eHam

eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: K5UNX on July 03, 2012, 09:25:04 AM



Title: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K5UNX on July 03, 2012, 09:25:04 AM
Would lcwo.net be a good way to learn CW?

I am 49 years old, and trying to raise my involvement in Ham Radio. I recently upgraded to general and am planning on getting a HF rig sometime this year. I initially thought that I would not be interested in CW but after watching a CW only guy work during Field Day, I decided it would be good to learn.

I thought about getting Gordon Wests CD's http://amzn.to/N8yxGb

It seems lcwo.net and the CD's use different methods of learning?  I know there are several ways to learn so I guess I am looking for the "best" way to learn. I am willing to put in time and effort.

How have some of you learned? I know some learned in the military and before getting licensed before the no code era. What about some that learned it recently?

Wayne


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: W5INC on July 03, 2012, 09:53:28 AM
Wayne, I used W1AW's code practice sessions to help me with the code starting out. I still use the practice sessions to gain speed, since I was QRT for almost 10 years. Tough to beat the price, the code is sent perfectly and in plain text from the ARRL's station. The practice sessions do include puncuation marks and numbers which are always good to know, IMO. Here is the W1AW practice schedule for the summer. Good Luck in learning the code.  :)

              W1AW SUMMER SCHEDULE: APRIL - OCTOBER
                        (all times in UTC)


 Voice Bulletins:        Daily: 0130, 0430;

 Teleprinter Bulletins:  Daily: 0100, 0400, 2200;  MTWThF: 1500;

 CW Bulletins:           Daily: 0000, 0300, 2100;  MTWThF: 1400;

 Slow Code Practice:                 MWF: 0200, 1300, 2300;
 (5, 7.5, 10, 13, and 15 wpm)        TThSSn: 2000; Sn: 0200;

 Fast Code Practice:                 MWF: 2000; TTh: 0200, 1300;
 (10, 13, 15, 20, 25, and 30 wpm)    TThSSn: 2300; S: 0200;
                                                          - more -
 FREQUENCIES:   Voice  - 1.89, 3.99, 7.29, 14.29, 21.39,
                         28.59, 50.19, 147.555 MHz.

           Teleprinter - 3.625, 7.095, 14.095, 21.095,
                         28.095, 147.555 MHz.

                    CW - 1.818, 3.58, 7.08, 14.07, 21.08,
                         28.08, 50.08, 147.555 MHz.

 The Monday, Wednesday, and Friday 1300 - 2100 UTC transmissions
 are beamed to Europe on 14, 21, and 28 MHz;  on Wednesday at
 2200 UTC they are beamed south.

 The Friday bulletins are replaced with a special DX bulletin.

 The Tuesday and Saturday 2230 UTC teleprinter bulletins include
 the Keplerian elements for all amateur satellites.       - more -

 Teleprinter transmissions are 45.45 baud Baudot, 110 baud ASCII,
 and 100 baud AMTOR, FEC mode.

 The CW bulletins are sent at 18 wpm.

 


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: W5ESE on July 03, 2012, 10:24:26 AM
I've heard good reports about g4fon's program. I was licensed back in the 70's when most Amateur Radio Clubs sponsored Novice Classes, which included the 5wpm morse component. That approach to learning morse code has largely disappeared. (A once-per-week class was far from ideal anyway; short, daily practice would have been much bettert).

I also used to tune in the maritime shore station beacons, which were repetitive enough that I could pick out the call letters with a little effort. Those are now mostly off the air EXCEPT that once a year, a few of the old shore stations are returned to the air. That is the Maritime Radio Historical Society's 'Night of Nights', which is coming up on July 12. If you have (or can borrow) a shortwave radio, you could try tuning in some of the maritime shore stations and learn a few of the letters by copying the beacons. These are loud enough that even an inexpensive shortwave radio will hear many of them.

More details on the 'Night of Nights' is at:

http://www.radiomarine.org

Watch the KSM video at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ysyIP-BUY0&feature=plcp


73 Scott W5ESE


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on July 03, 2012, 11:09:43 AM
Would lcwo.net be a good way to learn CW?

There are quite a few threads discussing the merits and pitfalls of various methods, programs, etc.. Here are a few that might be worth reading:

Need help with learning CW. (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,82014.0.html)

Learning CW (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,81638.0.html)

Learning CW (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,78857.0.html) (same title, different thread.)

My code journey (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,81443.0.html)


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 03, 2012, 11:13:42 AM
Would lcwo.net be a good way to learn CW?

I am 49 years old, and trying to raise my involvement in Ham Radio.
Wayne


Nice to hear that Wayne,

Sure you can learn CW at lcwo.net.
G4fon is also a great program.

Don't ask how it was learned in the past, because that was the hardest way.

Remember perseverance is required. At 49 years old, I estimate that you have to exercise EACH day two times a quarter of an hour for at least half a year to reach the goal of 12 wpm, which is slow but not too bad like 5 wpm, that "speed" is  horrible.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K7KBN on July 03, 2012, 11:52:08 AM
You can't really "learn CW" until you've learned Morse Code.  They are not the same thing.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K5UNX on July 03, 2012, 12:04:27 PM
You can't really "learn CW" until you've learned Morse Code.  They are not the same thing.

