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eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: K4HAT on October 19, 2010, 07:07:37 PM



Title: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4HAT on October 19, 2010, 07:07:37 PM
Can the group explain to me what happened over the years to HF ?
I have been a ham for a while now and recently upgraded....
OH BOY.    Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected the rude, nasty and downright filthy language and verbotten topics on almost every band.  Childrens band sounds meek and mild compared to some of the hams I hear and it seems worse on 80 then any where else. Man you would NEVER talk that way on any of the five repeaters I trustee and if you did I would come hunt you down.
What happened ?????    Did 11 meters spill over to what used to be civil people's radio ?  I noticed it does not seem to "creep" into 20
much but it's still there, kinda like a really bad mold.  I was waiting tonite for a qso with an old buddy on 3910 and I could not beleive my ears.   Started writing down calls but soon realized it was every one I heard ! 


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4RKY on October 19, 2010, 08:43:12 PM
It's on 20m as well just not as much. At times around 14.272 +/-  two or three get in there thinking they are still in the Navy! (always the same ones) 80m is the poster child of bad manners and grown men that never grew up. But it seems to be in a certain small range of frequencies fortunately. I try to stay below 3.950 when I am there unless I am in CW mode with the exception of 3.880 early in the morning. I was taken back too when I first became a General (I actually blushed from embarrasement). ???


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W1ITT on October 19, 2010, 09:03:51 PM
Back in the "good old days", when the FCC monitored the bands and people actually received "pink slips" for infractions, manners were at least a bit better.  Even hearing that someone else got a pink slip seemed to provide just enough fear to keep most fellows on the straight and narrow.  Those who worked hard to study for their exams and sit through the code tests seemed to value their license more than many lads nowadays.
The FCC no longer has the funds to bother much with us, and some notable miscreants seem untouchable to their efforts to remove them from the air.  We used to take pride in being a self policing service, but ostracism seems to matter little to the current trouble makers.  I suspect that some of them even enjoy it.  The Commission gave up on 27 mhz enforcement, and they seem to have given up on the Amateur Service as well.  Given the state of the Federal budget, I don't see things getting any better in the future. 


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: G3RZP on October 20, 2010, 01:11:20 AM
Is it a case that in many ways, it's so easy to get on the air these days that people do not realise what a privilege it is to have a ham radio licence??


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W8DPC on October 20, 2010, 04:27:12 AM
Is it a case that in many ways, it's so easy to get on the air these days that people do not realise what a privilege it is to have a ham radio licence??

No, it's a case that in 2010 more and more people don't care if what they do or say offends others. Operators are a sample of the general population. Unfortunately today it's considered exercising your free speech if you curse, are rude, and take an "I don't care what you think" attitude. You see it just as much walking down the street as you do on the air. Fifty years ago you didn't have that.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N4UM on October 20, 2010, 09:07:00 AM
You seldom see it on the digital modes or on CW.  It seems to be a combination of extemely poor taste conspiring with the first amendment.  Freedom of speech is accompanied by freedom not to listen.  Nobody forces you to listen to this garbage and it's readily avoidable.  If you don't like it, don't listen to it. 


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KE4DRN on October 20, 2010, 07:17:29 PM
hi,

too bad the FCC still lives in the dark ages with
tiny $10,000 fines.

The FCC needs to update the fines so those that
abuse their license are held accountable.

$100,000 fines would help to put a stop to the bad element.
Nothing can stop it 100% but FCC should start somewhere.

A 10% whistle blowers fee to those that report the bad guys
can't hurt either.


73 james


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KC0MMY on October 20, 2010, 07:41:09 PM
It's not just on phone, either.  I left my rig parked on 14.230 about a week ago to see if I could capture some SSTV images.  Let's just say some of them were quite inappropriate, which was surprising.  I can deal with "weird" images, but inappropriate ones?  I don't need to see it.  I, too, was shocked to hear some of what is/was said on 80/75 meters when I was spinning the dial several months back.  I still visit that segment of the radio spectrum, but I wear the headphones when others are within earshot.

It's really too bad, because I've been trying to get my 11-year-old daughter and 10-year-old nephew into amateur radio.  It's kind of embarrassing to show them just how interesting this radio service is when you hear "grown" adults use coarse language.  How can young people respect adults when the older adults don't even respect each other?  

To the offenders:  Can/should you expect others to respect you when you use that language?  Think of the image that's being displayed to the globe.  I always thought that amateur radio was supposed to promote international goodwill.  I don't think using foul language and displaying inappropriate images on SSTV constitutes the promotion of international goodwill.  

Another experience I had with foul language on the amateur bands was when I was in Massachusetts in the summer of '09.  My family and I went on a camping trip with a bunch of friends.  Our friend's son took an interest in amateur radio.  I decided to fire up the 2M/70CM mobile radio and see if I could hit any of the local repeaters.  I found one which had a very interesting net.  Unfortunately, one bad egg ruined it because he apparently had diarrhea of the mouth.  I calmly explained to the boy that this isn't a part of amateur radio.  I'm not sure if the offender was licensed or not, but it was quite embarrassing, to say the least.

