eHam

eHam Forums => Site Talk => Topic started by: K9IUQ on July 13, 2012, 01:02:08 PM



Title: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 13, 2012, 01:02:08 PM
I have noticed a new direction in censorship on eham the last few months. I do not like it.  Since I follow no one and frequently have different opinions than the majority my posts have been moderated (deleted) regularly lately. I never get an explanation from the moderators.

I do not lie, call names or swear on eham. Frequently I get sworn at and I get called names all the time.

My paid eham subscription is up in a couple of weeks. Because of this frequent moderation I will no longer support eham with $$$. Also my posting on eham will probably stop. Controversy or opinions differing from the moderators view are apparently no longer welcome on eham.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 14, 2012, 08:07:00 AM
Are you talking about the forums, Stan?  I also thought that I was being censored in some instances, but it turns out that there are all too many people who post the same question/inquiry on more than one forum.  One person had the same post on seven or more different forums once!  73!


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 14, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
Are you talking about the forums, Stan?  

Yes. There are NO posted rules for conduct in the forums. I and other hams have had posts deleted many times. Even though I try to keep my posts on a civil level I get moderated (deleted posts).

It has gotten much worse in the last several months. IMO eham has always being noted and respected for lively and interesting conversations in the Forums. This is fast changing.

eham has little to offer other than the Forums. The reviews are just about worthless and the Classifieds are handicapped by non paying $ubscriber$ being unable to see ads until after 24 hours. This severely handicaps eham sellers, which is why QTH.com is the place to go to sell stuff. In the last several years I have sold 7-8 thousand dollars of ham equipment. I have always advertised on QTH.com, QRZ.com and eham. The ads were all started at the same time. Almost all my stuff has been sold thru QTH.com. I do not recall ever selling anything thru eham.

So- the ads suck, the reviews are near worthless and the Forums no longer tolerate lively discussions. What is left? The Strays?..  ;D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC4RD on July 14, 2012, 11:15:49 AM
I and other hams have had posts deleted many times. ...
It has gotten much worse in the last several months. ...

I haven't noticed it happening, not one little bit, not even a teeny tiny itty bit. I'm noticing the regular variety of interesting and sometimes useful chat on the forums.  And I'm not seeing any of the bitter sniping and personal/political insults I see when I look at another big ham discussion website.  Say, do you think there's a problem somewhere?


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N4NYY on July 15, 2012, 09:28:01 AM
I and other hams have had posts deleted many times. ...
It has gotten much worse in the last several months. ...

I haven't noticed it happening, not one little bit, not even a teeny tiny itty bit. I'm noticing the regular variety of interesting and sometimes useful chat on the forums.  And I'm not seeing any of the bitter sniping and personal/political insults I see when I look at another big ham discussion website.  Say, do you think there's a problem somewhere?


Oh yeah it has. I belong to a bunch of forums, including baseball forums. This is by far the most censored forum. I do not have a problem with them censoring bad behavior, cursing, and so forth. But they have actually censored posts that included information they didn't seem to think was helpful or relevant. In one case, they actually censored a post that contained some sarcasm. It was clear that the poster was joking and the only ones that couldn't tell was eham.

Listen, if they want to be upstanding and perfect in maintaining this forum because it is a "Ham Radio" forum, they need to go listen to those kooks on 75/80, which is a band that I never go on because of those useless people. This forum is tame compared to them.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC5UP on July 15, 2012, 11:39:20 AM
...you're just pissed because no one here refers to you as Mister Bagadonuts .

 ;D


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 15, 2012, 12:07:17 PM
Personally, I think eHam is well moderated. Sometimes people think freedom of expression gives them licence to be downright offensive. I have noticed this on other forums and have felt powerless to do anything about it. I think eHam offers a refreshing change.

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 15, 2012, 02:51:48 PM
Personally, I think eHam is well moderated.

Moderated=Censorship
Well Moderated=Well Censored

Forum Moderation is a nice word for censorship, kinda like the nice word "ethnic cleansing" really means killing.  ;)

Personally I have no problem with moderation on a forum if it is equally applied to all and the Moderation Rules are posted prominently for all to Read.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 15, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
Moderated=Censorship
Well Moderated=Well Censored

Moderate : Kept or keeping within reasonable or proper limits; not extreme, excessive, or intense.

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: WA7RBC on July 15, 2012, 04:00:53 PM
I couldn't agree more with Fred!    :D


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC4RD on July 16, 2012, 04:09:11 AM
I couldn't agree more with Fred!    :D

Same here!  I've never noticed any "censorship," myself.  But if it exists, and it's why this place is free of the ugly political and personal arguing that has made another big discussion site so ugly, then I'm all FOR it.   Let's treat each other with basic courtesy and respect, and try not to start pointless arguments or insult each other.  I've been using online discussion groups since 1990, long before the web, and I've never seen anything GOOD come of insults or pointless bickering.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 16, 2012, 06:20:19 AM
...Let's treat each other with basic courtesy and respect, and try not to start pointless arguments or insult each other...

...I've never seen anything GOOD come of insults or pointless bickering.


Bravo!  The almost perfect solution.  Too bad not too many people here will heed it.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 16, 2012, 01:54:16 PM
My paid eham subscription is up in a couple of weeks. Because of this frequent moderation I will no longer support eham with $$$.

