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Author Topic: TIRED OF SECOND RATE TREATMENT QRPERS GET.  (Read 20396 times)
K8AXW
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Posts: 3827




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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2013, 09:28:05 AM »

Quote
Truly I cannot believe some of you all are critical of the mans antenna. WTF is he supposed to feed? a Dummy load? Should he just route his signal into a ground rod? 
His antenna is none of YOUR GD business!!

Quote
Seriously, get a life if thats the best you can contribute to this forum and get it elsewhere!

EEB: Obviously, you're distraught.  So far this has been a reasonable discussion, basically about differences of opinion revolving around QRP operation with a wire antenna or with a gain antenna like a beam. I'm really sorry you missed that point. There really isn't any need to get emotional.

4B:  I'm extremely impressed by your skill and patience!  Especially with your QRPp work and operation with the wire antennas. 

I stopped using my 4w transceiver and Yagi because I (personally) felt no accomplishment when making European contacts.  As I noted, if I could hear them, then I was able to work them....... most of the time.

What I never had sense (ambition?) enough to do was do buy or build a transceiver that put out less than a watt to feed my Yagi.  With feedline loss vs. antenna gain, then I would be using 5w or less with the antenna improvement that some are talking about here.

Anyone for changing the rules for QRP operation??  Power output or ERP?Huh







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N9AOP
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2013, 11:06:28 AM »

Question-
I don't have a 4 or 5 band quad at 60 feet, only a TFD.  If I run my 5 watts through an ALPHA to obtain the same ERP, would I still be QRP?
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AA9G
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Posts: 87




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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2013, 11:40:29 AM »

This 'discussion' became unreasonable the moment some pathetic lamer decided they had nothing better to do then go poking around into what antenna the OP uses and then post that info here, followed by yet another loser who felt compelled to give us a homesnap link of said property.
Truly it makes me want to move and then renew with a PO Box address.
 I went hunting for a definition of QRP...I've YET to come across anything other than it's 5 watts or less power at the transmitter output and in fact I've come across a presentation on (I think) the New Jersey Club site that makes it pretty clear that not only are directive antennas ok, they are highly desirable. (gasp!)

No I'm not distraught, I'm angry, attacking his antenna (which looks pretty homebrew to me, makes me wonder if the attack dogs aren't just jealous cause they can't make one) and posting that crap was the height of petty lameness and gross stupidity.
And it's ECHO ECHO VICTOR.  Grin
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Ex KC9EEV.
NU4B
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Posts: 2220




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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »

Question-
I don't have a 4 or 5 band quad at 60 feet, only a TFD.  If I run my 5 watts through an ALPHA to obtain the same ERP, would I still be QRP?

Not by any generally accepted definition of QRP.
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W1JKA
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Posts: 1658




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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2013, 01:53:46 PM »

Perhaps any further discussion would be more appropriate in the REPEATERS forum.
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NU4B
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Posts: 2220




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« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2013, 03:38:50 PM »

Quote
Truly I cannot believe some of you all are critical of the mans antenna. WTF is he supposed to feed? a Dummy load? Should he just route his signal into a ground rod?  
His antenna is none of YOUR GD business!!

Quote
Seriously, get a life if thats the best you can contribute to this forum and get it elsewhere!

EEB: Obviously, you're distraught.  So far this has been a reasonable discussion, basically about differences of opinion revolving around QRP operation with a wire antenna or with a gain antenna like a beam. I'm really sorry you missed that point. There really isn't any need to get emotional.

4B:  I'm extremely impressed by your skill and patience!  Especially with your QRPp work and operation with the wire antennas.  

I stopped using my 4w transceiver and Yagi because I (personally) felt no accomplishment when making European contacts.  As I noted, if I could hear them, then I was able to work them....... most of the time.

What I never had sense (ambition?) enough to do was do buy or build a transceiver that put out less than a watt to feed my Yagi.  With feedline loss vs. antenna gain, then I would be using 5w or less with the antenna improvement that some are talking about here.

Anyone for changing the rules for QRP operation??  Power output or ERP?Huh







I would fall into the power output category, obviously.  Grin

  I noticed you indicated it was so commonplace to QSO EU running 4 watts to a yagi its almost boring. (And it is commonplace from the east coast.) It seems to me that you are confirming the underlying concept behind the QRP movement. A concept that is found in our own FCC rules and regs. That, of course, is to use the minimum power needed to make and complete the contact.