There's a way to attract youth, but using foul language isn't a good way to do it.  Anyone can be vulgar.  It doesn't take a lot of talent, or brain cells for that matter.  To find someone who can carry on an intelligent -- or at least an interesting -- conversation, regardless of how you communicate, seems to be lacking.

K4HAT:  Don't be discouraged. There are still a lot of good operators out there.  We just need to come out of the woodwork!

I hope to catch you on the air!

73 de Andre
KC0MMY


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KE5TGG on October 21, 2010, 06:08:07 PM
I haven't even been on the airwaves yet, just started studying for my General Class License. But hearing about this doesn't surprise me at all. This problem (rude, obnoxious behavior) extends into countless other areas of day-to-day living, too. I think that "KX8N" hit the nail on the head, that there are so many people who simply don't care if their rudeness, profanity, or obnoxious attitude offends someone else.

I wish the FCC would crack down on these people, giving each violator JUST ONE warning. Then, if they do it again, PERMANENTLY revoke their license, and tell them that if they are found transmitting again they will face a very large fine and possible jail time to boot. If current laws are not that strict, then they should be changed to fit the times we're in now, be enforced without wavering, and done so as much as possible. Maybe if the FCC levied very significant penalities on these people, the word would start getting around that they (FCC) MEAN what they say about RULES that govern conduct/speech when on the air.

Chris


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: G3RZP on October 22, 2010, 01:40:30 AM
I guess the problem is that people don't realise that exercising the right to free speech also means that it should be done responsibly, with regard to others.

Listen to the DX pile ups for other examples. CW is better, but still full of lids who call when the DX has come back to someone else...


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W7ETA on October 22, 2010, 03:51:47 PM
"Can the group explain to me what happened over the years to HF ?"

Nope.

People will have their opinions, but that is all they are, opinions.

75 meters had weirdos, and angry child like ops when I got my first ticket in the late 70s.

I find plenty of delightful ops to chat with.

73
Bob


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K3RMX on October 22, 2010, 04:01:37 PM
Enough with the free speech argument.  It does not apply to what we say on the radio.

The First Amendment's free speech clause in the US Constitution only prevents the federal government from censoring political discussions that were not allowed in most other countries.  Think of former (and still probably current) USSR/Russia, China, N. Korea.  It does not give anyone the right to say anything at any time.  Commercials cannot say anything they want to, such as my product is 200% better than my competitor's product, unless the advertiser can show that it is true.  Tobacco companies have not been able to advertise on television since 1970, I think.

Pornography is not entitled to "free speech."  No one can yell "fire" in a crowded theater unless there really is a fire.  Standards of decency still apply; it's just that the FCC, along with most other government agencies, no longer has the resources to police what is said on the air.

Years ago, as a teenager just "stretching my wings" by being as obnoxious and crude as I could be to most adults lasted until I said the wrong thing to my father one time; when I recovered from the headache and awful taste remaining in my mouth, I realized that comments, verbal or written, have consequences, intended or not.  It is only because "the law" frowns upon one person wrongfully hitting another more than it frowns on crude language that a lot of people don't physically stop one person's offensive language directly.

Besides, if the only way of expressing yourself is to curse, you don't have a sufficient vocabulary to express whatever you want to say in a descriptive manner that does not need curse words to communicate.  Ignorant people can't express themselves any other way; smart people can.

I've said my piece.  If you disagree, feel free to do so by explaining why you disagree, not by looking me up and punching out my lights.

Steve
k3rmx
(and basic, everyday lawyer at the end of a long week)


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W3LK on October 22, 2010, 05:31:21 PM

Besides, if the only way of expressing yourself is to curse, you don't have a sufficient vocabulary to express whatever you want to say in a descriptive manner that does not need curse words to communicate.  Ignorant people can't express themselves any other way; smart people can.

Steve
k3rmx
(and basic, everyday lawyer at the end of a long week)

<clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap> <clap>


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4DPK on October 22, 2010, 07:28:49 PM
Several of you have given excellent reasons why the condition exists, but not one has admitted it is just as much our fault as anyone else’s.

If you hear foul language on the air and don’t speak out against it, you are allowing it to continue because of your silence.  

What would you do if someone who spouted filth with every breath joined you and your friends at a table in a restaurant?  How would you react if someone stood beside your family in line at a movie and used loud, foul language?

It is simply not good manners to use bad language when you are unsure of your audience.

I curse.  My wife says it is the greatest of my many failings.

But I am very careful on the air.  I have occasionally (too often) let something slip, but I have frequently let it be known that I don't think the ham bands are an appropriate forum for such behavior.

I get cussed out occasionally, but at least they know where I stand.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N0AZZ on October 25, 2010, 07:23:34 AM
That is what they make the big knob on the radio for or just pull the plug that is the way it is. All I work is DX SSB and have had few problems in 4 yrs on HF many of those you speak of have been around for a long time back to the day of FCC exams.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: AD6KA on October 25, 2010, 07:47:44 PM
K3RMX
Quote
Pornography is not entitled to "free speech."
Unfortunately, aside from children being involved, it is protected.
See Supreme Court decisions"
Butler v. Michigan 
Ginsberg v. New York
Miller v. California  and others.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K3ZL on October 26, 2010, 06:52:52 PM
I agree, and I don't like it at all either.  But it may get worse.  Popular Communications magazine reported in it's October issue that a court has ruled against the FCC's rules regarding the prohibition of bad language during hours when kids are likely to be listening or watching.  Here's the part that concerns me:  They are saying this turn of events could effect all FCC services including the Amateur Radio service as well.  Sorry I passed that magazine off to a friend or I would quote page number.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KD8IZZ on October 26, 2010, 07:10:52 PM
It's on 20m as well just not as much. At times around 14.272 +/-  two or three get in there thinking they are still in the Navy! (always the same ones) 80m is the poster child of bad manners and grown men that never grew up. But it seems to be in a certain small range of frequencies fortunately. I try to stay below 3.950 when I am there unless I am in CW mode with the exception of 3.880 early in the morning. I was taken back too when I first became a General (I actually blushed from embarrasement). ???