Somehow in a couple weeks I believe my attitude will change about eham moderation. Since I will no longer support eham with $$ I doubt I will really care about being moderated. After all, I will not be paying $$ to get censored.  :D :D

I doubt the majority of hams here support eham with subscription $$. Maybe that is why the new censorship bothers so few...

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: WS3N on July 16, 2012, 03:23:06 PM
My paid eham subscription is up in a couple of weeks. Because of this frequent moderation I will no longer support eham with $$$.

Somehow in a couple weeks I believe my attitude will change about eham moderation. Since I will no longer support eham with $$ I doubt I will really care about being moderated. After all, I will not be paying $$ to get censored.  :D :D

I doubt the majority of hams here support eham with subscription $$. Maybe that is why the new censorship bothers so few...

Stan K9IUQ

That didn't last long.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 16, 2012, 04:21:04 PM
Hi Stan,

I'm glad to support eHam with my subscription. I happen to think it is a well run site and the moderators do there best to keep things civilized. I have never had cause to complain here. I could tell you about another site were I have come across all manner of offensive things. But let's not go there. Suffice to say I don't subscribe to that. At the end of the day if you are not happy then you are entitled to complain and take your $$$ elsewhere.

Best of luck

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 16, 2012, 04:54:49 PM
Hello,
I have experienced the moderation...  I posted a link to an off site review, and the post evaporated.  I know it did, because Google showed it, but when I tried to view it, it was no longer there...  I wrote the moderator, asking the status of my post, got a single reply, asking where it was, I answered, and nothing for weeks past that...  What can you say...  Moderation IS going on, and in my opinion it would have been nice to get a reason for the removal of my post.

Dave
For equipment reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 16, 2012, 05:57:47 PM
Moderation IS going on, and in my opinion it would have been nice to get a reason for the removal of my post.

I have never gotten any eham response to any of my posts that got deleted. It seems since there are no Posted rules of conduct, we are at the mercy of whomever is moderating that day. Also I have noticed it is now eham policy to moderate Reviews, they do not get posted until a moderator reads the review. Advertiser Protection perhaps......... Maybe this attitude has extended to the Forums also. Protect the Advertisers? Hey, not too far fetched as other Ham Radio outlets do the same thing.

Stan K9IUQ





Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 16, 2012, 06:02:39 PM
That didn't last long.

 :D :D Yes, it is hard to get mad at something you do not pay for. Free Ham Software is a great example. Few will complain about it if it is free. Start charging $$ and it is a different story. HRD comes to mind.  ;)

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NA4M on July 16, 2012, 06:53:32 PM


Also I have noticed it is now eham policy to moderate Reviews, they do not get posted until a moderator reads the review. Advertiser Protection perhaps......


Screening newly submitted Product Reviews is not new.  Been doing that for quite some time. 

As for "Advertiser Protection" being a motivation for review screening - that's a poor and inaccurate accusation for eHam's effort to try and keep the reviews within the published product review guidelines.

 73 Phil NA4M
eHam Product Reviews Manager  (but not Forums Manager!)
 


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 17, 2012, 04:16:24 AM
I've been using this site for over a decade now, and I've been censored exactly once--and that post deserved to be removed.  I've never had a problem with censoring here, and I doubt that I ever will.  It does come down to courtesy, and common sense--something that is sadly lacking on the entire www on sites like this one.

If you want to come here to lambaste everyone and everything, you deserve what you get.  Try to be polite and look at things from the other point of view before you post, and I doubt that you'll ever have any trouble here.  Just my .02, non-inflation adjusted!


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC4RD on July 17, 2012, 04:24:20 AM
Try to be polite and look at things from the other point of view before you post, and I doubt that you'll ever have any trouble here.  Just my .02, non-inflation adjusted!

Chris, you said a mouthful.  Over many years, I've seen more websites, usenet groups, Fidonet echos, and mailing lists just *ruined* by a few malcontents, than I can begin to count.   And eHam has been the best-behaved, most useful and helpful, nicest site I've seen, for many years now.   If it takes a bit of "moderation" to do that, I'm FINE with it!  And if users practiced "moderation" in their posts, as you said above, the moderators wouldn't need to do much moderating, would they?  ;)


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 17, 2012, 04:59:01 AM
OH yes. Always Go with the majority view. Never have a differing view from anyone. Agree with everyone and do not rock the boat.
You will never be moderated.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 17, 2012, 05:47:43 AM
If you want to come here to lambaste everyone and everything, you deserve what you get.  Try to be polite and look at things from the other point of view before you post, and I doubt that you'll ever have any trouble here.  Just my .02, non-inflation adjusted!
Why assume that a good lambasting happened?  My post was a simple note and link to a review, which was pretty fair, I think...  It however was moderated out with no reason given.
Dave
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K2CMH on July 17, 2012, 06:01:32 AM
A common theme seems to be emerging....people seem to be ticked off at not being given feedback as to why their post was removed more so than just the fact that it was removed....just an observation, not that it really matters...lol



Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 17, 2012, 06:39:06 AM
A common theme seems to be emerging....people seem to be ticked off at not being given feedback as to why their post was removed more so than just the fact that it was removed....just an observation, not that it really matters...lol
You sir have nailed it on the head!  Had a reasonable reason been given for my post being deleted, I would not have ever even posted to this thread.  I had in fact, had come to the conclusion that I was not even going to mention it in public until this thread popped up, then I decided to not mention it, however, this thread seems normal, not a big rant fest, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.

