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Author Topic: Why is Win 8 bad?  (Read 37416 times)
KF6QEX
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Posts: 614




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« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2014, 01:31:36 AM »

As for those documents that "could" be tainted. Sure they could and when someone figures out how to "tain" Office 2014 or Office 2019 documents. they will "retire" those as well. Instead of slapping MS upside the head for allowing .vbs files to be a) discguised by maining the interface "more friendly" by hiding extensions, and B) executed without warning from the old version of Outlook or word. or Excel .
But saying the old version is "best retired" because of the "possible tainted public domain documents" smells just as bad as it sounds.

You miss the point totally. During Office 97 and 2003 hey day security was not a concern. Starting with 2007 they made it more secure and added a LOT more features. They changed file format too. I like the extra whistles and bells on 2007 and 2010 especially in Outlook. Your are pretty naive if you think tainted documents is a idle threat. I have seen it happen and its not pretty.

I've always run it with scripts disabled only because it didn't want "something" happening I didn't know about whether it was "malicious" or not.

Again very naive if you think it is that easy to be safe with a old OS. 

I 'm not that concerned about office 2003, since my Office 97 still runs fine on my XP machine Smiley

Man you are in stone age.

Naive behavior is to depend on the OS to "keep you safe".

I use technology to my advantage every day. Depending on the problem, someone gets to decide what technology what the right amount is and whether or not there is an advantage to scrapping what presently works and fulfills my objectives.  And that person is the same guy I see in the mirror every day. No one else.
What matters in the end is me getting to do what I want. Yes, my world is a pretty nice place. For me. 
I am a very bad consumer.
I like what I like and I stick with it until I decide do do something else.


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W8JX
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Posts: 6643




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« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2014, 04:11:41 AM »


Naive behavior is to depend on the OS to "keep you safe".


Actually not. While you need to use some common sense you need a OS that is actively being updated/secured to meet threats that you cannot even begin to predict. There is also hardware changes it CPU to block againt certain boot level threat that XP was never designed to work with. Also with new OS (8x) the GUI opens new possibilities in programing.  XP had a good run but is day is long past.
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You can embrace new computer/tablet technology and change with it or cling to old fall far behind....
G8YMW
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Posts: 267




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« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2014, 09:11:01 AM »

Quote

 

UX designer for Microsoft here.

 

I want to talk about why we chose Metro as the default instead of the desktop, and why this is good in the long run - especially for power users.

...but not in the way you might think.

 

At this point you're probably expecting me to say that it's designed for keyboard execution, or some thing about improved time trials for launching programs, or some other way of me trying to convince you that Metro is actually useful. I've talked about those in the past extensively on reddit, but for this discussion let's throw that all out the window. For this discussion, assume that Metro is s*** for power users (even if you don't believe it to be).

 

Now that we're on common ground, let's dive into the rabbit hole. Metro is a content consumption space. It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It's designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It's simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily. That is what Metro is. It is the antithesis of a power user. A power user is a content creator. They have multiple things open on multiple monitors - sometimes with multiple virtual machines with their own nested levels of complexity.

 

"But wait," you're thinking, "You said Metro is good for power users, yet now you're saying it's the worst for them, what gives?"

 

Before Windows 8 and Metro came along, power users and casual users - the content creators and the content consumers - had to share the same space. It was like a rented tuxedo coat - something that somewhat fit a wide variety of people. It wasn't tailored, because any aggressive tailoring would make it fit one person great, but would have others pulling at the buttons. Whatever feature we wanted to add into Windows, it had to be something that was simple enough for casual users to not get confused with, but also not dumbed down enough to be useless to power users. Many, MANY features got cut because of this.

 

A great example is multiple desktops. This has been something that power users have been asking for for over a decade now. OSX has it, Linux has it, even OS/2 Warp has it. But Windows doesn't. The reason for this is because every time we try and add it to the desktop, we run user tests; and every time we find that the casual users - a much larger part of our demographic than Apple's or Linux's - get confused by it. So the proposal gets cut and power users suffer.

 

Our hands were bound, and our users were annoyed with their rented jackets. So what did we do? We separated the users into two groups. Casual and Power. We made two separate playgrounds for them. All the casual users would have their own new and shiny place to look at pictures of cats - Metro. The power users would then have free reign over their native domain - the desktop.

 

So why make Metro the default? And why was there no way to boot to desktop in Windows 8.0?

 

The short answer is because casual users don't go exploring. If we made desktop the default as it has always been, and included a nice little start menu that felt like home, the casual users would never have migrated to their land of milk and honey. They would still occupy the desktop just as they always had, and we would have been stuck in square one. So we forced it upon them. We drove them to it with goads in their sides. In 8.1, we softened the points on the goads by giving users an option to boot directly to desktop.