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: AD6KA on October 26, 2010, 07:35:01 PM
I agree, and I don't like it at all either.  But it may get worse.  Popular Communications magazine reported in it's October issue that a court has ruled against the FCC's rules regarding the prohibition of bad language during hours when kids are likely to be listening or watching.  Here's the part that concerns me:  They are saying this turn of events could effect all FCC services including the Amateur Radio service as well. 

THAT'S disgusting. I thought Amateur Radio was a privilege, not a right.  ???

Thanks for that info, K.C.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4DPK on October 27, 2010, 08:05:24 AM
It isn’t a matter of whether a man has the right of free speech.  It has to do with common decency and courtesy, and respect for others’ feelings.

Even if the First Amendment does give someone the right to say whatever he pleases in whatever forum he wishes, it follows that it also empowers you to voice your opinion about it.  My contention is the majority of hams want the bands to be clean and available for anyone to hear what goes on without shock or embarrassment, but most of ’em are too timid to have a go at the ones who are causing the trouble.

One could take the position it’s not the relatively few that pollute the airwaves who are the problem, but the large number of us who tolerate it without saying anything that allows the condition to persist.

This thread reminds me of what’s wrong in our country.  Everyone complains, but many either don’t vote at all or vote for the incumbent, so it continues. 

Neither of these conditions will change unless you as an individual take it on yourself to do something positive.

Qui tacit contentit.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K3ZL on October 27, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
I agree, and I don't like it at all either.  But it may get worse.  Popular Communications magazine reported in it's October issue that a court has ruled against the FCC's rules regarding the prohibition of bad language during hours when kids are likely to be listening or watching.  Here's the part that concerns me:  They are saying this turn of events could effect all FCC services including the Amateur Radio service as well. 

THAT'S disgusting. I thought Amateur Radio was a privilege, not a right.  ???

Thanks for that info, K.C.

Here's a link to that news about the court decision: http://www.w5yi.org/ama_news_article.php?id=483


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4DPK on October 28, 2010, 06:39:23 PM
Everyone seems to be outraged by foul language on the air.  I wonder, how many of you have ever openly called anyone down for using such language?  My guess?  Not many.  Of all the arguments I’ve ever heard in my 55+ years on the air, the ones over bad language, except for the ones I started, can be counted on one hand.

There is a growing tendency it seems, to rely on the government to correct problems so we don’t have to become personally involved.  Would you rely on the government if someone cursed in the presence of your family?  

I once had a preacher for a next-door neighbor.  His young son came over on an errand, and happened to hear a very inappropriate remark on my receiver.  When he left, I unloaded on the guy who made the remark, but the kid’s father unloaded on me that evening, and I don’t blame him.  I’d have done the same.    

We constantly hear from each other that ham radio is dying-- We have to get more young people interested.  Doesn’t that seem a bit inconsistent with our tolerance of off-color language on the ham bands?   You still think the First Amendment stands in the way of common decency?

Not too long ago, a young man was complaining on e-ham’s forum that his license was being held up by FCC.  Turned out the fellow was a registered child molester.  Thank you, Laura Smith!  The really surprising thing to me was how many of the participants in the thread actually defended the guy and wanted his license reinstated!  I guess they don’t have kids.

The future of ham radio depends on our young people.  I’m an old man, but I certainly don’t plan to leave them a legacy of foul language and doubtful safety if I can help it.

I think you folks ought to be discussing things like whether ARRL should publish OO reports in QST, and whether ARRL and CQ should deny membership to certain individuals.

I also think you should stand up for what you think is right.  

You gonna wait around on the government to solve all your problems?

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk 


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K3ZL on October 29, 2010, 06:02:30 AM

I also think you should stand up for what you think is right.  

You gonna wait around on the government to solve all your problems?

Great idea on publishing OO reports in the magazines.  It may have the same impact as publishing names in the local newspaper of arestees. Also, it seems to me that that the language and subject matter are usually among hams who know each other and become too comfortable in their rag chews.  I have never had a ham use language when in QSO with me.  But, if they did, I would mention it.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: WB4BYQ on October 29, 2010, 01:33:15 PM
I have been a ham for 38 plus years.  i heard some of this then and thru the years.  i don't hear much on 40 and up.  the 80 meter band has its problems with certain groups, i don't listen to them.  there are still many good groups and nets on 75/80.  people are different now.
Amateur radio is not causing these problems, it is people who lack self respect and no respect to who may be listing.  just look at the television these days and the movies.