  While many of us are dedicated QRPers (running 5 watts and under), the majority of hams out there are not. In fact many, if not most, would use the maximum power available. And that maximum power could be a 100 watt transmitter - so I'm not necessarily talking about amps.  (From a DX'ing standpoint the majority of the time DX'ers are not using maximum power to initiate and complete the contact, they are using this power to outgun the next guy calling, who is trying to outgun the next guy, who is trying to outgun everybody else... resulting in a vicious circle of increasing power only limited by the power limitation of the license (at least hopefully). And the result of that is a huge waste of energy, an inefficient use of band space, unneeded interference, etc... and I haven't got to RF exposure yet.  Grin)

 And while that are many exciting and rewarding QRP activities like building QRP kits, designing QRP rigs, hiking/backpacking, milliwatting, improving antenna systems, building solar powered stations, and on and on and on, what is it we want to convey to the rest of the amateur community?
I don't think that its necessarily some strict definition of power output or ERP or antenna limitations. I think its the idea that for any given station (including antennas) there's a good chance that cutting the power out would result in just about as many successful QSO's as using the max power available. That may be going from 1500 watts to 750 watts, or 1000 watts to 500 watts, or 100 watts to 50 watts, etc.. Its about the concept that increased power out is not a good substitute for good operating practices. Its about a good, efficient antenna system, whether a dipole or yagi or other antenna, is a good substitute for increased transmitter power output. Can we show that non QRP ham running 100 watts to a standard 3 element tribander that 50 watts will work just as well in most cases?
It seems to me transmitter power out is an easier concept to grasp and measure than the ERP off the antenna.

I exchanged a couple posts with Chuck, NI0C,  (who by the way is a heck of a nice guy) about a couple contacts he had with T32C on 80 meters. He made his first QSO running high power, then was really happy about making an 80 meter 5 watt QSO with them. I pointed out (jokingly actually) that he should have started with 5 watts, then go to the higher power if 5 watts wasn't successful.  (For those of you not familiar with the T32C operation, the expedition lasted for quite a while and they made a couple hundred thousand QSOs so there was plenty of dead time to dupe a QSO with lower power). I think this was a new country for him on 80. Now I'm not saying 5 watts was the right power out to ensure a contact, but we (the ham community as a whole) have come to believe higher power (or the highest power available) is better. And that is not the case for a variety of reasons, many which I listed above.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 03:49:21 PM by NU4B » Logged
K8AXW
Member

Posts: 3827




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« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2013, 05:40:35 PM »

4B:  You've given me a great deal to digest OM.  Considering your expertise with QRP operation which also seems to be the majority opinion on this forum, perhaps it's time I reevaluate my opinion(s). 

I'll get back on this in the morning.

EEV.... ECHO ECHO VICTOR... I apologize for the finger slip on the keyboard.  It seems you're having an identity crisis of some sort... since your present call is W5DCG. 

As for being "angry" over this back and forth?  you gotta be kiddin me!  Who'n the hell are you to be angry?  Nobody rattled your cage!  I didn't detect any hostility; just good natured needling toward WG5G besides I doubt if he needs anyone to defend him.  You really should get a grip OM.  Ssshhheeechh!

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K8AXW
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Posts: 3827




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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2013, 09:35:19 AM »

NU4B:  OK, I've given this whole discussion a GREAT deal of thought last night and again this morning.

I've concluded that my narrow minded opinions need reevaluating.  I seem to have lost sight of the fact that low power is low power and the antenna is whatever you can hang on to the transmitter. 

One comment from someone about running the QRP transmitter into a dummy load or ground rod suddenly made sense to me. 

I seemed to be under the impression that the purpose of QRP was to do what could be done with 5w or less to a wet noodle. 

So, looks like it's time to dust off the DSW-20-II and hang it back on the Yagi and feel better about the results.

I appreciate all the patient comments posted here.  For the most part.  At any rate, message received.

73

Al - K8AXW
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NU4B
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Posts: 2220




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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2013, 10:49:20 AM »

NU4B:  OK, I've given this whole discussion a GREAT deal of thought last night and again this morning.

I've concluded that my narrow minded opinions need reevaluating.  I seem to have lost sight of the fact that low power is low power and the antenna is whatever you can hang on to the transmitter. 

One comment from someone about running the QRP transmitter into a dummy load or ground rod suddenly made sense to me. 

I seemed to be under the impression that the purpose of QRP was to do what could be done with 5w or less to a wet noodle. 

So, looks like it's time to dust off the DSW-20-II and hang it back on the Yagi and feel better about the results.

I appreciate all the patient comments posted here.  For the most part.  At any rate, message received.

73

Al - K8AXW

Ah, the DSW-20-II, I built one of those. A fine rig. I sold mine and wish I hadn't. I know I can't hold on to all my rigs, but sometimes I hate when I sell them. Fortunately QRP rigs are fairly small these days so they don't take up a lot of space.  Grin

There's nothing wrong with a wet noodle, but sometimes you need more. Don't add power, crank up that yagi and let it do the work.  Grin Grin Grin Grin

Good luck and I hope you have many fine QRP QSOs.
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K8AXW
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2013, 09:17:38 PM »

4B:  The DSW-20-II is indeed a fine little rig....but I hate the indented encoder.  Don't suppose you know of any mods to replace the indented encoder with a smooth tuning one???