 

Now that the casual users are aware of their new pasture, we can start tailoring. It will be a while before the power users start seeing the benefits of this (that's why I said they'd benefit in the long run). Right now we still have a lot of work to do on making Metro seem tasty for those casual users, and that's going to divert our attention for a while. But once it's purring along smoothly, we'll start making the desktop more advanced. We'll add things that we couldn't before. Things will be faster, more advanced, and craftier than they have in the past - and that's why Metro is good for power users.

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73 de Tony
Sent by WW2 Royal Navy signal lamp
KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 472




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« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2014, 02:46:54 PM »


 

UX designer for Microsoft here.

 

I want to talk about why we chose Metro as the default instead of the desktop, and why this is good in the long run - especially for power users.

...but not in the way you might think.

 

At this point you're probably expecting me to say that it's designed for keyboard execution, or some thing about improved time trials for launching programs, or some other way of me trying to convince you that Metro is actually useful. I've talked about those in the past extensively on reddit, but for this discussion let's throw that all out the window. For this discussion, assume that Metro is s*** for power users (even if you don't believe it to be).

 

Now that we're on common ground, let's dive into the rabbit hole. Metro is a content consumption space. It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It's designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It's simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily. That is what Metro is. It is the antithesis of a power user. A power user is a content creator. They have multiple things open on multiple monitors - sometimes with multiple virtual machines with their own nested levels of complexity.

 

"But wait," you're thinking, "You said Metro is good for power users, yet now you're saying it's the worst for them, what gives?"

 

Before Windows 8 and Metro came along, power users and casual users - the content creators and the content consumers - had to share the same space. It was like a rented tuxedo coat - something that somewhat fit a wide variety of people. It wasn't tailored, because any aggressive tailoring would make it fit one person great, but would have others pulling at the buttons. Whatever feature we wanted to add into Windows, it had to be something that was simple enough for casual users to not get confused with, but also not dumbed down enough to be useless to power users. Many, MANY features got cut because of this.

 

A great example is multiple desktops. This has been something that power users have been asking for for over a decade now. OSX has it, Linux has it, even OS/2 Warp has it. But Windows doesn't. The reason for this is because every time we try and add it to the desktop, we run user tests; and every time we find that the casual users - a much larger part of our demographic than Apple's or Linux's - get confused by it. So the proposal gets cut and power users suffer.

 

Our hands were bound, and our users were annoyed with their rented jackets. So what did we do? We separated the users into two groups. Casual and Power. We made two separate playgrounds for them. All the casual users would have their own new and shiny place to look at pictures of cats - Metro. The power users would then have free reign over their native domain - the desktop.

 

So why make Metro the default? And why was there no way to boot to desktop in Windows 8.0?

 

The short answer is because casual users don't go exploring. If we made desktop the default as it has always been, and included a nice little start menu that felt like home, the casual users would never have migrated to their land of milk and honey. They would still occupy the desktop just as they always had, and we would have been stuck in square one. So we forced it upon them. We drove them to it with goads in their sides. In 8.1, we softened the points on the goads by giving users an option to boot directly to desktop.

 

Now that the casual users are aware of their new pasture, we can start tailoring. It will be a while before the power users start seeing the benefits of this (that's why I said they'd benefit in the long run). Right now we still have a lot of work to do on making Metro seem tasty for those casual users, and that's going to divert our attention for a while. But once it's purring along smoothly, we'll start making the desktop more advanced. We'll add things that we couldn't before. Things will be faster, more advanced, and craftier than they have in the past - and that's why Metro is good for power users.

So your advice is "wait and see" which is classic Microsoft advice.  People are tired of this game.  The world is moving on - Grandma's happier with her iPad and the power users like Unix of one stripe or another.  The office worker switched to OpenOffice because that silly ribbon was completely unnecessary and confused her.  The engineer's specialized hardware doesn't have a driver for anything newer than XP.  While Windows 8 continues to be the default OS on new computers, and will of course show some progress there, the most popular option on a new Dell is not more RAM or storage, it's the downgrade (really an upgrade) from Windows 8 to Windows 7.

We all know the real reason for Metro anyway.  MS sees Apple selling billions of software a quarter from the App Store, and thought (in classic MS form) "we should rip this idea off."  The problem is that many Windows users are trapped into the platform by their legacy software.  You can't just stop supporting Win32 without weaning these people off their Win32 apps, so you shove this crap called Metro into their faces.  It is meant to get them used not to Metro, which as you admit, is irrelevant and will be constantly changed around anyway, but used to the idea that they will now be in a MS store ecosystem.

