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eHam Forums => Propagation => Topic started by: W9BVG on September 24, 2017, 09:10:06 PM



Title: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W9BVG on September 24, 2017, 09:10:06 PM
I'm in Illinois (~40 mi. west of Chicago) and have not heard anybody on these bands when I've checked during the past couple of weeks. Suppose lower sunspot activity could be causing a decline in long distance communication (2013 was the last peak in the 11-yr. cycle, correct?), although 20 meters has been open fairly regularly. I don't, however, even hear local, groundwave activity. When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then) activity on 10 meters in Maryland where I lived at the time....enjoyed lots of local (within a radius of maybe 30 or 40 miles) contacts. Since sunspot activity doesn't affect groundwave communications, where are the local 10 meter folks? Moved to another band....up, down?


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W8JX on September 25, 2017, 05:11:54 AM
VHF/UHF has long replaced most 10m local. There may be some daytime E's on occasion on those bands but they are going to be mostly dead next several years.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 25, 2017, 05:23:45 AM
And yet digital operators continue to work DX on these bands every day.  Get on FT8.  I find this terribly humorous, you guys complain that 10 and 15 are dead.  They are NOT!

Join the 21st century, and get on WSJT modes guys.  

I will be looking for you on the waterfall.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 25, 2017, 06:00:08 AM
Here is one minutes worth of what I copied on 15 meters about a minute ago.  on the left is the time in UTC,  then the signal strength referenced to a 2.5khz channel, the time offset, then the audio frequency, the tilde indicates FT8 mode, the station that the station I heard is calling, and his report.  The station I actually heard is the last call sign.  In the example of the F6ECI station the JN05 is his grid square.  RRR and 73 mean just what you think they do.  Yep, 15 is dead.  hi hi.

125445  -7 -0.0 1977 ~  7Z1IS LU8FDA -08         
125515 -21  0.4  321 ~  CQ F6ECI JN05            ~France
125515 -15  0.6 1013 ~  ER1PB PU2TLW R-21       
125515 -14 -0.1 1233 ~  YO7LGI PU2NOE RRR       
125515   4  0.5 1977 ~  7Z1IS LU8FDA -08         
125545 -16  0.6 1013 ~  ER1PB PU2TLW R-21       
125545 -16 -0.1 1234 ~  YO7LGI PU2NOE 73         
125545  -3  0.1 1976 ~  7Z1IS LU8FDA -08         
125545 -19 -0.2 1310 ~  TF2MSN ZS6AI KG43


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W8JX on September 25, 2017, 09:07:24 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 25, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

Well then, I guess I won't be seeing you on the waterfall after all..  hmmm  more bandwidth for me.  73 James K0UA


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W9BVG on September 25, 2017, 02:15:03 PM
Well, I have been away from ham radio for a number of years, so I need to get up to speed on changes that have occurred. I'll do some reading about digital radio before I form an opinion. Sounds like I'd have to make an investment in a 6 or 2 meter rig and antenna if I want some local chats. Thanks for info guys.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 25, 2017, 03:48:55 PM
Well, I have been away from ham radio for a number of years, so I need to get up to speed on changes that have occurred. I'll do some reading about digital radio before I form an opinion. Sounds like I'd have to make an investment in a 6 or 2 meter rig and antenna if I want some local chats. Thanks for info guys.

Invest in a 2 meter or 2meter/440 FM rig for local comms.  No local activity on 6.  6 meters is all about chasing E skip and meteor scatter.  Again more digital activity than all of the CW and SSB put together.  Oh, sure someone somewhere will come on and say.  Hey the podunk holler 6 meter net meets every thursday evening.  yeah right.  There is a small amount of 6 meter FM activity in some locales. and some 6 meter repeaters. Good luck finding anyone on them.  And good luck finding anyone on 52.525 the 6 meter FM national frequency even when the band is open.

  Nope 6 meters more than ever seems to be about digital modes. This E season, saw a significant reduction in 6 meter SSB and CW operators, because they were all up on JT65 at first, and then FT8 as soon as it was invented.  That is where I was.  Of course Meteor Scatter is 100% digital now.  No one operates CW meteor scatter any more and thank GOD.  Six meters is included in all newer HF rigs now, and you wont find much in the way of stand alone 6 meter rigs anymore.  There are hundreds of digital modes (way too many if you ask me),  But they have different purposes.  Some are ragchew modes, some are contest modes, and some are strictly for making contacts/awards.   A lot of people hate anything new, or the thought of learning a new way of doing old things, so you are going to see some of that.

