eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: KD8FDD on December 31, 2007, 05:13:50 AM



Title: laws for id
Post by: KD8FDD on December 31, 2007, 05:13:50 AM
Helo i'm a 14 yr old ham and have had my license for about a year. On 2m and hf I have heard all kinds of people using the phrase " clear after your final after there callsighn. Someone help me to understand if it is a fcc rule to make the last thing you say you callsighn. Isn't it an fcc rule.


Title: laws for id
Post by: N0RZT on December 31, 2007, 05:56:47 AM
You are required to ID at the end of a series of communications, but it'd be a very strict interpretation to take that as "the last thing out of your mouth is your call sign".

Consider the sentences: "Well, I'm destinated, Jason.  This is N0RZT, clear after your final KD8FDD."  The only things wrong with that are style - "destinated" is a horrible torture of the English language, and it's wrong to my ears to for the sender to give the other guy's call sign after his own.  The way you'd hear it from me would be: "Well, I'm in the parking lot, Jason.  KD8FDD, this is N0RZT; I'm clear on your final.  73."


73,
Chris
N0RZT/8


Title: laws for id
Post by: W3LK on December 31, 2007, 06:58:48 AM
Actually, the whole "clear after your transmission, etc", thing is kind of silly. It's a rag-chew thing. I don't know to many serious communicators who use it in any other context. Certainly not in ECOM-related communications.

And there is nowhere in Part 97 that says your call sign has to be the last words in any transmission.

Hang in there. You're going to get lots of goofy advice as you go along. :)

73,

Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut


Title: laws for id
Post by: KB9CRY on December 31, 2007, 08:44:16 AM
make the last thing you say you callsighn. Isn't it an fcc rule.


No.  You do have to ID with your callsign at the end of a series of transmissions but your callsign doesn't have to be the last thing you say.


Title: laws for id
Post by: KC0SHZ on December 31, 2007, 11:59:08 AM
Around Omaha, the final call sign ID is used for the end of extensive conversations.   If someone asks me for directions to a place and I answer in one 3 word  sentence, I often don't ID at the end.  If it turns into a real QSO, or I am part of a net, then I always sign at the end.


Title: laws for id
Post by: KD8FDD on December 31, 2007, 12:08:36 PM
Well I got an fcc ticket when I got my license because I sighned off of my first contact with the phrase clear. Now i'm a friend to that oo. I don't know what to make out of it. 73's


Title: laws for id
Post by: KG6WLS on December 31, 2007, 12:23:23 PM
"The only things wrong with that are style - "destinated" is a horrible torture of the English language, and it's wrong to my ears to for the sender to give the other guy's call sign after his own. The way you'd hear it from me would be: "Well, I'm in the parking lot..."

Hmmm, doesn't seem to bother me to hear the words "I'm destinated" after a mobile QSO/ragchew but, to some, I guess it does. I'd rather hear somebody simply say to me that they're "destinated" than hearing a long drawn out "Well, I'm in the parking lot, just in front of the drug store. Need to pick up my perscription for my (yada-yada-yada), and then off to the barber" and so on. I hear this kind of stuff sometimes after I finish QSO, and it's really none of my business what the other operator needs to do after they leave their radio.



Well, I'm destinated my friend. Thanks for the ride-along and Happy New Year to you and yours.

KD8FDD de KG6WLS -- 73 (without the 's)
QRT


Title: laws for id
Post by: ONAIR on December 31, 2007, 06:30:38 PM
   I think we're all destinated! Just throw your call into your last transmission and Uncle Charlie should be happy.


Title: laws for id
Post by: KA4CKR on December 31, 2007, 10:41:36 PM
There was a debate about this in my ham club. So, instead of wondering who was right and who was wrong, I simply sent an email to Riley. He said, and I quote, "During the sentence at the end is fine."

So, according to the man who would be "writing the tickets", your callsign doesn't have to be the last word out of your mouth.

Hope this helps,

Tim Newman
KA4CKR



Title: laws for id
Post by: KD8FDD on January 01, 2008, 10:14:29 AM
This is very confusing. He seems so serius and he has the whole fcc rulebook memorized. On the local repeters I will just make the last thing I say my call but on my first hf contact it may be a different story. He also says it is illegal to say kd8fdd mobile or portable. Or listening. 73's


Title: laws for id
Post by: W3LK on January 01, 2008, 12:24:42 PM
<<  He also says it is illegal to say kd8fdd mobile or portable. Or listening.>>

With all due respect, this person you are referring to is a idiot. None of this is illegal, and personally, I would not waste my time listening to anything further he has to say - on or off the air.

73,

Lon - W3LK
Naugatuck, Connecticut


Title: laws for id
Post by: AA4PB on January 01, 2008, 12:31:30 PM
Well I got an fcc ticket when I got my license because I sighned off of my first contact with the phrase clear. Now i'm a friend to that oo.
----------------------------------------------------

First off, an OO (Official Observer) is an ARRL appointment. He is not an official of the FCC and the advisory he sent you was NOT an FCC ticket. It carries no legal weight.

