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Author Topic: Unpatriotic activity?  (Read 4189 times)
OH6ECF
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Posts: 5




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« on: August 19, 2013, 05:11:48 AM »

Hello Smiley

There is one oddity I have been seen on couple on sites on net, which have really raised my curiosity. So I registered here just to ask about it.

There is a rumor that some US hams consider ros-mode as "unpatriotic". Is that really so? What does "unpatriotic" mean in that sense of mind?

I am not user of ros, just interested of cultural differencies.

Another thing I wanted to ask is: There seems to be strong difference between CB:ers and Hams in USA. Am I right? Is it still so or is it more like past? Or does it vary between States?

Here in Finland "freebanding" means mostly that hams mod their equipment to work on CB channels, to join on local activity which is mostly on ssb in CB freqs. I think majority of "CB":ers have ham call also. Is there (usually) local "ham-activity" on CB-channels in US?

Tarmo, OH6ECF
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K1CJS
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 05:39:00 AM »

There will always be ham operators who think any radically new mode that doesn't originate in the US is 'unpatriotic'.  From what I understand, and I admit to only a brief glossing over of the subject, that mode is skirting the FCC regulations and is frowned on over here.  I guarantee that if it is as good as it is said to be, there will be hams over here that will pick up on it and use it--no matter what other hams over here say, as long as it doesn't violate regulations to the point of getting ourselves in hot water!

To the subject of CBers and hams in the US, the FCC dropped all licensing of CB users years ago, and since the hams over here sometimes have 'tight shorts,'   Grin  there is and always will be hams who look at CBers with contempt.  They won't think twice about talking the CBers down--even if they themselves originally got into the radio hobby by using CB.

Another thing that adds to the schism is the lack of enforcement in the CB bands over here.  You can regularly find CBers who run output power way over the legal limits--and who splash into the ham bands when doing so, and also--with the availability of illegal (in the US) rigs--will encroach on the 10 meter band.  If enough complaints come from an area, the FCC may do some enforcing, but usually they turn a blind eye to the illegal shenanigans that CBers do.

Freebanding is also known over here as 'bootlegging,' and as I explained is a problem, not only from individual CBers, but also from some businesses who will get those illegal radios and use them on the CB and ten meter bands.  For example, New York and some other larger metropolitan areas had taxi companies who used those radios (or regular ham 10 meter rigs) and were making a mess of 10 meters in their cities.

There are other things of lesser extent that have served to throw a wedge between hams and CBers over here, but those are the most common examples--and it all stems from a basic lack of enforcement on the part of the FCC.  Hams over here police our own bands and do a fairly good job of it while the CBers don't even bother.  Maybe that's the chief reason why there is so much friction between them and us.

73 and take care,   Chris, K1CJS
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M6GOM
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 08:52:33 AM »


There is a rumor that some US hams consider ros-mode as "unpatriotic". Is that really so? What does "unpatriotic" mean in that sense of mind?


They're typically brainwashed halfwits who stand there with their hand on their chest swearing the oath of allegiance to a bit of cloth at every opportunity and can be frequently found chanting "USA #1" and "'Murika F**k, yeah" and who think the solution to everything is more guns or to bomb the brown skinned people.

Chest beating patriots in America that call anyone using anything not originating in the USA unpatriotic are a "special" breed of human being best ignored. They're usually hypocrites as well. They'll berate anyone in the USA not using anything "built in America" whilst sat there using a Kenwood radio.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:54:35 AM by M6GOM » Logged
TANAKASAN
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Posts: 933




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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 09:10:58 AM »

The 'unpatriotic' thing is mostly a matter of culture and individual attitudes. During WWII my mother was suspended from school for a while for being unpatriotic because she liked listening to Beethoven (and Germany wasn't exactly flavor of the month at that time). Bringing things up to date there is the attitude of 'either you're with us or you're against us' with no concept of neutrality. Some attitudes never seem to change and how one particular mode could possibly be regarded as unpatriotic is beyond me.

As for the CB Vs Ham Radio debate, some hams assume that CB Radio enthusiasts are of a lower technical standard than ham operators, possibly because no examination is involved. Such a debate could occupy tens of Mb on the Eham.net servers and I'm not going to enter into it.

I wouldn't worry about it, get on air, build stuff, make friends and have fun.

Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about.
Mark Twain


Tanakasan
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G3RZP
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 10:34:41 AM »

Forgive my ignorance, but what is 'ros'?
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W1JKA
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Posts: 1770




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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 11:55:44 AM »

Re: G3RZP

I'm curious myself, just looked it up and just another digital/computer based mode that doesn't interest me anyway so didn't bother with specifics. Until now I always thought ROS meant ( retirees on strike) which of course is very unpatriotic here in the states.
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G3RZP
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 12:18:53 PM »

Tanakasan,

Amazing when you consider so many of the BBC broadcasts in WW2 started with the opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony - and I believe, even some from Aspidistra.

W1JKA - computer digital mode. Doesn't interest me, either. The last 20 + years of my professional life have been digital communications of various types over radio, which is why no interest in them for ham radio...
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OH6ECF
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Posts: 5




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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 01:14:42 PM »

Many thanks for all who answered!

So  I ended up to these conclusions:

"Unpatriotic" in this  point of view is something like choosing Toyota instead of GM. It now makes sense for me.
In little country like Finland there is not much patriotism like this, because there is not much domestic options.
(There is not really finish ham transceivers... except a modded Nokia phone Smiley
So there really are opinions that ros is unpatriotic, but it does not mean that McCarthy is coming back.

About CB vs. Hams I can see now, that there really is considerable interference. I havent realized that before because there is very little commercial  use on CB or other analog radios on Finland. When ssb came legalized on CB, it leads to local CB activity raising really much. (Like sometimes I can hear local activity even at TWO channels same time, can you imagine Cheesy) So naturally many  hams joined there also.
I havent realized before that big cities on US may have more populations than whole Finland. (Havent check that).
So interference is totally different question there. In Finland 80% of interference come with skip from Russia, where analog radios seems also have widespreaded use on taxicompanies etc.

So you have open my mind a little, thanks!

Tarmo, OH6ECF
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N6AJR
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 11:36:48 AM »

G3rzp, that ain't Beethoven's 5th, they are sending a V for Victory like in the series Victory at sea.
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KE3WD
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Posts: 5689




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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 03:29:21 PM »

BBC did indeed play an orchestral version of Beethoven's Fifth opening before broadcasts in WWII. 

Churchill left no stone unturned to ram his V for victory up Hitler's you-know-what at any and every chance, and it was one of those happy coincidences that the three G 8th notes followed by the E long note also happens to be the Morse for the letter V. 

73
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W1ITT
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Posts: 147




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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 12:15:05 PM »

The confusion with ROS has nothing to do with patriotism.  The problem is that the developers described ROS as a "spread spectrum" mode, and that is not allowed at present  by the Federal Communications Commission on the lower bands.  There was Special Temporary Authority granted for experimentation a year or so ago, but I don't think it's still in effect. 
ROS appears to be a very useful mode, and not wider than other comparable digital modes.  I'd like to see it made legal here in the States, and it makes no difference to most of us Yanks who invented it or where.  I suspect that if the developers had just said it was a new digital mode and not used the "spread spectrum" term, the FCC wouldn't have had any problem with it.
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KJ6ZOL
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Posts: 387




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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 12:58:27 PM »

To the subject of CBers and hams in the US, the FCC dropped all licensing of CB users years ago, and since the hams over here sometimes have 'tight shorts,'   Grin  there is and always will be hams who look at CBers with contempt.  They won't think twice about talking the CBers down--even if they themselves originally got into the radio hobby by using CB.

Another thing that adds to the schism is the lack of enforcement in the CB bands over here.  You can regularly find CBers who run output power way over the legal limits--and who splash into the ham bands when doing so, and also--with the availability of illegal (in the US) rigs--will encroach on the 10 meter band.  If enough complaints come from an area, the FCC may do some enforcing, but usually they turn a blind eye to the illegal shenanigans that CBers do.

Freebanding is also known over here as 'bootlegging,' and as I explained is a problem, not only from individual CBers, but also from some businesses who will get those illegal radios and use them on the CB and ten meter bands.  For example, New York and some other larger metropolitan areas had taxi companies who used those radios (or regular ham 10 meter rigs) and were making a mess of 10 meters in their cities.

