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Author Topic: Best Log for QSL Mangement/ award tracking  (Read 98277 times)
N0IU
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« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2013, 12:44:07 PM »

There are also tens of thousands of DXLab USERS who have never written a review.
(Emphasis added by me)

Again with the numbers!

So are there really "tens of thousands" of actual users, or is it just that the program has been downloaded tens of thousands of times?

Among the 111 ops who took the time to download DXLab and write a review, the statistics are unarguable: 95% rated it 5. Fewer than 5% rated it 3 or lower.

Saying that there are "tens of thousands" of users would mean that there are at least 20,000 users of your program since tens of thousands implies that there is more than one multiple of ten thousand. So out of these 20,000 so-called "users", 105 of them think your program is great. That is a little over ½ of 1%. Besides being an incredibly small sampling, that number is not based on any scientific data collection method that I know of so I would have to say that you really cannot draw any definite conclusions based on that number alone.

You you go on to say:
There are more than 100 eHam reviews of DXLab that show Stan's opinion to be that of a small minority.
and:
I cited the eHam reviews to demonstrate that your low opinion of DXLab is that of a small minority.
and:
Your understanding of mathematics evidently needs a refresh.

And I could go on and on with the number of times you referenced the eHam reviews as a way of contradicting Stan’s remarks or confirming just how much the amateur radio community prefers your offering over the older MDI schemes, but I think you get the point.

But  with all due respect Dave, I think that you are the one who needs a refresher course in mathematics and statistical analysis. Just because ½ of 1% of the people that you claim to be users of your program gave it a 5 out of 5, this does necessarily translate into the fact that Stan’s opinion of DXLabs is that of a small minority.

Yes, we are engaged in a technology-based hobby, but I tend to believe that most of us are not all that sophisticated when it comes to computer technology. I also tend to believe that a great many of us are not even that sophisticated when it comes to being amateur radio operators. While you may use the latest techniques in programming, I think a lot of that skill is lost on people like me (and probably Stan) who do not necessarily need to have the bleeding edge technology in our shacks. And although your list of unique features is impressive, I also think a lot of that is lost on people like us.

To summarize:

1)   You are using false logic to assume (which is a very dangerous thing to do!) that just because 95% of the 111 people who reviewed your program gave it a “perfect” score, this is not necessarily is the consensus of “tens of thousands” of so-called “users”.
2)   You are so quick to write off Stan as being in the minority based on this small handful reviews, but I believe that Stan and I are actually more representative of the “typical” amateur radio operator.

I am not casting aspersions on your skills as a programmer or the value of your efforts. I think it is wonderful that you have the skill to translate your passion for amateur radio into a collection of programs and offer it for free. Obviously many people use it and find it to be of value. Of course you think your program is the best one-stop-shopping solution to station computerization and automation. After all, you wrote it!





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K9IUQ
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« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2013, 02:35:19 PM »

2)   You are so quick to write off Stan as being in the minority based on this small handful reviews, but I believe that Stan and I are actually more representative of the “typical” amateur radio operator.

I am the typical every day ham and have been for 53 years. I would probably like DXLabs if it looked and acted like a modern Windows program instead of looking like Win 3.1 software and that this being kind. . DXLabs has functionality, there is no doubt about it. Unfortunately you have to work at it to use it.

I want a logger that is pretty, looks like and acts like a Windows program and is Transparent. DxLabs is none of these.  I want to work DX and have fun, I do not want to work at my Logger, this is a hobby after all.

FWIW I am a active Dxer and since retirement have worked about 300 countries and I did it all without DXLabs.....

I am VERY disappointed in Dave.  This thread has has not helped his reputation. It has shown him to be a Aggressive Salesman who want to push and push and push his product no matter what..

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 02:54:27 PM by K9IUQ » Logged
K6XT
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« Reply #92 on: September 07, 2013, 05:52:04 PM »

The naysayers posting on this thread have apparently ignored my advice to go here:

https://secure.clublog.org/software.php

for a table of Clublog users by software application who have at least 200 DXCC in the log.