Care to elaborate on that just a little? I am new to all this . . . I have had a license for a while but zero experience and I don't yet have an HF radio thought I am working on that.  If someone wants to buy a nice electric bass guitar I could get one faster :) But that's another problem.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: KK0G on July 03, 2012, 01:43:33 PM
You can't really "learn CW" until you've learned Morse Code.  They are not the same thing.

Care to elaborate on that just a little? I am new to all this . . . I have had a license for a while but zero experience and I don't yet have an HF radio thought I am working on that.  If someone wants to buy a nice electric bass guitar I could get one faster :) But that's another problem.

CW (continuous wave) is the transmission mode - on/off keying of a continuous wave. Morse code is the 'language' we use to impart information to that on/off keying.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K5UNX on July 03, 2012, 01:54:54 PM
You can't really "learn CW" until you've learned Morse Code.  They are not the same thing.

Care to elaborate on that just a little? I am new to all this . . . I have had a license for a while but zero experience and I don't yet have an HF radio thought I am working on that.  If someone wants to buy a nice electric bass guitar I could get one faster :) But that's another problem.

CW (continuous wave) is the transmission mode - on/off keying of a continuous wave. Morse code is the 'language' we use to impart information to that on/off keying.

Ahh OK. Thank You. I have mostly heard the term CW lately in reference to Morse Code. Thanks for the explanation.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: N2EY on July 03, 2012, 03:03:30 PM
The following is a couple of years old, but I guess it bears repeating.

12 steps to learning Morse Code:

1) Realize that Morse Code is a set of skills, not just one or two, and they take a while to learn. They cannot be learned by reading a book, watching a video, or posting to a forum; they can only be learned by doing. There is no "best way" nor "magic method" that is universal; there is only what works for you, and it can ONLY be found by doing.

2) Set up a place to study code. A good solid desk or table with no distractions, lots of room to write, good lighting, good chair. Source(s) of code (computer, HF receiver, tapes, etc.), key and oscillator. Headphones are a good idea. I recommend starting out with a straight key. It needs a good solid base and needs to be adjusted properly.

3) Stay away from gimmicks and printed charts with dots and dashes on them. Morse Code is sounds, not printing on a chart or little phrases. Learning to receive consists of nothing more than learning to associate a certain sound pattern with a certain letter or number. There are only about 41 of them to learn. Do you think you could learn 41 words in a foreign language? Learning Morse is easier than that because the sounds are simpler.

4) Set aside at least a half-hour EVERY DAY for code practice. Can be a couple of ten- or fifteen minute sessions, but they should add up to at least a half hour every day. That means every single day, not just weekends, holidays, etc. If you can do more than a half-hour some days, great! Do it! But more practice on one day does not give you an excuse for the next day.

5) Visualize success, not failure, not mediocrity. Nobody is born with the skills, all those hotshot ops you hear or see started out as clueless newbies. Do not accept excuses about "talent" or "musical skill" or such; there are plenty of tone-deaf CW ops who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. "If you believe, you can achieve".

6) Download and read "The Art And Skill of Radiotelegraphy". It's free and available from several websites. Search out other code-oriented websites and read what they have to say. But do not let time reading or on the computer get in the way of practice.

7) Practice both sending and receiving each and every day. A few minutes sending is plenty, most of the time should be spent receiving, but the two help each other.

8) Practice receiving by writing it down. Copying "in your head" comes later. I find a pencil and block printing works best for me, but what matters is what works best for you.

9) Discontinue ANYTHING that impairs your ability to concentrate, focus, and learn new stuff. Only doctor-prescribed medications are exempt from this rule. Beer and other learning-affecting substances are not exempt. Get enough sleep and enough physical exercise. Eat right.

10) Put away your microphones and stay off the voice radios - all of them. Listen to hams actually using code on the air, copy down what they send. Learn how hams actually use code. Translate street signs, house numbers, etc. into code (in your head). Have code playing in the background whenever you can.

11) If your HF rig doesn't have a sharp filter (400-500 Hz), get one and install it. Read the manual about how to use the rig on CW. Best operation usually requires turning off the AGC, turning the RF gain down and the AF gain up. The S-meter and AGC won't work under those conditions but that's no big loss.   

12) Keep at it. There may be times when it seems as if you are making no progress, and times when you make rapid progress. What matters is that you keep practicing.

---

A bit of work? Sure it is, but well worth it, because all those steps make learning the code easier. And there's a lot you can do with the skills once they're learned.

But a person has to be willing to do what's required. And they have to actually do those things.

73 es GL de Jim, N2EY


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: LB3KB on July 03, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
Discontinue ANYTHING that impairs your ability to concentrate, focus, and learn new stuff. Only doctor-prescribed medications are exempt from this rule. Beer and other learning-affecting substances are not exempt. Get enough sleep and enough physical exercise. Eat right.

What the 'ey do you have against beer ?  Beer is good for you.

73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com (http://justlearnmorsecode.com)


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K5MF on July 03, 2012, 08:16:22 PM
IMO, there is no reason to spend good money on a code program.  Not that those available are not good, but there are just so many free resources available, thanks to the many folks who have decided to give something back to this great hobby, that it isn't really necessary to spend money to learn Morse Code.  Trying to copy w1aw transmissions and QSOs is going to be frustrating until you learn a good number of the characters.  Use one of the code programs for that and then start listening.  At first you will think, "What is the big deal, this is easy."  But then as you add more and more of the characters, it will become more confusing.  That is just the way it works so don't give up.  Stick with it and practice, practice, practice, and you will be successful.  Good luck with your journey and keep us posted.