Amateur radio is still very much an enjoyable hobby and service, and i encourge you to be a good example and have fun.

WB4BYQ


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W8AAZ on November 06, 2010, 02:34:16 PM
Actually these days I hear little of it as what I do is this- I think of going in and turning on the rig to tune around some.  Then I forget what I was gonna do and never get to it.  Wish the highest bands would open up some more.  Less of that going on up there because the band fades or changes before you have a big ragchew, the subjects that offend apparently do not have time to come around in the QSO!  Maybe that is why some guys become DXers and contesters and never ragchew on phone. 


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: WB4IUY on November 07, 2010, 01:08:06 PM
"Can the group explain to me what happened over the years to HF ?"

Nope.
People will have their opinions, but that is all they are, opinions.
75 meters had weirdos, and angry child like ops when I got my first ticket in the late 70s.
I find plenty of delightful ops to chat with.
73
Bob

Like Bob said, it's always been like this. Got my ticket in '74, and if you hunted around, you could find bad ops, then. It's really a very small portion of spectrum that has this kind of activity. I simply spin the dial if I stumble onto it. Ops like that typically hang out in little clusters, here and there. I'm on the air nearly every day, and seldom ever hear this stuff. If I want to go looking for it, I know it's there, but I find plenty of folks to QSO with on all modes that know how to behave and I have a great time.

Don't let chatter on the internet paint a negative picture for you, of what HF is really like. It's kinda like trying to learn what a KISS (or any other band) concert was like without actually going to one. Get on the air, call CQ, and have fun.

Dave WB4IUY
www.WB4IUY.net


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4DPK on November 07, 2010, 06:02:26 PM
Others have said:  "Like Bob said, it's always been like this"

Absolutely not true.

In the mid fifties, we had our characters, like one who specified "No lids, no kids, no space cadets..." when he called CQ.

But we most certainly did not have the nearly continuous flow of profanity and, often, obsenity, that we hear nowadays on some frequencies.  My own observation and recollection is that things took a turn for the worse starting in about the mid-sixties, then worsened into the seventies.

Ham radio, at one time, was a very disciplined undertaking.  Its participants had in common a strong interest in electronics and communication, and most conversations consisted of those topics.  Groups became familiar and friendly, but never so familiar as to forget that profanity was against regulations.  Courtesy was commonplace, and most ops were well-mannered and well-meaning.

Disagree if you like, but that's the way I saw it.  I think it does ham radio a dis-service, and it confounds any attempt at improvement to simply say, "It was always that way".

It was not.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K1CJS on November 08, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
AS has been said, when the FCC monitored the bands they were somewhat better, but since then they have gone to the dogs.  Too many people think that free speech is the right to use gutter talk anywhere they want to.  That's really too bad, but there isn't much that can be done--especially since those people have their own 'cliques' that use the same language.

All that can be done is to turn the dial, switch bands--or shut off the rig.  It's unfortunate that it has come to that, but that's the way it is.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N2EY on November 08, 2010, 04:32:19 PM
I agree with what K4DPK wrote. He is right on the money about how it used to be.

Yes, we had "characters" like ol' Mike who would call "CQ, no kids, no lids, no space cadets, Class A operators only". But the reason they are remembered even today is that they were the rare exception, and the worst that could be found on the amateur bands.

I could write a long essay about why it changed so much, but that's another discussion. What I'm interested in is how things can be improved.

I don't know if on-the-air confrontation is the right approach. Some of the worst folks might actually enjoy it, having a target to cuss at!

OTOH I don't think the "turn the dial" approach is the right one, either. Here's why:

1) You can't un-ring a bell. You can only turn the dial after the fact. If you have visitors or family members in the shack, the damage is done, regardless of what you do afterwards. If a would-be ham with a receiver hears objectionable stuff, what impression does it make? Unlike broadcasting, you can't tell ahead of time what kind of "programming" to expect.

2) If you take the pro-active step of avoiding various frequencies and modes, you may protect yourself and others in the shack from the bad stuff. I rarely operate, or even listen to, 'phone for just this reason.

But if we all take that approach, we are essentially abandoning those frequencies and modes to the bad apples. And over time there will be more of them, and there will be more frequencies and modes to avoid. Eventually there will be nowhere you can go.

3) Amateur radio exists because The Government allows it. It's a privilege, not a right.

Some countries have no amateur radio, or have it so restricted that it's all but impossible to get on the air legally. Our rules could be made much more draconian if the FCC wanted.

And it's not just FCC. Imagine you're applying for a building permit to put up a tower, and somebody opposes it. Try making a case for amateur radio after the opposer plays a tape of somebody behaving badly on the ham bands. Sure. you can claim *you* don't do that stuff, but the damage is done.

ISTM that too many folks get all worked up about their rights but forget that every right and every privilege carries with it a related responsibility. Being licensed to operate a radio transmitter carries with it the responsibility to do so with the highest possible standards, not the lowest.

So what do we do?

One possibility is to confront the bad apples off the air. We all can't be OOs but if we know who the bad behavers are, we can send them cards saying that what they're doing is simply wrong.

Another possibility is to record them and send the tapes and complaints to FCC. While The Government will never solve all these problems, if we don't complain and give evidence, they will never solve any of these problems.

