritated with me in public.  Aviation also uses "say again".  Probably a spill over from the military usage.

73 de WB0KSL, John
 
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K7KBN
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Posts: 2805




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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2013, 09:04:13 AM »

D = W ("Double U")

P = Pneumonia (or pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanokoniosis)

X = Xylophone (or Xanthippe, as suggested earlier)

E = Eisenhower
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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
N6PG
Member

Posts: 55




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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2013, 09:35:35 AM »

To: WB0KSL

"The number five (5) is a perfect example.  It is to be pronounced as "fife"."

Interesting because I have heard from different sources that (5) is supposed to be pronounced 'fiver' and (9) is supposed to be pronounced as 'niner'. This is to eliminate any confusion with the command FIRE! *** and the German word for no.

Tanakasan

*** Certain Navies use the command 'SHOOT' which eliminates this problem.

5=fife
3=tree
There are some interesting ones...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

Regards,
Scott N6PG
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AC2EU
Member

Posts: 403


WWW

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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2013, 10:37:51 AM »

Just because you read it on the internet...

There is nothing wrong with phonetics, except that many Hams don't take the half and hour to learn it.
Phonetics is often critical when ordering alpha numeric part numbers over the phone or relaying other critical information.

Now everybody who says "papa sugar", "apple baker" and the like, please go here and learn the proper words.

http://virtualskies.arc.nasa.gov/communication/2.html

Thanks!
73 de AC2EU (alpha charlie too echo uniform)  Grin
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W5FYI
Member

Posts: 1046




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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2013, 10:53:07 AM »

Here's the radio fonetic alfabet:

A Alfa
B Bravo
C Charlie
D Delta
E Echo
F Foxtrot
G Golf
H Hotel
I India
J Juliet
K Kilo
L Lima
M Mike
N November
O Oscar
P Papa
Q Quebeck
R Romeo
S Sierra
T Tango
U Uniform
V Victor
W Whiskey
X X-Ray
Y Yankee
Z Zulu

Got it? Good!

W5FYI (Double-you Five Fox-Yolk-Ida)


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