Tom/AE5QB,


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: VA7CPC on July 03, 2012, 09:53:13 PM
1.  Would lcwo.net be a good way to learn CW?

2.  It seems lcwo.net and the CD's use different methods of learning?  I know there are several ways to learn so I guess I am looking for the "best" way to learn. I am willing to put in time and effort.

3.   How have some of you learned? I know some learned in the military and before getting licensed before the no code era. What about some that learned it recently?


Trying to answer the questions asked (and asking forgiveness for repeating points already made):

1.  Yes -- LCWO supports the "Koch method" -- learning characters, one-at-a-time, at reasonable speed ( 15 wpm or greater) for the _character_ speed. 

2.  The Koch technique is widely accepted.   The G4FON software uses it, too.  As I remember, it's recommended in "The Art and Skill of Radio-Telegraphy".

3.  I learned the alphabet and numbers at around 7 wpm, to pass the Canadian code test, and then forgot about it.  Based on the difficulty I had when I finally decided to re-learn CW at a usable speed:

. . . DON'T DO THAT!

Instead, use the Koch method, and set the character speed to 15 wpm or thereabout.  G4FON has an automatic-scoring mechanism; I haven't tried LCWO.

Practice _daily_ for 15 minutes to an hour, depending on your time availability and stamina.  Try hard to not skip a day.

The military learning techniques might not work for you.  WWII radio operators were young, trained full-time, and were _very_ motivated.  If you didn't learn Morse, you went back into the ranks of cannon-fodder.

               Charles



Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AE7UT on July 03, 2012, 11:14:54 PM
Wayne I've got you beat by a couple of years here.  I'm 52 years old.
I will admit I got pretty frustrated until I just let go of my expectations to be an expert in
a number of weeks.  It took me MONTHS to feel I had enough of a grasp of the code to
start making QSOs.

I have been working "live" now for about 4 months.  It took me about 6 months to learn
and practice enough to get the whole alphabet down.  I still struggle with numbers at 20 WPM.
I used LCWO extensively to learn but it seemed to take quite a long time for me.
For me what finally got the whole alphabet and numbers in my head were CDs in the car.
I listened to an instructional CD on the way to work and driving around.  I used an old
ARRL code course.  I've now got another much faster course I'm working on that sends
at about 20 WPM and the learning is going much faster.

Just relax and keep at it.  I have a very time intensive job, 5 kids, church job, huge yard, dog
that needs walking, and most importantly a wife that needs me to help around the house.
I never had time to "study" regularly.  I just wanted it bad enough to not let the months it took
me to learn bother me. 

Winston Churchill said it best...
Never, never, never give up.

73
Stan AE7UT





Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 04, 2012, 12:11:46 AM
So,

Now everything is said, just as so often already in the past in this forum section.
It is repeated and repeated agn cuz Topic Starters are askers, asking is easy.
It are not investigators, because the info is readily available in previous postings.
Questioners are normally guys with less perseverance abilities.  Just that is what is required.

(BTW You CAN learn CW, on LCWO, which means Learn CW on line) A language is not a mathematical construct, but is a living structure, it changes with time, and CW is at present day the same meaning as Morse Telegraphy.

Morse code is NOT a language with 41 words but a phonetic alphabet. So you have to translate character by character, give you a hard time when you want to conversate with Japan or China. But the supremacy of the western world (like a star still shining but already dead and away for light years) urge people to think that the code is universal. It is not.

And just as in the past, after collection the enthusiast congrats by the CW fraternity, we probably never hear agn something.
People make plans, and when they meet some difficulty they just stop.

Quote
Winston Churchill said it best...
Never, never, never give up.

Does that mean that when you think: I am going to learn the code such and such proficiency is my goal, and you experience that it is going to cost you  lots of time, to get it done, much more then expected, that you have to go on? Even when you think after a year: It is not worth so much time, I can spent that time better on education, reading Plato or whatever, you may not stop, because Churchill should have said something ?  When you have to walk south and during walking North you find out it is the wrong direction, return on your steps or go on walking North over the long path?

People married, promised each other for life. Over 30% divorces, Churchill should have prohibited that.
He was divorced himself, wasn't he? All those people bishops monks priests leaving churches/religions etc etc.


Is it true that you can use CW for a lot of things? Can hardly believe that. It takes two to tango.

Me and my computer.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on July 04, 2012, 02:41:53 AM
Would lcwo.net be a good way to learn CW?

It does offer some useful features, and it has disadvantages. Same, but in different ways, applies to other software training tools. There is no "best". Don't believe all the advice you get. Don't expect miracles. Don't be afraid to change course...


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: KK0G on July 04, 2012, 07:35:33 AM
So,

Now everything is said, just as so often already in the past in this forum section.
It is repeated and repeated agn cuz Topic Starters are askers, asking is easy.
It are not investigators, because the info is readily available in previous postings.
Questioners are normally guys with less perseverance abilities.  Just that is what is required.

(BTW You CAN learn CW, on LCWO, which means Learn CW on line) A language is not a mathematical construct, but is a living structure, it changes with time, and CW is at present day the same meaning as Morse Telegraphy.

Morse code is NOT a language with 41 words but a phonetic alphabet. So you have to translate character by character, give you a hard time when you want to conversate with Japan or China. But the supremacy of the western world (like a star still shining but already dead and away for light years) urge people to think that the code is universal. It is not.

