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Author Topic: PayPal (or lack thereof)  (Read 14358 times)
KG8LB
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« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2014, 01:17:54 PM »

The more vehemently a seller resists Paypal the more certain it seems he should be avoided .
The seller has everything to gain , he holds the goods , he gave the description and he gets pure cash immediately from the money order . All well and good for him . All too often we see where MO is sent , goods never arrive or junk gets there instead . Check out the feedback topic here and at QTH . It becomes obvious that there are far more SCAMS involving money orders than Paypal period . Money orders are the scammer's best tool . It is not too uncommon to see/hear scammers bashing , whining about and refusing to accept Paypal . Consider their protestations a huge favor . Buy elsewhere .
Also worthy of note are seller demands that the buyer pays the Paypal fees or worse yet , submits payment as a "gift" to avoid the fees . That seller agreed not to request buyers pay fees . If he can't stand by his agreement with Paypal why trust his agreement with you ?
Further, if you make the mistake of sending a gift payment he is under no obligation to send you a thing . Your buyer protection is null and void .



The old days are long gone, we agree on that. We also agree that you would not buy anything from me and I wouldn't sell anything to you, very simple. No need to be long winded.

  You can add me to your no sales list , you already made my never buy from list .... Along with quite a few others so don't feel alone , I won't .
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NK7Z
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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2014, 05:05:29 PM »

The more vehemently a seller resists Paypal the more certain it seems he should be avoided .
You can add me to your no sales list , you already made my never buy from list .... Along with quite a few others so don't feel alone , I won't .
KG8LB,
I must say I agree totally with you, the louder a seller whines about how tough it is to sell things, and how he is forced into not allowing Paypal by all the evil buyers out there-- the more I shy away, and outright distrust them of late.  I have bought and sold for well over 10 years using Paypal, both as a seller, and as a buyer, and I have had two issues in that ten year period, one with a flat out dishonest seller who simply took my money and never said another word nor shipped anything, and one who refused to send a forty nine cent part that the shipper broke, after the seller decided to not insure, when I suggested he insure it in the first place.  I even offered to pay the insurance fee.  Both times Paypal correctly resolved the issue.   

So...  When I hear a seller whining about Paypal for ANY reason, I just keep my cash in my pocket, add the seller to the "no-buy" list, chuckle, and move on.
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WB6DGN
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« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2014, 09:17:35 PM »

Quote
What threw me was the lack of response regarding any other avenues of payment rather than the verboten PayPal. It seems once PayPal was mentioned all bets were off. No pictures...no additional information...nothing.

Not time to get huffy yet.  Seller may have just assumed (possibly incorrectly) that, if you can't use PayPal, that you wouldn't be interested.

If you're open to other options, give the seller the courtesy of another email explaining what you are willing to do.  This whole exchange seems like a major lack of communication on BOTH sides.
Tom
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KG8LB
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« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2014, 04:53:22 AM »

Usually when a seller flatly says "NO PAYPAL" it is pretty clear he expects MO or plain old dollars . At that point I may seek other means but as stated , the more vehemently the seller denies Paypal , the more wary I become.

 Not so much a lack of communication , more like a lot of experience .
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K1CJS
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« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2014, 06:03:49 AM »

The more vehemently a seller resists Paypal the more certain it seems he should be avoided .

The same can be said of anybody unwilling to use anything but PayPal.

Quote
The seller has everything to gain , he holds the goods , he gave the description and he gets pure cash immediately from the money order . All well and good for him . All too often we see where MO is sent , goods never arrive or junk gets there instead ....

The reverse is also true with the way PayPal does business.  The unscrupulous buyer files a complaint that the goods were not as described and demands a refund.  PayPal 'investigates' after the goods were received and tampered with, and finds for the buyer--no matter what the seller claims or can prove.  The buyer gets a full refund.  The seller gets shafted with the return of goods that either has parts removed or that is not what he sent the buyer in the first place.  It's happened.  

