eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: N1RND on April 02, 2015, 04:25:07 PM



Title: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N1RND on April 02, 2015, 04:25:07 PM
Whats wrong with some people today?  I came home from work and turned on the rig and people are out of control.  I started on 20 meters and heard all kinds of foolish malicious behavior, not one but a few different freqs.
I went down to 40 and heard more of the same!  I also noticed that people on the road today were worse than usual.  My wife told me people that people at work have been ruder than usual.

I can deal with )#@%^&)%^# people in ordinary life but when it transcends into what is suppose (at least was)  a "gentlemans" hobby it aggravates me.

I dont know what else to say.  I love the hobby and won't give it up but today was a bad experience.  I have a demanding job and its nice to come home turn the rig on, work some dx, rag chew with a stateside and unwind.

The more I meet people, the more I love my dog.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N4UM on April 02, 2015, 04:47:36 PM
A "gentleman" is defined by some as "a man who never offends anyone unless he intends to."   Perhaps what you are hearing is due to an increase in the number of gentlemen who are deliberately, rather than inadvertently or accidentally attempting to offend... perhaps as a way of attracting attention or compensating for certain self-perceived inequities in their penis size. 

I've never thought of ham radio as a "gentleman's" hobby any more than golf, stamp collecting, coon hunting, tennis or polo. 

Dogs are good.  Next time you feel this way about radio... turn the rig off, settle down with a nice glass of scotch and give your dogs ears a good scratch.  You'll both feel better!  ;D


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K9MHZ on April 03, 2015, 04:06:17 AM
I don't know if there's some Dr. Phil in this or not, but I'll take a stab.

Years ago, most people built something, and some even built everything in their stations.  Getting on the air was a thrill, and you befriended people with whom you had similar interests and experiences.  It was almost a must, as you needed the mutual support just to keep things running.  Today, rigs are so advanced and comparatively cheap, the only steps are to take and pass a very simple exam, go to HRO with some plastic, and come home with a new piece of reliable gear that's phenomenally designed and manufactured.  Things come very easy and cheap today, and it's everywhere. 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N1RND on April 03, 2015, 06:50:58 AM
.  
Dogs are good.  Next time you feel this way about radio... turn the rig off, settle down with a nice glass of scotch and give your dogs ears a good scratch.  You'll both feel better!  ;D
[/quote]
That's basically what I did, except it was beer while watching the Bruins game.  At least you expect fighting in hockey
K9MHZ, I know exactly what you're saying.  since it has become easier to be a ham alot of operators don't take it serious enough.
I know a guy that is an 11 meter op.He's been into it for a long time and knows a lot about radio.  One day I asked him, "with all your knowledge how come you never got into Ham Radio"?
His reply was, "Ham radio is no fun because your not allowed to swear and talk about crazy stuff".
I had to give him some credit for not getting licensed.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 03, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
Whats wrong with some people today?  I came home from work and turned on the rig and people are out of control.  I started on 20 meters and heard all kinds of foolish malicious behavior, not one but a few different freqs.
I went down to 40 and heard more of the same!  I also noticed that people on the road today were worse than usual.  My wife told me people that people at work have been ruder than usual.

I can deal with )#@%^&)%^# people in ordinary life but when it transcends into what is suppose (at least was)  a "gentlemans" hobby it aggravates me.

I dont know what else to say.  I love the hobby and won't give it up but today was a bad experience.  I have a demanding job and its nice to come home turn the rig on, work some dx, rag chew with a stateside and unwind.

The more I meet people, the more I love my dog.

Ever since they made it very easy to get a ticket there was been a degradation of the hobby. Many ex CBers are now hams but brought the mindset with it. It is not the same as it was 46 years ago when I started and I fear the future holds even more degradation. I would say that 40 is maybe the least effected band and 20 the worst.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: SOFAR on April 03, 2015, 07:46:30 AM
.  
Dogs are good.  Next time you feel this way about radio... turn the rig off, settle down with a nice glass of scotch and give your dogs ears a good scratch.  You'll both feel better!  ;D
That's basically what I did, except it was beer while watching the Bruins game.  At least you expect fighting in hockey
K9MHZ, I know exactly what you're saying.  since it has become easier to be a ham alot of operators don't take it serious enough.
I know a guy that is an 11 meter op.He's been into it for a long time and knows a lot about radio.  One day I asked him, "with all your knowledge how come you never got into Ham Radio"?
His reply was, "Ham radio is no fun because your not allowed to swear and talk about crazy stuff".
I had to give him some credit for not getting licensed.

[/quote]

Ah yes, alcohol, another sedentary pastime. I can't help but notice that most hams are obese. Maybe actually take the dog for a walk? He/she will also enjoy the change of pace.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 03, 2015, 08:54:23 AM
I'm with JX.  I saw the same thing happen to CB.  When CB was 23 channels and the radios were fairly expensive, CB thrived and was in most cases, fun.  Sure there were the same kind of people RND is talking about but they were the minority. 

Then the FCC changed the frequency allocation to 40 channels and the market was flooded with the now obsolete and consequently cheap 23 channel radios.  It seemed that now everyonehad a radio and that's when CB became complete chaos.  Today CB, when compared to what it was in it's "hey-day",  for all practical purposes is DEAD!

I can see the same thing happening to ham radio but at a somewhat slower rate.  But, it is happening and will eventually become chaotic and then as we knew it, die.

Today, HR is money driven.  That's the reason for the present day testing methods.  Keep the hobby alive and make it easier to get licensed to compete with the Internet and cell phones.  Bottom line.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 03, 2015, 09:45:57 AM
I'm with JX.  I saw the same thing happen to CB.  When CB was 23 channels and the radios were fairly expensive, CB thrived and was in most cases, fun.  Sure there were the same kind of people RND is talking about but they were the minority. 

Then the FCC changed the frequency allocation to 40 channels and the market was flooded with the now obsolete and consequently cheap 23 channel radios.  It seemed that now everyonehad a radio and that's when CB became complete chaos.  Today CB, when compared to what it was in it's "hey-day",  for all practical purposes is DEAD!

I can see the same thing happening to ham radio but at a somewhat slower rate.  But, it is happening and will eventually become chaotic and then as we knew it, die.

Today, HR is money driven.  That's the reason for the present day testing methods.  Keep the hobby alive and make it easier to get licensed to compete with the Internet and cell phones.  Bottom line.

Yes it is all about short term profit with no concern about long term effect.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: DL8OV on April 03, 2015, 10:17:48 AM
Dogs are OK but I'm a cat person myself, we're always nice and calm. In your position I would settle back on one of the WARC bands, especially in the CW section, and have a good rag chew with your favorite key in one hand and a drink in the other. Low lighting in the shack helps, most operating nights I'm sitting there in semi darkness listening to the world go by then sending my little signal into the ether.

Hunting DX? With all the jammers and the Kilowatt stations using stacked beams it's too much hard work.

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AA4PB on April 03, 2015, 10:41:37 AM
Personally, I think it has much more to do with society in general than it does with testing standards or the ease of setting up a station. In general, people used to treat each other with much more respect than they do now days. You see it on the highways, on the Internet, in stores - almost anyplace where people interact with each other.  Ham radio is just one more of those places.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 03, 2015, 11:23:43 AM
Personally, I think it has much more to do with society in general than it does with testing standards or the ease of setting up a station. In general, people used to treat each other with much more respect than they do now days. You see it on the highways, on the Internet, in stores - almost anyplace where people interact with each other.  Ham radio is just one more of those places.


