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eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 05:27:59 AM



Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 05:27:59 AM
A white flag question, I will not hack up any person or answer.  Its just a JUST CURIOUS question....

OK this is a simple "What IF....would you" question.

Situation...

Your town has just enacted the legal requirements enabling them to enforce the FCC rules and regs concerning CB.  They have gotten the green light from the FCC to begin enforcement.

A call has gone out for volunteers from the Amateur Radio community to act as a kind of CSI team/station inspection team.

As a station inspection member you would of course have to take and pass an FCC course on station inspection procedures and the city would instruct you on the proper way to gather evidence etc.

The only thing you would get out of this would be a little jacket with 'Police Dept' or some such garment to borrow from the city while you were inspecting and which you had to turn in afterwards.

You would NOT, I emphasis this, not enter any station or dwelling until law enforcement had served proper legal papers and made sure that no one will be shooting at you.

The simple question, given the above parameters and knowing that no one will be shooting at you, would you volunteer as an Amateur Radio Op to serve as a station inspector of CB Radio Stations?  Just a simple yea or nay, reasons are not necessary unless you feel the urgent need to state them.

===================================================


I will get it started, provided that the all clear was given by the proper law enforcement people authorized to legally carry firearms that it is safe to enter I would have no problem inspecting CB Stations for compliance with the FCC Rules and Regs as applicable to the CB Band.  So my reply would be the simple Yes I would serve my community in this capacity.


Title: Would you....
Post by: KA5N on November 04, 2009, 05:53:14 AM
Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.  It is unlikely that you would be indemnified as "an officer of the law" and any damage (no matter how it occurred) during the "examination" or personal injury could be the basis of a civil or even criminal law suit.  
Such activity is for the officials not a sworn in posse.
Protect yourself, steer clear!

Allen


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 06:49:52 AM
Re 5n...

Of course I could not put every possible thing into the original post or else it would be as long as War and Peace.

But rest assured it was given for granted that once trained the city and or government would exempt one from any kind of legal action as long as they followed established policy and procedures as formalized and properly codified by the proper legal agencies and government.

Given that you know know that you will never face any civil court suits or legal actions I give you a chance to reply again.


Title: Would you....
Post by: KA5N on November 04, 2009, 08:00:49 AM
Oh sure trust city government!  
What about the ticked off CBer who will find where you live?
I'm not getting into any fight that I don't have a dog in.  
You of course, can do as you please.
Allen


Title: Would you....
Post by: WW5AA on November 04, 2009, 08:13:59 AM
You could wear an orange hard hat with a 2 meter antenna on top, a belt full of HT's, a badge on your safety vest....wanna be's and ecomm experts. MERCY!

73 de Lindy


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 04, 2009, 08:29:21 AM
Sorry to be a naysayer, but, no. Not in Texas.

And you'd never know if the illegal rig is booby trapped as an IED.

Besides, one need not enter a dwelling to determine whether the signal is illegal. We have all kinds of test equipment for that.

Suspect equipment under "probable cause" based on the test equipment measurements would be confiscated by the cops and brought to a lab for evaluation and physical proof.

Cops have better things to do than track down CB'ers.
Unless fines would generate significant revenue for the local government, they probably won't bother.

Now, if the police chief is a Ham, it might be different. :)


Title: Would you....
Post by: WW5AA on November 04, 2009, 08:38:49 AM
I have it....we will train the C.B. ops to check ham stations...and your favorite, hams with antennas in HOA's. Then we change the FCC rules and have a stimulas plan for C.B. amplifiers. Wow!

73 de Lindy


Title: Would you....
Post by: WG7X on November 04, 2009, 08:49:42 AM
I confidently predict that this thread will degenerate shortly.

But in the meantime...

NO. No way no how. There are way to many downsides to that equation and very little rewards.

As much a I personally would love to shut down all the outlaw CB'ers, that is the job of law enforcement, be it local, state or federal. Outlaw types of folks tend to take things like inspecting stations for violations personally.

Would you be ready to face the consequences?

Think about the type of people who would be inspected.

Putting on the whacker badge and vest is not going to keep you out of harms way at oh, say 2 AM, now is it?

Yes, CB has become a cancer on the radio landscape. It needs to be cut out. Attending a short course and putting on a vest will not make you a surgeon, nor will it protect you from the disgruntled object of the search.

Let's leave law enforcement to those who are trained and paid to do it...

BTW, as adjunct to your question: Since in the eyes of the public, Amateur radio and CB are synonymous (the same that is) I would predict that legally licensed Amateur radio operators, who just happened to have an RFI problem might just find THEMSELVES on the wrong end of one of those "investigations".

How would that feel?

That's just what might happen if responsibility for enforcement of Federal statutes falls into local hands. Cops with a complaint, and little if any radio knowledge out to settle things down...

Yeah right! Just what we need. After all the problem is solved if YOU don't transmit right?

Let's leave this one alone, OK?

73 Gary

PS: Yes, I know that FCC has given local authorities permission to enforce anti-cb rules/ regulations. That really bothered me, especially since we all look the same to them.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K7UNZ on November 04, 2009, 08:55:38 AM
For the police to be involved, the complaint would have to be a violation of the criminal code, NOT a violation of FCC rules.