There are other things of lesser extent that have served to throw a wedge between hams and CBers over here, but those are the most common examples--and it all stems from a basic lack of enforcement on the part of the FCC.  Hams over here police our own bands and do a fairly good job of it while the CBers don't even bother.  Maybe that's the chief reason why there is so much friction between them and us.

73 and take care,   Chris, K1CJS

The FCC has only recently been cracking down on websites that sell illegal CB amplifiers. One site was selling homebrew CB amps that could pump out as much as 8 kW! (Legal limit for US CB is five WATTS.) The rigs were apparently built in house and put out spurious emissions. Another site was apparently importing 11m amps from Europe, illegally. Other CBers build their own, and those amps are inevitably slapped together and put out harmonics all over the place. Those are the guys who tend to get fined by the FCC. One guy in California was interfering with his local fire department's VHF freq by using a homebrew CB amp. He was fined. The FCC occasionally fines CB freebanders, but usually the violation has to be pretty egregious before the FCC will get involved. In the US, only a handful of CB channels are actually used by their intended users-long haul truckers (think they're called "hauliers" in Europe, after the English fashion)-and CB is 40 channels here, so there's a LOT of dead air that is just begging to be appropriated by some idiot. There's no licenses for CB, as others have noted, so anybody can buy a rig and get on the air.
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K7KBN
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 01:48:19 PM »

Legal limit for CB in USA is FOUR watts RF output.  The (really!) old "five watt" limit referred to DC power input to the final amplifier.

Like the (really!) old ham power limit of 1KW; that was DC input.
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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
K1CJS
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Posts: 6045




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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 05:41:36 AM »

...The FCC occasionally fines CB freebanders, but usually the violation has to be pretty egregious before the FCC will get involved. In the US, only a handful of CB channels are actually used by their intended users-long haul truckers (think they're called "hauliers" in Europe, after the English fashion)-and CB is 40 channels here, so there's a LOT of dead air that is just begging to be appropriated by some idiot. There's no licenses for CB, as others have noted, so anybody can buy a rig and get on the air.

Truckers are the 'intended users' of CB?  Truckers took up using CB long after the FCC took 11 meters away from hams and enacted the original 'CB' band.  It wasn't called the truckers band, after all.  CB was meant for the general citizenry to have access to a radio band for enjoyment and short range personal communications.

The uses that truckers put CB to were originally to keep long haul truckers alert and awake during their driving stints.  Then it was for them to keep each other informed about driving and road conditions, then to warn each other about police activity--or 'smokie reports' as they used to be called.  Then companies with loading/unloading facilities got into the picture and started using the CB frequencies as an easy way to get truckers to their assigned docks and doors to back their rig into to unload/load.

Now it seems that the truckers are the predominant users of the CB frequencies, at least here in the US-- especially on channels 19--the general road frequency, and 9, the CB 'emergency' frequency.  The upper frequencies, channels 30 to 40 are used by sidebanders most of the time with the rest used locally by whoever wants to use them--these days hardly anybody.  The FRS radios are more popular now for good reason for those who want short distance comms.

Now to enforcement.  A local man (in my area) was brazenly open about his CB uses--including high power transmissions--with the belief that the FCC couldn't be bothered.  Well, he was active for about 2 years--till the day when the FCC, the federal marshalls, and the state police paid him a visit.  They confiscated ALL of his radio gear, cut coax just about wherever they found it, pulled down the antennas he had up--including on his van--and slapped him with fines totalling in excess of $10,000!  It turns out that they had over a years worth of recordings where he identified himself and his location and brazenly stated--many time--that he couldn't care less about the 'feds.'

The FCC listens to complaints--and to the bands about which the complaints are made, and takes action if the situation in their opinion warrants it.  If you want to read more, google 'FM broadcast band pirates' to see what they do to unlicensed FM broadcast stations, especially in Florida.  73!
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AC4RD
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 09:16:46 AM »

 CB was meant for the general citizenry to have access to a radio band for enjoyment and short range personal communications.

Yep!  I've got a Radio Shack ad from 1959, showing a ten-tube "Globe 11-meter Citizens Broadcaster,"  $129.95 (including crystals for 1 channel).  The ad shows the users as "Salesmen! Lumbermen! Warehousemen! Dispatchers!  Boat owners!  Garagemen!  Camps!  Sportsmen!  Executives!"
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