While this has some merit, harder tests/requirements weeded some out and made those that made it appreciate it more. Many modern hams would not be hams at all if old requirements were still in place and there would be less traffic on bands. This is a bit harsh but true.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AA4PB on April 03, 2015, 11:45:41 AM
Certainly both have some influence. The reduction in FCC enforcement has an effect too. In the old days most hams would be shacking in their boots if they got a pink slip from the FCC. Apparently the FCC did a lot more monitoring in those days. I knew several that got pink slips for chirpy signals and harmonics.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K6CPO on April 03, 2015, 12:16:08 PM
We're having this discussion AGAIN?


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 03, 2015, 12:41:59 PM
Certainly both have some influence. The reduction in FCC enforcement has an effect too. In the old days most hams would be shacking in their boots if they got a pink slip from the FCC. Apparently the FCC did a lot more monitoring in those days. I knew several that got pink slips for chirpy signals and harmonics.

Its the new way of congress. If you cannot change law you simply defund it so there is no enforcement. More oversite is needed no less.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N1RND on April 03, 2015, 01:09:02 PM
We're having this discussion AGAIN?

I know, I know, look what I started.

What we need is for a meteor to hit the Earth killing off most of mankind and setting us back a thousand years.
Time to start over.

Regarding cats, I have one of those too.
Regarding the obesity thing, I'm skinny and most of the Hams I know are not obese.
 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K7MEM on April 03, 2015, 02:55:30 PM
Regarding cats, I have one of those too.
Regarding the obesity thing, I'm skinny and most of the Hams I know are not obese.

I like dogs. I have four of then and there is never a shortage of bellies and head to rub.

I'm skinny too. But that comes with the territory. I have a small ranch with 6 horses. They dump out about 150 pounds of manure a day and I always get elected to pick it up and move it some where else. It makes for a nice walk around several acres pushing a wheelbarrow in front of me, that gets heavier with every stop.

I mostly listen in the CW and digital portions of the band, so I haven't run into your situation.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N8YX on April 03, 2015, 03:00:09 PM

I mostly listen in the CW and digital portions of the band, so I haven't run into your situation.


And there, friends, is the proverbial elephant in the room.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K7MEM on April 04, 2015, 06:26:51 AM

I mostly listen in the CW and digital portions of the band, so I haven't run into your situation.


And there, friends, is the proverbial elephant in the room.

That may very well be true. I have been licensed, with a gap, since 1965. I have always heard about the terrible manners at the high end of 80, 40, and 20 meters. But in all that time, I have never been inclined to listen in. Ham radio is what you make it.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 04, 2015, 07:16:49 AM

I mostly listen in the CW and digital portions of the band, so I haven't run into your situation.


And there, friends, is the proverbial elephant in the room.

That may very well be true. I have been licensed, with a gap, since 1965. I have always heard about the terrible manners at the high end of 80, 40, and 20 meters. But in all that time, I have never been inclined to listen in. Ham radio is what you make it.


The most "snobby" hams I have heard have been on 80m with 20m being second. They can be quite arrogant. I never had much problem on 40m but rarely get above 7170.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 04, 2015, 08:09:23 AM
...When CB was 23 channels and the radios were fairly expensive, CB thrived and was in most cases, fun.  Sure there were the same kind of people RND is talking about but they were the minority. 

Then the FCC changed the frequency allocation to 40 channels and the market was flooded with the now obsolete and consequently cheap 23 channel radios.  It seemed that now everyonehad a radio and that's when CB became complete chaos.  Today CB, when compared to what it was in it's "hey-day",  for all practical purposes is DEAD!

I can see the same thing happening to ham radio but at a somewhat slower rate.  But, it is happening and will eventually become chaotic and then as we knew it, die.

Today, HR is money driven.  That's the reason for the present day testing methods.  Keep the hobby alive and make it easier to get licensed to compete with the Internet and cell phones.  Bottom line.

When things are in demand, production will increase and costs will drop.  Don't blame the CB craze on cheap, plentiful radios--blame it on popularity.  People were going to get on the air whether or not radios were cheap or they were expensive.

Ham radio isn't only money driven, it's ARRL driven too, but for different reasons.  Trying to keep the hobby alive, for one.  Face it.  If the testing and licensing were to stay at the level they were at, there wouldn't be a tenth of the new hams that there are currently being licensed.  And the kicker is that there would be just as much rudeness and ill mannered behavior on the bands, because easily half of that behavior on the bands now is from long licensed old time hams.   


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N1RND on April 04, 2015, 10:49:08 AM
K1CJS is completely correct!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KG7CSS on April 04, 2015, 11:27:43 AM
I'm with JX.  I saw the same thing happen to CB.  When CB was 23 channels and the radios were fairly expensive, CB thrived and was in most cases, fun.  Sure there were the same kind of people RND is talking about but they were the minority. 

Then the FCC changed the frequency allocation to 40 channels and the market was flooded with the now obsolete and consequently cheap 23 channel radios.  It seemed that now everyonehad a radio and that's when CB became complete chaos.  Today CB, when compared to what it was in it's "hey-day",  for all practical purposes is DEAD!

I can see the same thing happening to ham radio but at a somewhat slower rate.  But, it is happening and will eventually become chaotic and then as we knew it, die.

Today, HR is money driven.  That's the reason for the present day testing methods.  Keep the hobby alive and make it easier to get licensed to compete with the Internet and cell phones.  Bottom line.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc  with a side  of  straw man.

Increasing  the number of channels have nothing to do  with the death  of cb; more likely it is  sunspot activity, cell phones, and  bubble economics of  the CB fad. The same  with ham radio,  I do not believe the  No code requirement is the problem in ham radio.

To me all the nastiness and snobbery seem to part of our human nature. I am part of the anime, science fiction and  furry fandoms, I seen the same  elitism there as in here. Some time I look at this forum and see the same childness and the inability to make a rational argument and stay on topic here  as on 4chan.

Your not helping ranting  like 14 year old , stick to the radio spin the dial and try to be the solution than rating because I just ignore you like 60% of the post here.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 04, 2015, 05:21:53 PM
This has nothing to do with hard or easy testing. It has to do with society in general. Nobody has any values anymore. Have you watched TV lately? Do you see many programs where you don't hear the constant "BEEP BEEP BEEP" of censoring. People don't care anymore. Bad language is common place today, so why wouldn't you expect to hear it on the ham bands. The same reason any DXpedition will attract QRMers who just want to make life miserable for others.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 04, 2015, 06:08:29 PM
This has nothing to do with hard or easy testing.

Not true at all. With easy requirements a lot of CBers moved to ham radio and took attitude with them. With mail order no code ticket that is easy to get there is a lot of operators that would not be there today under old rules. The rules caved to lobbyist for equipment sales for sort term profits with no concern for long term effect. Just like gun lobby. 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 04, 2015, 07:05:49 PM
So if we make the exams 2 or 3 times harder we'll no longer have bad behaver? No cursing, no QRMing. No 14.313.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KD8MJR on April 04, 2015, 07:39:49 PM
Almost every country has removed the code and made the exams easier yet the bad behavior typically comes from just two countries. So No it's not the code, it's the societies in these countries that are the root cause.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 04, 2015, 08:13:07 PM
Wow!  CJS: There is indeed an element of truth in what you say.  However, I was an active part of the CB craze even though at the time I was an Extra Class ham.  