Think harassment, threats, etc., made via radio.

Technical inspections remain a FCC thing, not a police matter.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N3DF on November 04, 2009, 10:47:13 AM
CB radio has rules?


Title: Would you....
Post by: K2FOX on November 04, 2009, 11:23:24 AM
Absolutely not.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 11:45:56 AM
RE 5n...

Thanks for the reply.

And for you in general information, I truly dont care if an illegal CB person found out where I lived.

To do so would mean I gave a damn if he lived or died.

And I TRULY dont give a damn if they lived or died  (their problem in my book, not my problem at all).

At any rate thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 11:48:21 AM
RE AA..

Thanks for the reply.

It might surprise you to know that a couple of years back at our area and only hamfest that I saw someone wearing a safety hard hat that had a 2 meter mobile antenna (one of those short ones with the loading coil in the middle) attached to the top.  

It turned out that he actually transmitted with that antenna hat--low power of course ;)


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 11:52:57 AM
Re END...

Re your statement of cops have better ...

Well that may or may not be true.  It would of course depend on the size of the FCC Fine and or Cut of the fine that the local government got that would determine if such activity was a financial good thing.

I am sure that the local government would not do it for free.

And IF the local government got a cut I an pretty well certain that the local government would include in their agreement with the FCC that the FCC would do whatever it took (even garnishments and seizure of home and property) to collect the fines.  LOL IF I were the local government that is what I would insist on in the agreement with the FCC.

At any rate thank you for your reply.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:03:26 PM
Re AA...

Trained ops...

NOT a bad idea, BUT BUT BUT NOT CB ops.  They are only slightly above pond scum (FRS and those old Radio shack hand helds being the lowest of the low) in the food chain of radio.

Good Idea but wrong branch.  I have no objection to another service inspecting my station since I run only factory new gear out of the box without mods.  But, such inspections should be carried out by some branch HIGHER than Amateur (just as Amateur is HIGHER in the radio foodchain than CB).

WHICH ONE??? A good question.  GROL would be acceptable as the official inspectors of the FCC.  They are higher than Amateur Radio.  OF COURSE you have to keep in mind that only the FCC has any authority over Amateurs so the inspectors would be reporting directly to the FCC, of course, and not to any local, county or state government/government agency.

The FCC will allow local governments to enforce CB Rules and Regs but not Amateur Rules and regs.  Amateur Rules and regs they retain as their own territory of jurisdiction.

AT any rate thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:09:44 PM
Re 7x...

thanks for the reply...

And in reply to your statement how would if feel if say a GROL person came to look at my radions in and official FCC Inspection.

I would feel the same way as if an official FCC Field agent were doing the inspection.

I would not mind at all because I run a modern radio fresh out of the factory box without any mods at all.  I do not run an amp at this time so power abuse is not in the equasion.  PERHAPS later on in 5 or 10 years or so I might save up enough $$$$ to get me one of those 1500 Plus watt amps :).

I would hope that the visitors were FCC engineers though because I would get them a nice lunch and have a sit down with them tapping their brains as to how to improve my station and antennas while they are there.

At any rate thanks for the reply.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:12:34 PM
OOOH and 7x...

the invisioned inspection corps techies would not wear a badge of any kind or even be authorized to carry firearms (as law enforcement).

The only thing we would wear optional would be one of those windbreakers or a T shirt with Station Inspection Team (SIT) or some other such logo.  But no badges.

Just so you know.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:18:55 PM
Re UNZ...

One of the qualifications for manditory station examination would of course be a valid search warrant signed by a judge just like any other search order.

Appropriate complaints would of course have to precede such an inspection order.

For your in general information as far as I understand the way the system works, in order for a logal government to enforce CB Rules and Regs it has to as part of the requirements enact certain local laws which I imagine must include certain legal clauses and statements.

Now I cannot speak for every city and town but if any of the other cities and towns are like mine the city government meetings were laws are proposed, debated and sometimes passed are open to the public.  And the public can speak their mind if they sign up and get on the agenda for the meeting.  So its not a closed system where only the privledged get to make those authorizations that the FCC requires.  

At any rate thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:23:35 PM
Re DF...

re re CB has no rules...

Well yea it does have rules and regulations.

Unfortunately a lot of CB people deliberately do not follow them out of ignorance or just flat out willful law breaking.

Which is a shame because there are some good CB people who do not violate antenna height, power, frequency, dx talking, etc rules.  

Its like everything in life I guess.  The big bunch of good guys get screwed because of a few morons.

How does that saying go: One bad apple spoils the entire....

At any rate thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 12:24:35 PM
Re FOX...

A good answer....

short and sweet.

thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 04, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
>
"I would predict that legally licensed Amateur radio operators, who just happened to have an RFI problem might just find THEMSELVES on the wrong end of one of those 'investigations'."