It might be interesting to propose that anyone other than a brand new or QRP ham who does NOT have 200 countries in the log may not be a DXer, or may not be interested in chasing awards, thus is not truly in the market for an award tracking logger like DXLabSuite. From the perspective that virtually anything including a spreadsheet or sheet of paper can function as a log.

Since my absolutely free advice (Hey! Like DXLabSuite!) hasn't been discussed I'll just post a little from Clublog, hope that's OK with them:
------------------------
This chart shows the logging software used by Club Log users who have worked more than 200 DXCCs (an approximation to filtering DXers). The population of users considered is limited to those with logging software that declares a PROGRAMID in uploaded ADIFs.
Product Name   % of Users
LOGGER32    40%
HAMRADIODELUXE   24%
DXKEEPER   22%
AMATEUR CONTACT LOG   7%
UR5EQF_LOG   7%
---------------
Clublog currently contains 25,970 callsigns, that is, 25,970 logs have been uploaded to Clublog. Extrapolating just from this table is therefore somewhat suspect, but lets try. Supposing the ratio between "users" and "users who have 200 DXCC" remains constant. That would imply there are 5,713 users who also use DXLabSuite. With well over a million hams worldwide only a small fraction, 25,970, use Clublog. Some of the other million use DXLabSuite. Thus it is not unreasonable to suppose that there is indeed at least one, ten-thousand ham unit, of hams using DXLabSuite. Conjecture to be sure but not at all unrealistic.

Looking at the table another way there is only a microscopic difference between the population of hams using Clublog with DXKeeper and with HRD Log.

Now look at this Clublog table, ARRL DXCC program Honor Roll recipients vs logger:
------------
This chart shows the logging software used by Club Log users who are on the DXCC honor roll (as measured by the number of DXCCs worked in their account). The population of users considered is limited to those with logging software that declares a PROGRAMID in uploaded ADIFs.
Product Name   % of Users
LOGGER32   55%
DXKEEPER   28%
DXBASE   7%
HAMRADIODELUXE   5%
WIN-EQF*   5%
-----------
Clearly showing some loggers fade quickly when confronted with a serious DXer, defined as one who is on the Honor Roll. Two loggers claim 83% of this category. I define serious DXer as someone vitally concerned with data integrity and with accurate award tracking, who invests considerable time working with (looking at) a logger. I'm one of those.

Now for the alternative view. Here's a Clublog look at new hams by logger:
--------------
This chart shows the logging software used by Club Log users who are on the DXCC honor roll (as measured by the number of DXCCs worked in their account). The population of users considered is limited to those with logging software that declares a PROGRAMID in uploaded ADIFs.
Software Used By New Hams [Top 5]

This chart shows the logging software used by Club Log users who have a total of less than 3 years activity in their log (excluding expeditions). The population of users considered is limited to those with logging software that declares a PROGRAMID in uploaded ADIFs.
Product Name   % of Users
HAMRADIODELUXE   39%
LOGGER32   30%
DXKEEPER   18%
UR5EQF_LOG   7%
WIN-TEST   7%
-------------------
Compare this table to the Honor Roll table. The inescapable conclusion to me is that new hams initially are taken in by the glitz approach some programs present to the user. Ultimately as the new user DXer matures they find some important features lacking in the glitz approach (as I do) and gravitate to other solutions like DXLabSuite and Logger32.

I've never seen Logger32, maybe I should go look. Seems like it captures a lot of interest. Although if the 32 means it only runs on 32 bit systems, that will be that, don't have any.

There is much more to be learned about loggers on Clublog. I'll close by repeating, for the dedicated or bored reader who got this far, the URL:

https://secure.clublog.org/software.php

DXLabSuite is not the only solution. From analyzing the ~25,970 calls submitted to Clublog there can be only one conclusion. Its one of the most popular. No matter what the nit pickers posting here have to say.