It sounds as though this OO has his own very strict interpretation of the FCC rules. There is no requirement to identify as mobile or portable but there is no rule against doing so. There is also nothing illegal with saying that you are listening as long as you include your call sign. It's common practice on most repeaters.

My suggestion would be to use the same procedures that the majority of others on your particular repeater use. Get a copy of the FCC Rulebook from the ARRL. It contains some "plain language" interpretation. You might also want to get a copy of the ARRL Operating Manual to check out some of the accepted procedures.


Title: laws for id
Post by: AG4RQ on January 02, 2008, 10:54:54 AM
The only rule that the FCC has for ID is to ID every 10 minutes and at the end of the QSO. How you do it and what you say is entirely up to you. There is a matter of protocol, which varies from area to area. Do as others do in your area and on your repeater. As long as you use no foul language, cause no harmful interference and ID every 10 minutes and at the end of the QSO, you're fine with the FCC.

BTW, there is no rule about giving the other person's callsign with your own when you ID. It's more of an "unwritten rule" that is merely customary among hams (amateur etiquette). If all you give is your own callsign when you ID, you're OK with the FCC. There is no rule about IDing at the beginning of a QSO either. If you come on a repeater with something like "KD8FDD listening" or "KD8FDD for ID", that's OK also.

Don't worry yourself with the so called "band cops" or "frequency police" that tell you what you're doing is illegal. If it's not prohibited in Part 97, it's not illegal.

73,
AG4RQ


Title: laws for id
Post by: N0RZT on January 05, 2008, 07:53:07 AM
Good morning,

> He also says it is illegal to say kd8fdd mobile
> or portable.

Then, respectfully, he needs to consult Part 97.

Part 97, Section 119, Paragraph (c) specifically permits self-assigned indicators "before, after, or both before and after, the call sign", provided it doesn't conflict with an indicator specified by the FCC rules or another country's prefix.

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/b.html#119

Under a strict interpretation of that paragraph, you would need to include some suitable word indicating the slant mark to separate the indicator from your call sign (e.g., "KD8FDD stroke mobile"), but common practice is to omit "stroke" when the identifier is not a letter/number combination.

For that matter, the word "mobile" or "portable" was an acceptable separator when you were required to identify your temporary call district - in college I identified as "N0RZT portable 9" or "N0RZT mobile 9".


73,
Chris
N0RZT/8


Title: laws for id
Post by: NA0AA on January 08, 2008, 06:35:52 PM
In some services - Aeronautical comes to mind, it's customary to acknowledge any transmission by giving your callsign at the end, but it was a double check to the ATC folks that the correct aircraft had responded.

I think that you are getting good advice here - as long as your call is part of your sign-off somewhere, you should be legal.

Clear:  This station is done, ready for traffic.

Monitoring:  I am now repeater control operator

Listening:  I have turned on my radio and wanted to annouce my presence on the repeater



Title: laws for id
Post by: AD5TD on January 14, 2008, 08:48:29 PM
OO's like that are just showing off.  As long as you give your call in the last 10 seconds or so of your last transmission, there should be no problem.  If you get another OO notice, email your district OO coordinator.


Title: laws for id
Post by: NN4F on January 23, 2008, 01:45:53 PM
>This is very confusing. He seems so serius and he has >the whole fcc rulebook memorized. On the local >repeters I will just make the last thing I say my >call but on my first hf contact it may be a different >story. He also says it is illegal to say kd8fdd >mobile or portable. Or listening. 73's  

Sounds like an over-zealous OO to me trying to scare a young new ham. And it would be an OO ticket not an FCC ticket.

I would stay well clear of this guy, and if he sends you any more "tickets" for something so trivial, then I would contact his section manager and inform them.

Welcome to Ham Radio and remember have FUN!!
 


Title: laws for id
Post by: KB3MMX on January 24, 2008, 04:31:57 PM
RIGHT FROM PART 97
 Notice it must be at the end of "communications" not at the end of the sentence.

===================================

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:


(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;

(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;

(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission.

(c) One or more indicators may be included with the call sign. Each indicator must be separated from the call sign by the slant mark (/) or by any suitable word that denotes the slant mark. If an indicator is self-assigned, it must be included before, after, or both before and after, the call sign. No self-assigned indicator may conflict with any other indicator specified by the FCC Rules or with any prefix assigned to another country.

(d) When transmitting in conjunction with an event of special significance, a station may substitute for its assigned call sign a special event call sign as shown for that station for that period of time on the common data base coordinated, maintained and disseminated by the special event call sign data base coordinators. Additionally, the station must transmit its assigned call sign at least once per hour during such transmissions.