If/when someone knocks on my door with interference claims, I will ask for exact time, date and call sign. And I'd require proof of the interference in the device suffering the interference. A tape recording is not proof. Anyone with a SWL radio or scanner can get a tape recording of normal signals.

If after much work they can produce all that, and if the data and my logs  match, I still don't have to defend it.

All good Hams know what the law is regarding this. The problem is owned by the receiver, not the transmitter--assuming the transmitter is legal and healthy.

tough kitty.

And if they catch me on a bad day, look out for a countersuit.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 04, 2009, 12:43:10 PM
"The only thing we would wear optional would be one of those windbreakers or a T shirt with Station Inspection Team (SIT) or some other such logo."

What about "station ham inspection team?"

hi


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 01:09:58 PM
Re END...

I am sure that such information as time etc would be included in the details of the compeltely legal search warrant given to you by the law enforcement people.

And if not the mere fact that a duly elected legal judge saying yes you are going to allow .... should meet all legal requirements of the law.

But just to make sure you do not get into trouble with the FCC in the meantime.  You might also want to read the rules and regulations governing amateur radio as it pertains to the FCC inspecting an amateur radio station.

I myself would welcome such an inspection if nothing else for two reasons:  it would clear my station of any present and possible future problems given that all my radios and equipment are factory fresh and completely unmodified  AND too that the presence of knoledgeable people having seen many amateur stations would present me with the opportunity to grill them so to speak as to how I might improve my station and my antennas.

I base the above last paragraph on the principle that an honest person (be ye CB or Amateur or whatever) obeying rules and regs using radios that he should be using and operating in the acceptable fashion under the rules and regs has absolutely nothing to fear from an inspection.  And in pure fact the person so inspected should look upon it as the opportunity to obtain information and knoledge that they could put to good use.

And besides, IF IF the complaintant is a neighbor who bitched and my station was found to be completely above board legal that would make them look like a first class moronic ass hole--that would please me to no end and alone be worth the inspection.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 01:14:25 PM
Re END...

OOOOO almost forgot the initials thing....

I have to honestly say I like that, but then I like sardines out of the can.  

But seriously, I seem to remember a court decision that stated that the S and F words on t shirts constitutes a public vulgarity or something like that--I would have to look it up.

Besides I dont think the police department would allow the use of the initials alone.  The entire name with all the letters should be no problem but just the initals probably would not be allowed even if the court said it was not public vulgarity.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 04, 2009, 03:18:09 PM
Re End...

in re re...

"All good Hams know what the law is regarding this. The problem is owned by the receiver, not the transmitter--assuming the transmitter is legal and healthy.

tough kitty.

And if they catch me on a bad day, look out for a countersuit. "

What you say is completely true and valid in so far is it pertains to a legal licensed Amateur Radio Station of the FCC operating within the Rules and Regs of the FCC.  And this fact is easily determined by a simple check of the call sign in the FCC database easily obtained by a simple monitoring of transmissions--name address and all the important info will be in the FCC records.

The ONLY time any kind of confusion that may arise is IF a CBer got a say techie license and STILL operated in CB (what a moron).  Then it would be a dual station and may cause the inspection of the CB station.  WHICH could be an embarassment if the only transmitter to be seen is an Amateur Radio and not a completely legit CB Radio.

But just so you do not get unnecessary gray hairs, the current FCC policy allowing local governments to enforce CB Rules and Regulations do not apply to the enforcement of Amateur Rules and Regulations.  Local governments are allowed to only enforce CB Rules and Regs.  All other FCC Licensed services are exempt from their jurisdiction.  LOL I guess the FCC wants to keep the fun of torturing these exempt services to themselves.

IF the FCC sends an inspection team to inspect your station it will be an inspection from "THE MAN HIMSELF" --or in the current situation herself.

You might want to read up on the FCC Rules And Regulations as it relates to FCC Station Inspections by the FCC.

You might also want to read up on the FCC Policy and Procedures as to inspections as well, probably not included in the rules and regulations themselves.  Where you will find this information I cannot say.

Just so you will know that as an amateur station licensed by the FCC you as an Amateur Station will not be inspected by local authorities,its gonna be FCC people themselves.

But purely, only, just out of personal inquisitiveness/curiousity why are you so adement and strongly defending CB Outlaws so to speak?  Or at least so it seems you are defending people who deliberately and openly flaunt their Rule Breaking like it was some kind of badge of honor?

IF I am wrong then please fill me in on your reasoning.


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 04, 2009, 07:33:49 PM
ha ha this is real funny! lol! i think HAMS like to be junior g men beacus they get board talking on there 1 watt walkys that only get out like 2 miles!! lol!! thats why they put on a hard hat and a red vest and wait for a parad to come by! lol!! if a HAM came over at my house i wold probly have to take a hour just to esplain what a real radio is! lol! then he can go beep de beep on his walky and i can go shoot some big skip on my real radio! lol! may be if these HAM had a real radio in stead a walky they wold get on the radio and not go a round tryng to act like they was the police! lol!! if any a you walky hams want to come over at my house you dont need no warennt just come on over an we drink some beers an i will show you all a real radio and how to work it! but dont were youre hard hat beacus it looks nerd!! lol!!!!!!!


