eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: K1LEM on May 21, 2011, 12:07:26 PM



Title: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K1LEM on May 21, 2011, 12:07:26 PM
 ;)

I am always amazed by how some people, which seems to be growing, have not a clue about reasonable separation of transmissions as a physical bandwidth requirement.

For example, operating on 40 meters and suddenly having a station move within one or two kilohertz, usually in my passband, and call CQ or relocate a qso booted off from some other frequency.

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

A station inside another's passband is not splattering nor am I if you move inside that boundary.

I have often thought with shoes dropping and lesser qualified operators, the final solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB. Most now do this by convention, however that choice might be engineered out of the next generation of dumbed down ham transceivers.

It might in fact conserve band space and prevent a lot of brush fires.

I might also say, no NET owns a frequency anymore than any two or more stations in QSO do. Read Part 97.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K9FON on May 21, 2011, 12:28:03 PM
Yup, blame the no coders. Its always their fault right? No coders and newer hams never do anything right, right???
Heres a quarter go pi** and moan to someone who cares!!!


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K3DCW on May 21, 2011, 12:36:27 PM
Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

There is no requirement for 3 kHz separation, just like there is no requirement for 3 kHz of bandwidth in a SSB transmission.  Many hams run a lot smaller bandwidth.  You are just used to the greater dynamic range offered by the 3 kHz bandwidth.

Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth.  Many contesters use 2.4kHz or even as small as 1.8kHz to get their signal out just that much better.  True, it isn't the best dynamic range, but it get's the job done and allows for more congestion on the bands. 

That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someone's passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: W7ETA on May 21, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
Was the same way in the late 70s when I got my General ticket.

People complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

When we got the New Bands, no contests allowed on them, people complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

People complained about nets starting up on their frequency.

People complained that there was CW in their phone area.

People complained about appliance operators ruining the hobby.

People complained about multiple choice questions, dumming down the hobby.

People complained that other ops weren't operating their stations the way the complainer knew they should.

People complained about the use of Q-codes on phone.

People complained that The Russian Woodpecker took over a band (well.  At least that has changed!)

People complained that they had to learn CW even though they would never use it.

People complained about having to drive to an FCC office to take their test.

People complained about having to wait 30 days to retake a test.

People complained that a few years ago The League did something they didn't like. So.  They hated The League and would NEVER!! support them.

73
Bob


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2EY on May 21, 2011, 01:26:23 PM
Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

There is no requirement for 3 kHz separation, just like there is no requirement for 3 kHz of bandwidth in a SSB transmission.  Many hams run a lot smaller bandwidth. 

I think that may be the key to the problem.

Suppose Ham #1 is using a 3 kHz filter with relatively wide skirts - say a 2:1 shape factor. Ham #2 is using a 1.8 kHz filter with very sharp skirts - say a 1.5 to 1 shape factor.

Ham #1 will hear a much wider slice of the band than Ham #2. Meanwhile, Ham #2 can get quite close to another QSO without hearing it.

Do you see the problem?

73 de Jim, N2EY

and a "Me too!" to what Bob, W7ETA said.




Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K1LEM on May 21, 2011, 01:30:41 PM
Using well adjusted sideband transmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.


Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth. 
That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someones passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave

Dave, all good points. The solution which isn't going to happen, isn't greater operator competency. Its designing radios that can't be used in certain ways.
We should realize in a lot of the world the power limits are more than 6 db (one s unit ) below ours.
That would stop a lot of the tresspassing and interference.

Do you think that likely? No, me either.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KB0OXD on May 21, 2011, 02:24:17 PM
Was the same way in the late 70s when I got my General ticket.

People complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

When we got the New Bands, no contests allowed on them, people complained that a contest took over their rag chew areas.

People complained about nets starting up on their frequency.

People complained that there was CW in their phone area.

People complained about appliance operators ruining the hobby.

People complained about multiple choice questions, dumming down the hobby.

People complained that other ops weren't operating their stations the way the complainer knew they should.

People complained about the use of Q-codes on phone.

People complained that The Russian Woodpecker took over a band (well.  At least that has changed!)

People complained that they had to learn CW even though they would never use it.

People complained about having to drive to an FCC office to take their test.