There's also the force of good example and the power of numbers. Imagine huge numbers of us descending on the bands and operating in a courteous and appropriate manner. Imagine making the bad apples the rare exception by simply outnumbering them.

This past weekend I operated the CW SS. The lower ends of 80, 40 and 20 (and maybe other bands) were wall-to-wall with signals - and I heard nothing objectionable. Yes there was QRM, but folks didn't get in a furor over it.

All IMHO

I got interested in amateur radio at a very young age in large part because I heard hams on 75 using AM and having a good time. A G-rated, family-appropriate good time. That was more than 43 years ago. I see absolutely no reason we can't have that kind of amateur radio today. If anything, we can do better, because we have more and better technology and resources.

73 de Jim, N2EY


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: WB4IUY on November 10, 2010, 05:33:12 PM
Others have said:  "Like Bob said, it's always been like this"

Absolutely not true.

In the mid fifties, we had our characters, like one who specified "No lids, no kids, no space cadets..." when he called CQ.

Hi Phil and group,

Perhaps I'm a "greenhorn", since I only got my license in 1974. Perhaps as someone else said, maybe it's how _you_ remember it. I've known hams who got their tickets in the 40's and 50's. I've enjoyed many hours on the air with these guys, some who are now SK, talking about things from "back in the day". They have all had stories of exactly the same stuff we see on the air today. Perhaps not as many folks misbehaved, but there were a lot less hams back then as well.

Whatever... My point is, I don't hear this horrible and embarrasing chatter in my shack that some seem to fear. If I do...I'm a big boy. I move somewhere I feel comfortable. I doubt there's anything coming across ham radio that is any worse than what's on the broadcast TV these days. My shack isn't always filled with the general public whom I'm afraid such talk coming from my speaker would ruin ham radio forever. For that matter, I seldom even have someone in my home who is even slightly interested in ham radio. I guess we move in different circles. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us on this forum do just like I am right now... reading the internet and listing to the radio in the radio room of my home, right here by myself, while the wife is watching TV and the kids are out doing something else. For most of us, it's a hobby, and we participate without it being a family activity.

I'm 51 years old. I'll probably only enjoy ham radio another 25 years or so before I die. I'm not going to spend it worrying about how someone else acts. We don't see loads of kids interested in the hobby anymore. When I got my ticket at age 14, there were lots of other young folks doing the same. No one recruited me. I simply had an interest in radio, as did many others. Nowadays, this stuff isn't interesting to most of the kids. At some point, many of us tire in trying to get everyone else involved in the hobby and simply settle down to enjoy it for ourselves. I've helped many many many people get a ticket along the way, and probably 5% (tops!) are still active. In looking back at it, I wasted my time for the most part and should have been doing something for myself. It might sound selfish, but it's the truth when I consider the amount of time took away fro family and poured into helping all those people who could actually care less for the most part, now. My wife AC4QD and I started a VE team in about '92. We taught classes at the tech twice/year, tested 80+ people every month, ran the local ham club, did everything we could think of to perpetuate the hobby. By the late 90's we were tired of trying to save the ham world, and some others picked up the VE Team to keep it running.

It's just my opinion, but I think ham radio will fade away within the next 50-75 years. I hope I'm wrong, but now I'm quite happy just working some DX, restoring old radios, and enjoying it for what it is before it's gone... a hobby to me with lots of friends to talk to. I try to help when there are situations that actually need it (ice storm, hurricane, etc), but it's not my focal point in life.
 
No one out there should be shaken up by hearing ugly talk or something they don't agree with on the air. Ham radio is full of folks from all walks of life. Most of us can spot a problem frequency within a few seconds, just move on. I'm on HF every night, and unless I'm trying to hang out on the upper end of 75 meters, I almost NEVER hear anything bad. That's way better than I can say for most resturants & clubs one might stop at, the local grocery store, etc. 

Ham radio is so loaded with great stuff, there's no need to get hung up on some little issues like this. Sure they're out there. They always will be. Get on the air, enjoy ham radio, and forget about these petty issues.

Dave WB4IUY
www.WB4IUY.net





Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K4DPK on March 24, 2012, 08:47:21 PM
 
No one out there should be shaken up by hearing ugly talk or something they don't agree with on the air. Ham radio is full of folks from all walks of life. Most of us can spot a problem frequency within a few seconds, just move on. I'm on HF every night, and unless I'm trying to hang out on the upper end of 75 meters, I almost NEVER hear anything bad. That's way better than I can say for most resturants & clubs one might stop at, the local grocery store, etc. 

Ham radio is so loaded with great stuff, there's no need to get hung up on some little issues like this. Sure they're out there. They always will be. Get on the air, enjoy ham radio, and forget about these petty issues.

Dave WB4IUY
www.WB4IUY.net



[/quote]

This describes precisely why the problem will never be fixed.