I not only saw what happened to CB when the FCC opened the CB spectrum from 23 to 40 channels but experienced it with a boat load of 23 channel radios that wasn't worth 50% of their initial selling price!  

Along with that change, and I'm talking a time period of less than 3 months, the CB channels was inundated with two kinds of people.  One: They didn't have a clue on anything and Two: A group of people that were obnoxious, couldn't take advice, would "walk on" a conversation and had no interest in assimilating were on the air.  Consequently, it became chaotic and eventually most of the old time CBrs simply dropped it and let the other have it.

Others have mentioned Congress and funding.  This is also true.  It also true that many of the American people, have simply become self centered and think only of themselves.  We read of the almost daily dust-up between the schools and the students with law suits flying all over the place.  This is the day that schools are expected to raise the kids but at the same time the kids "can do no wrong." This seems to be the era when it's. "You offend me and I'll sue your ass!"

Bottom line is the whole country is changing.  Now with the oldtimers we find on 75m and some on 20m.....I don't have a clue except to suggest that perhaps they are disgusted with the way ham radio is going and they themselves have developed a nasty attitude.

Quote
With easy requirements a lot of CBers moved to ham radio and took attitude with them. With mail order no code ticket that is easy to get there is a lot of operators that would not be there today under old rules. The rules caved to lobbyist for equipment sales for sort term profits with no concern for long term effect

This is true.  Humans have little respect or place little value on anything that is GIVEN to them.  If a price has to be paid for something, it is taken care of.  Will reverting to the "old days" correct what is going on 14,313?  No.  I'm afraid the nasty genie is out of the bottle.

Quote
Ham radio isn't only money driven, it's ARRL driven too, but for different reasons.


"It's ARRL driven" is true.  The existence of the ARRL and ham radio itself is determined by the number of hams on the air.  The way to increase the number of hams is to make it easier to get a ticket.  The Internet and cell phones have created a major problem for ham radio.  The larger number of hams becomes an incentive for companies to build gear for these hams.  Again, the bottom line is MONEY.  

As an aside, if it wasn't for the ARRL, there would be no ham radio! That should be kept in mind.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 04, 2015, 08:30:22 PM
Almost every country has removed the code and made the exams easier yet the bad behavior typically comes from just two countries. So No it's not the code, it's the societies in these countries that are the root cause.

I disagree. Lot more hams here than many other countries combined. It is not total cause but opening flood gates with easy tickets did make it a lot worse. You are in denial to think otherwise.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K5TED on April 04, 2015, 08:57:56 PM
yeah, in a hobby where DX pileups, aka 'shouting matches', are de rigeur and encouraged even to the point of fostering lore, there is incivility... ok.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KD8MJR on April 05, 2015, 04:14:03 PM
Almost every country has removed the code and made the exams easier yet the bad behavior typically comes from just two countries. So No it's not the code, it's the societies in these countries that are the root cause.

I disagree. Lot more hams here than many other countries combined. It is not total cause but opening flood gates with easy tickets did make it a lot worse. You are in denial to think otherwise.

What you need to do is what I did.  Why don't you start to record the bad behavior during a dxpedition, especially those foul mouthed cops and then try to match those same voice to ops in QSO's on that same band on another day.  When you think the guy sounds the same record him and then play both recording back.  You will soon discover what I did, and that is that most of the guys involved in this are old time ham operators that believe that everyone who makes a mistake is a no coder and therefore gets the title of "CBer", "Dumb Ass" or "Moron".  These same guys soon get further frustrated and start to actually QRM the DX with long conversations cussing out one another or anyone who decides to reciprocate their foul language.  Often times this creates a domino effect that leads to several stations QRMing the Frequency with no regard for the DX operator.

So when you make your statements about CBers I suggest you do some investigation first before making that assumption.  And BTW a lot of the QRMers are also old timers who hold nets that fall within the range of the DX's split.  Very few new hams are involved in Nets.

The third reason your argument is weak is because numerous old time ham operators have already stated that this kind of behavior has been going on for decades.

The fourth reason that your statements is weak is that I know from experience from all the hobbies I have been in that the new people tend to be timid and cautious and rarely make trouble.  They tend to spend a great deal of time observing how it's done and they are typically not trying to make waves.  On the other hand there always seems to be a group of more experienced guys in every hobby that tend to have a superiority complex and are quick to get upset if the new guy makes a mistake as if they never did the same thing when they started.   I have to admit Ham Radio takes the cake as one of the most polarizing hobbies I have ever been in.  It consists of some really outstanding older guys that are very helpful and very kind and generous and then some equally outstanding Jerks that enjoy showing off their "knowledge" at every turn while berating everyone who does not share their opinion.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KK5DR on April 05, 2015, 04:19:09 PM
Go do CW! There are still good hams there, that long for nice QSOs.
Whenever I get annoyed or discouraged with phone operations, I go do CW, I find it to meditative for me.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W0BTU on April 05, 2015, 05:56:26 PM
... numerous old time ham operators have already stated that this kind of behavior has been going on for decades. ... new people tend to be timid and cautious and rarely make trouble.  They tend to spend a great deal of time observing how it's done and they are typically not trying to make waves.  On the other hand there always seems to be a group of more experienced guys in every hobby that tend to have a superiority complex and are quick to get upset if the new guy makes a mistake as if they never did the same thing ...

Somewhere on qrz.com is a speech by Riley Hollingsworth, a ham and former FCC lawyer. It'll make you stop and think. He makes a very good point that it's the long-time hams that are the real rabble-rousers, not the new no-coders, etc. Reading that certainly opened my eyes.

Sure, we hear the new no-code guys with their CB-speak ("What's your personal?", etc.), and maybe that irritates us. But read Riley's speech before you judge all the new hams as being the cause of most the nonsense on the HF bands.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 05, 2015, 06:20:12 PM
Somewhere on qrz.com is a speech by Riley Hollingsworth, a ham and former FCC lawyer. It'll make you stop and think. He makes a very good point that it's the long-time hams that are the real rabble-rousers, not the new no-coders, etc. Reading that certainly opened my eyes.

And if you read between the lines it is because the old timers remember when there were rules that were followed and no mail order tickets. The new generation does not say much nor follow old school rules. Why should they when they are getting a nearly free ride? 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 06, 2015, 04:25:02 PM
This has nothing to do with hard or easy testing.

Not true at all. With easy requirements a lot of CBers moved to ham radio and took attitude with them. With mail order no code ticket that is easy to get there is a lot of operators that would not be there today under old rules. The rules caved to lobbyist for equipment sales for sort term profits with no concern for long term effect. Just like gun lobby. 

One word--bullshit.  There were lids on the airwaves that thought they owned them for a long time before the testing was "dumbed down."  Don't blame simplified testing for all the ills of present day ham radio.  Easily half AND MORE of the problems present on the bands were there already.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 06, 2015, 07:55:57 PM
CJS:  You are partially correct.  We've always had lids.  Matter of fact the "Old Man" himself used to write article after article on lids. 

However, the total number of lids/hams ratio is totally different than when it was when HPM did his writing.

To simply say that "There were lids on the airwaves that thought they owned them for a long time before the testing was "dumbed down."  Don't blame simplified testing for all the ills of present day ham radio.  Easily half AND MORE of the problems present on the bands were there already." is more like a fart than bullshit!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W1JKA on April 07, 2015, 04:52:48 AM
CJS:  You are partially correct.  " is more like a fart than bullshit!

Thanks, I thought the odor was coming from my 13.8V PS.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 07, 2015, 06:03:57 AM
I still don't understand what a superior knowledge of electrical theory has to do with QRMing others or using foul language. Smart people can't be jerks?