And just as in the past, after collection the enthusiast congrats by the CW fraternity, we probably never hear agn something.
People make plans, and when they meet some difficulty they just stop.

Quote
Winston Churchill said it best...
Never, never, never give up.

Does that mean that when you think: I am going to learn the code such and such proficiency is my goal, and you experience that it is going to cost you  lots of time, to get it done, much more then expected, that you have to go on? Even when you think after a year: It is not worth so much time, I can spent that time better on education, reading Plato or whatever, you may not stop, because Churchill should have said something ?  When you have to walk south and during walking North you find out it is the wrong direction, return on your steps or go on walking North over the long path?

People married, promised each other for life. Over 30% divorces, Churchill should have prohibited that.
He was divorced himself, wasn't he? All those people bishops monks priests leaving churches/religions etc etc.


Is it true that you can use CW for a lot of things? Can hardly believe that. It takes two to tango.

Me and my computer.

SQUIRREL!!


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: K7KBN on July 04, 2012, 02:30:36 PM
(BTW You CAN learn CW, on LCWO, which means Learn CW on line) A language is not a mathematical construct, but is a living structure, it changes with time, and CW is at present day the same meaning as Morse Telegraphy.

A man asked his son, "How many fingers do you have?"  The kid replied, "Ten."

"No," said the man.  "You have eight." 

"But I count my thumbs as fingers," said the boy.

"There's the problem, son," said the man.  "Calling a thumb a finger doesn't make it so."

Neither does calling CW "Morse Code" make it "Morse Code".


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 04, 2012, 03:34:27 PM


A man asked his son, "How many fingers do you have?"  The kid replied, "Ten."

"No," said the man.  "You have eight." 


We , here in Holland, don't have ten fingers and two thumbs, however Touch Typing is literally translated "Ten finger blind typing"

When you ask the guy here "How many fingers do you have?" He promptly answers: "I have ten digits."


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AB9NZ on July 04, 2012, 05:30:25 PM
I'm starting to like this PAOBLAH fella, especially his address of the pedantic reminders that cw isn't Morse code. Language is always in flux, and calling amateur radio telegraphy "CW" is commonplace, and I think appropriate. Carlo Consoli, IK0YGJ in his free E-book "ZEN AND THE ART OF RADIOTELEGRAPHY" discusses this issue in the section called "CW: the Esperanto of the Third Millenium". I hope everybody will take a look. Best of 73 de Tom, AB9NZ


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: KK0G on July 04, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
When you ask the guy here "How many fingers do you have?" He promptly answers: "I have ten digits."

Then he didn't answer the question.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AE7UT on July 04, 2012, 10:01:24 PM
PA0BLAH toen ik negenteen was wilde ik Nederlands leren.  Binnen twee maanden kon ik een conversatie in het Nederlands houden.  Dat was bijna diertig jaaren geleden een ik heb veel, veel vergeten.  Het spijt mij heel slecht Nederlands.  Ik wonde in Nederland voor vier manden en daar  leerde ik veel meer om dat ik het moest gebruiken,.  Ik heb ook in Turkije gewond en daar turks geleerd.  Ik had een heel moi vriendin in Turkije dus had ik Turks moest leren kenen!

PA0BLAH you may not be aware that your post to me sounds like your tired of people asking questions about learning code/CW/Morse. 
I asked tons of questions and was very glad people gave me some direction and encouragement.  Just like training for a marathon (I'm referring to the really long foot race) there are many ways of training.  Do you think a 49 year old and a 19 year old should use the same training schedule?  As we age our bodies and our brains react differently to stimuli and stress.  I may have been reading into his post but I inferred he was asking how a man of 49 would best be served to learn code.

When people train for long races it's also nice to have a cohort of friends or training partners to keep one motivated and staying the course.  I find it rare that men of 49 have such a local cadre when it comes to morse code.  That is why many people like myself turn to forums like this.  To find people they can rely on for support, advice, encouragement and friendship.  You sir seem to have a disconcerting lack of insight into this.  Perhaps you should spend some of your energy and time posting on a psychology forum looking into your motivation for thwarting the endeavors of people like Wayne.

Happy Fourth of July everyone
73
Stan AE7UT


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: HA7AP on July 04, 2012, 10:59:37 PM
PA0BLAH toen ik negenteen was wilde ik Nederlands leren.  Binnen twee maanden kon ik een conversatie in het Nederlands houden.  Dat was bijna diertig jaaren geleden een ik heb veel, veel vergeten.  Het spijt mij heel slecht Nederlands.  Ik wonde in Nederland voor vier manden en daar  leerde ik veel meer om dat ik het moest gebruiken,.  Ik heb ook in Turkije gewond en daar turks geleerd.  Ik had een heel moi vriendin in Turkije dus had ik Turks moest leren kenen!

PA0BLAH you may not be aware that your post to me sounds like your tired of people asking questions about learning code/CW/Morse. 
I asked tons of questions and was very glad people gave me some direction and encouragement.  Just like training for a marathon (I'm referring to the really long foot race) there are many ways of training.  Do you think a 49 year old and a 19 year old should use the same training schedule?  As we age our bodies and our brains react differently to stimuli and stress.  I may have been reading into his post but I inferred he was asking how a man of 49 would best be served to learn code.