Moderation is expected in ANY on-line posting setup...  If and only if the forums rules have been broken, or if the post is just simply insulting, the act of moderation, should be followed with a reason, ALWAYS, else you lose the training effect of moderation...  If it is not, then the moderation just seems arbitrary.  Arbitrary moderation is the death of a group in the long run, and as this thread shows, it does tick off some people.  I am not one of the no moderation should ever happen folks, but give a reason please!

If eHam does not want me to post links to outside reviews, then tell me...  Don't just toast a post and give no reason.  Worse don't answer an email about it, asking which post, then ignore the response, which was polite, and asked for the moderation reason as happened to me on eHam a few weeks ago.  The problem with this sort of moderation is that it makes the users nervous, I am half expecting this post to get moderated...  If I agree, then I will follow the rules, if not, then I will leave the group, it is not my forum, and the moderators get to run things as they feel appropriate...  It's really simple to run a group, if there are not enough people, then recruit more, there are hundreds if not thousands of people that would be happy to help in moderation of the forums here on eHam.

I moderate two yahoo groups, one with 4K users, I NEVER moderate a post without sending the person a personal note covering why the moderation occurred.  I have to moderate about 1 in 1000 posts, (at most).  If the eHam moderators want to drive traffic to the reviews section, and not allow outside links, that is fine, just let me know, else I get ticked about things.

Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K2CMH on July 17, 2012, 07:38:32 AM
Quote
Moderation is expected in ANY on-line posting setup...  If and only if the forums rules have been broken, or if the post is just simply insulting, the act of moderation, should be followed with a reason, ALWAYS, else you lose the training effect of moderation.

Exactly.  I think that is what is frustrating people, they have no feedback and thus no way to know what it is they did wrong.  Without that knowledge, they probably feel they are likely to make the same mistake again.  After all, if you don't know what is broken, how can you possibly fix it.  

Although the site owners are by no means required to do so, I think it would be in everyone's best interest if a set of forum guidelines were posted so that everyone (including the moderators) knows what to expect.  By doing that as well as letting people know why their post was removed, I feel it would lower the frustration level.

I have never had a post removed (however, I'm not a frequent poster), but what I don't want to see happen is good people that contribute get frustrated and stop posting, which would eventually dilute the usefuleness of the site.

I come here to learn, there are a lot of very informative posts by very smart people.  I want those people to hang around and continue posting.

Personally, I have pretty thick skin and don't get offended easily.  If I come across a post I don't like, I just skip through it.  I would like the opportunity to read all opinions, whether or not I agree with them.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 17, 2012, 08:01:10 AM
Quote
Personally, I have pretty thick skin and don't get offended easily.  If I come across a post I don't like, I just skip through it.  I would like the opportunity to read all opinions, whether or not I agree with them.

Yup...  Same for me, If I see a post I do not want to read, then I skip it as well.  I think I have had less than five posts moderated in the past 15 years of being on-line, (one of which was here, and recently), in most cases, it was exactly as it was here, no reason, not Idea why, the post just evaporated... 

It is not a good sign to see this sort of thing start here, as I also like to see what others think about something.  I almost never purchase something without looking over the on-line posts about that item...  Alas, I suspect that in the long run we are all in for removed posts with no explanation.  The moderators after all get to do as they please, as it is their forum...  If they are watching this thread, then they should contribute, if they are not watching this thread, then they should be...  Either way, not seeing moderator input is worrisome...

Dave
http://ww.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 17, 2012, 08:54:51 AM
Judging by some of the responses here it seems that those who are complaining know exactly why their posts are being moderated. Maybe, it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post and stop blaming the moderators! ;)

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 17, 2012, 09:47:20 AM
Judging by some of the responses here it seems that those who are complaining know exactly why their posts are being moderated. Maybe, it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post and stop blaming the moderators! ;)


I have no idea why my post was moderated...  Given that only a few, (maybe only me), have commented about a specific post of their's being moderated, I assume you are responding to my last post.  I see no way you could extrapolate your quote from the provided data in any reasonable fashion... 

After the fact, in public, analysis, as we are doing now, certainly makes one think about the reasons, (and you then have more data; your post got moderated, and now you know something you did not know at the time of the post), it offers a range of reasons, none of which one is sure of however.  The lack of a reason seems impolite to me, it leaves me guessing why my post was removed. 

This seems to me to not be a good thing over the long run.  If a significant number of users begin to wonder if a post will be moderated, then the posters will start to modify their posts in ways the moderators may not want, i.e. not saying things they think will trigger the moderators, regardless of their real feelings...

Self review of a pending post is always a good thing, as I, and I assume many others do...  It appears to me that you are reading in a lot more to the posts, than there is really here...  If one tags an intelligent discussion as complaining, (as I believe you have), then it becomes really simple to make posts such as your last one... 

Clarity in everything is a good thing, fog in the reasons for moderation is a bad thing...   

Dave
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K2CMH on July 17, 2012, 09:57:34 AM
Quote
Judging by some of the responses here it seems that those who are complaining know exactly why their posts are being moderated. Maybe, it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post and stop blaming the moderators!

I can't say that after reading all of the messages in this thread that I have seen information that would lead me to believe that the people that had posts removed know why.  I actually came to the opposite conclusion, that they don't know why, which is why they are upset.  Would you care to share specifically what it is that caused you to arrive at the conclusion that you did?