Phil C. Sr.
k4dpk


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KH6AQ on March 25, 2012, 05:31:16 AM
I stopped working phone 40 years ago partly to avoid the rude, crude, language. It's been all CW since then.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W8JX on March 25, 2012, 07:40:34 AM
I have been a Ham for over 40 years and I have spent most of my time on 40m SSB below 7200 these days and usually below 7170 too and except for contests I find it still pretty civil.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W8GP on March 25, 2012, 10:14:52 AM
I second that for 40m but I almost hate to advertise that fact! I avoid  listening to a lot of the meaningless drivel I find on the bands and often call CQ so I can have a one-on-one ragchew on my own terms. And on 80m my dial stops at 3800, it seems to be a LITTLE more civilized on the low end. Look for me on 40 and I'll be happy to talk to you about just about anything.
             73, Greg


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KG6BRG on March 25, 2012, 06:13:15 PM
You know, its really what you make of it.  At least in 6 land.  In over 12 years on HF I've only heard really bad language a handful of times.  All bands and areas have freqs where douche bags hang out, they attract each other.  Just spin the dial, for me I avoid 7.255 and 3.838.  Problem solved.  I have QSO's with lots of nice, interesting people, not the few turds that frequent the bands.  Cheers.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on March 26, 2012, 06:08:08 AM
The first post of this thread is a blatant exaggeration, and an over reaction to what is happening on HF. There is a small amount of garbage in particular areas within the HF bands, and it has always been there. The responses that follow the first post are all too predictable.
There are few disillusioned people who have convinced themselves that ham radio was once "ward cleaverish", and try to convince others of the same.  They are either senile or blantant liars.

Probably what made me laugh the most was the "writing down callsigns" comment. I immediately had a mental image of a 5th grade hall monitor getting his fellow classmates in trouble for running in the hall or chewing gum, then getting his butt kicked after school, lol.

Dave


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on March 26, 2012, 06:21:07 AM
Can the group explain to me what happened over the years to HF ?

OH BOY.    Never in my wildest dreams.... downright filthy language and verbotten topics on almost every band..... Man you would NEVER talk that way...... I would come hunt you down......could not beleive my ears.   Started writing down calls but soon realized it was every one I heard ! 

You don't get out much, do you?


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N0YXB on March 26, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
The first post of this thread is a blatant exaggeration, and an over reaction to what is happening on HF. There is a small amount of garbage in particular areas within the HF bands, and it has always been there. The responses that follow the first post are all too predictable.
There are few disillusioned people who have convinced themselves that ham radio was once "ward cleaverish", and try to convince others of the same.  They are either senile or blantant liars.


I totally agree.  Aside from those frequencies where lids (and worse) congregate I find the bands to be pretty civil.  And when you do run across something that offends you, the VFO is your friend.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W5LZ on March 28, 2012, 07:06:11 PM
While it's not a good 'excuse' for bad behavior, I hear at -least- as 'bad' language on the street as I ever have on the air (no matter what band).  That's from either gender, not just the male variety.  I have to admit that my 'mouth' is probably as 'dirty' as almost anyone's, but I really do try to control it.  That's because of personal values/standards.  There's very little I haven't heard before, but it can still surprise me at times.  As far as the 'kids' go, I have to suspect they've probably heard most of those 'bad' words before too.
There are limits, those limits are different for everyone.  If things go beyond my limits, I leave.  The frequency, the company I'm in, or the place I'm at, doesn't matter.  If asked why, I'll explain my self.  I modify my behavior to suit the people around me and I expect others to do the same thing, within limits.  I think that's about as 'normal'/average as you can get.  Don't like that?  Well, I'm sure you can think of something I'd say to that.  Maybe not the exact wording, but the same general reply.
 - Paul


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N0SQ on April 01, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
A friend of mine is an OO and he has provided info to the FCC but nothing is getting done. I guess the FCC doesn't have the money or the will to enforce the rules anymore. They could've kept a lot of these "bozos" out of the HF bands if they had kept the morse code requirement for licensing. If morse code isn't going to come back and there's no enforcement forthcoming, they ought to make everyone re-take the test on rules before a license can be renewed. I know some hams that said they would leave ham radio if they were required to re-take any portion of the test.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on April 02, 2012, 03:09:28 AM
They could've kept a lot of these "bozos" out of the HF bands if they had kept the morse code requirement for licensing.
Totally untrue. The Morse Code requirement being dropped has nothing to do with it. The most well known "bozos" were all licensed before the code was dropped. The largest fines have been earned by the same. The fools on 14.313 with their 10/4 good buddy talk were all licensed before the code requirement was dropped. The nut job broadcaster on 80 meters with his band of merry vomiteers is another example. The tired old argument that the no-code crowd brought a negative element to the HF bands is silly, biased, and based on ignorance, not fact.
The HF bands are for the most part, a fun place to be, for hams of any age. There are a few problem areas to avoid and that will probably never change.
The Amateur Radio community is tired of the complainers of the code requirement being dropped.
Move forward


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: WU0R on April 02, 2012, 11:43:37 AM
Sorry to hear of your "experience" you encountered tuning around, but honestly, idiots abound in all walks of life and amateur radio is a slice of that life, good or bad.  It isn't the longer licensed ops nor the newer "no-coders".  It is just that, a few bad apples in the basket that seem to get more publicity then they should.   There are far more numerous good ops out there.  You just have the smell the flowers for the field before you.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: N0SQ on April 02, 2012, 05:20:08 PM
The tired old argument that the no-code crowd brought a negative element to the HF bands is silly, biased, and based on ignorance, not fact.