PS. Other than a satisfied user I have no interest in the administration of DXLabSuite or any other logger. And did I mention, its free. By far I do not have the largest log in ham radio. At 76,827 QSOs and counting, however, its also far from the smallest. Award tracking and data security, i.e. how well a logger cares for my database file, are paramount. Without wishing to display the numbers, it will suffice to say that DXLabSuite takes care of my ~77K QSO electronic log and tracks my awards with several bands well over 300 countries. Lacking a monumental reason I'd be a sucker to consider changing from something, DXLabSuite, that works.

Now if only I could find a typing student willing to enter my logs from 1958 to 1988. Frankly I'm too lazy. ( I began computer logging in '89). If anyone is willing to help with that send email to k6xt at arrl dot net.

73 Art K6XT

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AA6YQ
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« Reply #93 on: September 07, 2013, 06:33:06 PM »

There are also tens of thousands of DXLab users who have never written a review.
So are there really "tens of thousands" of actual users
Yes.

Saying that there are "tens of thousands" of users would mean that there are at least 20,000 users of your program since tens of thousands implies that there is more than one multiple of ten thousand.
Correct.

So out of these 20,000 so-called "users", 105 of them think your program is great.
Of the 111 ops who chose to write a review of DXLab, 105 rated it 5.0. The larger population includes ops who have never heard of DXLab, ops have heard of it but have never tried it, ops who have tried it but don't use it and haven't reviewed it, and ops who use it, but haven't reviewed it.

And I could go on and on with the number of times you referenced the eHam reviews as a way of contradicting Stan’s remarks or confirming just how much the amateur radio community prefers your offering over the older MDI schemes, but I think you get the point.

But  with all due respect Dave, I think that you are the one who needs a refresher course in mathematics and statistical analysis. Just because ½ of 1% of the people that you claim to be users of your program gave it a 5 out of 5, this does necessarily translate into the fact that Stan’s opinion of DXLabs is that of a small minority.

Stan claimed that users who posted positive reviews of other applications counted as "rejections" of DXLab, which is ludicrous. Many ops who use other applications haven't even heard of DXLab, much less assessed it. It was in response to this claim that I suggested his need for a refresher.

Yes, we are engaged in a technology-based hobby, but I tend to believe that most of us are not all that sophisticated when it comes to computer technology. I also tend to believe that a great many of us are not even that sophisticated when it comes to being amateur radio operators. While you may use the latest techniques in programming, I think a lot of that skill is lost on people like me (and probably Stan) who do not necessarily need to have the bleeding edge technology in our shacks. And although your list of unique features is impressive, I also think a lot of that is lost on people like us.

I have not claimed that DXLab is appropriate for every user. It's strong automation of QSLing and award tracking is of little use to the op who rarely QSLs and doesn't pursue awards. Its ability to maintain a database of active DX stations that can be simultaneously viewed in multiple dimensions is highly valuable to HF DXers, but is of little interest to microwave or EME ops. DXLab is explicitly not a contesting application; it can generate Cabrillo logs, but does not (and will not ever) provide realtime scoring.

That said, every op appreciates using applications in which every reported defect has been corrected, and in which newly-reported defects are usually corrected within 24 hours. No matter what their appetite is for leading edge automation, most users love the ability to suggest an enhancement, refine that suggestion in collaboration with other users, download/update with a couple of mouse clicks a day or three later, and then suggest further refinements based on their and the user community's experience with the new capability.

DXLab has been growing through this collaborative process for the past 13 years, with direct engagement from thousands of users. These users have grown as well; not just in their ability to use DXLab, but in their understanding of software and its potential to amplify and extend human abilities.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 06:47:53 PM by AA6YQ » Logged
AA6YQ
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« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2013, 06:46:51 PM »

2)   You are so quick to write off Stan as being in the minority based on this small handful reviews, but I believe that Stan and I are actually more representative of the “typical” amateur radio operator.

I am the typical every day ham and have been for 53 years. I would probably like DXLabs if it looked and acted like a modern Windows program instead of looking like Win 3.1 software and that this being kind. . DXLabs has functionality, there is no doubt about it. Unfortunately you have to work at it to use it.