Title: Would you....
Post by: VK6NDT on November 05, 2009, 02:26:50 AM
you guys stress too much and must have some serious issues.

"Quote - Let's leave law enforcement to those who are trained and paid to do it. " at the begining it said "if you were trained..

here in Australia the "FCC" is Called ACMA (australian communications and media aurthority)
when they have enough evidence to warrant a search of someones house accompanying them are the boys in blue with the search warrent. they stand around and make sure the searchee is not going to do anything stupid. they usually feel stupid because they have been caught.

As for bombs being hidden in radio's to blow up in the face of an inspector.. i think id rather take a couple hundred or even couple thousand dollar fine over a life prison term.

I know a couple of Radio inspectors in west aust and they usually have more important thing to do then worry about the clown band but when they do have to they make sure they have enough evidence to rain hell on the person. and i dont think any of them have had any issues with discruntled customers.

As my answer. i sure would. if i was given the correct training req (even tho as a tech i probably have a good idea as to wat to look for)

we also have very strict gun laws so i dont think someone poking a gun in your face would be too much of a problem. The inspections are always well organised and the culpret would have no idea it was about to go down so setting any booby traps would probably be out of the question too.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 05, 2009, 03:58:51 AM
>
"But purely, only, just out of personal inquisitiveness/curiousity why are you so adement and strongly defending CB Outlaws so to speak?
IF I am wrong then please fill me in on your reasoning."

You must have carpal tunnel syndrome by now from all that typing. hihi.

I admire the diligence.

To answer your question, I am only speaking of defending my own rights as a licensed Ham.

Illegal CB'ers have no rights. They should all be tried by ordeal and burned at the stake.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 05, 2009, 04:05:37 AM
Charlie is a unique and droll troll; a court jester, class clown, ventriloquist dummy.

He's gotta be a ham, with a weird sense of humor.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 06:38:20 AM
Re Charlie...

That is exactly the problem...

The new hams buy all this garbage that is thrown out at them of using a hand held as a radio equal to a 60 watt or higher mobile--which it definately is not.

They spend twice as much money than they need to for an underpowered radio and expect too much both out of the radio and the Tech License.

It does not take long for the the new meat to find out that that they need a mobile more than a hand held and shell out more money on a mobile and power supply (if they have it) only to find that the Tech License and the 2 m band is a Dead End Road to nowhere.

SOME quit and drop out right then and there or get their General Class License only to find a bigger horror.  The average Factory Fresh/brand new/out of the factory box  median price radio costs at the very least 2000 for the radio alone and that does not include the tower,full size triband beam, good coax, proper rotor (which are damn expensive these days/some OVER 1000).  STICKER SHOCK.  

AND IF they buy 2nd hand they still get STICKER SHOCK when that old piece of junk breaks and they have to pay 75 or MORE dollars per hour for a repair person PLUS the price of parts PLUS the price of shipping and handling to and from.  Even a minor repair could cost well over 500 dollars once its all totaled.  AND THAT is IF the tech can get the spare part AT ALL.

The bottom line is that there are a hell of a lot of people on the US FCC list of licensed hams who have just flat out dropped out entirely for economic, job related or family related (spending a lot of money on any hobby puts financial stress on any family budget) factors.  Their licenses have just NOT YET expired for the FCC to delete their license.

SOMETIMES I think the very first question on the entry level test should be:

Do you make enough disposable income to immediately spend at the very least 10 thousand dollars or more on equipment?

Yes--good continue
No--you might want to turn in your test immediately/you are not rich enough to become a Amateur Operator.


The 2nd question would be:

Do you live in an Home Owners Association area that may restrict external antennas?

No--continue testing
Yes--turn in your test immediately because you will not legally be able to put up any kind of antnenna system worth even getting the license.

The first two questions alone would weed out those who are going to end of dropping out of Amateur Radio anyway.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 06:45:44 AM
Re NDT...

To clear up a misconception you have.  The inspection function would not be a matter of enforcement.  They would only inspect the station and site illegal equipment, overheight antennas and such in the form of a written report.

The accompanying law enforcement officers aka police, sheriff deputy etc would be the actual persons confiscating the equipment (seizure laws allow for law enforcement to seized certain specified personal property used for illgal purposes on the spot).  It would be court judicial system and or the FCC Enforcement System that would be doing the actual enforcemnt with the city and or county getting a part of the financial fine for acting as independant enforcement agents.


So if you want to reconsider your reply feel free.

And thank you for your reply.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 07:18:37 AM
Re KA5N...

Thanks for your reply.

LOL and just in case you did not know, dog fighting is illegal--a fact one infamous football player found out recently.  

Its all right with me what a person does do their own pets be it good, bad or indifferent still its illegal.

ALTHOUGH I must admit that even in my little city there is still underground cock fighting and dog fights.  Ya just gotta know the right people to find out where its held.  LOL kind of like the Speak Easy days of Prohibition--Shades of Elliot Ness.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 08:00:29 AM
Re NDT comments on traps...

NDT makes a valid comment in his final paragraph.  