"Thanks" for the insult, jerk. Maybe you're right but you could've been more tactful in your response.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on April 02, 2012, 09:34:47 PM

"Thanks" for the insult, jerk. Maybe you're right but you could've been more tactful in your response.


My response was appropriate, and accurate. Especially considering the fact that new hams have had to listen to that sort of garbage for many years. So who is the "jerk"? If you are unhappy with the hobby, pack it up, ebay it, give it away, smash it with a hammer, I don't give a damn either way.
Go and make your encouraging comments regarding the code requirement being dropped to a group of cub scouts just before they take their tech exam, or to any other group of people, young or old, who are interested in the hobby. Do your comments hurt, or help the hobby? Encourage?, or Discourage? A good Amateur Radio operator is also a mentor. Your comments are not conducive to such.


Good Luck,

W0DV


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: VK3DWZ on April 07, 2012, 09:59:26 PM
I'm afraid there will always be some potty-mouthed individuals on the air-waves. 

After almost abandoning Amateur Radio in the early 1980's when I was informed, in no uncertain terms that I was not to use the local 2M Repeater again--this was soon after I was first licenced--I decided to obtain an "upgraded" license and "try" H.F.  This was in 1984.

For 11 years I had a ball--'phone, RTTY and CW.  What fun!  Then, in 1995 it all came to a shuddering halt.  It seemed that every time I went on 40 metres there was some potty-mouthed individual ready with an earful of foul language, and abuse.  Not wanting to be subjected to this--or letting the family hear what was coming out of the loudspeaker--I was "restricted" to operating only when the family was not at home.  And, of course when the family was out there was usually no time to go on the air.

I continued operating RTTY/CW for a little while longer--at least there were no potty-mouthed individuals there, and the family couldn't read CW or what the Teleprinter was printing out (unless I showed them the print-out, of course)--but  the'joy' of operating as an Amateur Operator had all but evaporated. 

I used to be so happy on the bands--now I don't even listen to the bands any more, thanks to all that went on in 1995.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on April 07, 2012, 10:20:14 PM
I'm afraid there will always be some potty-mouthed individuals on the air-waves. 

After almost abandoning Amateur Radio in the early 1980's when I was informed, in no uncertain terms that I was not to use the local 2M Repeater again......



And why did this happen?


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: VK3DWZ on April 08, 2012, 01:21:02 AM
Hello, WODV:

I was not going to re-tell the "Repeater" incident here, but here goes.  After being licensed for just three weeks, I was told in no uncertain terms, both over the air and via telephone that this repeater was a "closed" one and I was to cease using it forthwith.  Now Repeaters in Australia are open to all Amateurs and no individual, or group, can choose to limit  the operation of a Repeater.  Nevertheless, the group that owned the local repeater had chosen to limit use of the Repeater to a handful of Amateurs, and that was that...no arguements.  All others were actively chased away!  

So, here I was with brand-new 2M equipment and no way of using it except when well away from our QTH.  I was not a happy camper, I can tell you.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K8CPA on April 14, 2012, 05:40:46 AM
Just an FYI....

There's always been a "bad boy" element to Ham Radio. There is a CD floating around that is called "The Best of 75"; Which has recordings on it from back in the 1960's. You know during "the AM/SSB wars" days. You be shocked to hear the stuff that went on. Although, it was quite tame, compared to the stuff you hear on there now.

The 80's were terrible. Especially during the 3.895 war says. Not to mention the stuff you used to hear on 14.313 back in the 1980's.

However, the stuff on 3840 at night, really makes me sad. How that goes on, is beyond me.

73 de Chuck K8CPA



Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: K1CJS on April 14, 2012, 12:12:47 PM
....They could've kept a lot of these "bozos" out of the HF bands if they had kept the morse code requirement for licensing....

That's a load of horse pucky.  All too many of the people who were required to take the code test (and who passed it) are the worst operator-abusers of the ham bands that there are.

Quote

....If morse code isn't going to come back and there's no enforcement forthcoming, they ought to make everyone re-take the test on rules before a license can be renewed. I know some hams that said they would leave ham radio if they were required to re-take any portion of the test.

And that would solve...nothing.  Even if operators were required to retake a rules and regulations test, anyone who believes that that would get rid of even a small part of the lids on the bands has been hitting the sauce too often and probably has rotted their brain away.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KD8Z on April 16, 2012, 03:48:26 PM
The First Amendment applies to all speach, not just political arguements.  It simply is not true what was said below about the First Amendment to the Constitution. 

KD8Z

Enough with the free speech argument.  It does not apply to what we say on the radio.

The First Amendment's free speech clause in the US Constitution only prevents the federal government from censoring political discussions that were not allowed in most other countries.  

Years ago, as a teenager just "stretching my wings" by being as obnoxious and crude as I could be to most adults lasted until I said the wrong thing to my father one time; when I recovered from the headache and awful taste remaining in my mouth, I realized that comments, verbal or written, have consequences, intended or not.  It is only because "the law" frowns upon one person wrongfully hitting another more than it frowns on crude language that a lot of people don't physically stop one person's offensive language directly.


Steve
k3rmx
(and basic, everyday lawyer at the end of a long week)


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: KD8Z on April 16, 2012, 03:52:30 PM
Sorry for all the boo boos, the program was frozen and I got tired of waiting.