I want a logger that is pretty, looks like and acts like a Windows program and is Transparent. DxLabs is none of these.  I want to work DX and have fun, I do not want to work at my Logger, this is a hobby after all.

FWIW I am a active Dxer and since retirement have worked about 300 countries and I did it all without DXLabs.....

I am VERY disappointed in Dave.  This thread has has not helped his reputation. It has shown him to be a Aggressive Salesman who want to push and push and push his product no matter what..

I'm not selling anything; DXLab is completely free. Anyone who takes a look at DXLab and finds it inappropriate is free to try any alternative.

If DXLab is as terrible as you claim, Stan, why is it necessary for you to so tenaciously denounce it? If your assessment is correct, wouldn't users who try DXLab reach this conclusion on their own, and go on to other alternatives?

The reality is that most users who try DXLab find it easy to use and highly valuable, particularly for DXing. Many of those who contributed eHam reviews were previously using other logging applications, or had tried many other logging applications before choosing DXLab; they were not "newbies".

Unless you're just a forum policeman run amuck, your true motivation for aggressively seeking to limit awareness of DXLab can only be a fear that users who learn of it will give it a try, and many will choose it over other alternatives. Why this is problematic for you is an exercise left to the reader.
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N5INP
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« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2013, 06:54:59 PM »

Just as an overall comment - there's a lot that can mislead people in an unscientific ratings system.

Suppose I try program A and I rate it a "5.0".

Suppose in a month I then try program B and I find it is a lot better than program A. Now I want to rate program B. The problem is I can't rate it higher than program A even though I think it's a lot better. All I can do now is rate it the same as program A - a "5.0", even though I'd like to rate it, say, a "8.0" as compared to program A.

And so it goes. Sometimes I wish there were no ratings numbers - just pros and cons for each item in the review. Quite a bit of this is subjective and so what is a con to one person is a pro to another.
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N0IU
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« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2013, 05:14:10 AM »

Hey Stan, the next time you come up to St. Louis from beautiful Southern Illinois, I will buy you a beer and you can come over to my house so I can show you all of my "wall candy" that I earned without the benefit of DXLabs software.

Or maybe I will see you at the Winterfest in Collinsville on January 25, 2014. You can't miss me. I'll be the guy wearing a baseball cap with my callsign on it!
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2013, 05:22:56 AM »

Or maybe I will see you at the Winterfest in Collinsville on January 25, 2014. You can't miss me. I'll be the guy wearing a baseball cap with my callsign on it!

WX permitting I always go to Winterfest. Kirkwood Halloween fest too.

Stan K9IUQ
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2013, 05:23:40 AM »

Stan, why is it necessary for you to so tenaciously denounce it?

Unless you're just a forum policeman run amuck, your true motivation for aggressively seeking to limit awareness of DXLab can only be a fear that users who learn of it will give it a try, and many will choose it over other alternatives. Why this is problematic for you is an exercise left to the reader.

HUH?Huh?
Have you not been paying attention to what I have been posting Dave?
Oh I forgot you only see what you want to see and try to spin what you do not like...

I have said before and will say it again:

Try all the loggers out, they have a free trial.

Do you not understand what ALL means Dave? It means ALL loggers INCLUDING DXLABs.

The only ham who has been tenacious in this thread has been you. Salesman Dave AA6YQ has been Tenaciously promoting and pushing DXLabs over and over and over and over every post you make...

YES leave to the reader, keep it up Dave, you are making quite an impression ...


Stan K9IUQ

« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 05:29:08 AM by K9IUQ » Logged
AA6YQ
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« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2013, 11:24:20 AM »

Stan, why is it necessary for you to so tenaciously denounce it?

Unless you're just a forum policeman run amuck, your true motivation for aggressively seeking to limit awareness of DXLab can only be a fear that users who learn of it will give it a try, and many will choose it over other alternatives. Why this is problematic for you is an exercise left to the reader.

Have you not been paying attention to what I have been posting Dave?

Yes: You've repeatedly insisted that I stop responding to users seeking recommendations for functionality that DXLab provides, arguing that users should somehow discover DXLab on their own. Minimizing awareness of DXLab is clearly your objective.