When people train for long races it's also nice to have a cohort of friends or training partners to keep one motivated and staying the course.  I find it rare that men of 49 have such a local cadre when it comes to morse code.  That is why many people like myself turn to forums like this.  To find people they can rely on for support, advice, encouragement and friendship.  You sir seem to have a disconcerting lack of insight into this.  Perhaps you should spend some of your energy and time posting on a psychology forum looking into your motivation for thwarting the endeavors of people like Wayne.

Happy Fourth of July everyone
73
Stan AE7UT


Hi Stan!
Actually, it doesn't matter how old are you.
Learning code is very similar to learning languages, although a younger person can learn way faster, that's all !!
1st learn the alphabet
2nd learn the sound of words
3rd Expand your vocabulary and practice on or the air what have you learned.
4th practice, practice, and more practice!!!
sometimes people just over complicated it.
If you think it's hard, then it will be hard.
You also need to enjoy it and look at it as an easy thing to do.

73 Imi HA7AP


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 05, 2012, 04:03:04 PM
PA0BLAH toen ik negenteen was wilde ik Nederlands leren.  Binnen twee maanden kon ik een conversatie in het Nederlands houden.  Dat was bijna diertig jaaren geleden een ik heb veel, veel vergeten.  Het spijt mij heel slecht Nederlands.  Ik wonde in Nederland voor vier manden en daar  leerde ik veel meer om dat ik het moest gebruiken,.  Ik heb ook in Turkije gewond en daar turks geleerd.  Ik had een heel moi vriendin in Turkije dus had ik Turks moest leren kenen!
Amazing Stan, your Dutch is still very understandable, congrats!

Quote
PA0BLAH you may not be aware that your post to me sounds like your tired of people asking questions about learning code/CW/Morse.  
I asked tons of questions and was very glad people gave me some direction and encouragement.  Just like training for a marathon (I'm referring to the really long foot race) there are many ways of training.  Do you think a 49 year old and a 19 year old should use the same training schedule?  As we age our bodies and our brains react differently to stimuli and stress.  I may have been reading into his post but I inferred he was asking how a man of 49 would best be served to learn code.

When I should be tired, I shouldn't read here and reply, quite simple.
However two points:
1. Somebody saying to plan to learn the code, has to understand that it cost a lot of time, time you can spent in another way.
2. You have to understand that there are a lot of people starting to learn the code, but stopping early or later before they can actually use it in ham radio. When you stop, the invested time is lost. You can  spent every minute in your life only once.

I think that it is important that people realise what they do when they start. Otherwise they fail.
Training Morse Code is certainly different from a physical sport training, In general the capacity and the time to invest in order to be sufficient proficient for ham QSO-ing at 15 to 20 wpm which is the normal speed produced by hams in QSO, increases with the starting age with learning te code.

In the past LCWO published of each participant the number of exercises and the lesson they were working on.
You could easily scan the figures and find out that only a few percent  finished the course. You could read all kind of expectations in sub forums there: "I compromise myself to make my first QSO after Christmas. " Stopped a few weeks later obviously. That German guys were working in group, stimulated by each others results. That is the purpose. Doesn't work either.

In short: When you say what I say and when you say you can't perform that because your character is not strong enough for such a task, just that remark is for a lot of guys the stimulating factor to proof the opposite.

It is just like stopping smoking or loosing weight. You really have to want it strongly, you have to plan it seriously, and you may never skip your planned daily exercises.


Quote
When people train for long races it's also nice to have a cohort of friends or training partners to keep one motivated and staying the course.  I find it rare that men of 49 have such a local cadre when it comes to Morse code.  That is why many people like myself turn to forums like this.  To find people they can rely on for support, advice, encouragement and friendship.  You sir seem to have a disconcerting lack of insight into this.  Perhaps you should spend some of your energy and time posting on a psychology forum looking into your motivation for thwarting the endeavors of people like Wayne.

A forum can be used the way you propose, and certainly is, when I read the encouragements here. Morse code training is something you have to do yourself because you planned it, you want it,  you don't want to fail, I don't see much sense in trying to keep weight losers and stopping smokers on a forum. They have to motivate themself. Only then you can succeed.

Somebody of 49 certainly can learn the code, I welcomed him, and give him the advice to join LCWO or use G4FON with a warning he has to exercise every day 2 times 15 minutes for 6 month in order to get sufficient proficient, as my estimation.

PA0FOX wanted it, exercised, and made it. Exercising copy by head now, with MP3 files and ear pieces, when biking to his employer.

However a forum is also a way to exchange thoughts and opinions. I feel free to give my opinion in order to make guys planning to learn the code aware of what they are starting to accomplish, that makes the chance of success larger, and prevents disappointment and lost time.

Thanks, Stan for dealing your thoughts

73 Bob


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: LB3KB on July 05, 2012, 05:40:38 PM
There are plenty of fat people and smokers that have become proficient at Morse code.

As a matter of fact, my body has been meticulously sculpted by good beer and a complete lack of exercise - and I smoke too.  That hasn't stopped me from getting proficient at a lot of stuff much more complicated than learning Morse code.


73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com (http://justlearnmorsecode.com)


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 05, 2012, 11:52:27 PM
OK, get the point Sigurd, You did not want to lose weight or to stop smoking, and seeks helplessly on fora for support because you do know in advance that your weak character can't make it without support of a friendly crowd of strangers.

But you did want to learn Morse code and you did want to learn your other complicated programming and do did it, because you wanted it and your will is strong enough just to do that, and you did not need a forum, telling you are going to learn C++ or Java or solving in an analytical way structures of non linear partial differential equations of the fifth order.