But this is the modern world, and while Amateur radio is hardly at the "cutting edge" in anything anymore, we are slowly trying to move forward with new techniques.   Joe Taylor K1JT the leader in the latest digital modes suite is actually moving the state of the art in weak signal modes forward.  He and others are doing one heck of a job is short order I may add.   You will either embrace that and learn something new or you won't.  It is up to you.

The latest digital modes, have at least a 10 dB, some say more advantage over an equal powered CW signal. Just as CW has at least a 10 dB advantage over SSB, and of course SSB has at least 6 dB advantage over AM.    Add up those dB's and think about that.  Just taking the minimum dB advantage, some of the digital modes could easily be 26 or more dB more efficient watt for watt than an AM signal, and I would contend it is much more.

So to get started, you need to know which end of a computer has the power button, be able to install simple software (usually free), and how to set up the computer, the interface and the rig.  Sometimes here lately there is no interface on the modern rigs, as they include it inside.  The connection consists of an USB (Universal Serial Bus) cable, which can be found anywhere.  Wal Mart included ;)

I am almost 63 now, and If I can do it, ANYONE can..  It is all about wanting to. The other responder indicated that something will freeze over before I see him on the waterfall.  "So it shall be written, so it shall be done."  Have fun, stay young, drink Pepsi.:)  73 James K0UA


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 25, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
Quote
When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then)

Judging my your age and experiences, I am sure you remember when AM was king and this "new upstart" came on the scene called SSB.  Well for starters SSB was not new by any stretch of the imagination as it was in use by telephone carriers back in the 1920's but still for hams it was "new".  And do you remember the great "wailing and gnashing of teeth" and "over my dead body" from many older unwilling to change operators?  Surely you remember this? And while you do still have a few holdouts on AM, touting the great audio etc, for the most part even the older curmudgeons moved over to "Slop Bucket".  Or they died.  Either way, there isn't a great deal of AM operation left in the Amateur ranks today.

Well this move towards digital modes, (not to replace SSB or even CW for that matter) but to add a new dimension in long distance communications is also met with a great deal of wailing and tooth grinding by some.  But the majority are getting in on the new fun, and finding out if they like it or not.  I am busy helping others get their setups going, and trying to answer questions that I can.  Not that I am an expert by ANY stretch of the imagination, but just a guy that saw the promise of a shiny new toy and said "hey! I would like to try that".  So since I have just a little more knowledge about these things than you(dangerous? knowledge?)  than by default I am an expert :)


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W8JX on September 26, 2017, 06:56:08 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

Well then, I guess I won't be seeing you on the waterfall after all..  hmmm  more bandwidth for me.  73 James K0UA

You can have that waterfall. I have zero interest in automated hand shake QSO's.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on September 26, 2017, 07:01:43 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

Well then, I guess I won't be seeing you on the waterfall after all..  hmmm  more bandwidth for me.  73 James K0UA

You can have that waterfall. I have zero interest in automated hand shake QSO's.



That's OK.  It's all good..  :)


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: WB6BYU on September 26, 2017, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: W9BVG

...When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then) activity on 10 meters in Maryland where I lived at the time...



Besides predating 2m FM and repeaters for local contacts, 1959 was a huge solar cycle peak, so 10m and 15m
were often open for DX even after sunset.  We haven't had anything like it since.

So not only weren't there other options for local contacts, but hams often had their rigs on those bands in
the evenings anyway to catch openings.

Since then most local activity has switched to VHF/UHF FM and repeaters, and many hams don't have HF
equipment.  Without the local activity, folks don't monitor the bands when they appear to be dead, so
there isn't any local activity, so...


And I think those local conversations were actually direct waves (like VHF communications) rather than
ground waves.  The latter only work for vertical polarization, and wouldn't change significantly with
antenna height. 


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W9BVG on September 27, 2017, 05:43:00 PM
Yes, '59 was about a peak in sunspot activity. In '80 when I was working at NASA the agency launched the Solar Maximum Mission satellite to study the sunspot peak. So, using the 11-yr. cycle, that places the "peak" peak at '58. Got into ham radio in '57 with my Novice, then General in '59 with its voice privileges...yeah, I well remember all those terrific band openings to Europe, S. America and the Pacific! Anyway.....looking forward to getting back on the air (with my vacuum tube Heath "Apache" and sideband exciter and Hammarlund receiver....I'll see how well those work in today's environment!)