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 07, 2015, 08:16:22 AM
I still don't understand what a superior knowledge of electrical theory has to do with QRMing others or using foul language. Smart people can't be jerks?

This is true but CB with went to crap because ANYONE could use it and not enforcement. Same will happen to ham radio as pretty much anyone that can remember multiple guess question answers (as you can get official questions on net) can easily pass test. To many the truth hurts and they want to believe that free tickets does not hurt hobby. Many new "extras" today do not even know how to tune/use a amp even when it has instructions. Ham radio is about were CB was 40 years ago now. If nothing is changed it will get worse. Denial does not change this fact.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 07, 2015, 08:34:58 AM
CJS:  You are partially correct.  We've always had lids.  Matter of fact the "Old Man" himself used to write article after article on lids. 

However, the total number of lids/hams ratio is totally different than when it was when HPM did his writing.

To simply say that "There were lids on the airwaves that thought they owned them for a long time before the testing was "dumbed down."  Don't blame simplified testing for all the ills of present day ham radio.  Easily half AND MORE of the problems present on the bands were there already." is more like a fart than bullshit!

It seems you and the resident know it all--'JX--are stating that the ratio of lids to hams is higher, and the sole reason is the changes to the testing regiment?  And you seem to disregard the changes in society in general.  In other words, you're saying the high number of lids is due to the relaxed testing and the influx of CBers--and nothing else.  That is what I say 'bullshit' to.


Don't get me wrong.  Yes, some of the newer hams brought their bad habits with them, but just as many do their best not to.  The point I'm trying to make is that the changes of testing and the influx of CBers onto the ham bands aren't the only reason that there are lids on the bands--as some of the old timers want you to believe.  There were lids on the bands before, and some of the older hams who weren't really lids before certainly could be called lids now--because of their attitudes toward the newer hams.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 07, 2015, 08:41:42 AM
Maybe for some memorizing 800+ questions on the Extra exam is an easy task, but for me it hasn't been. The "easy test" theory only applies to some, but not all of us. I've been a ham for 48 years, can do 40 WPM, but can't memorize 800 questions.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2GWK on April 07, 2015, 09:11:49 AM
Personally, I think it has much more to do with society in general than it does with testing standards or the ease of setting up a station. In general, people used to treat each other with much more respect than they do now days. You see it on the highways, on the Internet, in stores - almost anyplace where people interact with each other.  Ham radio is just one more of those places.


While this has some merit, harder tests/requirements weeded some out and made those that made it appreciate it more. Many modern hams would not be hams at all if old requirements were still in place and there would be less traffic on bands. This is a bit harsh but true.

I am for more difficult tests but I am also for everyone having to pass including those who already have extra class tickets to keep their tickets.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 07, 2015, 09:25:45 AM
I am for more difficult tests but I am also for everyone having to pass including those who already have extra class tickets to keep their tickets.

This has some merit but no chance of them making test harder. More money for enforcement would help a lot but that will never happen with a GOP congress that does not believe on infrastructure spending and uses that money to fund costly tax loop holes that benefit but a few.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 07, 2015, 09:50:34 AM
So if you had your way how would you make the test more difficult?

And how would that clean up the on air problems?


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 07, 2015, 10:23:21 AM
CJS:

Quote
It seems you and the resident know it all--'JX--are stating that the ratio of lids to hams is higher, and the sole reason is the changes to the testing regiment?  And you seem to disregard the changes in society in general.

First of all getting snarky because someone disagrees with you isn't necessary.  We're (I think we are) having a civilized discussion here.

I can't speak for JX but I feel the relaxation of the tests has allowed more of the what you call "changes in society" get into the ham hobby and bring their attitudes with them.

As for the CBrs coming in, I welcome them.  Many of them have a genuine interest in radio/electronics/communicating.  However, I know from experience that most simply buy 2m rigs and that's as far as they get into ham radio.  They've just changed names and frequencies by simply memorizing the answers to posted questions.

JX said, "Many new "extras" today do not even know how to tune/use a amp even when it has instructions."  I feel he's being charitable.  As I prowl eHam forums reading questions from Extra Class hams I see that many don't even know how to interconnect the exciter to the amplifier!

Seriously, if you're a thinking person, you'll have to admit that an Extra Class ham should be able to look at his exciter and amp manuals and figure out how to run a piece of wire from point A to point B!

As for making the tests harder.....as I said before, "The genie is out of the bottle."  There's no going back now.....just like Obamacare!



 

 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W8JX on April 07, 2015, 11:01:39 AM
Seriously, if you're a thinking person, you'll have to admit that an Extra Class ham should be able to look at his exciter and amp manuals and figure out how to run a piece of wire from point A to point B!

You would think as there was a time that most extras were very knowledgeable/skilled in ham radio

As for making the tests harder.....as I said before, "The genie is out of the bottle."  There's no going back now.....just like Obamacare!

Well voiding licensees would be about as popular as suddenly cancelling health insurance for those that never had it tell now. The answer is in enforcement by again that will never happen on a GOP say.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K6CPO on April 07, 2015, 11:21:11 AM
Bad behavior on the bands is a topic that has been endlessly belabored on this and other ham radio forums.  It's been happening since the beginning of amateur radio and it will continue long after all of us are dead and gone.  Just accept that it happens and move on.  Don Henley wrote and performed a song that sums it up perfectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 07, 2015, 12:12:30 PM
JKA:  Thanks for that info Jim.  The next time the wife walks into the shack after I've ripped an "eye-burner," I'll blame it on the Astron power supply. 

I used to blame the dog but he won't come into the shack anymore.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 07, 2015, 05:32:17 PM
'AXW, there were subtle 'confrontations' between 'JX and all too many hams--including myself.  I'm not the first or probably won't be the last who do not appreciate his 'snarkiness' or his smart remarks.  No disrespect was or is intended toward you, and if you took it that way, I offer apologies--to you.

Anyway, if you looked back and really examined statistics--which, I admit, is hard to do--you may find that there were a lot of CBers who took up the exams and the code and got their ham licenses way before the code test was dropped.  Don't forget to also include them in the pot, for they also brought their bad habits with them.  

There are also still many older hams who were on the bands before the testing changes, that have bad habits--and quite a few of those had been on the bands for many, many years before any of the recent changes were made or even the CB craze.

Also, please consider that it does take a while to drop those bad habits, and that can account for the behavior of the newest hams.  All we can do is gently remind them--as was done to me--not to use those terms and to discard the habits, as they are not appreciated by other hams.

The bottom line is that the changes in the testing and the dropping of the code requirement did not start the influx of bad habits heard on the bands.  That may have grown the problem, but it was still there--and very obvious to quite a few of us--to begin with.  


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W9FIB on April 07, 2015, 07:45:25 PM
Gee, there was a thread not to long ago that talked about how CB pretty much died years ago. So where are all these CBers coming from when there are not the great numbers there were 30 years ago? Or are we just going to consider anyone who gets a ham ticket is a CBer and should be ridiculed? And the young people who grew up after CB radio; why would they be CBers? Or should we now substitute Texters for CBers?

In reality there have been poor operators long ago, now, and probably always will be. What difference does it make if they took this test or that, or anything else you can dream up as an excuse to drivel on? In the end you have the same thing anyway. Good operators and poor ones. It will never change.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: G3RZP on April 08, 2015, 12:23:03 AM
Is it not so much CBers or ex-CBers as a change in society generally? A tendency to ignore authority of any kind, a 'leave me alone, I'll do what I want' attitude plus 'I don't care if you don't like it'?