Bob


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on July 06, 2012, 12:14:39 AM
When you ask the guy here "How many fingers do you have?" He promptly answers: "I have ten digits."

Then he didn't answer the question.

Yes, right, so was said to him, and the answer of the little guy was:
"Please, show me your middle-finger."

The old man did, and the little guy said, Four fingers don't have a middle finger when that is your middle finger, and you have two fingers at the left of it, you also have two fingers at the right of it, so your thumb is a finger and you have 10 fingers.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: STAYVERTICAL on July 06, 2012, 12:59:13 AM

Hi Wayne,

Welcome to ham radio again.
I learned morse by myself in the way that most hams did in the 1960's by looking at a book and listening on the air.
Although I was quite proficient at code up to 20 wpm in this way, I later did training for seagoing Radio Officer duties.
The technique used was about an hour a day on an ancient paper tape morse generator for two years.
Sending training was by sending to an instructor who critiqued your sending and gave you advice.
At the end of two years, the students were sent to sea, and managed quite happily.

Some of these guys were mature age students from 35 to 45 years from remote islands telecommunications facilties.
So, if you practice receiving for an hour a day for two years, you should be up to that level as well.

This is ham radio, and you will encounter different speeds and competencies, but after all it is supposed to be fun.
If I were you, I would concentrate mostly on receiving competency.
There are many options for sending morse ranging from hand keys to P.C. keyboards, and this will not be your bottleneck.

Enjoy yourself, do a bit each day, and you will gradually improve your skill level.
Keep the gatekeeper at the entrance to your brain alert, and make sure he refuses entry to negative comments and persons.
They are poison to creativity, progress and your psyche.

Don't worry be happy.

73 - Rob


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: N2EY on July 06, 2012, 12:03:32 PM
Discontinue ANYTHING that impairs your ability to concentrate, focus, and learn new stuff. Only doctor-prescribed medications are exempt from this rule. Beer and other learning-affecting substances are not exempt. Get enough sleep and enough physical exercise. Eat right.

What the 'ey do you have against beer ?  Beer is good for you.

73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com (http://justlearnmorsecode.com)

Read the whole thing.

For a lot of people, beer reduces the ability to learn new things. This is proven by the number of really dumb things folks do under its influence.

OTOH, there are those who subscribe to Cliff Clavin's "Buffalo Theory"

73 de Jim, N2EY


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: KG4NEL on July 06, 2012, 12:55:06 PM
Nah, that's because you think you know what you're doing (keeping in your lane, whether or not that girl who's looking at you is under 300lbs), but the beer gets in the way  ;D





Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AK4YH on October 20, 2012, 10:05:35 PM
Quote
Learn the correct way. Visit this site and read the info. This is the way to learn. http://www.cwops.org/cwacademy.html

Not much information on the site... There is a "Pay Dues" button but no prices... Is that for membership? Is the training from members free? When and what does one pay for?
What about the 25wpm requirement, I guess it doesn't apply to students... Would members help me get to that speed?

Gil.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 21, 2012, 07:42:36 AM
Yes you can.

Bob


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: KK4CPH on October 21, 2012, 01:53:34 PM
Quote
Learn the correct way. Visit this site and read the info. This is the way to learn. http://www.cwops.org/cwacademy.html

Not much information on the site... There is a "Pay Dues" button but no prices... Is that for membership? Is the training from members free? When and what does one pay for?
What about the 25wpm requirement, I guess it doesn't apply to students... Would members help me get to that speed?

Gil.

Looks to me like you join their academy (next one is Jab-Feb), learn the code, get your speed up to 25wpm, then get sponsored by 4 other members so you can be part of the club.  :-\

Eric


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AB1LT on October 23, 2012, 04:50:55 PM
I'm 54 and just started learning the Code a while ago.  I guess you never really stop learning.  Anyway, here's what I did.

I learned the characters and got up to 5wpm with G4FON.  I used Kotch type speeds:  dots & dashes at 15wpm speed, but 5wpm for letter and word speeds.  It starts you off with a few letters and you graduate to more letters as you learn until you are doing all the letters, numbers,etc.  I imaging lcwo.net would be just as good.

To increase speed I increased the dot & dash speed to 20wpm and started copying at faster speed.  I hit speed walls and then some time later the wall would fall on its own.  Taking a break for a week is OK and may even help, but never give up.

I ran into another wall where I was much slower copying random stuff like call signs.  Recently I started using lcwo.net and especially the Call Sign Training.  It's brutal but effective.  It gives you a call sign.  The next on is 1wpm faster or slower depending on if you got the last one correct or not.  So, it stresses you and keeps you just outside your comfort zone.  This really helped me.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: AC2EU on October 24, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Hello all,

Thought I'd jump in here with some of my experiences.
The code requirement kept me out of this hobby for many years since i was not sure if all of the effort to learn Morse code would be worth it.
I took all three tests at the same sitting and passed after a friend told me that there was no code! 
Now that I have been in the hobby for a couple of years, I realized I do want to learn Morse code now that I can see some of the advantages. Besides, I am rather competitive and it bugs me that others can do something that I can't do!

However, it's not an easy road at age 59. I try to do 15-30 minutes of copy practice a day now for about 6 months.
I am partial to the computer programs, since they allow me to practice on my own schedule. The two that I like the best are the G4FON and "just Learn Morse Code" (http://www.justlearnmorsecode.com/ (http://www.justlearnmorsecode.com/).