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: N0FPE on October 05, 2017, 03:30:08 PM
have to agree ..not interested in the automated don't even have to be in the room QSOs. And god are they SLOW . I do however work some of the other digital modes..one i like best is Hellschriber and then ThrobX. IMHO of course..


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on October 05, 2017, 05:47:04 PM
have to agree ..not interested in the automated don't even have to be in the room QSOs. And god are they SLOW . I do however work some of the other digital modes..one i like best is Hellschriber and then ThrobX. IMHO of course..


They aren't all SLOW.   FT8 is fast.  MSK144 is fast. 


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: ONAIR on October 06, 2017, 01:04:57 AM
You can always find a QSO on EchoLink!  Sometimes local, sometimes on the other side of the globe.  www.EchoLink.org


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: AA2UK on October 19, 2017, 10:10:03 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.
Well I'm glad most don't agree with you....
Bill, AA2UK


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on October 20, 2017, 06:51:42 AM
Judging by the vast amount of growth and interest in the WSJT modes and especially after the FT8 revolution this summer, most hams seem to like this mode and method of communication.  If you hate such things, you are definitely in the minority.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: WW7KE on October 20, 2017, 11:16:58 AM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

But you must embrace new technologies or get left behind, right?  I remember "someone" bleating that on a constant basis in another section of this site. ;) ;D


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on October 20, 2017, 12:07:13 PM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

But you must embrace new technologies or get left behind, right?  I remember "someone" bleating that on a constant basis in another section of this site. ;) ;D

Who?


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: VK6IS on October 21, 2017, 05:29:09 AM
You can always find a QSO on EchoLink!  Sometimes local, sometimes on the other side of the globe.  www.EchoLink.org


not so sure about that one - - last time I'd check in:
there was lots of OPs Listening - supposedly - - but none of them ever would Reply to Any call(s).


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W1VT on October 21, 2017, 09:51:56 AM
Good opening to Europe on 12M this morning--I worked HA and T7 for new ones on 12M digital--countries 99 and 100.  ;D


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: ONAIR on October 21, 2017, 05:31:34 PM
You can always find a QSO on EchoLink!  Sometimes local, sometimes on the other side of the globe.  www.EchoLink.org


not so sure about that one - - last time I'd check in:
there was lots of OPs Listening - supposedly - - but none of them ever would Reply to Any call(s).

   Try the conference servers.  There is usually activity on some of them!


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: WW7KE on October 21, 2017, 08:05:45 PM
To me WSJT or other automated handshake contact is of no value. I want a warm body and a real conversation and not just a handshake and maybe a signal report too.

But you must embrace new technologies or get left behind, right?  I remember "someone" bleating that on a constant basis in another section of this site. ;) ;D
Who?
You're kidding, right?  ??? ::) :o


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W1VT on October 22, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
10M is open to Europe--I worked an EA6 for number #97 towards 10M digital DXCC, and just now, and SV1 on 10M.  Antenna is an EDZ at 40 feet.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: KC2QYM on October 24, 2017, 07:48:12 AM
I am a pre-programmed macro on the keyboard of a shy non conversationalist ham.  I like to get pushed regularly during a digital contact.  My biggest pre-typed feature is giving a 59 to every station we are in QSO with even if their signal stinks.  My master is working on automating our functions so that my key wont be pushed anymore.  I am afraid that I will end up in my master's junk box along with all the microphones, and other obsolete technologies in his shack.  As a matter of fact my master is setting up his computer/radio to operate completely automated so he doesn't even have to do anything.  He seems to get off reading the contact log when he returns to the shack running through the scores of other automated stations the computer has contacted.  My master spends all the time that he is not tending the station sitting on the couch in the living room watching reality TV and eating potato chips.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on October 24, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
15 is really open this morning to all of europe and middle east.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: KC0W on October 28, 2017, 12:54:51 PM
When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then) activity on 10 meters

 Why do so many amateurs constantly lament about the past?

 BREAKING NEWS:

 It's NOT 1959 anymore. You can't get a loaf of bread for a nickel & a gallon of gasoline is not 25 cents anymore either.................Ten meters AM went the way of the blacksmith years ago.

                                                             Tom KC0W


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: K0UA on October 28, 2017, 01:57:23 PM
When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then) activity on 10 meters

 Why do so many amateurs constantly lament about the past?