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 17, 2012, 01:19:23 PM
Quote
Judging by some of the responses here it seems that those who are complaining know exactly why their posts are being moderated. Maybe, it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post and stop blaming the moderators!

I can't say that after reading all of the messages in this thread that I have seen information that would lead me to believe that the people that had posts removed know why.  I actually came to the opposite conclusion, that they don't know why, which is why they are upset.  Would you care to share specifically what it is that caused you to arrive at the conclusion that you did?

I suggest you read the posts more carefully. The complainants allude to why they feel their posts were moderated and I agree. Most people value their experience here on eHam because it is free from the usual trashing that goes on, on other sites. Moreover there is a better class of Ham here. I for one sure hope it stays that way! Besides, at the end of the day if your not happy there is always another forum that will allow you to say and do what you please. But this aint it!

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 17, 2012, 01:53:46 PM
The complainants allude to why they feel their posts were moderated and I agree.

Most people value their experience here on eHam because it is free from the usual trashing that goes on, on other sites. Moreover there is a better class of Ham here.

The only way I would know why a post was censored (deleted) would be if the moderator would inform me.

Your latter comments are laughable. Are you a newbie? How long have you been using eham?

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 17, 2012, 03:57:34 PM
Quote
I suggest you read the posts more carefully. The complainants allude to why they feel their posts were moderated and I agree. Most people value their experience here on eHam because it is free from the usual trashing that goes on, on other sites. Moreover there is a better class of Ham here. I for one sure hope it stays that way! Besides, at the end of the day if your not happy there is always another forum that will allow you to say and do what you please. But this aint it!

73,

Fred EI4GMB

Hello Fred,
Where EXACTLY is the allusion that I am aware of the reason for any moderation?  Are you a moderator?  You appear to be stating policy as if it is a given you have the inside track on why all of this is happening.

I am unsure how to respond to the "better class of ham" statement at all...  I suspect that the lessor classes of hams might take great offence to that sort of elitism.

Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net
 


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N4NYY on July 17, 2012, 04:41:58 PM
Judging by some of the responses here it seems that those who are complaining know exactly why their posts are being moderated. Maybe, it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post and stop blaming the moderators! ;)

73,

Fred EI4GMB

Not quite. I do not have a problem with them censoring me if I get personal, and call someone a name. I have done it, and they have removed it, and rightfully so. But they have also removed posts that they felt did not offer anything to the thread. In one case, they censored and removed one post from a person here, then he complained, and they try to restore it like nothing happened, and only posted part of the original quote. It was highly embarrassing. To make matter worse, if was during that time where eham has that black ribbon on its logo to protest that censorship law that was in front of congress.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 18, 2012, 03:56:48 AM
OH yes. Always Go with the majority view. Never have a differing view from anyone. Agree with everyone and do not rock the boat.
You will never be moderated.

That isn't what was said, Stan, and you know it.  Go ahead and disagree--BUT--do so politely and consider what you say before you hit that 'post' button.  I've always thought that one simple test suffices for what you're going to say--would you say it to your mother (although I haven't had that opportunity for 40+ years) or at the dinner table in front of guests?  If you wouldn't, then why would you want to post it here?


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 18, 2012, 04:15:36 AM
If you want to come here to lambaste everyone and everything, you deserve what you get.  Try to be polite and look at things from the other point of view before you post, and I doubt that you'll ever have any trouble here.  Just my .02, non-inflation adjusted!
Why assume that a good lambasting happened?  My post was a simple note and link to a review, which was pretty fair, I think...  It however was moderated out with no reason given.

OK Dave, I see your point there.  Consider this, however--What if the review--or the reviewer--that was referred to was the subject of some prior problem on this site?  If that were the case and the reviewer were banned, (yes, I believe that has happened)  do you think the website admins were within their rights to remove it?  Just food for thought.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 18, 2012, 04:21:58 AM
OK, I see the point that is trying to be made here--the failure of the admins to notify a poster if their posts are removed.  There is something else to be considered, though.  The complainants computer system, its connection to the net, (the ISP) and just maybe the internet itself.  Sometimes, for no reason, things just don't go right--posts never make it to the board.  Maybe computer keys or mouse buttons are being pushed too fast, maybe there is a compatibility problem with the software or equipment, and maybe the poster isn't checking their just made post to be sure it made it to the board.  These things happen too. 

Now, I'm not saying that that is the reason behind every missing post, but it IS something to consider.

My satellite TV feed went out this past weekend, and I spent close to an hour trying to find a fault in the dish, cabling and or receiver that I have.  Everything seemed to be OK, but still no signal.  Then it suddenly came back on.  I found out later, when I called the service center to hook up a new receiver, that the uplink from the transmission center was down for over two hours that day--and that people were calling the service center complaining that they've paid their bill, but had no TV service.

The point is that before you blame everything on the people whose service you are using, check your end and the go between--if you can.  Maybe the problem isn't where you think it is.  73!