People complained about having to wait 30 days to retake a test.

People complained that a few years ago The League did something they didn't like. So.  They hated The League and would NEVER!! support them.

73
Bob
People also complained when the No-Code Technician license came out, saying that it would turn Ham Radio into the next CB.  Guess who's doing that NOW.....  >:(

Cheers & 73  ;D

Pat


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KE3WD on May 21, 2011, 02:54:16 PM
Sounds like someone ought to spend the money on the filter...   :o


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K0OD on May 21, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
Quote
solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB.

Or QSY to a very dead 60 meter band that has channels (at least in the U.S.), all USB by law.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K3DCW on May 21, 2011, 04:00:51 PM
Using well adjusted sideband transmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.


Using 3kHz and 100w, you are putting out a slightly weaker signal than someone running 2.4kHz and the same 100w due to spreading that energy across a greater bandwidth. 
That being said, there is no excuse for jumping into someones passband and calling away, interrupting an ongoing QSO.  That's just bad manners.

73

Dave

Dave, all good points. The solution which isn't going to happen, isn't greater operator competency. Its designing radios that can't be used in certain ways.
We should realize in a lot of the world the power limits are more than 6 db (one s unit ) below ours.
That would stop a lot of the tresspassing and interference.

Do you think that likely? No, me either.


No, not likely. 


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K9FON on May 22, 2011, 10:39:28 AM
I've always thought ham radio was a hobby someting to have as something to have fun with and not get all bent out of shape about. I guess if one doesnt like what he/she hears one can always just shut off the radio and walk away! I dont let the crap and bad ops stress me out.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: AA4HA on May 22, 2011, 03:52:46 PM
I've always thought ham radio was a hobby someting to have as something to have fun with and not get all bent out of shape about. I guess if one doesnt like what he/she hears one can always just shut off the radio and walk away! I dont let the crap and bad ops stress me out.
Agreed, life is too short.

Tisha


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: MAGNUM257 on May 22, 2011, 06:56:03 PM
;)

I am always amazed by how some people, which seems to be growing, have not a clue about reasonable separation of transmissions as a physical bandwidth requirement.

For example, operating on 40 meters and suddenly having a station move within one or two kilohertz, usually in my passband, and call CQ or relocate a qso booted off from some other frequency.

Using well adjusted sideband tranmitters, requires a clear three kilohertz separation either down stream or up stream, depending on USB, or LSB mode of transmission.

A station inside another's passband is not splattering nor am I if you move inside that boundary.

I have often thought with shoes dropping and lesser qualified operators, the final solution might be channels, similar to CB. Just dial in channel one LSB. Now with this comes a caveat that all operators on a band conform to LSB or USB. Most now do this by convention, however that choice might be engineered out of the next generation of dumbed down ham transceivers.

It might in fact conserve band space and prevent a lot of brush fires.

I might also say, no NET owns a frequency anymore than any two or more stations in QSO do. Read Part 97.

Did you ever consider the fact that they may not know that you are one khz above or below them? Just because you can hear them doesn't mean they can hear you? But you already know that because you are a knowledgeable radio operator, right?  I would bet that most of the time it is NOT intentional,.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KG4YMC on May 22, 2011, 09:04:43 PM
I"M curious,would he also be complaining about the 30 meter band, ? it is the one with channels? I don't have a radio for it .HOW is that working out? yea, channnels is a great idea, worked for cb didn't it ? what planet are you on?  My radio is almost 30 years old, and have to problem with slectivity if someone is operating ok , I also have a filter between my ears called a brain, and  a good listener shouln't have a problem with some splatter, I am sure my ten watts splatters all over the band, get real ...  I'll conceed some foreign stations can splatter a lot , but like they say, don't stress out, turn the dial, chill out , regroup or read e ham for a laugh .   by the way, looked on the internet, they still sell geritol, take a swig and chill out ha ha . kg4ymc


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: W3LK on May 23, 2011, 12:40:36 PM
I"M curious,would he also be complaining about the 30 meter band, ? it is the one with channels?

No, 30m is not channelized; 60m is.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: WU0R on May 23, 2011, 01:27:40 PM
Yup, blame the no coders. Its always their fault right? No coders and newer hams never do anything right, right???
Heres a quarter go pi** and moan to someone who cares!!!