 BREAKING NEWS:

 It's NOT 1959 anymore. You can't get a loaf of bread for a nickel & a gallon of gasoline is not 25 cents anymore either.................Ten meters AM went the way of the blacksmith years ago.

                                                             Tom KC0W

Actually there are more blacksmiths around than 10 meter AM operators. The big question is why in heck would you want to operate 10 meter AM?  Yeah, "back in the day" before the days of SSB if you want to operate phone, you operated AM,  I get that.  But those days are pretty much over.  There are still a few guys that think AM (Ancient Modulation) is the kittys meow, but not me...

Perhaps a lot of older guys remember their glory days back then when life was a lot easier and less complicated than it is now.  They remember the fun they had, and want to recreate that.  Same reason you see guys in their late 60's buying a muscle car.  Brings back old good memories of mustang Sally I guess.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: ONAIR on October 28, 2017, 03:17:48 PM
When I got my General license back in '59 I remember a lot of groundwave voice (AM then) activity on 10 meters

 Why do so many amateurs constantly lament about the past?

 BREAKING NEWS:

 It's NOT 1959 anymore. You can't get a loaf of bread for a nickel & a gallon of gasoline is not 25 cents anymore either.................Ten meters AM went the way of the blacksmith years ago.

                                                             Tom KC0W

Actually there are more blacksmiths around than 10 meter AM operators. The big question is why in heck would you want to operate 10 meter AM?  Yeah, "back in the day" before the days of SSB if you want to operate phone, you operated AM,  I get that.  But those days are pretty much over.  There are still a few guys that think AM (Ancient Modulation) is the kittys meow, but not me...

Perhaps a lot of older guys remember their glory days back then when life was a lot easier and less complicated than it is now.  They remember the fun they had, and want to recreate that.  Same reason you see guys in their late 60's buying a muscle car.  Brings back old good memories of mustang Sally I guess.
   You mean the Mustangs with the 102 inch whips??  ::)


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: KD7HNN on October 29, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
You can always find a QSO on EchoLink!  Sometimes local, sometimes on the other side of the globe.  www.EchoLink.org


not so sure about that one - - last time I'd check in:
there was lots of OPs Listening - supposedly - - but none of them ever would Reply to Any call(s).

   Try the conference servers.  There is usually activity on some of them!

Or Skype. It's the same thing.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W1VT on October 29, 2017, 07:06:03 PM
Got the last four countries I needed on 10M to work Digital DXCC on eight bands.  With wires strung between trees. In one week. ;D

Zack W1VT


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: AF5CC on November 08, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
You can listen for the 10 meter beacons between 28.200 and 28.300 if you want to know if the band is open.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: WD4ELG on November 11, 2017, 08:33:17 PM
nice job, Zack.

What modes and power on 10?  Were you pouncing or calling CQ?  What type of wire?  Any juicy DX?


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: RENTON481 on November 15, 2017, 03:52:50 PM
I am a pre-programmed macro on the keyboard of a shy non conversationalist ham.  I like to get pushed regularly during a digital contact.  My biggest pre-typed feature is giving a 59 to every station we are in QSO with even if their signal stinks.  My master is working on automating our functions so that my key wont be pushed anymore.  I am afraid that I will end up in my master's junk box along with all the microphones, and other obsolete technologies in his shack.  As a matter of fact my master is setting up his computer/radio to operate completely automated so he doesn't even have to do anything.  He seems to get off reading the contact log when he returns to the shack running through the scores of other automated stations the computer has contacted.  My master spends all the time that he is not tending the station sitting on the couch in the living room watching reality TV and eating potato chips.

I realise that you are making a statement using sarcasm, but I understand your concern. As a non-ham, I find it curious that so many hams want to let the computer do 90-100% of the work. It sort of takes the human element out of it. It's still technically ham radio, but the ham is really not engaged in the process when they can walk away and the computer does the QSO's.


Title: RE: 10 and 15 meter bands
Post by: W3TTT on November 21, 2017, 11:33:55 AM
I find it curious that so many hams want to let the computer do 90-100% of the work. It sort of takes the human element out of it. It's still technically ham radio, but the ham is really not engaged in the process when they can walk away and the computer does the QSO's.

Agreed.  Although I can do digital modes, I don't do much digital mode operating.  I have the most fun with my rig and CW Straight Key.  MEMBER SKCC.  But that is just me and 20,000 other members.