The second one has a 'mill" for typing what I hear @ 20wpm , then it grades me. very cool...

When I am "in the zone" , there is just me and the sounds. It's like an altered state of consciousness with extreme auditory focus. It definitely feels different.

I have not tried sending yet. I intend to hook up a keyer to the computer and have DM780 read out what I'm keying so i can be confident that my "fist" can be understood before I go "live".

Jim
AC2EU

The
T


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: REMOVED_ACCOUNT_2015-01-09 on May 19, 2013, 03:53:59 PM
Wayne, I used W1AW's code practice sessions to help me with the code starting out. I still use the practice sessions to gain speed, since I was QRT for almost 10 years. Tough to beat the price, the code is sent perfectly and in plain text from the ARRL's station. The practice sessions do include puncuation marks and numbers which are always good to know, IMO. Here is the W1AW practice schedule for the summer. Good Luck in learning the code.  :)

              W1AW SUMMER SCHEDULE: APRIL - OCTOBER
                        (all times in UTC)


 Voice Bulletins:        Daily: 0130, 0430;

 Teleprinter Bulletins:  Daily: 0100, 0400, 2200;  MTWThF: 1500;

 CW Bulletins:           Daily: 0000, 0300, 2100;  MTWThF: 1400;

 Slow Code Practice:                 MWF: 0200, 1300, 2300;
 (5, 7.5, 10, 13, and 15 wpm)        TThSSn: 2000; Sn: 0200;

 Fast Code Practice:                 MWF: 2000; TTh: 0200, 1300;
 (10, 13, 15, 20, 25, and 30 wpm)    TThSSn: 2300; S: 0200;
                                                          - more -
 FREQUENCIES:   Voice  - 1.89, 3.99, 7.29, 14.29, 21.39,
                         28.59, 50.19, 147.555 MHz.

           Teleprinter - 3.625, 7.095, 14.095, 21.095,
                         28.095, 147.555 MHz.

                    CW - 1.818, 3.58, 7.08, 14.07, 21.08,
                         28.08, 50.08, 147.555 MHz.

 The Monday, Wednesday, and Friday 1300 - 2100 UTC transmissions
 are beamed to Europe on 14, 21, and 28 MHz;  on Wednesday at
 2200 UTC they are beamed south.

 The Friday bulletins are replaced with a special DX bulletin.

 The Tuesday and Saturday 2230 UTC teleprinter bulletins include
 the Keplerian elements for all amateur satellites.       - more -

 Teleprinter transmissions are 45.45 baud Baudot, 110 baud ASCII,
 and 100 baud AMTOR, FEC mode.

 The CW bulletins are sent at 18 wpm.

 

Stay away from the ARRL Code Practice. You cannot learn the code at such slow speeds and I am surprised they still hold onto to this ancient practice. Learn the code at 25wpm and yes LCWO is a good way to learn but another and more beneficial is enroll in CW Academy. www.cwops.org and sign up. You will learn by the sound of letters and more so words instead of the dot dash mentality of the ARRL Code Practice. CW Academy will have you at 25wpm or more within a month.

Good Luck.

john


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: REMOVED_ACCOUNT_2015-01-09 on May 19, 2013, 03:59:57 PM
Quote
Learn the correct way. Visit this site and read the info. This is the way to learn. http://www.cwops.org/cwacademy.html

Not much information on the site... There is a "Pay Dues" button but no prices... Is that for membership? Is the training from members free? When and what does one pay for?
What about the 25wpm requirement, I guess it doesn't apply to students... Would members help me get to that speed?

Gil.

Looks to me like you join their academy (next one is Jab-Feb), learn the code, get your speed up to 25wpm, then get sponsored by 4 other members so you can be part of the club.  :-\

Eric

You don't have to join the "club". If you want to learn the code they will teach you at no charge. The only thing it will cost you is your time and dedication. The teacher's are not paid. They are volunteer's helping other's learn the code in a proficient and correct manner. You should look at the bright side instead of being cynical. Now go buy a key and throw your mic away.

 


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on May 20, 2013, 01:00:16 AM
You will learn by the sound of letters and more so words instead of the dot dash mentality of the ARRL Code Practice.

W1AW does at least transmit words with punctuation in the right places, not the random senseless character strings the Koch systems generate. It's so much easier to learn to read when the words you read make sense.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: WI4P on May 20, 2013, 04:49:32 PM
You can't really "learn CW" until you've learned Morse Code.  They are not the same thing.

Not so.  Learn CW Online starts with learning only two characters, U & M and then adds one character at a time.  I hav found it to be a great tool.

John


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: LB3KB on May 20, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
Quote
You will learn by the sound of letters and more so words instead of the dot dash mentality of the ARRL Code Practice.

W1AW does at least transmit words with punctuation in the right places, not the random senseless character strings the Koch systems generate. It's so much easier to learn to read when the words you read make sense.

What "systems" are you referring to ?

The Koch method uses random characters, but that doesn't mean that a tool capable of using Koch's method offers only random characters.

Just Learn Morse Code is a good program for using the Koch method, but it is also lets you you choose between plenty of other methods if you want to.  You can practice groups of five characters, or any number of characters you select.  You can adjust the weight of individual characters, to get more practice with those you struggle with.  The 1000 most frequently used words in English are available with a simple menu selection.  You can choose the top 10, 78, 836 or however many you want to.  You can use common HAM abbreviations and Q codes.  You can use your own word/phrase/sentence lists.  You can paste in any text you want to.  No matter which method you choose, your performance can be measured - if you want that.