Call me names, post in bold, and use those goofy icons as much as you like: I will continue to develop DXLab in collaboration with its user community, DXLab will always be free, and I will continue to respond to user requests here and elsewhere that DXLab would satisfy.

Case closed.
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2013, 01:58:59 PM »

your true motivation for aggressively seeking to limit awareness of DXLab can only be a fear that users who learn of it will give it a try, and many will choose it over other alternatives.

 arguing that users should somehow discover DXLab on their own. Minimizing awareness of DXLab is clearly your objective.

 post in bold, and use those goofy icons as much as you like: 

Case closed.


 HUH?Huh?? HUH?Huh?? What you talking about Dave?    Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I have said before and will say it again:

Try all the loggers out, they have a free trial.

Do you not understand what ALL means Dave? It means ALL loggers INCLUDING DXLABs.


CASE CLOSED
   Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Grin Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Wink Wink Smiley Smiley Cry Tongue Embarrassed Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed Undecided Undecided Undecided Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss Kiss

Stan K9IUQ

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NI0C
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« Reply #101 on: September 10, 2013, 06:38:47 PM »

Quote
I am VERY disappointed in Dave.  This thread has has not helped his reputation. It has shown him to be a Aggressive Salesman who want to push and push and push his product no matter what..

Look, Dave, AA6YQ, one of the world's top DX'ers, has been continuously upgrading his DXLab software modules and offering it to the amateur community for free for 13 years.  You obviously don't like the software and have been complaining about it in this forum ad nauseum. 

Dave has patiently rebutted your remarks and corrected you and others concerning distortions and mis-perceptions.  That's not "pushing a product." It is fact-checking.  Dave's reputation is not tarnished a bit.

What about your reputation, though?  What are we to make of a person who continuously attacks someone who has given so much to the amateur community, and doesn't have the decency to say "no thanks" if he doesn't like it, and move on?

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #102 on: September 11, 2013, 04:25:41 AM »


Dave has patiently rebutted your remarks and corrected you and others concerning distortions and mis-perceptions.  That's not "pushing a product." It is fact-checking. 

Thanks for my laugh of the day. All Dave has done here is what he always does in any Logger/Digital thread. He pushes his product. His or my reputation has nothing to do with his constant DxLabs advertisements in eham forums.

It is no distortion to say that DXLabs has an outdated and ugly, non-intuitive GUI. It is merely the truth, no matter how Dave spins it.

Stan K9IUQ
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NI0C
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« Reply #103 on: September 11, 2013, 04:54:14 AM »


Dave has patiently rebutted your remarks and corrected you and others concerning distortions and mis-perceptions.  That's not "pushing a product." It is fact-checking. 

Thanks for my laugh of the day. All Dave has done here is what he always does in any Logger/Digital thread. He pushes his product. His or my reputation has nothing to do with his constant DxLabs advertisements in eham forums.

It is no distortion to say that DXLabs has an outdated and ugly, non-intuitive GUI. It is merely the truth, no matter how Dave spins it.

Stan K9IUQ

I'm glad you are so easily amused. 

So Dave mentions his free software when the subject of logging software comes up.  I think that's entirely appropriate.  It's how I learned about it.   

So you don't happen to like the looks of the interface-- why do you have this need to be so repetitive about it?  In a forum post above, Art, K6XT, has provided data showing that a whole lot of serious DX'ers worldwide choose to use DXLab-- they don't care what you think.

Your reputation is not enhanced by sniping at what others are contributing to the hobby. 

73,
Chuck  NI0C

     
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N5INP
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« Reply #104 on: September 11, 2013, 05:06:47 AM »

It is no distortion to say that DXLabs has an outdated and ugly, non-intuitive GUI. It is merely the truth, no matter how Dave spins it.

I don't really need it yet, but I'm going to download the DX Labs logging package (DX Keeper?) and just see what all the fuss is about. I've been using Windows for a long time at home and in my career and I'm as qualified as anyone to make comments at least about the user interface, if nothing else.  Smiley
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