While building my TAK-40 (ARRLHBC I) I built an encoder then put a smooth commercial unit on.  I mention this because I learned through this process that there are many kinds of encoders and unless you know what you're doing, it ain't gonna work!
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NU4B
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2013, 04:37:16 AM »

4B:  The DSW-20-II is indeed a fine little rig....but I hate the indented encoder.  Don't suppose you know of any mods to replace the indented encoder with a smooth tuning one???

While building my TAK-40 (ARRLHBC I) I built an encoder then put a smooth commercial unit on.  I mention this because I learned through this process that there are many kinds of encoders and unless you know what you're doing, it ain't gonna work!

No, I don't know of any mods. It was a few years back. Have you checked to see if there is a Yahoo user's group? If they do, that would be the first place to start looking. Or maybe start a new topic in this forum?

73, Larry NU4B
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W4KVW
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Posts: 488




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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2013, 11:01:13 AM »

DAN,I'm NOT sure they heard you but I'd suggest turning than MONSTER Quad towards them & turning ON the AMPLIFIER (QRO) so you can BUST that HUGE pileup.That is them that I hear so many calling I think because they keep saying,"CQ CQ CQ This is ..... calling CQ & standing by. LOL

Life's to short for QRP. QRO BABY QRO!  Wink   Smiley   Grin  }:>)  {:>)

Clayton
W4KVW
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KX4OM
Member

Posts: 11




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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2013, 12:39:21 PM »

Let's change all contest rules to deduct points for operating an:

1) Antenna with gain over an isotropic dipole radiator in free space
2) Antenna with height over terrain referenced to Death Valley
3) Antenna without obstruction of trees or structures within 10 wavelengths of operating frequency
4) Antenna located within 1 km of a body of saltwater; and proof that subsurface groundwater within 1/4 wavelength depth of surface soil is not saline or brackish
5) Antenna that is visible from the property line

Also, lets mandate that:

1) Antenna masts and radiating element structures must be constructed from bamboo, a highly renewable natural resource
2) The final PEP power output of the transmitter must be equal to or better than 80 percent of power input (Class E, or possibly Class D operation)
3) Supports and guy wires for masts and wire antennas must be rope made from hemp, a renewable resource that will be increasing in availability in California and Colorado.

That's a start. The NSA may have additional tippy-top secret, burn-before-reading requirements that cannot be disclosed through the FCC or your local congressman.


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KD4TVB
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Posts: 81




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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2013, 06:11:59 PM »

Hi QRPers,

If you would like a web site to list all your QRP contest just let me know.
I have made a few contacts on ten meters QRP and it can be a lot of fun.
I have heard some stations on 40 meters drop the power back to 50, 10 & 5 watts and could still here them even thow there signal dropped a lot.

Best 73,
Charles,
KD4TVB,
ncphotos@gmail.com,

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AA4GA
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Posts: 118


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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2013, 08:12:45 PM »

Hey Dan - congrats on the win...I'm not familiar with that CQ program, so I'll have to look it up.

Sorry I missed out on all the fireworks so far, but am glad to see that the point was made that QRP has nothing to do with antennas.  Nothing. 

Do a lot of folks who run QRP also run inefficient antennas and take pride from their accomplishments with those antennas?  Yes, and rightly so.

But no one should ever be made to feel bad because they're a QRPer running a big antenna. 

I also think that a lot of folks think that the gain from those super antennas provides a greater advantage than is really the case.  It's a pretty rare HF Yagi that gives more than about 6dBd or so gain.  K8NA said one time something to the effect of "Once you put up a tribander, you're most likely within 6 dB of the maximum gain no matter what else you put up".  RX directivity and angle of radiation are at least as important as gain for most antenna installations.  You get a lower angle of radiation from antenna height - should we say the QRPers who put up dipoles at 100' aren't playing fair compared to those with dipoles at 30'?

I've worked almost all areas of the world with 5 Watts and an 80m doublet up about 45', I'm missing 4 or 5 CQ Zones...I'm sure they'll come with the right propagation one day - QRP with small-ish antennas works.  Large DXCC totals come from patience - the flea-powered stations are capable of completing the path, it's just whether or not one can make it through the competition. 

And, I'm aware that many, if not most, hams (especially QRPers) are just happy with the achievement and aren't looking for wallpaper or recognition.  But, some are, and no problem with that either.

Isn't it about time for "Zenki" to come in here and complain that 5 Watts should not be the measure of QRP...
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