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Author Topic: HOA misunderstandings  (Read 5724 times)
KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 441




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2014, 12:28:08 PM »

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I've done both (Internal, and External mounted antennas), and I know that external antennas are optimal.

And that is as far as you need to go. 

You're correct.  While not optimal, internal antennas are an open option to all operators.

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They are not required.

Depending on a person's situation, the bands they are working, structural issues, the types of nets they are getting on, etc.  yes, they can be, especially to be any kind of effective.  But, if you want to be limited to the same capabilities as an FRS/GMRS radio, be my guest, but quit telling people what they do or do not need. 

I think you need to study up on antenna designs for small spaces.  ARRL has a fantastic book to get you started.

You do not NEED an external antenna.  You WANT one.  Huge difference.

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However, you can have multiple antennas, that do a particular job well.

And they usually take up a good amount of space. 

All antennas take up space.  Your point?

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Now, that being said, the best piece of advice for operators who are really into things that require large, exterior antennas is the following:
* Move to a non-HOA home

Not an option for most operators, so please quit giving out that completely unhelpful, condescending, and quite frankly stupid advice. 

It isn't?  I thought anyone can sell their property and move at any point in time?  Is there a law requiring some operators to never move?  I might have missed it.

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Bottom line.  If various aspects of this hobby are not important enough for you to move, I fail to see what the complaint is then

Key phrase there is "I fail to see" and it is quite clear that you refuse to.  Your opinion is great, FOR YOU.  You have made your position known repeatedly.  Fine, we acknowledge your opinion and we disagree.  NOW BE DONE WITH IT AND GIVE IT A REST!

It's not an opinion here, it's a fact:  There is nothing presented to demonstrate why one this law needs to pass, since people apparently have gotten what the desire already?
Logged
KD0SFY
Member

Posts: 300




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2014, 01:05:37 PM »



You're correct.  While not optimal, internal antennas are an open option to all operators.

They are a consideration.  They may or may not be a valid option.


Quote
I think you need to study up on antenna designs for small spaces.  ARRL has a fantastic book to get you started.

I have ARRL books going back at least 30 years and have been working with all sorts of antennas for at least that long.  

While you might be able to hit a few stations with such antennas, they can't hit as many stations as full-size external antennas and that can be the difference between getting the message and not getting the message.  If small indoor antennas were so great, no one would bother putting up towers.  


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You do not NEED an external antenna.  You WANT one.  Huge difference.

You don't NEED to be a ham radio operator or to participate in emergency comms.  You WANT to.  So by your logic, you might as well just throw away your radio.  Again, the external antenna can make the difference of getting the contact and message or not getting it.  If someone up in the mountains is having an emergency and only has a QRP rig, your indoor compromise antenna may not be sufficient to pick him up whereas my nice full-size outdoor antenna may hear him quite nicely.  

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All antennas take up space.  Your point?


That more antennas take up more space, especially when they start de-tuning each other and attics are only so big.  So the next option is going to be putting them outside.  

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Now, that being said, the best piece of advice for operators who are really into things that require large, exterior antennas is the following:
* Move to a non-HOA home

Not an option for most operators, so please quit giving out that completely unhelpful, condescending, and quite frankly stupid advice.  

It isn't?  I thought anyone can sell their property and move at any point in time?  Is there a law requiring some operators to never move?  I might have missed it.



Financially and physically, it may not be feasible.  If you have enough money, knock yourself out, but quit telling the rest of us what we should be doing.  See the pinned statement at the top of the category labeled "It's unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like."

Continue down this path and I will ask that you be booted.



Quote

It's not an opinion here, it's a fact:  There is nothing presented to demonstrate why one this law needs to pass, since people apparently have gotten what the desire already?

No, it is an opinion, one you have stated ad nauseum.  
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 01:09:57 PM by KD0SFY » Logged
KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 441




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2014, 01:47:35 PM »



You're correct.  While not optimal, internal antennas are an open option to all operators.

They are a consideration.  They may or may not be a valid option.

They are always valid options.  Again, show me the property, and I'll come up with an antenna that works.

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I think you need to study up on antenna designs for small spaces.  ARRL has a fantastic book to get you started.

I have ARRL books going back at least 30 years and have been working with all sorts of antennas for at least that long.  