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 08, 2015, 05:50:25 AM
I agree with G3RZP as you can see if you re-read Reply #22. Hard or easy tests have nothing to do with it. But for those who disagree I'll ask this question again, since no one so far has answered. What criteria will make the test hard enough to make bad behavior go away?


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W9FIB on April 08, 2015, 06:17:58 AM
I agree with G3RZP as you can see if you re-read Reply #22. Hard or easy tests have nothing to do with it. But for those who disagree I'll ask this question again, since no one so far has answered. What criteria will make the test hard enough to make bad behavior go away?

The only way you can "test" out bad operators is to have everyone fail the tests and the hobby dies. 0 operators will accomplish 0 bad operators.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KM4AH on April 08, 2015, 06:40:26 AM
I think there are a few individuals who nobody pays any attention to in the real world so they broadcast some nonsense on radio or make 50,000 posts on some forum.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 08, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
And then there are those who have no worthwhile goals who make inflammatory statements about others--just to see what trouble they can stir up....


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 08, 2015, 07:12:38 AM

W9FIB
"The only way you can "test" out bad operators is to have everyone fail the tests and the hobby dies. 0 operators will accomplish 0 bad operators."

Thanks, you just proved my point.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AA4PB on April 08, 2015, 07:38:09 AM
If the FCC suddenly closed all amateur radio operations, how many hams to you think would actually go off the air? All you need to do is discontinue use of you call sign and make up a handle and you are in  ;)


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 08, 2015, 10:48:38 AM
CJS:

Quote
I offer apologies--to you.
 Accepted.

Quote
Anyway, if you looked back and really examined statistics--which, I admit, is hard to do--you may find that there were a lot of CBers who took up the exams and the code and got their ham licenses way before the code test was dropped.  Don't forget to also include them in the pot, for they also brought their bad habits with them.

You are absolutely correct.....to a point.  Let me point out, although I can't quote hard statistics, I did live through this era.....played with CB both casually and professionally.  I have many friends who made the transition from CB to ham radio including learning code,etc.; some became hams and continue to stay on 2m. Most brought their "bad" (actually not "bad" but CB habits) with them.  However, MOST assimilated by learning new procedures, terminology and etiquette.

These I have welcomed and whenever I can, mentored. These are not in "the pot."

It now must be remembered that this transition period was fairly gradual.

I (once again) can't speak for JX but I suspect that both of us are talking about the tremendous influx of newly licensed "hams" because of the ridiculous testing methods now used, which is overwhelming the hobby we call ham radio.  The result has been anything but good for the hobby.

Quote
The bottom line is that the changes in the testing and the dropping of the code requirement did not start the influx of bad habits heard on the bands.  That may have grown the problem, but it was still there--and very obvious to quite a few of us--to begin with.

Start it?  Perhaps not but in my opinion it has been the major factor in the present form of ham radio, including many of the problems.

FIB points out previous threads about CBrs and ham radio.  To be clear, I don't think this is a CB to ham radio problem anymore.  It is simply "anyone can be a ham, all you have to do is memorize 50 answers out of a pre-published question pool."  What these answers actually MEAN to these new hams is irrelevant.

This discussion has been going on since the beginning of ham radio as I pointed out previously.  However, it's becoming worse with time and the subject HAS to be brought up and discussed periodically.

Otherwise we live in ignorance and those that are responsible for it continue to make changes that are not good for the hobby.







Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 08, 2015, 11:16:08 AM
DFC::

Quote
What criteria will make the test hard enough to make bad behavior go away?

There is NO criteria that will make bad habits go away!

However, consider this. When you actually had to study; had to work; to get a ham license, you had pride and you wanted to be accepted into the community.  Most of the time the people that learned electronics, math and the other test points in the exam, which was held before a hardassed FCC inspector continued on with their learning and hams worked at assembling, building and maintaining and improving their own stations.  The hobby was strong.

Quote
Insert Quote
If the FCC suddenly closed all amateur radio operations, how many hams to you think would actually go off the air? All you need to do is discontinue use of you call sign and make up a handle and you are in

PB is a prophet!  Eventually, ham radio will do exactly this, just like CB did.  Anyone who can't see this simply lacks foresight!  We have this here on eHam.com.  Look at the number of people using "handles" instead of their callsigns simply for anonymity! 

We have this on the ham bands now, only in much smaller numbers.  But it will change.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: PITSWL on April 08, 2015, 02:04:09 PM
PB is a prophet!  Eventually, ham radio will do exactly this, just like CB did.  Anyone who can't see this simply lacks foresight!  We have this here on eHam.com.  Look at the number of people using "handles" instead of their callsigns simply for anonymity! 

We have this on the ham bands now, only in much smaller numbers.  But it will change.

And, given the current state of affairs, it should.

You mention the use of screen names rather than call-signs on this website; that wouldn't be necessary if certain poor amateur radio operators, some of whom use this website, didn't spend so much time misusing the information found in the FCC's public database to defame their brothers in the hobby on the Internet, stalk and harass them IRL over silly disputes that an impartial outside observer would be loathe to call pointless because that would be giving them too much credit.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 08, 2015, 07:54:56 PM
'AXW, We're really saying the same thing, but with minor differences.  That involves the current testing regiment.  It really isn't entirely the fault of the FCC--the idea of a question pool--but it isn't as simple as you stated.

Quote
It is simply "anyone can be a ham, all you have to do is memorize 50 answers out of a pre-published question pool."  What these answers actually MEAN to these new hams is irrelevant.

A question--How does one know which 50 questions/answers to memorize out of the 426 questions in the pool?  The memorizing of 426 questions and answers isn't always simple--and in the course of that memorization a person is bound to learn something.  However, whether that person forgets the information as soon as they pass the test--that is, what the questions and answers mean to a new ham--IS the real point, as you said. 

Another thing is that the question and answer pool is mandated by law, and the FCC didn't suggest that law--or pass it for that manner.  But they do have to follow it.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 08, 2015, 08:17:15 PM
...You mention the use of screen names rather than call-signs on this website; that wouldn't be necessary if certain poor amateur radio operators, some of whom use this website, didn't spend so much time misusing the information found in the FCC's public database to defame their brothers in the hobby on the Internet, stalk and harass them IRL over silly disputes that an impartial outside observer would be loathe to call pointless because that would be giving them too much credit.

It comes down to the same thing--hams who think they own the bands.  I too had differences with a fellow ham who said in effect that he didn't want me in HIS hobby or for that manner HIS ARRL!  I left three associations because of his shenanigans, and now simply get on the radio once in a while when I can. 

The hams who do such things don't realize that they aren't hurting anyone except themselves.  They might gain a few followers or buy their way into leadership roles in some organizations, but the rest of the ham community see them for what they are--blowhards and bullies that have to have everything their own way--and most other hams won't have very much to do with them.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W0BTU on April 08, 2015, 08:48:17 PM
hams who think they own the bands. 

How about the ones who think they have squatter's rights to a certain frequency? They've been there for 40 years, so it must be theirs. All others, just go away. Too bad if you're using it when they want it.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 08, 2015, 09:20:58 PM
BTU:  Those you mention and a few others with equally bad habits.  Unfortunately, these seem to be older hams that have developed a badass attitude for some reason or another. 

Then again, since I'm 79 I still have presence of mind to know that I've developed a more narrow minded attitude with many things. 