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: KI4SDY on July 18, 2012, 09:12:37 AM
I thought I would wait for a while and let most of the eHam.net regulars post their expected remarks again, before I commented on this ongoing injustice. If something is not fair for one, it is not fair for anyone. For a complete comprehensive review of this problem, please read the previous string entitled "eHam Moderation" from March 8, 2012 and note the suggestions I made then.  ;)

It is interesting, and gratifying to know, that the eHam.net community is coming to the same conclusion that I did, long ago. That moderation on eHam.net is not being handled in an equitable manner. I guess this proves that I was, in fact, the "enlightened" one! ;D

The root of the problem is that people will be people. They have biases and favorites. Unfortunately that plays over into the moderation on eHam.net. It is something that should be expected as human nature and it should not be a surprise to those who are educated in social science.  :o

So how do you overcome human tendencies not to be fair with everyone? Very simple! Just like I proposed before and other victims of the system are asking for now, eHam.net needs to have the rules posted for everyone to read and they must engage in fair and effective moderation, using those rules as guide. Then there will not be a need to notify anyone why their post was removed. They would already be placed on notice in advance.  :-*

There are those who have and will attack this simple and logical solution, but I am sure the rest of you realize that they are part of the problem. These "flamers and then complainers" are just trying to protect their turf, where they feel safe to harass others. :(  


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 18, 2012, 09:38:47 AM

If something is not fair for one, it is not fair for anyone.

That moderation on eHam.net is not being handled in an equitable manner.

The root of the problem is that people will be people. They have biases and favorites.

eHam.net needs to have the rules posted for everyone to read and they must engage in fair and effective moderation, using those rules as guide.

All of the above quotes are excellent. As noted it has been hashed over and over before. It is interesting and damning that no Forum Moderator has stepped up to the plate in this discussion and told eham's view on censorship.

They can run eham forums anyway they want. I can spend my eham subscription $$$ elswhere.

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC5UP on July 18, 2012, 11:16:01 AM
http://agilemindstorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dead-Horse-Theory.jpg


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N9RO on July 18, 2012, 11:37:51 AM
I would NOT pay eHam a dime!  They sell advertisements and subscriptions but yet rely on volunteers to operate, what a money making machine for a few.   I would guess the lack of professional moderation could be attributed to that?

Tim - N9RO


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 18, 2012, 12:00:48 PM
rely on volunteers to operate,

I would guess the lack of professional moderation could be attributed to that?

Tim - N9RO


Tim, you just said what I have been thinking for sometime. They are not getting any more of my dimes and I am thinking of turning on AD Block for eham and eliminate their advertisements too....

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 18, 2012, 02:32:13 PM
Frequently I get sworn at and I get called names all the time.
Stan K9IUQ
So what are you doing to engender such a response? My guess is you are probably causing offense!

If eHam does not want me to post links to outside reviews...
Dave
NK7C
Seems you have a cheek! After all you are linking to a blog that is competing directly with the reviews section of eHam!

As I said maybe it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post instead of blaming the moderators! ;)

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K9IUQ on July 18, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
So what are you doing to engender such a response? My guess is you are probably causing offense!

No doubt. Owners of Flexradios find my truthful facts and views differ from theirs....   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NA4M on July 18, 2012, 06:18:28 PM
eHam.net needs to have the rules posted for everyone to read and they must engage in fair and effective moderation, using those rules as guide. Then there will not be a need to notify anyone why their post was removed. They would already be placed on notice in advance.  :-*

Posting "the rules" is a noble idea.   

However, in practice it falls short.   Case in point.   There have been "rules" or product review guide lines publicly posted for many years.  These rules/guide lines are our basis for fair and effective screening of reviews.

But given the number of reviews that continue to have to be regularly removed for not following these posted rules only shows that as stated "people are people".  They either don't bother to look around the site to see if there are rules, or they find the rules but don't read them, or they read the rules and then ignore them and post what they want anyway.  Then they ask "why was my review removed"?    The volume of review removals remains way more than allows for an individual personalized explanation of which published rule they didn't follow for each review removed.

So posting "rules" is no panacea given human nature.

Why would posted Forum rules be treated any differently?

73 Phil NA4M
eHam Product Reviews Manager  (but not Forums manager!)


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 18, 2012, 07:18:39 PM
Quote
OK Dave, I see your point there.  Consider this, however--What if the review--or the reviewer--that was referred to was the subject of some prior problem on this site?  If that were the case and the reviewer were banned, (yes, I believe that has happened)  do you think the website admins were within their rights to remove it?  Just food for thought.

Regarding your scenerio, In my case, none of the items you posit were in play, so nothing you suggested would apply here, I have never been banned from an on-line site, and have had only a very few posts moderated over the past 20 years of on-line use.  I posted a simple link to an off-site review, which was deleted for no apparent reason.   Prior to posting, I looked all over the site trying to find a set of posting rules, and found nothing to indicate this would trigger the moderator to remove my post, hence my concern. 

As far as the Moderators are concerned, they are, (and should be), allowed to do ANYTHING they want, fair or unfair, (as defined by the general consensus), it is after all, their site.  The site however will suffer the consequence of the admins "moderation" policy's over the long haul. That is to say, that if they moderate poorly, (as I believer happened to my post), and they do it often, (which appears to be happening as per this thread), then over the long haul people will notice, if people notice, then the posting process begins to erode and things go bad as users try and not offend the moderators, as opposed to speaking their minds in a fair, and reasonable way.  This destroys a site in the long run.  I know I will rethink any future contribution to this site as a result of this incident.