Did you see the "Antennas for Small Spaces" book?  It's a very good read.

Quote
While you might be able to hit a few stations with such antennas, they can't hit as many stations as full-size external antennas and that can be the difference between getting the message and not getting the message.  If small indoor antennas were so great, no one would bother putting up towers.  

I never said attic/internal antennas were the best you can get.  I said they work.  Many hams use them with great success.  Hams work with what they have, and don't cry when they can't get the very best every time.

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You do not NEED an external antenna.  You WANT one.  Huge difference.

You don't NEED to be a ham radio operator or to participate in emergency comms.  You WANT to.  So by your logic, you might as well just throw away your radio.  Again, the external antenna can make the difference of getting the contact and message or not getting it.  If someone up in the mountains is having an emergency and only has a QRP rig, your indoor compromise antenna may not be sufficient to pick him up whereas my nice full-size outdoor antenna may hear him quite nicely.  

You're right!  I don't NEED to be a ham.  I don't NEED to participate in emergency comms.  I CHOOSE to WANT to do things like that.  And, because I CHOSE those parts of the hobby, I CHOSE a home that accommodates.

If someone is in the mountains, and is having an emergency, I'd suggest they activate their EIPRB.  Ham radio spectrum is not an emergency service.  Only a fool would put his life on the gamble he might be able to hit an amateur operator.

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All antennas take up space.  Your point?


That more antennas take up more space, especially when they start de-tuning each other and attics are only so big.  So the next option is going to be putting them outside.  

Of course they de-tune each other.  Proper station engineering is required.  You know you can Re-tune antennas, right?  There's these things called "tuners", also known as "matching systems" that assist with that as well.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Now, that being said, the best piece of advice for operators who are really into things that require large, exterior antennas is the following:
* Move to a non-HOA home

Not an option for most operators, so please quit giving out that completely unhelpful, condescending, and quite frankly stupid advice.  

It isn't?  I thought anyone can sell their property and move at any point in time?  Is there a law requiring some operators to never move?  I might have missed it.

Financially and physically, it may not be feasible.  If you have enough money, knock yourself out, but quit telling the rest of us what we should be doing.  See the pinned statement at the top of the category labeled "It's unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like."

Then, ham radio must not be that important to the person.  Regardless of what the pinned statement at the top says, it's EXTREMELY helpful to warn hams to avoid HOA's, and to encourage hams who are in HOA's to work with what they can, and if the hobby becomes important enough, to move to where they can freely enjoy their hobby, instead of getting themselves mired in another HOA, with pipe dreams of being able to change it.

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Continue down this path and I will ask that you be booted.

I get it.  You don't like hearing the truth.

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It's not an opinion here, it's a fact:  There is nothing presented to demonstrate why one this law needs to pass, since people apparently have gotten what the desire already?

No, it is an opinion, one you have stated ad nauseum.  

No, it's a fact.  People in HOA's, who don't want to move, got exactly the bargain they wanted.  If they didn't get what they wanted, then they wouldn't have signed the deed at closing.
Logged
W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2014, 08:32:21 PM »

JX: You are mistaken there. Even though the CC&Rs are usually set up by the developer they usually allow for an HOA to assume responsibility after there are a sufficient number of homes purchased in the development. At that point the HOAs (usually via a majority vote) do indeed have the ability to add, remove, or modify most of the rules.

You can call everything with a HOA a "gated community" if you want but as far as most people are concerned if it doesn't have a gate with a guard or a card access system then it's NOT a gated community.

Some states have enacted laws that allow the modification of the CC&Rs by a vote of the owners of the properties subject to the CC&Rs. Colorado is one such state. I don't remember what percentage of the homeowners it takes to make the change but it is something like 2/3s. HOWEVER, the vast majority of jurisdictions do not have such statutes. In that case it takes exactly 100% of the homeowners to agree. Just try to get 100% of any group to agree to anything.
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 286




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2014, 04:35:01 AM »

Some states have enacted laws that allow the modification of the CC&Rs by a vote of the owners of the properties subject to the CC&Rs. Colorado is one such state. I don't remember what percentage of the homeowners it takes to make the change but it is something like 2/3s. HOWEVER, the vast majority of jurisdictions do not have such statutes. In that case it takes exactly 100% of the homeowners to agree. Just try to get 100% of any group to agree to anything.