Honestly, I didn't notice an inferrance to no-coders or implications thereof.  I think you may be a bit overly sensitive for some reason.  What the poster states is a common problem on HF.  Yes, there are lot of lesser experienced ops out there for sure, some came from no-code and some are just plain lacking the time and experience.  I believe the poster is just posting his frustration.  I hear it and experience it also. 

So, sorry you feel "profiled" by the poster...but honestly, it is a long standing problem on the bands...a general lack of courtesy by a minority of the ops out there...


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: AE4RV on May 23, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Yup, blame the no coders. Its always their fault right? No coders and newer hams never do anything right, right???
Heres a quarter go pi** and moan to someone who cares!!!

Honestly, I didn't notice an inference to no-coders or implications thereof.  I think you may be a bit overly sensitive for some reason.  What the poster states is a common problem on HF.  Yes, there are lot of lesser experienced ops out there for sure, some came from no-code and some are just plain lacking the time and experience.  I believe the poster is just posting his frustration.  I hear it and experience it also. 

So, sorry you feel "profiled" by the poster...but honestly, it is a long standing problem on the bands...a general lack of courtesy by a minority of the ops out there...


I agree. The OP even used tactful language.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KG4YMC on May 23, 2011, 07:54:52 PM
60 METERS,  my mistake , sorry /kg4ymc


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KG4YMC on May 28, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
60m. sorry I stand corrected, seems like having trouble with  interference from  radar , woodpecker  sounds kg4ymc


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: G3RZP on May 29, 2011, 04:53:42 AM
What I don't understand is exactly what, in this context, is meant by bandwidth?

Bandwidth of a transmission can be defined by the necessary bandwidth, the occupied bandwidth, the 99% bandwidth, the bandwidth between the edges of the onset of the spurious domain, etc, and they'll all have different answers.

Then again, a receiver can have a filter with a bandwidth specified down to the -120dB points, but it dosn't mean the receiver will have 120dB of rejection from a signal at that offset, because of phase noise.

So you have to define what you mean by bandwidth......


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KC2UGV on June 01, 2011, 07:19:21 AM
I've always thought ham radio was a hobby someting to have as something to have fun with and not get all bent out of shape about. I guess if one doesnt like what he/she hears one can always just shut off the radio and walk away! I dont let the crap and bad ops stress me out.

Because ham radio is srs bsns.  Srsly.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K1WJ on June 01, 2011, 02:16:32 PM
On SSB I always try to seperate by 3khz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on July 17, 2011, 01:11:18 AM
I"M curious,would he also be complaining about the 30 meter band, ? it is the one with channels? I don't have a radio for it .HOW is that working out? yea, channnels is a great idea, worked for cb didn't it ? what planet are you on?  My radio is almost 30 years old, and have to problem with slectivity if someone is operating ok , I also have a filter between my ears called a brain, and  a good listener shouln't have a problem with some splatter, I am sure my ten watts splatters all over the band, get real ...  I'll conceed some foreign stations can splatter a lot , but like they say, don't stress out, turn the dial, chill out , regroup or read e ham for a laugh .   by the way, looked on the internet, they still sell geritol, take a swig and chill out ha ha . kg4ymc

LMAO! This is exactly why the hobby is the way it is. Talking and not knowing what their talking about. Learn your band plan chart as you should!

Where I agree bottom line is no NET OWNS A FREQUENCY WHICH QUESTIONS "WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?"

There's absolutely no way if one station in a group doesnt hear a well set up station others in a group can't. Especially on 40 meters and I know from a good reasonable stand point you know what I'm talking about. So there's no reason for a group or NET QSO session should begin within some ones 3KHz band pass knowing damn well if signal is weak signals can become stronger in sec.

Sure! Narrow your filters too 2KHz wide but.....almost "no" transceiver is gonna take out a station 1-2 KHz away. Not gonna happen and why should you? Under extreme circumstances things happen, but should not be imposed on anyone.

Problem is just as someone said before. Maybe they dont hear that station, but I know that many many times people hear them weak but still move within 3KHz in their pass band. Now take your own advise but reverse it.