If done propery any inspection would be a complete surprise to the station owner.  

BUT at any rate any attempt to trap equipment would be stupid on the part of the owner in that any such action would also put the owner (and possibly their family) at extreme risk to life and health.

JUST a thought to consider.

The count so far by the way, 2 yea the rest nay.  NOT TOO BAD considering that the %age of people willing to become police officers who risk getting shot at and possibly killed on a daily basis or becomming firemen risking becomming krispy fried Krispy Critters every day are an insignificant percentage of the population.

PLEASE keep up the replies, thanks one and all.


Title: Would you....
Post by: KA5N on November 05, 2009, 08:38:43 AM
To N5LRZ

What are you doing living in the South if you don't understand "I don't have a dog in that fight."  Which simply means that matter doesn't concern me and I have no interest in it."
Of course I know that dog fighting and cock fighting are illegal and that neither has anything to do with your cock-a-mammie original posting (which I wish I had ignored).
I hope you go full speed ahead into sticking your nose in others businesses, don't be surprised when it gets bloodied.
As they say on the East coast
"take a hike"


Title: Would you....
Post by: WB5JEO on November 05, 2009, 10:02:32 AM
Look. I assume this is something of a brainstorm and hasn't yet happened and that the relevant authorities, first and foremost the chief of police, have not been consulted, not to mention the city attorney. You're going to find that there is more to this than you even imagined. There are practical considerations, even if this were legally possible as you describe it. You're talking about a city ordinance, violations of which are the lowest class of offense, punishable by a fine only. That means that city ordinance cases are quick and dirty and very efficient. One reason is that the liability for the offender is so trivial that they aren't hard fought, especially since defendants in those courts don't get to have attorneys appointed. (They're not hard fought unless there's a constitutional issue and money behind the effort, which there might well be in a deal like this. Note the defense funds for hams fighting antenna legal issues.) If they want a lawyer, they have to pay for it, hardly a cost-effective thing when the fee is more than the fine and the fact that municipal judges frequently dispose of nuisance cases by admonishing first-time offenders not to do that again and case dismissed. Another is that the issues are simple, and the proof is generally simply a photograph or just the testimony of an officer or city inspector who witnessed it. Serious technical evidence doesn't come into any but a very few commercial offenses in which experts, typically something like an engineer, is used. The city goes that expense, not because there a big fine to gain, but because those case are a matter of maintaining enforcement of a major life and safety issue.

This also means that police departments don't have to devote much resources to enforcement of ordinances. When you get into search warrants, it starts sucking up resources. In Texas, for instance, such a warrant would be "evidentiary," which means it's for the purpose of securing evidence, rather than "contraband," something that's unlawful to possess under state law, which nothing you contemplate looking for is. The non-attorney justices of the peace and municipal court judges in courts that are not a "court of record" (which only the larger cities maintain) can't even issue the warrants. So, you end up with a lot of officer time preparing affidavits to show a more sophisticated judge who is going to be picky about the probable cause and who, if he's thinking right, will demand technically credible evidence, which, if you're not an engineer, you can't supply. (Nor could you be admitted to testify to scientific matters without professional credentials. If you don't know what the name "Jason Daubert" signifies in law and never heard of the "Kuhmo Tire Company," you're not even in the game.) They don't need you to identify an overheight antenna or tower. City inspectors can already do that. You're not getting into any houses, because, unless your city is under the sway of a large, vicious gang of CBers presenting an ongoing danger to women, children and small dogs, the police department isn't going to dump resources into a scheme like that. It's a non-problem, unless it involves interference with Joe Sixpack's Saturday football game on TV and likely to start a fight. (See the other poster's comment on being careful what you wish for with regard to legit hams interfering.) Many cities have dealt with that under ordinance without any need for a posse of hams, because a simple ordinance, simply enforced in municipal court, suffices.

Cities, in fact, have limited standing to mess around in radio emission affairs. They can get by with a plain fact issue of someone interfering to the point of inducing a public disturbance (not really tested up the appeals chain, so far as I know, again, because it's a low-liability offense), but they're not going to venture beyond that into technical matters without getting some opinions from the state attorney general, even in the unlikely event that they were inclined to consider it. And I have a pretty good idea what the AG will say, not that I expect any city attorney to ask the question. And, unless you can show a city attorney a copy of another city's ordinance like this and a program like this, they're not likely to experiment.

Additionally, the police department has to devote considerable resources to training any volunteers, no matter what capacity they work with them. They are very, very careful about anyone they make an agent of the City, and they don't do it without need. (Their workers comp ends up on the hook, for one thing.) In fact, about the only non-commissioned volunteers I've seen used in the field are in the area of community service where volunteer victim services people work strictly in non-enforcement roles (it took six months to train ours) and in the very limited authority here to appoint volunteer civilians to write handicap parking violations.

If you want to find out, go ahead and approach the chief or the city attorney. But after spending most of my life in law enforcement, including an investigative command position in a city police department, as well as a stint as a municipal court judge, I have a pretty good idea you'll get one of two responses, polite listening and a promise to think about it, which will be the last you hear, or a polite listen and an explanation why it ain't gonna happen.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 05, 2009, 11:42:04 AM
JEO,

What a well-written and informative post!