Just try to get 100% of a HOA/COA to vote.
Logged

73,
Rick KK4GGL
N1DVJ
Member

Posts: 478




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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2014, 09:28:58 AM »

Continue down this path and I will ask that you be booted.
You know, even with the arguments going on here, I felt a lot of ideas were exchanged, even if it didn't seem like stances were affected.  At least 'other' parties were seeing both sides.

But this...  I'm sorry.  This is infantile
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K2GWK
Member

Posts: 462


WWW

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2014, 06:35:34 PM »

Continue down this path and I will ask that you be booted.
You know, even with the arguments going on here, I felt a lot of ideas were exchanged, even if it didn't seem like stances were affected.  At least 'other' parties were seeing both sides.

But this...  I'm sorry.  This is infantile

I agree! If this goes through those who do not live in areas that have an HOA or CCR's will no longer have the feeling that they are superior to the hams that do. I guess loosing that feeling of superiority to some that is a fate worse than death. It's the old mine is bigger than yours.
Logged

KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 441




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2014, 08:00:24 AM »

Continue down this path and I will ask that you be booted.
You know, even with the arguments going on here, I felt a lot of ideas were exchanged, even if it didn't seem like stances were affected.  At least 'other' parties were seeing both sides.

But this...  I'm sorry.  This is infantile

I agree! If this goes through those who do not live in areas that have an HOA or CCR's will no longer have the feeling that they are superior to the hams that do. I guess loosing that feeling of superiority to some that is a fate worse than death. It's the old mine is bigger than yours.

It's nothing about feeling "superior"...  It's a matter of principle:  Should the federal government intervene in private contractual matters, to benefits a hobby?

ie, Should the federal government nullify any HOA rules that prohibit launching model rockets?  Flying quadcopters?  Dirt track racing?  All hobbies.
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2014, 08:48:44 AM »



It's nothing about feeling "superior"... 
[/quote]

Oh, sure it is... you got yours, there's no reason anyone else can't do what you did...

It's a matter of principle:  Should the federal government intervene in private contractual matters, to benefits a hobby?

Well, yes... repeat after me... It's more than just a hobby. It's more than just a hobby...

ie, Should the federal government nullify any HOA rules that prohibit launching model rockets?
... let's see... rocket engine misfires, causes fire... hmmmmm ....

  Flying quadcopters?

I think you'll find there are rules regarding flying of remote controlled vehicles (now being called drones), and more are being discussed.

  Dirt track racing? 

it probably doesn't Federal intervention, but I don't think I'd want people doing dirt bike donuts in the park paid for by maintenance fees.

All hobbies.


Do any of those hobbies, as listed in Federal rule, authorized by Federal law, have anything to do with saving lives, protecting property, expanding the theory regarding their activities, and helping promote International goodwill?
Logged

73,
Rick KK4GGL
K1ZJH
Member

Posts: 984




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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2014, 07:00:21 AM »

Indoor transmitting antennas shouldn't even be considered as a "solution." 

It would be extremely difficult to calculate the RF field measurements to comply with Federal RF radiation limits. (see below.)

Coupling to house wiring: power, lights, TV cables, telephone lines, etc. would be impossible to avoid. (see above)

The degree of RF interference to the household and to nearby neighbors could be greatly increased compared to a properly installed outdoor antenna.

Licensed hams shouldn't be forced into using deceptive measures to circumvent draconian regulations.

Pete
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 5792




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2014, 09:06:11 AM »

Indoor transmitting antennas shouldn't even be considered as a "solution." 

It would be extremely difficult to calculate the RF field measurements to comply with Federal RF radiation limits. (see below.)

Coupling to house wiring: power, lights, TV cables, telephone lines, etc. would be impossible to avoid. (see above)

The degree of RF interference to the household and to nearby neighbors could be greatly increased compared to a properly installed outdoor antenna.

Licensed hams shouldn't be forced into using deceptive measures to circumvent draconian regulations.