Just because you hear a station weak enough and able to tweak them out your pass band "does not" mean your not weak to them. HELLOOOOO!

This guy W1IT has a valid complaint, but clearly some people don't know how to operate their  station in a considerate manner or understand basic functionality knowledge let alone read a band plan.






Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on July 18, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
On SSB I always try to separate by 3kHz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)

I commend you and anyone that at least tries ,but quite many today don't even try. Then again if a guy like KZ8O finds you then there's no fixing his 8-10 KHz spurious transmissions. You'll know it when you hear him and don't bother talking to him because you'll get nothing but a tirade of profanity.

Unbelievable!

73!


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: WX4QN on July 18, 2011, 06:23:28 AM
On SSB I always try to separate by 3kHz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)

I commend you and anyone that at least tries ,but quite many today don't even try. Then again if a guy like KZ8O finds you then there's no fixing his 8-10 KHz spurious transmissions. You'll know it when you hear him and don't bother talking to him because you'll get nothing but a tirade of profanity.

Unbelievable!

73!


You are really obsessed with KZ8O.


Is he your daddy?


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on July 18, 2011, 06:57:06 AM
On SSB I always try to separate by 3kHz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)

I commend you and anyone that at least tries ,but quite many today don't even try. Then again if a guy like KZ8O finds you then there's no fixing his 8-10 KHz spurious transmissions. You'll know it when you hear him and don't bother talking to him because you'll get nothing but a tirade of profanity.

Unbelievable!

73!


You are really obsessed with KZ8O.


Is he your daddy?



Talk about obsession! Are you following me?

Maybe KZ8O is your boyfriend the way you defend him all the time. You guys have to be gay! Are you gay? It's ok I'm not prejudice or nothing. You can tell us!

There's no denying that he transmits 8-10 KHz wide or it's just plain spurious. Either way anyone who hears him will know. Proof is in his signal!


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: WX4QN on July 18, 2011, 07:07:45 AM
On SSB I always try to separate by 3kHz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)

I commend you and anyone that at least tries ,but quite many today don't even try. Then again if a guy like KZ8O finds you then there's no fixing his 8-10 KHz spurious transmissions. You'll know it when you hear him and don't bother talking to him because you'll get nothing but a tirade of profanity.

Unbelievable!

73!


You are really obsessed with KZ8O.


Is he your daddy?



Talk about obsession! Are you following me?






Your obsessive post was the first post of the day on the MISC forum so I read your drivel before I remembered who you are.

Don't worry, there is a little IGNORE icon under your screen name on the page that I am going to click just as soon as I hit the "POST" button.

That means that I'll never see another one of your vitriolic rants.


Goodbye.



Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on July 18, 2011, 07:35:37 AM
On SSB I always try to separate by 3kHz minimum if I can. 73 K1WJ David  8)

I commend you and anyone that at least tries ,but quite many today don't even try. Then again if a guy like KZ8O finds you then there's no fixing his 8-10 KHz spurious transmissions. You'll know it when you hear him and don't bother talking to him because you'll get nothing but a tirade of profanity.

Unbelievable!

73!


You are really obsessed with KZ8O.


Is he your daddy?



Talk about obsession! Are you following me?






Your obsessive post was the first post of the day on the MISC forum so I read your drivel before I remembered who you are.

Don't worry, there is a little IGNORE icon under your screen name on the page that I am going to click just as soon as I hit the "POST" button.

That means that I'll never see another one of your vitriolic rants.


Goodbye.



Guess I hit the nail on the head!

I would love nothing more than for you to hit that "Ignore button". Stay out of my business and I'd do the same.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: W4AMP on July 29, 2011, 12:20:43 AM
Prius driving eham thugs. SRSLY ::)


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K7GLM on July 29, 2011, 12:35:12 PM
Because ham radio is srs bsns.  Srsly.

QFT.  ROTFLMAO!


