eHam

eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: KI4JGT on September 27, 2010, 03:39:55 PM



Title: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 27, 2010, 03:39:55 PM
The two computers are about 500 miles apart. I need them to act as if they are networked and I don't want any satellites involved LOL. I know amateur radio offers support on this one, but it's illegal to send anything over the amateur radio bands that is encrypted unless it's to a satellite. Even encrypted talking is illegal. Anyone have any creative solutions?


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 27, 2010, 03:48:11 PM
What kind of bandwidth do you require? There are HF systems that can transfer a file but the speed is slow and its not suitable for normal "networking". What is in the file that you want it encrypted? You can't encrypt data over amateur radio for the purpose of obscuring the meaning of the content, but you can "encode" a file in order to facilitate its transfer. For example, you can encode a file in order to compress it and make the transfer go faster. There is no requirement to send files as plain ASCII text.

You need to provide more information about what you are wanting to do if you want a good answer.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 27, 2010, 03:56:49 PM
Umm. Basically it's encrypted to obscure the information from being read by other people. I'm doing some research on the internet and trying to make it faster. I'm trying to make an open network, comparable to the internet with these extra qualities.

- Every user could potentially get an unlimited connection
- Every Server/Website could have an unlimited connection to everyone using it!
- Every server/Website cold have the ability to experience 100% uptime
- All communications could be completely confidential between the two individuals talking and no one else.
- All using the current set of protocols we are currently using (TCP/IP)
- No one could monitor your communications
- HTML could be made simpler and still maintain it's (complete) functionality
- The Internet could be FREE (No Price)
- While maintaining proper authentication protocols (people would still be able to be traced for illegal stuff)
- The only hardware required would be a MODERN computer (Windows Vista/7, Linix, Apple)

I have a blueprint, but no idea how to make it work. The only thing I can program in is BASIC and as the old saying goes, you can use any programming language for any purpose, but some are a little better prepared to handle the program you want to write. I'm studying Python, but it makes me want to hit my computer with a sledge hammer. Everything requires a function to make it work.

**EDIT: Oh and anyone wishing to help me program this is welcome.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 27, 2010, 04:20:13 PM
Given your requirements, amateur radio is out. For a distance of 500 miles you'd have to put up a network of microwave links which would be a massive undertaking given the need to rent tower sites, etc. Why don't you run a VPN over the Internet?


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 27, 2010, 04:24:31 PM
That's what I've been getting a lot of, but part of the blueprint deals with the computers networking device itself. Basically, since the VPN goes through the TCP/IP I wouldn't be able to use it. I need to be able to use the TCP/IP and the networking devices directly. Which is why I said I needed it to act like a network, kind of like a long distance WIFI.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 27, 2010, 04:33:10 PM
It's not really a requirement to have these two computers linked, I could like two that were within WIFI distance. What I'm wanting this for is to link to people who will be helping me with this project, and like I said, it can't be through the internet. Now that I think about it, I've got to reconfigure the way the computer connects to everything. TCP/IP will be the same, but I doubt if the internet or VPN will be compatible. It will limit the bandwidth, which is what I'm trying to undo. I'm trying to achieve unlimited or a bandwidth that is limited by the hardware of the computer, and not the ISP


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 28, 2010, 06:08:14 AM
Well, you can establish a VPN through a TCP/IP connection. It's done all the time on the Internet for corporate connections.

One issue with using amateur radio for the link is that people involved need to be licensed. You also have to be sure that the traffic is non-commercial and meets the requirements of amateur radio. For example, you couldn't put an e-ham web page through an amateur radio link because of the commercial advertising. The other issue is that on an amateur radio link you cannot legally run a VPN to encrypt the traffic for the purpose of keeping prying eyes out.

Next, it is difficult to establish a high bandwidth (high speed) link over a distance of 500 miles on a small budget. You won't do it point-to-point, it will require an infrastructure of several relay points. You would have to use UHF or higher frequencies in order to be authorized the bandwidth required to support the speeds you are looking for. If you want the computer NIC to be the limiting factor on bandwidth then you need a backbone that can support at least 100Mbps (or 1Gbps if your NIC supports that). The general rule of thumb is that you should design the network to handle twice what you expect to run on it.

Of course, if money is not an issue then you can lease a circuit to do what you want to do. The least expensive way to do it is to put a VPN over the Internet provided you can obtain high speed Internet service at both ends. It won't meet your requirement of having the NIC be the limiting factor however.



Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: W5GNB on September 28, 2010, 06:40:15 AM
Check out this website:

www.realvnc.com

There is a Free version that will do just what you are trying to do.  I have used it for years!

For Ham radio, there really isn't anything of an application that would allow for decent file transfers to take place within your LIFETIME!! (Far Too SLOW)

73's
Gary - W5GNB




Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 28, 2010, 07:06:24 AM
Verizon has a product called EVPL which runs over their fiber network. It gives you high speed Ethernet connections to all your sites using VLAN switches. It would be an option IF its available at all of your sites. I've used it but never had to pay the bill so I don't know what it costs. It's probably not cheap.

Like I said, getting maximum Ethernet speeds over a 500 mile distance is possible, but its never inexpensive.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: N6CTW on September 28, 2010, 09:10:22 AM
Here is how I would attack the problem; If you have the programs on both computer that is 500 miles apart and you wish to access a file while in the program, then why not carry a flash drive with your files on the flash drive?

I do it all the time with Quicken and Microsoft Office files.

Hopefully that will be an answer to your quest of sharing files.

Cliff, N6CTW


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 28, 2010, 03:40:46 PM
Even 300 baud dial up would be faster than driving the flash drive 500 miles  ;D


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 28, 2010, 07:12:49 PM
Thanks guys for all your suggestions. I think I like the Verison one best. Although, I believe I'm going to have to find some financial backers. I know all this is possible, due to all the software I've seen on the internet already. The only problem is, no one seems to believe me. It's like I'm a crazed maniac or something.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KE4DRN on September 28, 2010, 08:13:52 PM
hi,

This sounds like 'Internet Nirvana'!

Brings back memories circa 1975 during the big CB craze,
one of my friends envisioned a personal communications device,
similar to the Communicator on StarTrek, that everyone could
use for free, antenna all over the place,
never having to put quarters in pay telephones, etc.
very similar to the cell phones of today, but it was all FREE
and unlimited, claimed it would put the evil  phone companies out of business!

73 james

- Every user could potentially get an unlimited connection
- Every Server/Website could have an unlimited connection to everyone using it!
- Every server/Website cold have the ability to experience 100% uptime
- All communications could be completely confidential between the two individuals talking and no one else.
- All using the current set of protocols we are currently using (TCP/IP)
- No one could monitor your communications
- HTML could be made simpler and still maintain it's (complete) functionality
- The Internet could be FREE (No Price)
- While maintaining proper authentication protocols (people would still be able to be traced for illegal stuff)
- The only hardware required would be a MODERN computer (Windows Vista/7, Linix, Apple)

I have a blueprint, but no idea how to make it work. The only thing I can program in is BASIC and as the old saying goes, you can use any programming language for any purpose, but some are a little better prepared to handle the program you want to write. I'm studying Python, but it makes me want to hit my computer with a sledge hammer. Everything requires a function to make it work.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on September 29, 2010, 07:04:20 AM
There's already software available to do most of what you are wanting. Even Windows provides an SSL VPN provided the server at the other end requests it. Most corporate IT types want to use stand-alone security devices however because a Windows computer/server is too easy to hack into an potentially bypass the VPN.

If you are thinking about marketing something then you need to give some serious thought to the backbone. Don't forget that in order to provide 1Gb service to every computer all the time, the backbone will have to be designed for 1Gb x the number of users. How are you going to pay for all this high speed connectivity and still make it free for the users? Somebody has to pay for it. Normally a service provider does an analysis of the "average" traffic load and tries to accommodate that because he can't charge residential users $500 per month for Internet service.

The biggest problem for most ISPs is getting a high speed connection between the ISP and the typical residential users. Cable probably does the best at the moment, but there are a lot of places in the U.S. that are not served by cable. It doesn't come anywhere near your 1Gb requirement anyway. The Verizon EVPL system has pretty limited coverage, mainly to commercial areas in major cities.  I'll bet that the cost is in excess of $1000 per month per circuit (two termination points) plus installation. It comes in to your premises on fiber and terminates at a fiber modem which then gives you a CAT5 Ethernet connection to connect to a computer or local network.



Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on September 29, 2010, 06:50:36 PM
Here, I've opened this forum on codecall. Although I got a little upset with the people on the forums, (They seemed to only point out what I didn't know, and how since I didn't know that stuff, I must not know anything else) I have gone into details on the basics of how I feel this would work. But here they are http://forum.codecall.net/general-programming/32018-network-encryption-programing.html


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: WY3X on October 02, 2010, 08:16:38 PM
Without getting too technically involved, the problem seems pretty simple.
Once you look at the physical and legal limitations, it plans your path for you.