There is NO honesty guarantee--especially these days--on anything but a face to face cash deal, and sometimes not even then!
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NK7Z
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« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2014, 06:35:50 AM »

There is NO honesty guarantee--especially these days--on anything but a face to face cash deal, and sometimes not even then!
While I totally disagree with your Paypal stance, I do agree with you on this point... 
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K8AXW
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« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2014, 11:04:09 AM »

The point of using PayPal is not to eliminate all dishonesty but to minimize the chances of either the seller or buyer from getting ripped off.

No matter how a sale is made, there is always someone with a new scheme to burn you.  I'm willing to bet that more people are protected by PayPal than those who get burned.

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KG8LB
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« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2014, 11:54:42 AM »

The more vehemently a seller resists Paypal the more certain it seems he should be avoided .

The same can be said of anybody unwilling to use anything but PayPal.



  Actually , in the real world there are far more frauds perpetrated by sellers demanding checks or money orders  than by sellers demanding Paypal only or even buyers who insist onor prefer paying VIA Paypal .

   A long hard study of the frauds here , QTH etc easily illustrate why Paypal is anathema to fraudsters and hucksters . Money orders are simply a way to hand a total stranger a load of cash . You then are forced to rely on his integrity regarding condition , description and if he will indeed pack well ..if he ships it at all . 

  It borders on pure condescension to say there is no "honesty guarantee" . Of course not , makes the point that Paypal beats cash for the buyer by an overwhelming percentage .
 Paypal is a huge stick that often comes in handy when it comes time to whack a scamming seller across the forehead .

    From what I have personally seen , the sellers who claim Paypal helped a buyer cheat them are for the most part just a wounded scam artist that had their plot foiled by Paypal . Sour grapes form them is indeed a sweet sound .

 Again : The more vehemently a seller protests Paypal , the more cause for concern by an HONEST buyer .
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NK7Z
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« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2014, 05:10:07 PM »


    From what I have personally seen , the sellers who claim Paypal helped a buyer cheat them are for the most part just a wounded scam artist that had their plot foiled by Paypal . Sour grapes form them is indeed a sweet sound .

 Again : The more vehemently a seller protests Paypal , the more cause for concern by an HONEST buyer .

Very well put sir!
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K1CJS
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« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2014, 07:26:21 AM »


    From what I have personally seen , the sellers who claim Paypal helped a buyer cheat them are for the most part just a wounded scam artist that had their plot foiled by Paypal . Sour grapes form them is indeed a sweet sound .

Let's agree to disagree--because that is what the bottom line is.  There are just as many fraudsters that are buying as there are that are selling, and the way PayPal is set up to favor the buyers makes it just as bad if not worse than other methods of payment transfer.  One major one comes to the fore here, a company that has such a reputation that it's a wonder it's still in business:  RadioMart.

There is one method of trade that stops fraud cold--but it costs more too.  That is the third party transfer, where both the payment and the goods are sent to a third party arbiter who examines the goods and reports to the buyer, and will not forward the payment unless the buyer accepts the report.

Quote
Again : The more vehemently a seller protests Paypal , the more cause for concern by an HONEST buyer .

And the same that I stated also holds true.  An honest seller can and does get scammed by a dishonest buyer using the PayPal system--which is set up to favor the buyer.
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KG8LB
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« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2014, 08:51:38 AM »

Let's agree to disagree--because that is what the bottom line is.  There are just as many fraudsters that are buying as there are that are selling,

   Your basic premis is flawed ,your bottom line is not accurate .  The overwhelming majority of scam attempts are committed by sellers , period . Scamming buyers exist but they are a very meager minority .  It is far easier for the seller to initate and succeed at scamming . When paid by cash or check , the seller has the goods and the money. The buyer has a promise . When the seller fails to deliver the money order / check people do nothing for the buyer .

   Paypal may appear to side with the buyer , but they have seen far more evidence from both sides than any of us . Paypal indeed is a far safer transaction than money orders or checks , by a large margin .  It is Paypal's best interest to rule fairly , thus weeding out the bad actors . Every claim filed costs Paypal money . The bottom line prefers getting rid of bad sellers and buyers alike .