You won't believe me when I tell you that the day you get rid of legacy support and force all users to get all their software from the MS store, is the day that Windows will take an arrow to the knee, but it's true.

Look at OS X.  It has a bunch of very happy users (and more each year) and the UI has barely changed in over 10 years.  People know how to use it and Apple is not going to do anything drastic to piss them off.  Now look at Windows 8 and tell me why in the hell the UI decisions were made without regard to the experience that users have built up over the decades.  Hot corners, stuff popping out at you, and hell even just shutting down the machine is a Herculean effort.

No, people are not content to just wait and see if it gets better.  We have stuff to do, and we will all find platforms that let us do it better than Windows 8.
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NN4RH
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Posts: 335




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« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2014, 02:52:39 PM »

Quote
Also with new OS (8x) the GUI opens new possibilities in programing.

And new possibilities for security problems, no doubt.
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W8JX
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Posts: 6643




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« Reply #80 on: June 16, 2014, 02:59:29 PM »

Quote
Also with new OS (8x) the GUI opens new possibilities in programing.

And new possibilities for security problems, no doubt.

With each revision MS raises security bar. The secure boot option that is starting with 8 is not exactly for reason some think. The main reason is to prevent a hijack boot of system which also effects dual boot.
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KE7TMA
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Posts: 472




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« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2014, 04:55:36 PM »

Quote
Also with new OS (8x) the GUI opens new possibilities in programing.

And new possibilities for security problems, no doubt.

With each revision MS raises security bar. The secure boot option that is starting with 8 is not exactly for reason some think. The main reason is to prevent a hijack boot of system which also effects dual boot.

It seems more likely that "secure boot" is there to eventually prevent people from using alternate OS's.

In any event, there have been LOADS of critical vulnerabilities in Win 8 since it came out.  It does not appear that MS has shown us a legitimate concern for security yet.

I also think that your assertion that Metro offers new programming possibilities is questionable at best.  I'm sure that you can tell me exactly how, though.  While you are at it, please describe what, exactly, one can accomplish in Windows 8 that one could not do with XP.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6061




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« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2014, 05:31:06 PM »

RE: KE7TMA and his 'explanation'

Windows 8 forced the metro interface on us, period.  We weren't given a choice--and it's only because of the outcry that Win 8.1 came out so fast.

It's irrelevant now anyway, Microsoft shot themselves in the foot, other operating systems are gaining users--and those users are happier now that Windows (to them) is history.  Watch out for those other OSes, because if Microsoft doesn't give the people what they want with Windows 9, they'll go the same way Kodak and Polaroid went--almost into oblivion.
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KF6QEX
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Posts: 614




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« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2014, 06:15:47 PM »

Quote
I also think that your assertion that Metro offers new programming possibilities is questionable at best.  I'm sure that you can tell me exactly how, though.  While you are at it, please describe what, exactly, one can accomplish in Windows 8 that one could not do with XP.

Haven't you been paying attention?
Windows XP allowed sloppy code. (Somehow it's the OS's responsibillity to keep the programmer in check. Some people expect the compiler to do that.)

Whatta matta wit you?

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K5UNX
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Posts: 328


WWW

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« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2014, 06:21:27 PM »

So your advice is "wait and see" which is classic Microsoft advice.  People are tired of this game.  The world is moving on - Grandma's happier with her iPad and the power users like Unix of one stripe or another.  The office worker switched to OpenOffice because that silly ribbon was completely unnecessary and confused her.  The engineer's specialized hardware doesn't have a driver for anything newer than XP.  While Windows 8 continues to be the default OS on new computers, and will of course show some progress there, the most popular option on a new Dell is not more RAM or storage, it's the downgrade (really an upgrade) from Windows 8 to Windows 7.

We all know the real reason for Metro anyway.  MS sees Apple selling billions of software a quarter from the App Store, and thought (in classic MS form) "we should rip this idea off."  The problem is that many Windows users are trapped into the platform by their legacy software.  You can't just stop supporting Win32 without weaning these people off their Win32 apps, so you shove this crap called Metro into their faces.  It is meant to get them used not to Metro, which as you admit, is irrelevant and will be constantly changed around anyway, but used to the idea that they will now be in a MS store ecosystem.

You won't believe me when I tell you that the day you get rid of legacy support and force all users to get all their software from the MS store, is the day that Windows will take an arrow to the knee, but it's true.

Look at OS X.  It has a bunch of very happy users (and more each year) and the UI has barely changed in over 10 years.  People know how to use it and Apple is not going to do anything drastic to piss them off.  Now look at Windows 8 and tell me why in the hell the UI decisions were made without regard to the experience that users have built up over the decades.  Hot corners, stuff popping out at you, and hell even just shutting down the machine is a Herculean effort.