1. You don't want to use the internet.
2. You want to encrypt your files, which leaves out amateur radio.
3. You don't want to use satellites (and even if you did, it would be cost-prohibitive).

That leaves you with very few options.

1. POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service)
2. Run your own hard wire 500 miles (not practical and cost prohibitive)
3. RF links (many microwave links, practical, but cost prohibitive)
4. Cellular phone direct networking (direct-dial point A to point B) with modem phones.
(I'm not sure this can be done, but it sounds practical.) The encryption would
be done by your cell phone company, one less thing to worry about, but law
enforcement could "listen in" if they obtained a wiretapping warrant.
5. Mailing CDs/DVDs/thumb drives/hard drives back and forth. They now
make an external open-frame device that you can hot plug and hot unplug
serial ATA hard drives into/out of.

I'm probably forgetting something, but I don't think so.

-WY3X


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AA4PB on October 03, 2010, 01:44:25 PM
You forgot that one of his requirements is that the system bandwidth be limited only the the computer which means that at a minimum the "network" has to handle 100Mbps. That certainly leaves out dialup.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KI4JGT on October 05, 2010, 01:41:25 AM
I love you guys!  :) Hams can always dream the impossible without getting in trouble with other hams.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KQ6Q on December 29, 2010, 01:04:26 PM
Have you considered creating a private Yahoo! group, open by invitation only? You can store files in a library accessible only to group members. It works, and the price is right. I belong to several special-interest groups, a couple of them public, and one of them is private. The price is right!


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KG4RUL on December 29, 2010, 06:31:20 PM
Umm. Basically it's encrypted to obscure the information from being read by other people.

Umm. Basically, that makes it a no go for Amateur Radio.

I'm doing some research on the internet and trying to make it faster. I'm trying to make an open network, comparable to the internet with these extra qualities.

There are thousands of people with billions of dollars of backing behind them working towards this very same goal.  Not a snowball's chance in hades of you being to do better.

- Every user could potentially get an unlimited connection
- Every Server/Website could have an unlimited connection to everyone using it!

How much bandwidth would be required to accomplish the above two goals?

- Every server/Website cold have the ability to experience 100% uptime

Even with constant sacrifices to the propagation Gods, this is a HUGE stretch!

- All communications could be completely confidential between the two individuals talking and no one else.

By definition, this is NOT possible to legally implement using Amateur Radio.

- All using the current set of protocols we are currently using (TCP/IP)
- No one could monitor your communications

See above.

- HTML could be made simpler and still maintain it's (complete) functionality

Changing an international standard?  Good luck!

- The Internet could be FREE (No Price)
- While maintaining proper authentication protocols (people would still be able to be traced for illegal stuff)
- The only hardware required would be a MODERN computer (Windows Vista/7, Linix, Apple)

I have a blueprint, but no idea how to make it work. The only thing I can program in is BASIC and as the old saying goes, you can use any programming language for any purpose, but some are a little better prepared to handle the program you want to write. I'm studying Python, but it makes me want to hit my computer with a sledge hammer. Everything requires a function to make it work.

**EDIT: Oh and anyone wishing to help me program this is welcome.


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: N6AJR on January 07, 2011, 01:19:30 PM
How about some variation of IRLP or echolink??


Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: KF6QEX on January 07, 2011, 11:05:41 PM
I wrote a semi long diatribe but decided to summarize it:
Ok... Enough. Stop now.

In reading the thread the issues evolved from "sharing files between two computers 500 miles away" to creating a new Internet with no boundaries and unlimited everything and simplifying HTML.

Hence, Ok... Enough. Stop now.



Title: RE: How would you share files between two computers without the internet?
Post by: AJ3O on January 22, 2011, 07:41:54 AM
I just stumbled upon this thread, and quite frankly, my head hurts.

I guess if you could tap into our parallel universe and utilize the gravity wave propagation between the two, controlling the transfer of your information by quantum entanglement and temporarily store the info, your idea would be semi-feasible. I think that the hard part wouldn't be preserving the info, just trying to figure out how to insure the entanglement and the prevention from loss of information once one end of the entanglement has been modified. I'll reference the problem of Schrödinger's cat and let you deduce the implications and applications of this idea.


Remember: The spoon is not there............