(e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign.

(f) When the control operator who is exercising the rights and privileges authorized by §97.9(b) of this Part, an indicator must be included after the call sign as follows:


(1) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice to Technician Class: KT;
(2) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice, Technician or Technician Plus Class to General Class: AG;

(3) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice, Technician, Technician Plus, General, or Advanced Class operator to Amateur Extra Class: AE.

(g) When the station is transmitting under the authority of §97.107 of this part, an indicator consisting of the appropriate letter-numeral designating the station location must be included before the call sign that was issued to the station by the country granting the license. For an amateur service license granted by the Government of Canada, however, the indicator must be included after the call sign. At least once during each intercommunication, the identification announcement must include the geographical location as nearly as possible by city and state, commonwealth or possession.

-====================================


  Hope this helps as it is actually a common misconception that the callsign must be the last thing out of your mouth, as it clearly is not the case according to the rules.



73,

      KB3MMX


Title: laws for id
Post by: AB8E on April 19, 2009, 06:37:36 PM
Thank You... finally some one that can read... The word "END" is there for a reason... Now who is an Idiot...


Title: laws for id
Post by: N5LRZ on April 20, 2009, 04:34:35 AM
FCC Rules and Regs require ID every 10 min and at the end of the conversation.  The rules and regs do not state any specific required wording as far as I am aware of.

Its just a phrase.  Nothing at all to get all excited about.  



Title: laws for id
Post by: N5LRZ on April 20, 2009, 02:44:49 PM
Actually close but not quite, there are a couple of exceptions…

When it comes to phone modes you are correct in that ones call every 10min and at the end in either voice or CW.  

But there are a few legal amateur modes where call signs are not required to be given in the clear/open at all.  Using digital modes such as PSK, RTTY and such the call can be included in the computer generated transmission message as part of the tones being transmitted and still be legal.   When using image modes such as SSTV you have to only include your call sign in the picture you are sending.   However almost all amateurs opt to use the auto CW Id that comes with the digital and or image software as a general courtesy—being able to read the code when sent that fast is of course another story.

Example: I do a great deal of SSTV on the low bands, over 4000 picture transmissions and counting.  My only legal requirement per FCC Regs is that I include my call sign as part of the picture.  I do not have to transmit my call in voice or CW at all.  So if you heard my picture being sent you would have to have the software and proper computer interface to even read my call sign and I would still be completely legal.  But I transmit it anyway both in front of and at the end of each picture using the programs CW ID, just because.

The reason I mentioned this is that as you start to use other modes such as digital modes and image modes as you move up the license ladder be sure to actually read the FCC Rules and Regs word for word as it relates to IDing.


Title: laws for id
Post by: AB8E on April 21, 2009, 06:57:35 AM
Raymond,

I do understand exactly what you are trying to explain.

They are all exceptions to the rule. We all know what the FCC Rule #[97.119(a)], states.
I cant see where it states anything about the mode you decide to use...

I don't like peeing higher on the wall than the next guy.
This is a very sore topic.The thing about Hams & Bad Preachers are;
they somehow end up twisting words to suit there needs.

So with that being said the case is closed. All we have to do is read, what it states.
You can dance around all day long but it will never change the rule.. Sorry

If you are driving down the road, and you come to the "END" of the road at a cliff,
I hope you stop not keep going to try to prove a point.... The end is the end.. I'm done

kk


Title: laws for id
Post by: N5LRZ on April 21, 2009, 09:53:58 AM
RE AB8E...

Well first off feel free to call me by my more common name--Ray.

The rules are the rules and they are what they are and we as mere license holders have ablolutely no legal right to interpret those rules.  That lies strictly with the boss, The FCC.

If WE as licensed amateurs do not like the rules we have two options: we can request change or if failing that we can turn in our license for cancelation.

BUT there are circumstances where those very sacred FCC Rules and Regs are completely worthless.  I specificly site Field Day and just about all the very major Contests where stomping each other to death and the illegal allowance of permitting non licensed persons to transmit is all to common.

While Some things end, some things NEVER end.  SOME things like the energizer bunny keep on going on and on and on.

As to pizzing contests I have and will always strive to be the top P mark on the wall.  In fact my entire life has been and will always be the based on the position of 'I am superior to you' ism.  Anyone not likeing it I truly do not give a damn.  


Title: laws for id
Post by: N5LRZ on April 21, 2009, 01:00:33 PM
Re AB8E....

Re ARRL Web Site.
Search Part 97

FCC Rules and Regs

97.119
Station Identification
Paragraph (B)
Sec 3
Sec 4

And I qoute...

(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;

(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission.


Thus my statement ID via voice and/or CW ID is not required.  


The thing about the rules and regs is that they are always changing.  Everyone should from time to time skim thru the rules and regs to see what the FCC changes.