I try my best to suppress this but occasionally it will leak out.  On the ham bands I go the other way....rather than do battle or exchange hostilities I just turn the dial.  There's too much spectrum and so little time left to be jousting with assholes.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W5WSS on April 11, 2015, 07:40:59 PM
Yeah to W0BTU...That has happened to me several times in the past back around 2009 by a relatively new ham.

Yes the same guy several times... :o

I was operating hill top mobile on 20m SSB working a pile up to Europe, Africa.

The effort to erect the antenna motivated and moreover of being limited to an indoor antenna from home elevated my desire to exercise my right to use the frequency that I established properly for awhile.

His tactic....break into my operation say hello briefly then announce "let me see if anybody else wants to say hello" of course there was always someone ready to pounce and that particular group would commence to rag chew and away he went.

Pretty clever the first time caught me off guard etc.

My DX and domestic signal reports along with the usual QSB was +20 or higher with the system but this happened allot more times than I would like to have happened but The pre net conversations would root me off the frequency 45 minutes to an hour before net commence time! LOL.

Edit: For a hill top mobile there really is not much room to operate a DX pile up on 20m SSB.

73


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2GWK on April 12, 2015, 09:09:34 AM
I really doubt that making the exams will have any effect on Amateur Radio. If the FCC ever were to make them more difficult, I would like to see current license holders have to pass the test to maintain their license.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K6CPO on April 12, 2015, 02:20:14 PM
Complaining about other operators seems to be the whine de jour these days...


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KD8MJR on April 12, 2015, 10:30:45 PM
I really doubt that making the exams will have any effect on Amateur Radio. If the FCC ever were to make them more difficult, I would like to see current license holders have to pass the test to maintain their license.

Making the exams too difficult would just kill the hobby.  This is not like the 1960's when operating a Ham Radio made you feel like you were part of NASA.  Most people have dozens of friends across the globe that they keep in contact with via Facebook and Skype. So a really hard test for something they consider antiquated is going to be a real turn off.

  The idea of re-licensing people would just cut the numbers of existing hams every year and it certainly would not be fair to ask someone who is 80 years old to have to study for an exam they passed before. I get your point, but the older hams do know their stuff and I will defend them just as vigorously as I defend the new hams.  The problem is that a few of the older hams have no idea what a blessing it is to have all these new people. They see it as an easy ride it to their exclusive club while ignoring all the benefits.  In 10 years time when we have exhausted all the wide eyed kids of the 1970's who dreamed of being Ham radio operator and only have left the generation that grew up with video games and PC's the few remaining hams will be begging people to join and I doubt that they will do so even if the exam was an online 10 question test.

If you ever doubt this just look at what is happening in Japan.  The number of hams has dropped almost in half in just the last few years.

73s
Rob


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2GWK on April 13, 2015, 05:13:14 AM
I really doubt that making the exams will have any effect on Amateur Radio. If the FCC ever were to make them more difficult, I would like to see current license holders have to pass the test to maintain their license.

Making the exams too difficult would just kill the hobby.  This is not like the 1960's when operating a Ham Radio made you feel like you were part of NASA.  Most people have dozens of friends across the globe that they keep in contact with via Facebook and Skype. So a really hard test for something they consider antiquated is going to be a real turn off.

  The idea of re-licensing people would just cut the numbers of existing hams every year and it certainly would not be fair to ask someone who is 80 years old to have to study for an exam they passed before. I get your point, but the older hams do know their stuff and I will defend them just as vigorously as I defend the new hams.  The problem is that a few of the older hams have no idea what a blessing it is to have all these new people. They see it as an easy ride it to their exclusive club while ignoring all the benefits.  In 10 years time when we have exhausted all the wide eyed kids of the 1970's who dreamed of being Ham radio operator and only have left the generation that grew up with video games and PC's the few remaining hams will be begging people to join and I doubt that they will do so even if the exam was an online 10 question test.

If you ever doubt this just look at what is happening in Japan.  The number of hams has dropped almost in half in just the last few years.

73s
Rob


Rob,

My point was that it didn't make sense. I was also trying to see how many would change their tune if they would have to retake the harder test to maintain their license.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: WA2ISE on April 13, 2015, 12:25:03 PM
Complaining about other operators seems to be the whine de jour these days...

I'll have some cheese to go with my whine...   ;D

Quote
(harder tests) we'll no longer have bad behaver? No cursing, no QRMing. No 14.313
14.313 lids existed back when you had to pass the 13 WPM code test to get a license to operate on that frequency...


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N7ZAL on April 13, 2015, 03:47:44 PM
I don't remember the 14.313 problem years ago or even hearing about it. However I worked CW...but did tune around.

I'm all for harder exams and making things more challenging than they are today, but it will never happen because money is in the "numbers." Meaning easier exams make for more hams and therefore more ARRL members and more sales of equipment from the manufacturers.

Reality.  :(


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AA4PB on April 13, 2015, 05:02:02 PM
More hams also means more influence with the regulators. Congress hasn't started auctioning off our frequencies - yet.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AC9EX on April 14, 2015, 08:20:28 AM
Ever since they made it very easy to get a ticket there was been a degradation of the hobby. Many ex CBers are now hams but brought the mindset with it. It is not the same as it was 46 years ago when I started and I fear the future holds even more degradation. I would say that 40 is maybe the least effected band and 20 the worst.
[/quote]

I don't completely agree with this statement, I believe Society as a whole has degraded in the last 46 years, back in the day you could do a deal on a handshake, not so much anymore. I have seen bad behavior on the part of as many OLD TIMERS in the hobby as newbies. We all seem to get more crotchety in our old age, HI HI. I do agree that getting into the hobby is easier today than in days gone by, I also think it was a necessary move on the FCC's part to keep Ham radio in existence. In today's society of instant gratification nobody wants to wait for anything anymore, fast food isn't even fast enough. We all need to be more civil to each other even if we tend to disagree. I consider myself a newbie although am a bordering old fart and sometimes crotchety. I have only been in Amateur radio for 15 years now, it is the greatest hobby in the world! Lets go and have fun!
73 to all
Todd Beay
AC9EX


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: WA2ISE on April 14, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
I think the only real difference between the "good old days" and today is that there are more licensed hams.  Which means that the bands will be more crowded, and thus more accidental QRM happening. And bigger pileups on that rare DX. 

Other things never really change, except technology gives us fancier toys now.  Back when I was in school, people said the schools were bad, not like when they were kids.  Today, my peers say today's schools are bad, not like in our day.  Sure.  And that today's pop music is evil.  They said that about Elvis and the Beatles, what else is new...  8)


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W1EBB on April 14, 2015, 08:21:42 PM
I think getting, and keeping, a ham license should be like getting and keeping a concealed carry permit to carry a pistol. You should have to prove your ability to use and maintain your equipment to gain and keep your license.
Years ago when I was a "no-code tech", two higher class hams who should have been elmering me, were always degrading me for not learning code. And they did this to the point that I almost quit ham radio. One day the older ham came to the car dealership I worked at and bought a new car. A week later he brought it back to the service dept where he knew I worked. He then proceeded to lecture me that "real hams" do code, and could I set the AM/FM radio in his car to the local stations!
The other guy constantly hassled me about being "no-code" and wanted to prove to me how a "real ham" makes contacts on the air. He said that I could come watch him work CW at Field Day. I came out to the field day location and found him with a "code reader device" and a keyboard!
Why even bother ? 
Several years ago everybody wanted new people in the hobby to keep it from dying.....now they are crying because the new people don't see things like the old-timers do. Its time to just chill out, police ourselves, and enjoy the amazing things that can be done with ham radio!
And remember that elmering/mentoring a "newbie" is better for everybody than critisizing people and creating hard feelings.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N0YXB on April 14, 2015, 10:19:58 PM
Other things never really change, except technology gives us fancier toys now.  Back when I was in school, people said the schools were bad, not like when they were kids.  Today, my peers say today's schools are bad, not like in our day.  Sure.  And that today's pop music is evil.  They said that about Elvis and the Beatles, what else is new...  8)

I think you are absolutely correct. Each generation seems to lament that we are going to hell in a handbasket.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 15, 2015, 11:04:29 AM
...Several years ago everybody wanted new people in the hobby to keep it from dying.....now they are crying because the new people don't see things like the old-timers do. Its time to just chill out, police ourselves, and enjoy the amazing things that can be done with ham radio!
And remember that elmering/mentoring a "newbie" is better for everybody than critisizing people and creating hard feelings.