Your description sounds very credible.

Ham volunteers should stick to what we can do: provide communications and networking in certain or unusual circumstances.

For example, Hams were very effective at locating "lost parents" at a recent large-crowd event here. A network of a few Hams in a crowd of thousands was remarkably effective at this, among other things.

To those who want to "help" the cops, I ask this.

What if your dentist used volunteers to drill cavities or take Xrays? I would not want to go to that dentist for a root canal. Would you? Aside from the fact the patient will be VERY uncomfortable, imagine how the dentist's insurance costs would explode.

Let people who know how to do things for a living do those things.

So, let's leave law enforcement to law enforcement personnel. I don't always agree with the way some of the things are done, but then again I'm in the armchair merely observing. They have an honorable and thankless job, and I don't want it.


Title: Would you....
Post by: KB2FCV on November 05, 2009, 12:32:08 PM
Leave the law enforcement to the Law enforcement professionals.

There is no guarantee that any person you would go to inspect would be armed or would be prone to physical violence. I could see it now... 'knock knock' "Hi this is Bob Smith K2XYZ, I have a warrant and some test equipment and I am here to inspect your Citizens Band Equipment". CB'er: "Where is your badge and gun? Would you like to meet my 12 guage? Get the #*&$* off my property!"

Let the FCC/Feds/LEO's handle it, it's not our job to engage these people.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 02:42:43 PM
Re JEO...

re re "This also means that police departments don't have to devote much resources to enforcement of ordinances. When you get into search warrants, it starts sucking up resources"

This might not be a problem for the simple reason all that one would have to confirm would be that the address is not an amateur station (which is easily proved a monitored amateur call or the simple looking up of the address in the FCC database.

Financially I am taking it for granted that the town or county will be getting a cut/piece of the fine upon FCC finding the station guilty of breaking rules and regs.  The system would in theory be self supporting and perhaps very profitable.

AND IF it were profitable per legal bust, the city or county would have financial incentive to be pro active in enforcement of CB Rules and regs.


Anyway a few things to consider....

Thanks for the reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 02:50:42 PM
5N...

Attacking a law enforcement personel, police or otherwise is not taken lightly by any law enforcement agency to my knoledge.

Any assault and batter of my person I promise you will be promptly reported with an eye of throwing the person into prison as the penalty.

That would of course be extremely stupid on the part of the CB offender because then they would have a Criminal Charge, an FCC Fine with possible loss of home and property, seizure of all illegal equipment and possible garnishment of all current and future wages to pay for any unpaid amoutnts of fines.

But then again I personally knew way back in the day CB people who were not incredibly bright.


Title: Would you....
Post by: K5END on November 05, 2009, 04:19:36 PM
"...CB people who were not incredibly bright."



That is not an exclusively CB trait.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 06:34:51 PM
Re END...bright

Quit true in so far as certain Amaateur Radio Ops who live in HOA communities on a voluntary basis.

Such people are truly the dim bulb of the box.

EVEN WORSE are those who living there think I am going to show them any mercy what so ever when I reply to their posts.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 05, 2009, 06:49:36 PM
Re FCV...

re re "There is no guarantee that any person you would go to inspect would be armed or would be prone to physical violence. I could see it now... 'knock knock' "Hi this is Bob Smith K2XYZ, I have a warrant and some test equipment and I am here to inspect your Citizens Band Equipment". CB'er: "Where is your badge and gun? Would you like to meet my 12 guage? Get the #*&$* off my property!"


ACTUALLY if you read post #1 it clearly states that your description is completely wrong and innacurate.

There would be a search warrant served by a sheriff or police officer allowing the inspection of the radio station and it would be signed by a judge/just like any other criminal search warrant.

The law officers would make sure of the safety of the RIT aka Radio Inspection Team and then and only then would the inspecion team (I envision 3 inspectors in each team) would go to the radio station and document radios, amps, antenna height, etc etc against FCC Rules and Regs for CB.  BUT the team would only enter after the police and or sheriff officers delivered a very official and binding search and inspection warrant.

It  would not be HI Im...  No I do not envision it working that way.  The RIT would in no way be placed in any kind of danger in that they would only inspect and file a report.

Weither or not illegal equipment would be confiscasted would of course be up to the judge, DA or whomever.  

SO if you would like to render another reply please feel free to do so.

And thanks for the comments.


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 05, 2009, 07:25:12 PM
lol!!! they shold have a new HAM test and call it junior g man class for HAMS who arent smart enogh to work a radio but want a carry a walky and brake down cbers door! lol!!! my buddy jeff say some thing funny he say if you get youre HAM junior g man class lisense you get to were a propeler on top a youre hard hat at the parad!! lol!!!!!!! i want a see a shine on that HAM bage bud!! lol!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 06, 2009, 07:10:41 AM
RE Charlie...

If one obeys the Rules and Regulations governing the radio service that they use in re to equipment, power limitations, antennas, modifications, etc etc then one has absolutely nothing to worry about.