Pete

I used a indoor attic antenna in a condo in Montana in early 90's and I did pretty good all thing considered. When you make the "choice" to live in a Condo you have to make compromises. If you do not want to make them do not buy a condo. As bad as you might want a outside antenna there will be those that do not want it there. One reason I would never live in a Condo long term because of restrictions.
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K1ZJH
Member

Posts: 984




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2014, 09:13:34 AM »

Indoor transmitting antennas shouldn't even be considered as a "solution." 

It would be extremely difficult to calculate the RF field measurements to comply with Federal RF radiation limits. (see below.)

Coupling to house wiring: power, lights, TV cables, telephone lines, etc. would be impossible to avoid. (see above)

The degree of RF interference to the household and to nearby neighbors could be greatly increased compared to a properly installed outdoor antenna.

Licensed hams shouldn't be forced into using deceptive measures to circumvent draconian regulations.

Pete

I used a indoor attic antenna in a condo in Montana in early 90's and I did pretty good all thing considered. When you make the "choice" to live in a Condo you have to make compromises. If you do not want to make them do not buy a condo. As bad as you might want a outside antenna there will be those that do not want it there. One reason I would never live in a Condo long term because of restrictions.

I understand what you are saying. Living in a condo would be my last choice... but people get older, and often a spouse will fail before another, and something has to give. Yard work or house upkeep becomes too much for one partner or another. Condo living has its benefits, but all too often the rules are far too restrictive based on fear and misinformation. Sometimes folks are forced into making decisions that they don't really have much control over. It is easy to tell someone to avoid condo living, and suggesting they need to give up their lifetime hobbies without any regard for what could be acceptable reasonable accommodation that would be acceptable for all parties concerned. It easy for healthy, well healed individuals comment that they can afford to live in less restrictive areas, but that isn't always an option for their aging fellow hams.

I can guarantee that using an indoor antenna in a shared condo duplex will generate far more ill will than an external and well disguised antenna that is properly decoupled from the house wiring.

Pete
Pete
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 286




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2014, 09:22:11 AM »

I used a indoor attic antenna in a condo in Montana in early 90's and I did pretty good all thing considered. When you make the "choice" to live in a Condo you have to make compromises. If you do not want to make them do not buy a condo. As bad as you might want a outside antenna there will be those that do not want it there. One reason I would never live in a Condo long term because of restrictions.

Give me a couple $K and I'll leave mine.
Logged

73,
Rick KK4GGL
KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 441




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2014, 01:06:19 PM »

Indoor transmitting antennas shouldn't even be considered as a "solution." 

It would be extremely difficult to calculate the RF field measurements to comply with Federal RF radiation limits. (see below.)

Coupling to house wiring: power, lights, TV cables, telephone lines, etc. would be impossible to avoid. (see above)

The degree of RF interference to the household and to nearby neighbors could be greatly increased compared to a properly installed outdoor antenna.

Licensed hams shouldn't be forced into using deceptive measures to circumvent draconian regulations.

Pete

I used a indoor attic antenna in a condo in Montana in early 90's and I did pretty good all thing considered. When you make the "choice" to live in a Condo you have to make compromises. If you do not want to make them do not buy a condo. As bad as you might want a outside antenna there will be those that do not want it there. One reason I would never live in a Condo long term because of restrictions.

I understand what you are saying. Living in a condo would be my last choice... but people get older, and often a spouse will fail before another, and something has to give. Yard work or house upkeep becomes too much for one partner or another. Condo living has its benefits, but all too often the rules are far too restrictive based on fear and misinformation. Sometimes folks are forced into making decisions that they don't really have much control over. It is easy to tell someone to avoid condo living, and suggesting they need to give up their lifetime hobbies without any regard for what could be acceptable reasonable accommodation that would be acceptable for all parties concerned. It easy for healthy, well healed individuals comment that they can afford to live in less restrictive areas, but that isn't always an option for their aging fellow hams.

I can guarantee that using an indoor antenna in a shared condo duplex will generate far more ill will than an external and well disguised antenna that is properly decoupled from the house wiring.

Pete
Pete

Nobody is forced into anywhere they are living, unless they are victims of human trafficking.
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 286




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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2014, 01:09:01 PM »

Nobody is forced into anywhere they are living, unless they are victims of human trafficking.

... in your opinion...
Logged

73,
Rick KK4GGL
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