I believe that once the moderation issue was brought up, the moderators should have spoken up, and explained what happened, and why.  Remember, I wrote the moderator an e-mail, and asked what happened to my post, I got an answer, asking if it were a post or a review.  I answered the email, in a polite manor, covering the post, and got no reply back, so I know that at least for a moment I had a moderators attention, and then nothing...  This leads me to believe one of three things:

1.  The moderator does not care.
2.  The moderator forgot.
3.  The wrong moderator answered my email.

Any of the above is bad from my viewpoint.  I take my moderation duties seriously on Yahoo, and with 4K users in one group I moderate, if I behaved this way, the Yahoo users would have my head, as they should.  That is because I want the Yahoo users to be the forum, not just be people sending mail to each other in something I control.  It is important to me that the users control the group direction, not me...  I'm just the traffic cop, and I like it that way. 

I have heard nothing from the moderators, either here, or in private email, (as it should be done), so I am left in the dark, and what is worse, I went to the effort to look for something covering the posting rules, and found none.

Thanks for your reply,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 18, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
Quote
Seems you have a cheek! After all you are linking to a blog that is competing directly with the reviews section of eHam!

As I said maybe it is time to be a little more self-critical about what we post instead of blaming the moderators! ;)

73,

Fred EI4GMB

Fred,
You did not answer my question about where I alluded to knowing why my post was moderated, so I will assume you do not with do deal with that... 

Perhaps you are correct, perhaps eHam does not feel that other review sites are in their interests, (that would be sad in my opinion), but they have that right... 

You have posted the "don't blame the moderators" comment at least twice now, so I will deal with it:  I get to blame the moderators, when they do not post the rules, then enforce some hidden rule-set, which only they know, and not even bother to answer an email asking why...  Do they have to listen to me?  Nope, it is after all their forum.    However, I do get to blame, praise, thank, and/or ignore, anything I want to, it is after my thoughts...

73
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 19, 2012, 06:47:42 AM
You did not answer my question about where I alluded to knowing why my post was moderated, so I will assume you do not with do deal with that... 
73
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

If eHam does not want me to post links to outside reviews...
Dave
NK7Z

dahhh! ;D

73,

Fred EI4GMB





Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 19, 2012, 07:31:26 AM
Quote

dahhh! ;D

73,

Fred EI4GMB



Fred,
I agree with you...  People should be more self critical regarding their posts...  :)

73
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K5TR on July 20, 2012, 05:17:43 PM

Remember, I wrote the moderator an e-mail, and asked what happened to my post, I got an answer, asking if it were a post or a review.  I answered the email, in a polite manor, covering the post, and got no reply back, so I know that at least for a moment I had a moderators attention, and then nothing...  This leads me to believe one of three things:


I do know whom you emailed if it was me then I am sorry if I did not get back to you for some reason.  I do not know what the content of your post was - you say it was a link to a review on your site.  If the post was just a URL to a review on your site - then I would guess that is why it was removed.  The forums really should be about discussion in my view - not about posting posting a URL pointing to something on some other site.  That is not a discussion.  If you have a review of a product we do have a reviews section for product reviews. 

I know there are many things lacking on the eham.net site - oh how I know - there are so many things - the list is long and growing.

As I recall the post removal system does not have a way for notification to the user at that time so perhaps we need to improve that from both a programming standpoint and a policy standpoint.

The reality is that very few posts are ever removed from the eham forums.
 


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 20, 2012, 08:39:08 PM
Hi George,

First, thank you for stating your position, it is nice to finally have an admin to the site become involved in this!  I fully support whatever decision you make, as it is your site, and you of course do have the last word in things, as it should be... 

My only issue was that I spent some time looking for a set of rules prior to posting the announcement, found none, and posted it.  Another ham began the thread on censorship and I had decided I was not going to get involved, however the ensuing attempted flogging, reminded me of the DX Police on 20 we all know and love so well, so I became involved in the discussion in order to clarify my position.   

If you have not reviewed the ENTIRE thread, both here, and "Website self promotion by eham posts", I would highly recommend you do.  The response I received was less than kind, and if it had happened on any of my Yahoo groups, I would have spoken to the individuals and let them know in no uncertain terms to tone it down as they do not represent my position.  Fortunately I have a hard skin, (been doing on-line moderation of groups for 15 or 20 years now, all the way back to the GEnie days), so I have seen that sort of person before; I realized they did not represent the site itself as they were not moderators of anything here.

In any case, I shall not post links to my or any other reviews here anymore and thank you for clarifying eHams position on this.  I am assuming a sig link is OK?  If not please let me know.

Dave
NK7Z
For reviews and setups see:
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: KI4SDY on July 24, 2012, 08:02:24 AM
Posting "the rules" is a noble idea."

There is nothing "noble" about posting rules and educating the users of a resource concerning the proper use of that entity. In view of Webster's College Dictionary definition of the word, that would be a very narcissistic attitude to a logical first step effort at behavior modification. If posting rules has little or no effect on the public, why are millions spent by every developed country in the world posting highway signs, in an effort to procure compliance by drivers? Is it 100% effective? No! Nothing would be. However, it is effective enough to be worth the effort and expense. What would driving on the highway be like without traffic control signs? Chaos! ;)

"They either don't look around the site to see if there are rules, or they find rules but don't read them, or they read the rules and ignore them and post what they want anyway."