If on the other hand one blantantly breaks rules and regulations like common criminals then they deserve what they get, or should I say lose.

The financial penalty for violation of FCC Rules and Regs for Amateur Radio is as high as 10,000 per violation.  I am not aware of the financial penalties for CB but I do know that at least 2 CB people have been sent to Federal Prisons for violations--one in FL and one in CA.

Ever since the cowardly islamic POS attacked the Trade Center the FCC has not been kind to violations.  They have even started to take seriously violations of RFI in power lines sending notices of apparatent liablitly to Power Companies.

The days of the kinder/gentlier FCC are long gone.


Title: Would you....
Post by: WG7X on November 06, 2009, 07:57:42 AM
Again:

A local police officer who would be responding to an RFI complaint coming from my station, be it low power or high, would only have one simple, effective solution to the "Problem".

I stop transmitting: Problem solved.

It matters not at that point whether I'm federally licensed or not, all that matters is that the officer has told me (the offender) to cease and desist. If I offer resistance or fail to comply I will be at fault and may see the inside of the gray bar hotel for a night.

Am I right in my assertions? Yes I am a federally licensed Amateur radio operator who will eventually win whenever it goes to court. Will it matter that I will win?

Not at the time that I'm labeled as a perp and spend time setting in jail with the other perps...

Sorry OM, thankfully I guess that the police themselves know that they don't have the ability to get involved in this kind of neighborhood dispute.

... Or do they?

73 Gary


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 06, 2009, 10:00:58 AM
Re 7X...

As far as I can fathom the legal requirements of enforcement, the locality must first enact certain ordinances authorizing etc as a part of organization of the activity

I suspect however that IF the FCC wanted to they could levy maximum fines per infraction monitored and if the fines are NOT paid they would seized the persons house, vehicle, and other property along with seizure and destruction of all illegal equipment.  Garnishments of wages would also be an open possibility as well.

By utilizing the MAX fines the FCC would show the people granting their budgets that they are worthy of a little bit more money (more enforcement actions taken) and the local governments if given a nice chunk of the enforcement fines as independant agents could reap a nice financial reward.  

Politicians I find love money and spending it.  PERHAPS enough financial incentive on a guaranteed commission would get those politicians moving.

Well at any rate the inspection would not be overly difficult.  The FCC has an official list of banned radios for the CB Band making illegal radio detection quite easy most of the time--aka what is the name of that radio and is it on the banned list.  Illegal amps are quite easy to spot.  Even type accepted radios modified illegally would be easy to detect via a simple watt meter and dummy load.  EVEN EASIER would be if the only transmitter there was a ham radio (obviously both not type accepted and illegal power for the CB Band).  So inspection for the CB station should be a very simple affair.  

The hardest part of the training would be the official aka legal procedures in their proper order so that a case could not be thrown out of court or FCC Fine revoked due to improper evidence gathering methods.  Kind of like the way the Crime Scene investigative people have certain rules and procedures at a possible crime scene.

At any rate thanks for the comments


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 07, 2009, 10:33:41 AM
lol!!! it wold be funny to see HAMS runing around the town lookin for cbers doors to bust down! may be even put them in little clown cars with a flashing red lite on the roof! lol!! they be jaw jackin on there 1 watt walkys going QBQ! QBQ! QBQ! beep dee beep beep dee beep! CQ! CQ! lol!!!!! and when your runnin around we will just be on the chanel shootin skip like nothing is going on! lol!!! when i get my HAM im just going to get on my radio set and mine my own biusness and talk on the chanel and let you 1 watt walky boys run around with youre vest and walky and hard hat playin junior g man!! lol!!! whats a matter you try to get in the police acadmy and they turn you down?? lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 07, 2009, 10:37:59 AM
hay NSLRZ my buddy jeff just read what you been sayin and want to know if youre name is dwite shroot?? i ask him how he no your name and he bust out laffing and smack me in the side a my head and walk away! lol!!! so i think that must be some kind a joke!!! thanks


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 09, 2009, 05:46:30 AM
Re Chuckie...

Name ... no

And the proposal was no joke as far as I was concerned.  

I would LOVE IT if local law enforcement would enact the CB Rules and Regs (for a piece of the monitary pie).

And I was completely serious about law enforcement and Amateur performing public service thru the function of performing the actual inspection and prepare the written report of said inspection.  Said report being forwarded to the District Attorney and the FCC for Legal Enforcement Action.

Seizure of obviouse illegal CB Equipment on the spot would of course be determined via any agreement between Local Law Enforcement and the FCC as a matter of evidence collection (much in the same what as law enforcement seizes personal property as evidence in criminal enforcement)

AND TOOOOOO as previously state, IF the cut of the local law enforcement as independant enforcement agents was sufficiently great the locals would come out net ahead/profit.  Preliminary PROOF of CB activity would be just listening to the CB Band near the station--the jargon of CB is completely different compared to acceptable jargon of Amateur (and their speaking shall give them away).