You can generate audio files from all of those sources, at the exact speed you want.


No static file library can ever compete with the flexibility of a well designed computer program.  That's a fact, not an opinion.


73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com (http://justlearnmorsecode.com)


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on May 21, 2013, 04:46:55 AM
The Koch method uses random characters, but that doesn't mean that a tool capable of using Koch's method offers only random characters.

I'm glad JLMC (and the other tools) have those other options. I havn't used G4FON or JLMC much because they don't work very well under wine (of whatever flavour - I've tried several) on either Mac or Linux, and I don't have any Windows PCs, but I have used LCWO to make mp3 files to help me learn Morse. The other options available deserve more attention.

Unfortunately, it's the Koch method that gets pushed, as if it were some miracle teaching method. I stuck at the Koch lessons (on LCWO, as it happens) far too long because folk kept pushing, saying "keep at the lessons, don't quit, you'll get there in the end". I should have ditched Koch, with its random characters and learn-a-character, add-a-character approach, far sooner. In retrospect, it should have been obvious to me that Koch wasn't teaching me Morse effectively by the time I'd been at it for a couple of months. That said, even the Koch learn-a-character, add-a-character approach would probably have worked better for me if, right from the start, it had used words and abbreviations (with callsigns and proper placement of punctuation once the character set included them) rather than random characters, though you'd need to re-arrange the progression to make that work well.

...and to answer the original poster's question "Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?" I'd say "Yes, you probably can, but look at ALL the options available, not just the Koch lessons, and look at other programs as well, but if you can find a real live human teacher who knows and uses Morse and is willing to teach you in person, chances are that'll be the best option."


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: LX2GT on May 22, 2013, 01:22:49 AM
I have found, that JLMC runs perfectly fine under wine.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on May 22, 2013, 02:40:42 AM
I have found, that JLMC runs perfectly fine under wine.

I found it tended to hang after sending the first word unless there was no difference between character and word speeds, when it usually didn't hang. G4FON did likewise, so I assume the problem's somewhere in the way wine is working with the underlying sound system, and that's probably hardware related. Maybe I'm just unlucky that the two systems I've tried it on have both had the same problem...


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: WD8KNI on May 22, 2013, 05:32:22 PM
I am going to jump on this band wagon with a few comments.
1) as most good CW ops will tell you.  CW is a language
2) In yesteryear we learned to write on a piece of paper with multiple 3 lines on the paper and a very large pencil. We also learned words at the same time. (we already know the words now)
3) When we learned to hear and speak our native language,  absolutely NO one slowed down their speech for us to recognize and relate to word to something we could understand.  They were sounded out as syllables for us to put together.  Again the syllable's were not slowed down, nor were the charactors contained inside the syllable's. We already know the words and meaning of words, so we don't need to learn that part again.

I learned code by learning the alphabet at slow speed.  I found that this extra time between charactors allowed me to develop a very bad habit, causing me to drop it for years.  That of converting the sound to the character in my head.  I think the original poster used the term, "process the character" stop the processing..  Imagine learning to hear by only being allowed to hear each character then being forced to put each one together.  That is how we learned to read, and write not how we learned to speak, or hear.  Do you want to learn to read and write radio, I don't think so.
The worst example you could ever develop
  hear a dit da
  think dot dash
  recognise it as a A
  write an A
  read what we wrote
  one charactor at a time till you know the word.

Its really simple.. learn code at 20+ WPM from the start. forget about koch or any other method that is unnatural.   As you learn the sounds you will start putting together easily recognized groups (syllables).  It takes less time to learn a language at normal speech speed, than another way.  write down only things you want need to know.. call, time, name, freq.  speak the language, don't learn to read/write it.

for what its worth, and what you paid..  Fred/wd8kni
 


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on May 23, 2013, 02:09:10 AM
Its really simple.. learn code at 20+ WPM from the start. forget about koch or any other method that is unnatural.

That's fine advice for folk who really have never encountered Morse before, but for many of us who have, it's akin to saying "I wouldn't start from here" when asked for directions. For a fair proportion of folk wanting to learn Morse, the problem is not how to avoid the bad habits, it's how to break them, because they're already there.


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: WD8KNI on May 23, 2013, 04:32:03 AM
if you avoid the bad habits, they will never need to be broken.. you only develop the bad habits by not allowing the time (between characters) for them to develop..  Fred


Title: RE: Can I learn CW with LCWO.net?
Post by: M0LEP on May 23, 2013, 04:59:34 AM
if you avoid the bad habits, they will never need to be broken...

Quite. But for some folks (probably more than care to admit it, and quite possibly the majority of folks trying to learn Morse) the bad habits have developed before they realise it. The idea that Morse code is characters made of dots and dashes is pretty widely circulated. I figure plenty of folks have already seen Morse written out as dots and dashes, with tables of the characters, and so on, long before they come to amateur radio. Even if they havn't, more than one or two of the introductory level amateur radio training books will tell them that. So will at least some of the books about Morse Code. The seeds of the bad habits have been well and widely sown. In quite a few, they'll have taken root long since. There's no point telling folk so affected to avoid those habits. It's too late, and it's pretty discouraging to be told not to develop a habit you've already developed. Advice on good ways to break the bad habits, however, might actually help...