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: KE7IZL on July 30, 2011, 04:56:25 PM
BPSK31 though has ultra narrow band. Even if your SSB receiver receives 10 well spaced paralell BPSK31 transmissions in its passband, if you are using decoding software like MultiPSK, just click the one on the waterfall you want to decode (as well as reply to). The radio's 2 to 3 khz bandwidth doesn't matter. The bandwidth of the digital transmission itself (and RX bandpass FFT filter on the software) are what matter.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: W8JX on July 30, 2011, 05:07:44 PM
Even if your SSB receiver receives 10 well spaced paralell BPSK31 transmissions in its passband, if you are using decoding software like MultiPSK, just click the one on the waterfall you want to decode (as well as reply to). The radio's 2 to 3 khz bandwidth doesn't matter. The bandwidth of the digital transmission itself (and RX bandpass FFT filter on the software) are what matter.

In theory anyway. The problem with this is that is "assumes" all signals are same strength too. Through in a strong signal or two in or near this bandpass to swamp AGC and this theory goes out the window. Theory and reality do not mesh that often.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on July 30, 2011, 07:26:19 PM
Even if your SSB receiver receives 10 well spaced paralell BPSK31 transmissions in its passband, if you are using decoding software like MultiPSK, just click the one on the waterfall you want to decode (as well as reply to). The radio's 2 to 3 khz bandwidth doesn't matter. The bandwidth of the digital transmission itself (and RX bandpass FFT filter on the software) are what matter.

In theory anyway. The problem with this is that is "assumes" all signals are same strength too. Through in a strong signal or two in or near this bandpass to swamp AGC and this theory goes out the window. Theory and reality do not mesh that often.

All this may be true but low signal to noise ratio and narrow band width modes using software is very effective in noisy conditions ,weak signal and doesn't need excess bandwidth or power. With 25 watts or less can work the world.

All though the thread is about using SSB mode as the issue people are having trouble with understanding.




Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: W8JX on July 30, 2011, 10:29:16 PM

All though the thread is about using SSB mode as the issue people are having trouble with understanding.


Well Digi is mostly AFSK modulation is SSB mode.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: K7NSW on July 31, 2011, 03:29:33 PM
Sometimes QRM is really accidental.  I was wintering in Arizona.  I found a dead cw freq, listened for a minute,  and called QRL three times.  No response.  Called CQ, etc - the usual.  No response.  Radio off and went to cut the lawn.  Received a friendly e-mail a few days later.  A guy in the midwest.  He copied W1AW on that freq and was doing code practice.  He also heard me and I messed up his code practice.  He was in the middle between me and ARRL HQ.  The band was open to Connecticut for him but closed for me.  So I sinned in ignorance, no fault of mine.  Patience and a forgiving heart are still virtues - that is why the e-mail to me was friendly.  Still do not know what I could have done differently.  Life is not always fair or the way we want it - oh well.


Title: RE: What part of bandwidth don't YOU understand?
Post by: N2RRA on August 01, 2011, 10:28:07 AM
Sometimes QRM is really accidental.  I was wintering in Arizona.  I found a dead cw freq, listened for a minute,  and called QRL three times.  No response.  Called CQ, etc - the usual.  No response.  Radio off and went to cut the lawn.  Received a friendly e-mail a few days later.  A guy in the midwest.  He copied W1AW on that freq and was doing code practice.  He also heard me and I messed up his code practice.  He was in the middle between me and ARRL HQ.  The band was open to Connecticut for him but closed for me.  So I sinned in ignorance, no fault of mine.  Patience and a forgiving heart are still virtues - that is why the e-mail to me was friendly.  Still do not know what I could have done differently.  Life is not always fair or the way we want it - oh well.

I see your point but still not the same. This same scenario does happen on SSB but you can prevent the interference from a QSO much easier. In CW filtering a signal 50Hz to 500 Hz can be eliminated completely is possible but not in SSB. In CW it's not like you can just jump in and mention the interference with everybody if you know what I'm saying.

If there's a NET which has a group of people from all over the U.S. ,or across seas someone is going to hear you ask if "frequency is in use" in SSB. There shouldn't be any problem in telling that person "yes...thanks for asking". Even if the station was 1KHz away someone in the group should react to prevent further interruption.

In the scenario of two stations in QSO could be harder ,but what W1IT is talking about is that same group of people knowing that your having a QSO for the last 30-45 minutes 2KHZ away and they still start their NET. Then they have the nerve to come down and state that your interfering with them. It's B.S.!

Why can't they just move 1KHz higher?