If you find that many users are not following your published rules, there is most likely a problem with the posting. Having looked over your effort, I would make the following comments and suggestions:

1. All or any eHam.net rules need to be published on the front page of the site and at the section where specific rules apply. Posted rules should be the first thing the user sees!  :o

2. Rules need to be clear and concise. That means short and specific, otherwise users will not take the time to read them or ignore them. Just like you said.  8)

3. Rules should be properly labeled as such. Not as "policies" or other names that give users the impression they are optional.  ::)

4. Unposted and or ambiguous rules never accomplish anything and always cause dissent, as we see here. When users of a site are asking for posted rules to regulate themselves, that should be a clear message they are needed.  >:(

So, in comparison to highway signs that are posted, highly visible, repetitive, clear and concise, how do your rules measure up? Not too well. That is why you are not getting the desired results.  ;)


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC4RD on July 24, 2012, 09:11:40 AM
The reality is that very few posts are ever removed from the eham forums.

 .. and that very very few of us ever find "censorship" to be a problem here on eHam.net.  The rules are very simple, and they are the same rules that apply to life in general:  "Try to be nice to others.  Don't deliberately make trouble.  Don't be a jerk unless you have no other choice." 

The vast majority of eHam users know these "rules" whether they're written or not.  The vast majority of us try to respect those rules.   The vast majority don't understand why there's such a fuss about this.  (Or we DO understand why, but we're trying to be nice so we don't say it.) 
 


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N2MG on July 24, 2012, 12:30:41 PM
^^^

What he said.

We've been through it before.

Mike N2MG


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: AC5UP on July 24, 2012, 01:42:15 PM
And then I think to myself, if the Lord High Rulers of this site truly were as draconian as some make them out to be..........................................






Would this thread still be here ??
 





.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 25, 2012, 06:31:53 AM
Good point.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 25, 2012, 06:39:02 AM
No matter what is done (or not done, as could be said) there are always going to be the few who think they're picked on and put down.  Poor them.  If they want exclusive rights to say and do as they please, let them start their own websites.  Guaranteed that there wouldn't be many people going to those websites though.....

E-ham webmasters and moderators do a good job just as they are doing it.  The simple proof of that is this is one of the top ham radio websites on the web today.

The solution for the miscreants and the malcontents is simple--go elsewhere and stop complaining.


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 26, 2012, 10:10:05 AM
No matter what is done (or not done, as could be said) there are always going to be the few who think they're picked on and put down.  Poor them.  If they want exclusive rights to say and do as they please, let them start their own websites.  Guaranteed that there wouldn't be many people going to those websites though.....

E-ham webmasters and moderators do a good job just as they are doing it.  The simple proof of that is this is one of the top ham radio websites on the web today.

The solution for the miscreants and the malcontents is simple--go elsewhere and stop complaining.

The polarization level in this thread is interesting and amazing.  It seems the thread is moving to extremes when it does not have too, almost as if people are forcing the extreme point of view intentionally...

At no point have I said the moderators are not doing a good job, in fact, I have mentioned several times that they have the right to moderate as they see fit.  As someone else pointed out, the thread was left intact, after the moderator was here, that is a good thing. 

What I did do was to questioned one incident of moderation, in an intelligent, and polite manor.  The ensuing melee that occurred because I questioned a moderation process was totally out of hand, and in my opinion uncalled for.     

As far as I was concerned the event was over...  However the idea of being lumped in as as one of the "miscreants and the malcontents", and being "picked on" does not set well with me.  I hope you were not referring to my posts when you used the terms, "miscreants and the malcontents", and "picked on".  If so, please feel free to quote one of my posts, where I said or implied this.  If not, please accept my apology in advance for suggesting you might do this.

Thanks,
Dave
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N2MG on July 26, 2012, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: NK7Z
I get to blame the moderators, when they do not post the rules, then enforce some hidden rule-set, which only they know, and not even bother to answer an email asking why...

I don't believe the rules for the reviews are hidden.  Far from it. They are at the far right of the Product Reviews main page.

http://www.eham.net/reviews

Here are two that are applicable in your case.

Quote
Don't submit reviews that consist of links/pointers off-site.
Quote
eHam reserves the right to edit or remove reviews and/or products for any reason at any time without prior notice.

The rules are quite detailed.  NA4M, our reviews manager is quite sensitive to the wants and needs of the users who take the time to create a review and post it.  He doesn't want anyone's time wasted, including his own. 

Unfortunately, as it goes for owner's manuals it also goes for online FAQ pages: they don't get read.

Mike N2MG


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 26, 2012, 06:56:42 PM
Hi Mike,

You quoted only a single line out of many messages, thus taking my text out of context and re-presenting it to support your position.  In order to clarify things for you; the quotes you provided were in response to a continuing thread from another ham, (containing dozens of lines of text), about how people should not blame the moderators for anything.  My quote is in actuality an answer to the other fellow hams thread, not directed at the moderators.  Although I do reserve the right to blame the moderators, (here, or anywhere else), for anything I feel is in error, just as they get to blame me for anything they see fit...  That does not make me right, nor does it make the moderators right, right being defined as morally correct.  As I have said in at least three posts, (and probably more), the moderators get to do anything they feel they want to, (they don't even have to be fair about it.  In this case, I believe it was an error, and not intentional that the moderators lost my email), it is their system, and they are in charge.  I would not have it any other way...  The moderators are responsible for the system and they must have God like powers...  You perhaps did not read all the messages?

Quote
Don't submit reviews that consist of links/pointers off-site.
Quote
Unfortunately, as it goes for owner's manuals it also goes for online FAQ pages: they don't get read.