Well said!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2GWK on April 16, 2015, 08:44:19 AM
Several years ago everybody wanted new people in the hobby to keep it from dying.....now they are crying because the new people don't see things like the old-timers do. Its time to just chill out, police ourselves, and enjoy the amazing things that can be done with ham radio!

And remember that elmering/mentoring a "newbie" is better for everybody than critisizing people and creating hard feelings.

+10000


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N7ZAL on April 16, 2015, 11:25:04 AM
Quote
And remember that elmering/mentoring a "newbie" is better for everybody than critisizing people and creating hard feelings.

Things work both ways and it should be the new ham trying to fit in, not the experienced hams having to adulterate themselves.
I've just about given up attempts at mentoring newer hams because there is a certain arrogance and ignorance.

An example is the AE who didn't know ohms law and said he didn't need to know it. That is the "new" ham. They are lucky the exams are so easy today or they would still be back on CB.  JMO


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W9FIB on April 16, 2015, 09:20:29 PM
All too often mentoring aka elmering means trying to force a certain set of standards on someone. And the arrogance from them is probably caused by those standards not being inline with the elmer.

By the same token, those being elmered probably think the same thing of the elmer.

To me, elmering is like getting on hf. Listen, listen, then listen some more. New hams will discover things as they start out. They like to talk about it. A good listener will be able to do that and then ask a question that relates to what the new ham just discovered. This provokes a dialog then to expand on the discovery. Next thing you know, that dialog just taught the new ham something, and the new ham probably didn't even realize it happened.

The extra that doesn't know Ohms Law? So what? I don't see Ohms Law pressing a mic button, or tapping the key to make CW. I don't see Ohms Law properly tuning an amplifier. I don't see a Bode plot calling CQ. I don't see a DMM ragchewing on 40 with a friend. I don't see a Norton Equivalent making a first contact on the local repeater. I have never seen a data sheet for some IC spinning the big knob looking for a clear frequency. I don't see an oscilloscope bending someone's ear with a good joke.

Too many people think that unless you can do some form of electrical engineering, you can't be a good ham. Hogwash! A person can be a great OP without all the electronics theory. Now I will agree that someone with a minimal electronics knowledge is more likely to be self sufficient when equipment problems arise. But I can show you electrical engineers who can design really great stuff, but can't turn on a flashlight. I have worked under a couple of them.

The notion that we need to be able to build equipment today like it was the 1950's is just wrong. Why do you think HR has the reputation that it is only for nerds? The answer is we tell others they don't fit for this reason or that. You have to have in depth knowledge of how a radio works in order to operate it. This is a common theme I see quite often. Do you really expect a doctor, a lawyer, a factory worker, or even a kid to REALLY understand electronics? And yet we have many of them, and many are great OPs.

I look at HR as a hobby with so many possibilities. I look at the hobby as a way to discover things. I look at the hobby as a place to learn. I look at the hobby as a place where any skill level can be involved. I look at the hobby as a place to make mistakes.

Some people refer to their FCC license as a ticket. To me it is closer to the truth then not. Because it really is a ticket to take a ride through a place that can be fun and educational. The problem comes in from some that either want to ruin others fun, or somehow side track them into some distant corner to stare at a blank wall. And the only thing I have ever learned from a blank wall is how to be bored and discouraged.

I still learn new things all the time. And I have a degree in electronics and been a ham close to 30 years now. I just bought my first hf amplifier. Found out rather quickly that my electronics degree never prepared me to tune up an SB-200! Yes I can hear people laughing as they read this. But it is true. While I have a good understanding of HOW it works, but it takes time and practice to actually make it work. And maybe even a question or 2.

And in my estimation, that is what this hobby is all about. The day I know it all is the day I tear up my ticket and get out of the hobby. But the truth is, with all the different things there is to this hobby, that day will never come. There are those that say they know enough. Complacent in the idea that they know enough. That is fine for them. They enjoy the hobby based on what they know and do. And if that is what makes the hobby fun for them, that's great. But I am not that person, and have yet to find the person who really knows it all.

There will always be good OPs, and bad OPs. If Marconi were alive, he would probably tell you stories of bad OPs he dealt with in his time. But to deny opportunity to many for the sins of the few is a huge mistake. HR will never be without problem OPs. But not lifting a finger to help those who strive to do more, or try to be better OPs because they MAY become bad OPs is not the solution.

OK there was my vent since this is a venting thread!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: KM4AH on April 17, 2015, 04:14:10 AM
I actually like the new crowd myself, minus the cursing.

I mean really, who wants to listen to a bunch of old farts monotone their keen grasp of fifty year old technology. Answers you can find on the internet in some fraction of a second.

Or, complain on some forum that everybody else is not equally as boring.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K4RCH on April 17, 2015, 05:41:29 AM
...
Too many people think that unless you can do some form of electrical engineering, you can't be a good ham. Hogwash! A person can be a great OP without all the electronics theory....

The notion that we need to be able to build equipment today like it was the 1950's is just wrong....

I look at HR as a hobby with so many possibilities. I look at the hobby as a way to discover things. I look at the hobby as a place to learn....

OK there was my vent since this is a venting thread!
Very well said!

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/974/clap.gif)


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N7AHE on April 17, 2015, 06:06:05 AM
...
Too many people think that unless you can do some form of electrical engineering, you can't be a good ham. Hogwash! A person can be a great OP without all the electronics theory....

The notion that we need to be able to build equipment today like it was the 1950's is just wrong....

I look at HR as a hobby with so many possibilities. I look at the hobby as a way to discover things. I look at the hobby as a place to learn....

OK there was my vent since this is a venting thread!
Very well said!


Very, Very well said. I do have an electronics background (lab equipment, not ham) and the 'ya gotta build yer own' attitude is what kept me out of the hobby since the 70s. The 'Evil One' then was the new ham that bought a commercial rig (especially a Japanese rice box). If it was 'solid state' you were complete anathema. Finally decided to get my license last year and am having fun. A little disappointing to find that the old guys are still here deriding a new target.