The First Amendment applies to all speach, not just political arguements.  It simply is not true what was said below about the First Amendment to the Constitution. 

KD8Z

Enough with the free speech argument.  It does not apply to what we say on the radio.

The First Amendment's free speech clause in the US Constitution only prevents the federal government from censoring political discussions that were not allowed in most other countries.  

Years ago, as a teenager just "stretching my wings" by being as obnoxious and crude as I could be to most adults lasted until I said the wrong thing to my father one time; when I recovered from the headache and awful taste remaining in my mouth, I realized that comments, verbal or written, have consequences, intended or not.  It is only because "the law" frowns upon one person wrongfully hitting another more than it frowns on crude language that a lot of people don't physically stop one person's offensive language directly.


Steve
k3rmx
(and basic, everyday lawyer at the end of a long week)


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: ZENKI on April 20, 2012, 01:42:34 PM
In the past you could tune across the bands and hear so many great conversations, now that has largely disappeared.  Ham radio has become rather clinical. The hams who earned their license the hard way just do what they  have to do
on the bands and turn off as quickly as possible. Its what they hearing now on the air  which has broken  their great respect and nostalgia of what  a great hobby ham radio once was. All regulars on the air now seem to be a bitter people with  agendas who like to spew hate. You also get the impression that after tuning  around that everyone on ham radio these days has IQ of 0 and  has just been released from  drug rehab! Unfortunately the trash and stupid people have been let in and there is no way of correcting the mistake of incentive licensing.

I always wonder when society will decide that Doctor, Lawyers, engineering and other drop their standards so that  it can be easy for stupid and other undesirable  people to enter these profession. If it is unacceptable for these profession was this prank allowed to be pulled on the hobby of ham radio? This also reminds me of driving standards for certain races of people who should not be on the road!

If ham radio wanted to attract interested parties it would have been a safer bet to exempt anyone with a  Degree in Electrical, Electronic or communication engineering from having to sit the test. A simple regulation test would have been all that was needed for engineers. Ham radio would have had a huge influx of competent people if this approach was taken. Lets face it anyone who gets past 1 year of a engineering degree is technical more competent than brain dead CB'ers
who have no interest in learning anything technical. They just love making noises,, forcing what they learned on  the CB band onto others and contribute very little to the hobby.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: G3RZP on April 20, 2012, 03:41:33 PM
Some years ago now, I was in a usual daily 3.7 MHz SSB QSO with the late G6JP and a couple of other UK guys. The conversation got into the technicalities of tube PA stages and so on - it got a bit deep with references to Fourier transforms on transfer characteritsics and so on. A guy called in and asked, tongue in cheek, ' Are you guys licenced to talk about all this highly technical stuff ?' He was pointing out in his way that technical discussions were now so rare that most amateurs had no hope of following them - he did join in with very relevant comments, but it made it very obvious that real technical discussions were getting very rare indeed.

Admittedly, some fifteen years ago, I was called by an Italian on 20m who wanted to discuss in great detail a paper on receiver performance that I had presented at a professional conference in the US some ten years before that....

So you never know what interesting conversations can happen on the HF bands. I once had a 90m minute QSO with a guy in Iowa talking  about railroad train braking systems and the differences  between the UK and the US: he was locomotove 'engineer' (we call them drivers') and secretary of the local union branch.

Another time on 20m was with a guy mobile in Ohio: he'd gotten lost on the freeway and had not taken the  correct exit on the interstate. With the help of my US road atlas, I was able to sort him out........so there are still great things. But it doesn't seem so common now. That's another reason i tend to stay on CW.


Title: RE: New to HF and shocked by what I hear
Post by: W0DV on April 22, 2012, 07:02:26 PM
In the past you could tune across the bands and hear so many great conversations, now that has largely disappeared.  Ham radio has become rather clinical. The hams who earned their license the hard way just do what they  have to do
on the bands and turn off as quickly as possible. Its what they hearing now on the air  which has broken  their great respect and nostalgia of what  a great hobby ham radio once was. All regulars on the air now seem to be a bitter people with  agendas who like to spew hate. You also get the impression that after tuning  around that everyone on ham radio these days has IQ of 0 and  has just been released from  drug rehab! Unfortunately the trash and stupid people have been let in and there is no way of correcting the mistake of incentive licensing.
Oh bull, Ham Radio is still great. I'm using HF almost everyday, many great conversations, interesting topics, fun nets to participate in. Don't start in with the "hams who earned their license"  crap. HR is still a great hobby, I QSO with interesting people almost everyday, from all walks of life. I have QSL cards from priests, pastors, airline pilots, surgeons, musicians, physicists, factory workers, truck drivers, you name it. HR is far from dull. It is in great shape. No one wants to read the negative, untruthful garbage that you spew. YOU are the problem with HR, and others like you that whine like little girls. With every change the HR hobby has went through in the many years that it has been around, there has always been a few whiners that complained about the change, no matter what it was. Thats the way it was, is,  and thats the way it will always be. You are just one of those guys that has a difficult time with change. You are frustrated over the changes, and you feel like you are being left out in the cold, so you hate everyone that is involved with the change, because you can't adjust.

Get out of the hobby if you have such a low opinion of it, lol. No one wants to hear it.