Then again , scamming sellers are very quick to blame buyers and it is indeed that claim that gives an honest buyer the very clue he needs to decide .
    I have well over 2000 transactions on eBay , loads of others from the old trader nets , Yellow Sheets and QTH .  In all of those transactions I had one "questionable" buyer .
  I have seen my share of the all too typical scamming seller however . Before Paypal there was little to use against the dishonest seller . Since then Paypal has been a very strong lever towards making things right .
Add to that , as a seller I get the money as promised , Not a series of excuses and apologies . As a buyer , I can issue immediate payment without risking another buyer beating me to the goods . Win -Win

   Reading the feedback profiles here , on QTH and QRZ give a very clear perspective on the huge disparity between scamming sellers and the very rare scam attempt from a buyer . Funny thing , seems the scamming buyer often has a track record as a scamming seller as well ! Another thing , scamming sellers and buyers alike often bash Paypal as a common dislike .

  I have no beef with Paypal , glad they are there .

 
 
   Bottom line is we can agree not to deal with each other . My 100% feedback at 2000 plus eBay transactions VIA Paypal however afirms there is little reason to refuse my goods or my payment .

  Yes , the more one argues against Paypal , the less likely he will sell a thing to me .
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NK7Z
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« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2014, 09:37:54 AM »

Let's agree to disagree--because that is what the bottom line is.  There are just as many fraudsters that are buying as there are that are selling,

   Your basic premis is flawed ,your bottom line is not accurate .  The overwhelming majority of scam attempts are committed by sellers , period . Scamming buyers exist but they are a very meager minority .  It is far easier for the seller to initate and succeed at scamming . When paid by cash or check , the seller has the goods and the money. The buyer has a promise . When the seller fails to deliver the money order / check people do nothing for the buyer .

   Paypal may appear to side with the buyer , but they have seen far more evidence from both sides than any of us . Paypal indeed is a far safer transaction than money orders or checks , by a large margin .  It is Paypal's best interest to rule fairly , thus weeding out the bad actors . Every claim filed costs Paypal money . The bottom line prefers getting rid of bad sellers and buyers alike .

Then again , scamming sellers are very quick to blame buyers and it is indeed that claim that gives an honest buyer the very clue he needs to decide .
    I have well over 2000 transactions on eBay , loads of others from the old trader nets , Yellow Sheets and QTH .  In all of those transactions I had one "questionable" buyer .
  I have seen my share of the all too typical scamming seller however . Before Paypal there was little to use against the dishonest seller . Since then Paypal has been a very strong lever towards making things right .
Add to that , as a seller I get the money as promised , Not a series of excuses and apologies . As a buyer , I can issue immediate payment without risking another buyer beating me to the goods . Win -Win

   Reading the feedback profiles here , on QTH and QRZ give a very clear perspective on the huge disparity between scamming sellers and the very rare scam attempt from a buyer . Funny thing , seems the scamming buyer often has a track record as a scamming seller as well ! Another thing , scamming sellers and buyers alike often bash Paypal as a common dislike .

  I have no beef with Paypal , glad they are there .

 
 
   Bottom line is we can agree not to deal with each other . My 100% feedback at 2000 plus eBay transactions VIA Paypal however afirms there is little reason to refuse my goods or my payment .

  Yes , the more one argues against Paypal , the less likely he will sell a thing to me .
I must agree with KG8LB...  I have been selling, and buying for a decade or more on eBay, and on QRZ.  I have NEVER had a buyer cheat me in any way...  Period, never, and I have had two sellers try and cheat me...  I also have a 100% feedback rating on eBay, (as a buyer and seller), and that is because I correctly describe each item I sell, carefully pointing out every issue I can find, both in words and in photos.   The buyer knows what he/she is getting in advance of sending me money.

Again I agree with KG8LB on his scamming seller blaming the buyer point... 