Regarding the posted rules you supplied; my post was in the forums section, not the review portion of eHam.  You quoted a rule set from an entirely different section of eHam, (the review section), thus I am not surprised that I missed the rules as I searched the forums section of eHam only, which is where I posted.  Given that my post was not a review, (although it was a link to a review), it did not occur to me to search the review section.  In retrospect it probably would have been a good idea on my part to have looked there.  Had I seen the restriction on links in the Review section I would have not posted to the forums section with a link, as that would have violated the spirit the moderators are trying to set here.  Unfortunately, this renders your point about reading the FAQ's moot.  In any case,  the moderators clarified the point in a post, and I now understand that posting links to reviews is not acceptable to this site.

Thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: K1CJS on July 27, 2012, 04:03:25 AM
The polarization level in this thread is interesting and amazing.  It seems the thread is moving to extremes when it does not have too, almost as if people are forcing the extreme point of view intentionally....

....As far as I was concerned the event was over...  However the idea of being lumped in as as one of the "miscreants and the malcontents", and being "picked on" does not set well with me.  I hope you were not referring to my posts when you used the terms, "miscreants and the malcontents", and "picked on".  If so, please feel free to quote one of my posts, where I said or implied this.  If not, please accept my apology in advance for suggesting you might do this.

No, Dave, I was not referring to you.  I was referring to a couple of hams who did post in this thread however.  73!


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: EI4GMB on July 27, 2012, 07:17:02 AM
Hi Guys,

I thought this thread was done but I feel the need to add my own response. Personally, I cannot understand why it wouldn't dawn on someone that posting a reviews link is inappropriate on a site like e-ham. I am not an experienced moderator nor am I a regular user here but even I understand this. It is just common sense and something one should consider when posting on a site like this. Perhaps, like all good behavior in life it comes down to basic manners which some people have and some people haven't.
Finally, I have always had a keen sense of justice and I apologize if some of my recent posts have seemed unfair. I hope people can resolve their differences here and can turn instead to the wonderful resource eHam is.

73,

Fred EI4GMB


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: N2MG on July 27, 2012, 07:17:45 AM
Dave,

I apologize if I misunderstood your original position/complaint. I had a search run in the forums, and found no evidence that you had a post removed.  So I assumed it was in the Reviews.  You claim it was not the Reviews so in this case, we are at an impasse at this point as far as I can see.

As far as the forum goes, we deliberately avoid getting in the middle of most conversations by editing or deleting posts, but sometimes we do, and, as often as not, regret it later.  In this thread, your complaint was really the only one that was "news" and so I cared about it, which is why I jumped in and "targeted" your post.  I still find it difficult to believe you would have had a post - to the forum - pulled deliberately by anyone here just because it had a link to an offsite review. Not saying it did NOT happen, but as far as I am concerned, it should not have.

As far as any emails being ignored, I know from first hand experience, with all the "noise" in my inbox, and life's other demands, that I "lose" a conversation from time to time, sometimes finding it months later.  I also admit to tiring of some debates and letting the conversation die.

Mike N2MG


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 27, 2012, 08:04:19 AM
Quote
No, Dave, I was not referring to you.  I was referring to a couple of hams who did post in this thread however.  73!

Thank you sir...

Dave
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 27, 2012, 08:16:42 AM
Dave,

I apologize if I misunderstood your original position/complaint. I had a search run in the forums, and found no evidence that you had a post removed.  So I assumed it was in the Reviews.  You claim it was not the Reviews so in this case, we are at an impasse at this point as far as I can see.

As far as the forum goes, we deliberately avoid getting in the middle of most conversations by editing or deleting posts, but sometimes we do, and, as often as not, regret it later.  In this thread, your complaint was really the only one that was "news" and so I cared about it, which is why I jumped in and "targeted" your post.  I still find it difficult to believe you would have had a post - to the forum - pulled deliberately by anyone here just because it had a link to an offsite review. Not saying it did NOT happen, but as far as I am concerned, it should not have.

As far as any emails being ignored, I know from first hand experience, with all the "noise" in my inbox, and life's other demands, that I "lose" a conversation from time to time, sometimes finding it months later.  I also admit to tiring of some debates and letting the conversation die.

Mike N2MG

Mike,

No problem at all, like the other fellow I thought this thread was thankfully dead. 

For the record:  I think you have a thankless job, so thank you for your efforts here.  I like eHam, and again for the record, I think it is run well, please don't take any of my posts as an attack in general on the eHam site  At all times, I was referring to a single event only.

Dave
http://www.nk7z.net


Title: RE: Censorship on eham
Post by: NK7Z on July 28, 2012, 05:27:49 PM
Hi Guys,

I thought this thread was done but I feel the need to add my own response. Personally, I cannot understand why it wouldn't dawn on someone that posting a reviews link is inappropriate on a site like e-ham. I am not an experienced moderator nor am I a regular user here but even I understand this. It is just common sense and something one should consider when posting on a site like this. Perhaps, like all good behavior in life it comes down to basic manners which some people have and some people haven't.
Finally, I have always had a keen sense of justice and I apologize if some of my recent posts have seemed unfair. I hope people can resolve their differences here and can turn instead to the wonderful resource eHam is.

73,

Fred EI4GMB

Fred,

Should you wish to chat about this further, I will be happy too, feel free to email me directly.  I will cover why I believe your message here is inflammatory in eMail.

Dave
http://www.nk7z.net