And it would not be too hard to denote an amateur station from a CB station.  Antenna types are for most part completely different.  And the FCC datebase search lets you type in the address to see if its an amateur station or not.  People using a PO box such as myself need only produce their amateur license as proof (it should be hanging on the wall or at hand in the station records for immediate access).  OF COURSE if they were heard on CB on illegal frequencies and all they had was a Ham Radio then BUSTED BUSTED BUSTED--AUTO GUILTY.

The fines by the way for a licensed amateur operating otuside of legal frequency is quite HIGH.  Fines can go up to 10 thousand dollars per violation.


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 09, 2009, 03:33:39 PM
lol!!! i gess you think HAMS and the police got nothin better to do then hunt down a cber that aint hurtin no body! lol! well i no the police got better things a do but the HAMS im not so sure! lol!!!! may be you are so bore with youre 1 watt walky and there is no parad going thru town you not for sure what to do with youre self! may be you need a hobbie! lol!!!! may be you can also get HAMS and the police to hunt down poeple whos grass is to long! lol! or may be HAMS and police can hunt for jay walkers! lol!!! may be if you just get on a real radio you forget about cbers and just have fun with youre radio! but i dout it! lol!!!! keep a shine on at bage boy! lol !!!!! dont taze me bro! lol!


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 10, 2009, 07:39:20 AM
RE Charles...

re re jaywalkers...

IF there is a local and legal law against crossing in the middle of a block then law enforcement should stop and site said people for violations.  

The Local Government could use the income ant the law is the law and as such should and ought to be enforced no matter how minor.

Legal codified law should always be superior to individual desires.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 10, 2009, 07:54:00 AM
Re Charles...

But to the heart of your statement...

As CB people acquire a techie amateur license issued by the FCC they open themselves up to severe monitary punitive fines and pelalties.  


Lets see/for example: A techie licensed amateur uses his Amateur Radio to transmit on the CB Band say 5 times.   10 K (FCC Fines for licensed amateurs in violation of Amateur rules and regs can legally go as high as 10 thousand dollars per violation) times  5 illegal transmissions would be a fine potential of 50 thousand dollars.  OF WHICH should and ought to be collected completely without any humanity, sympathy or mercy using any and all methods (including seizures of property and garnishment of any and all wages).  

Now IF the city gets 5 thousand for that 50 thousand  bust and they bust just 10 people that would be 50 thousand for the city cut alone if all the busts averaged 50 thousand per.  NOT CHICKEN FEED.

The above is merely an example of how a mere few could be fined to provide much needed community funds.  It would not take many such busts to make the system pay for itself if the system were run efficiently.


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 11, 2009, 04:00:14 PM
wow that a lot a money! lol!! may be next time i here some bucket mouth key up with out ast for the brake i can call the police and we brake down the guys door and i get some a that money!!! lol!!!! or may be me and my buddy jeff we go bust the door down with out the police do we get to keep all the money???? lol!!!! i bet you call the police when some body play there music to loud or if there car is to loud when they drive down youre street! lol!!! must be a lot a fun to live on youre block and see the police all ways showin up evry day!! lol!!! hay may be i quit my job drivin that dang truck an just help the police bust down HAMS doors and cber doors!! lol!!!! probly make more money that a way! lol!!!! thanks


Title: Would you....
Post by: NA0AA on November 11, 2009, 04:50:53 PM
NFW.

No
Freaking
Way.

Nope nope nope nope nope.

Not a cop, not a cop wanna-be.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 12, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
How did you know that charles...

That in my small city there is a law that specificly prohibits loud music after a certain time of night if it comes from a personal residence.  AND there is a law that prohibits music or noise comming from a motor vehicle if it excedes a certain volume level.

And in pure fact the Police have issued tickets to drivers with their hyped up auto amps turned up too high resulting in a trafic ticket.

True absolute fact.

A practice which I most whole heartedly support and have absolutely no problem with.


Title: Would you....
Post by: N5LRZ on November 12, 2009, 12:39:58 PM
Re WOU...

I take it that you do not feel comfortable with the position, please dont hold back ;)

But seriously, your reaction is not unusual in the slightest.  Take for example hmmm the City of New York.  How many million people/adults live there?  How many apply to be a police officer (getting shot at), firemen/women (turned into a crispy critter), or any other form of public service job that requires one to risk life and limb as a normal part of the job description.  

What %age of that total population is willing to take those risks as a job description?  Not one whole hell of a lot.  

SOME people will step up and volunteer to perform the service and actually look forward to the opportunity to serve, but most will not (primary reason,fear of getting involved).  Still as long as 'Enough' get involved that would be all that matters in the end game.

Thanks for your reply


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 12, 2009, 08:31:39 PM
lol! ha ha i thout you was the type a guy who wold call the police on his neibors lie evry day! lol!!! bet your a populer guy on your block!! lol!! i get the idear that if you wasnt a HAM you wold call the cops to complane about HAM antenas! lol!!!!!!!


Title: Would you....
Post by: CHARLIEBAKER on November 12, 2009, 08:37:27 PM
my buddy jeff just read this and asts if you have ever called the cops on your self?? lol!!! lol!!!!