I really think the vehemence of a seller who dislikes Paypal is really a mask to hide any combination of the following:

1.  The seller is cheap, and wants the 2.9%.
2.  The seller wants positively everything in his/her favor, regardless of fairness.
3.  The seller may be a cheat.

With the exception of point 1, (I understand cheap), I don't want to deal with sellers who subscribe to any combination of points 2 and 3, and I vote with my wallet every single time.  When I sell something, I WANT the buyer to feel that he/she has recourse if I cheat them.  It lends to a smooth transaction.  If I get burned, then that is the cost of my doing business in the way I do, and I am willing to accept that.

But the bottom line is I simply don't trust a seller that whines about how unfair Paypal is to them, and how it is more than fair to the buyer...  Period!
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K1CJS
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« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2014, 12:59:09 PM »

Well, gentlemen, despite your insinuations and your rhetoric, I had used PayPal until I got shafted by a buyer--and PayPal.  Now the only thing I use it for are small ticket (less then $20) buying. 

There are both types, honest and scammer, on both sides of dealings.  Just because you have never come across a dishonest buyer doesn't mean there aren't any out there, PayPal user or not.  I hope you never come across one--you'll change your tune quick if you do. 73. 
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KG8LB
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« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2014, 01:51:18 PM »

Your insinuation seems to be that we have denied the very existence buyer fraud . We have not . In fact I allude to having experienced a "questionable " act from a buyer . Rather than whine or bash Paypal , I chose to simply offer a full refund rather than force him to file a claim .

 We have only said clearly that the MORE a seller protests , the more we resist buying from that seller .  Indeed , the buyer has far more at stake than the seller and is far more easily taken advantage of by an unscrupulous seller . Paypal helps protect from that .



 Despite your assertions there are far more fraudulent sellers than buyers .
My decision to avoid sellers who protest Paypal to the extreme is based upon years of experience . I have witnessed the hateful responses of absolutely fraudulent sellers claiming they were wronged by Paypal .   Many of them already had hideous feedback records as sellers yet they continually claim they were taken advantage of by the buyer . A look at the buyer's feedback usually makes it very clear who has the best record . I have been there seen that . Patterns emerge and they give a good indication of what to expect based on their behavior .

  Cruise eBay , find the sellers with horrible feedback records , read the feedback and the responses . You will see how common it is for the high negative seller to claim they are actually the victim ..again and again . They bash the buyer but when you look at that buyer's feedback it becomes obvious who the bad actor is .

  If you read carefully , I simply said the fraudulent seller is the minority among scammers . I didn't say I avoided them altogether , I said the more they bash Paypal , the more I resist dealing with them .

 If after all these years and all the protection that Paypal has provided  , I happen to find they rule against me as a seller ; I will simply man-up and accept the decision . That is how life works . No system is perfect but a seller who denies me the protection of Paypal will get minimal consideration from me .

 As a BUYER  , I very much appreciate the protection afforded from Paypal . My assertions regarding seller protests against Paypal remain .

 

  
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 01:56:43 PM by KG8LB » Logged
NK7Z
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« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2014, 06:34:35 PM »

Well, gentlemen, despite your insinuations and your rhetoric, I had used PayPal until I got shafted by a buyer--and PayPal.  Now the only thing I use it for are small ticket (less then $20) buying. 

There are both types, honest and scammer, on both sides of dealings.  Just because you have never come across a dishonest buyer doesn't mean there aren't any out there, PayPal user or not.  I hope you never come across one--you'll change your tune quick if you do. 73. 

No one has stated that all buyers are good, and no one has stated that all sellers are bad...  If you read upthread, you will find where I stated just the the opposite, that there are issues on both sides...  We are no longer discussing IF people are scammers, we are now discussing WHICH side, buyer, or seller, have more scammers.  It is my assertion that there are far, far, more scammers on the seller side of things, than on the buyer side of things, hence my reason for never purchasing or selling anything without the use of Paypal.
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