The possibilities in the hobby are huge. Yes, the regulations, simple politeness and manners need to be observed, but let people find and pursue those parts that interest them. If they want to build a tube radio - great, go for it. If they want to use their computer as a radio control device, no problem (even combining the Internet - oh, horror). Just CW - sure; SSB only - why not. RTTY, PSK, Packet, QRP, QRO, etc. etc. etc. Hopefully we will continue to see even more innovative technology and modes.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K9MHZ on April 18, 2015, 06:22:17 AM
Too many people think that unless you can do some form of electrical engineering, you can't be a good ham. Hogwash! A person can be a great OP without all the electronics theory. Now I will agree that someone with a minimal electronics knowledge is more likely to be self sufficient when equipment problems arise. But I can show you electrical engineers who can design really great stuff, but can't turn on a flashlight. I have worked under a couple of them.

I think it's a matter of degree.  The annoyance comes from that Extra Class licensee who needs help soldering a PL-259, and there are plenty out there like that.  It is different today.  Much of the "knowledge" of the past was of equipment that was primitive by today's standards.  Our "knowledge" seems headed toward understanding the systems of things, rather than the Ohm's Law analysis of biasing that pair of 6146s of the past.  I think my vent would be that of people thinking "damn right, I don't need to know that!", and being proud of it.  Of course, people trying to manhood measure on the air with tech-talk don't help, but there has to be at least some measure of a desire to know something about the technical side of a technical hobby.

 


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 18, 2015, 06:36:06 AM
But this whole discussion had nothing to do with "the technical side of a technical hobby". It had to do with rude behavior and people being jackasses. And somehow not being an electrical engineering major was the cause of it. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

K2DFC


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K9MHZ on April 18, 2015, 08:06:12 AM
Well, maybe after 6 full pages of replies, you might just get a thread veer.  It happens.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 18, 2015, 08:40:09 AM
Two simple questions.

1 - Take away the "technology" part of ham radio.  What do you have?  The answer is CB.

2 - Whenever a problem or question comes up, who does the 'know nothing ham' jump too?  The answer is the ham that has learned ohms law.

The electrical engineer who couldn't tune his newly acquired amp probably asked someone who knew. That person no doubt was one who learned how an amplifier is built and what it takes to make it work.  

I read questions on this forum everyday that almost anyone can answer that earned his "ticket" by studying electronic theory not memorizing the answers to pre-published questions.

Ham radio has always been a technical hobby populated by people who has an interest in electronics.  Of course the final goal was to be able to communicate with others who has the same interest. But the path to communicating was paved with effort and in the early days, blood, sweat and tears.  

If we take away this "interest" and go from zero to OP without knowing anything, what do you have?  A very large CB band!  And we can see where that went!!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: N7ZAL on April 18, 2015, 09:22:32 AM
Hard to disagree with anything in your post.  :)


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 18, 2015, 09:48:57 AM
K8AXW
But what does that have to do with rude, obnoxious, foul mouth behavior while on the air. These are two separate arguments. So if you don't know Ohms Law or can't solder a PL-259 your more prone to curse on the air?


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 18, 2015, 11:30:47 AM
I think that what some people are trying to say is that people who have little or no idea of electronic theory and practical electronics get into ham radio for the wrong reasons--at least in their opinion.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 18, 2015, 05:18:04 PM
CJS:  You're correct....IMHO.  In most cases, anything you have to work for is appreciated more.

Now it must be understood there are those old timers who are creating havoc on some bands and their is no excuse for that.  They know better and probably spent most of their ham careers "playing the game" as it is supposed to be played.  Then something happened to them....old age, senility....whatever... has created the attitude they presently have.

I can only hope that most of the ham community ignores them or the FCC nails them. 

I also hope that those that become hams learn something other than how to push the PTT button.

I also hope to win the Mega-lottery.

All of these are in the same box.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W9FIB on April 18, 2015, 07:09:05 PM
K8AXW
But what does that have to do with rude, obnoxious, foul mouth behavior while on the air. These are two separate arguments. So if you don't know Ohms Law or can't solder a PL-259 your more prone to curse on the air?

It means by some here that you are not a real ham when you can't solder or know Ohms law. And since your not a real ham, you WILL be the poor operator on the air. So by extention, your ability to be a good operator is based on how much technical knowledge you have. And also by extention, those poor operators who use the bad language on the air just can't exist before the testing was simplified.

Again I say hogwash. A poor operator can be some of the technically smartest people. It can also be people who have been trained by people that say they can't be real hams. So they just don't care how they operate.

So some feel they are connected somehow. I don't buy it. Never have and never will. Poor operators exist because they do what they want, when they want and typically without fear of reprisals. There in is the problem. Just like those who speed on the highway. Don't care about the laws and have no fear of the laws. Some just need to place the blame on someone else instead of the actual law breaker.

Yes I agree those operators are pathetic, but blame others for what the poor OPs do. That is a classic enabler. Just like serving alcohol to a drunk. Don't blame the drunk, he is that way cause someone else made him/her that way.

I also think the simple statement by CJS hits closest to home. Good post Chris!


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K8AXW on April 18, 2015, 08:19:54 PM
FIB:  We're talking about two different subjects here and mixing them into one.

This will never resolve anything nor will it create an understanding of what each of us is trying to say.

To that end, I can see further posts on this subject is a waste of time. 



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: W9FIB on April 19, 2015, 04:48:30 AM
FIB:  We're talking about two different subjects here and mixing them into one.

This will never resolve anything nor will it create an understanding of what each of us is trying to say.

To that end, I can see further posts on this subject is a waste of time. 

Because some are also mixing the subjects or we wouldn't have 2 subjects in the first place. I just tried to show the inaccuracy of the second subject as the cause of the first subject. And to help put a reason behind the first subject.

But you are right...If we all live in denial, blame others, and enable the bad OPs, there will never be a solution. As long as WE ALL don't become the self policing group, which was what I was taught when I first got my license we were supposed to be, conditions will continue to deteriorate. And I have become just as complacent as most other hams in doing nothing but complain on forums how bad it is. And there is where the blame should fall. All of us are responsible for the cleanliness of our bands. Not just finding (or making up) a reason to blame the problem on, and do nothing.



Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K1CJS on April 19, 2015, 07:49:09 AM
...Poor operators exist because they do what they want, when they want and typically without fear of reprisals. There in is the problem....

That's the truth of the matter in a nutshell--and that applies to all hams who are poor operators.  The really pathetic aspect to it is this:  Some of those long time hams who do as they want are just as bad if not worse than some of the newer "CB transplanted" bad habit hams are.  Sometimes those long time hams who are poor operators are more numerous on the bands than the newer 'transplanted' hams are too.

Ever stop to think that some of the long time hams have sunk to the poor operator level because they simply don't care anymore?  It's 'their' hobby, and they aren't giving it up--but neither do they care about what and how they're operating because they think nobody else cares--or is listening?

It all goes to show one simple thing about this thread.  You can't point fingers at any one group of hams--unless the grouping you're using is simply "poor operators."


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: K2DFC on April 19, 2015, 08:04:32 AM
This has nothing to do with hard or easy testing. It has to do with society in general. Nobody has any values anymore. Have you watched TV lately? Do you see many programs where you don't hear the constant "BEEP BEEP BEEP" of censoring. People don't care anymore. Bad language is common place today, so why wouldn't you expect to hear it on the ham bands. The same reason any DXpedition will attract QRMers who just want to make life miserable for others.
[

After following this for the last 7 pages, I stand by my original comment.


Title: RE: I'M SORRY, BUT I HAVE TO VENT!
Post by: AF5CC on April 25, 2015, 12:33:48 PM
hams who think they own the bands. 

How about the ones who think they have squatter's rights to a certain frequency? They've been there for 40 years, so it must be theirs. All others, just go away. Too bad if you're using it when they want it.

Still happens. Go listen to 14.300