No, people are not content to just wait and see if it gets better.  We have stuff to do, and we will all find platforms that let us do it better than Windows 8.

Office workers have not switched to OpenOffice . . that might happen in a few places but not many.

Metro didn't go away in 8.1. . . It gave you the option of booting to the desktop first rather than the start screen. And gave you a start button that takes you to the tiled start screen. So minor changes is all. Metro is still there.

You mention OSX with the UI changing? While a lot of the point/click UI options don't change much. Apple is much more aggressive about weeding out old hardware and NOT supporting old hardware with new operating system releases. I have a 2010 Mac and while still supported in the new OS, i wouldn't be surprised when it's no longer supported in a new OS release. You just don't hear about users whining. Apple users are much more accepting of new operating system releases. More OSX users are on the current release as a percentage than Windows users.  

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W8JX
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« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2014, 06:54:10 PM »

Office workers have not switched to OpenOffice . . that might happen in a few places but not many.

I do not see this changing either.  Open Office has lost steam.

Metro didn't go away in 8.1. . . It gave you the option of booting to the desktop first rather than the start screen. And gave you a start button that takes you to the tiled start screen. So minor changes is all. Metro is still there.

And Metro is not going away...

You mention OSX with the UI changing? While a lot of the point/click UI options don't change much. Apple is much more aggressive about weeding out old hardware and NOT supporting old hardware with new operating system releases. I have a 2010 Mac and while still supported in the new OS, i wouldn't be surprised when it's no longer supported in a new OS release. You just don't hear about users whining. Apple users are much more accepting of new operating system releases. More OSX users are on the current release as a percentage than Windows users.  

Apple always had better Koolaid than MS for snookering users. 
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You can embrace new computer/tablet technology and change with it or cling to old fall far behind....
KE7TMA
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Posts: 472




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« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2014, 01:43:51 PM »

Quote
Of course not, you can't do anything with 8 that you couldn't do with XP.

there is a lot of software that used to run on XP, - that won't run under win_8.
- M$O 2003 is just one, & there are others, as XP had a simply huge software list.

I guess we should go back to MS DOS?  As I have said before XP supported sloppy 16/32bit code and 8 does not. As far as MS Office 2003, the reason it does not run is it is blocked because it is not secure and stopped getting updates long ago. Myself I like moving forward and not clinging to outdated software and hardware.

There is nothing inherently sloppy about 16 or 32 bit code.  Why would you make such an obviously untrue statement, especially here where people will know better than to believe you?

Feel free to buy the newest garbage from MS if it makes you feel important, but many of us have better things to do.
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G8YMW
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Posts: 267




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« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2014, 03:20:00 PM »

Microsoft were warned about Metro in the early betas of Windows 8 but chose not to listen and are paying the price now.
Apple couldn't run an integrated interface for tablets and desktops.
Canocial have been knocked off the top spot  for Linux doing the same thing with Unity

Microsoft have NOT improved security apart from dumbing the O/S down with this Playskool interface
The security was left to third parties however most of the security issues are down to Java which is platform independent and ActiveX which is Internet explorer

For more information go to www.msfn.org,
General Discussion
Windows 8 Deeper Impressions

My xyl has had a Windows 8 laptop hybrid for two months now, she is still on about ripping Windows 8 out and loading Win 7 and Linux instead (She has used Windows from 3.11, using all versions thereafter apart from Vista which she passed on. Before PCs she was pretty hot with a BBC B)
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73 de Tony
Sent by WW2 Royal Navy signal lamp
W8JX
Member

Posts: 6643




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« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2014, 04:14:43 PM »


There is nothing inherently sloppy about 16 or 32 bit code.  Why would you make such an obviously untrue statement, especially here where people will know better than to believe you?



Well 16 bit code is long dead. I died with Win9x. As far as sloppy code, the reason some old program do not run on 7 or 8 is because the code is indeed sloppy and not written properly. I have a Email client that was written 11 years ago that still works with even 8.1 because it was written properly.
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You can embrace new computer/tablet technology and change with it or cling to old fall far behind....
KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 472




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« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2014, 04:37:06 PM »


There is nothing inherently sloppy about 16 or 32 bit code.  Why would you make such an obviously untrue statement, especially here where people will know better than to believe you?



Well 16 bit code is long dead. I died with Win9x. As far as sloppy code, the reason some old program do not run on 7 or 8 is because the code is indeed sloppy and not written properly. I have a Email client that was written 11 years ago that still works with even 8.1 because it was written properly.

It has nothing to do with sloppy coding and everything to do with MS's arbitrary decisions.
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