eHam

eHam Forums => Elmers => Topic started by: M5AEO on July 26, 2012, 01:15:45 PM



Title: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: M5AEO on July 26, 2012, 01:15:45 PM
Yesterday afternoon I was tuning around 10m and there were no stations on except a very strong FM signal on 28,450Mhz.  Within a couple of seconds I realized it was a CB station.  I didn't really know what to do, so I tuned up my antenna for a few minutes, which made him furious but didn't get rid of him.  Obviously I couldn't explain to him that he was on the wrong band as I would have been comunicating with an unlicenced station, which is against the terms of my licence.  What should I do next time he's on?

Jonathan, M5AEO, London.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: KG4NEL on July 26, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
Spin the knob.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: KE3WD on July 26, 2012, 01:39:55 PM
Yes, turn the big knob and move on. 

Giving trolls any attention at all only serves to encourage them...


73


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 26, 2012, 01:42:10 PM
In the US 'deliberate interference' is an offence, even apparently, if it is to a station who is not authorised to be on that frequency. In the UK, the attitude is more of 'You cannot be causing interference to a station who is not licenced to use that frequency, or, if licenced, is a secondary user in a band in which you are the primary user'. This, incidentally, is arguably more in line with the international Radio Regulations.

The exception to this is a station in distress, who is entitled to use any mode or frequency to obtain assistance - but in that case, you would know what to do. (Obtain info on nature of distress, position and form of station - marine, aircraft land etc -, intentions of commander, number of people involved to pass on to relevant authorities)

My response has always been to call CQ over the top of CBers in 10 metres, and if need be, chase them up and down the band. Using the amplifier, of course. It has worked well many times. Leaving them alone just encourages them to keep doing it.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N4NYY on July 26, 2012, 05:20:47 PM
Spin the knob.

Well said. Don't agitate them.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on July 26, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
All I know is that I have a deal with the FCC... If I don't screw up too badly or too often they let me keep my license.

If someone operates where they shouldn't that's on them, not me, and two wrongs do not make a right.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K0ZN on July 26, 2012, 09:34:55 PM
You CANNOT "interfere" with an unlicensed station that is operating ILLEGALLY in an Amateur Band. In the legal world, the unlicensed station essentially does not exist!
That station has NO legal right to operation on that frequency, so it has absolutely NO "rights" of protection. The bootleg station has Zero protection under the law for its operation UNLESS it is transmitting REAL, true, "life and death" communications. i.e. "SOS" type communications.  The only other exception would possibly be a legitimate military operation in a ham band under *some* conditions or situations.

If the CB or bootleg station was operating on an Aviation channel would the pilot of the aircraft on that frequency be "interfering" with him??  Obviously, NO.  It is no different for a LICENSED Amateur Station, who has all the rights and privileges granted in the FCC license.  If the power line in your neighborhood is generating radio noise,
are YOU "interfering" with the power company's UNLICENSED generation of a radio signal??

Ultimately, you have TWO choices: (1.) "Spin the dial".  (2.) Chose to operate in accordance with the terms of your license on ANY frequency you are legal on.

In the real world, with all the REAL problems and seriously improper operation going on among hams, the LAST thing the FCC or a government agency would
spend their time on is chasing some ham who happened to be operating on top of some out of band CB'er or bootlegger.  The Feds have MUCH bigger fish to fry.

If I choose to test my equipment or antenna, or seek a contact by calling CQ, in accordance with the terms and conditions of my license, and on ANY frequency I am authorized to operate on, I am free to do so as long as I do not cause intentional and malicious interference to other LICENSED stations or services. If there is an illegal, unlicensed station on that frequency, that is HIS problem!

73,  K0ZN

 



Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 26, 2012, 11:36:32 PM
>The only other exception would possibly be a legitimate military operation in a ham band under *some* conditions or situations<

I'm interested here. What situations?


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K2DC on July 27, 2012, 02:27:37 AM
I have heard the US Coast GUard on 20M coordinating rescue operations with the Maritime Mobile Service Net, but it doesn't happen very often.

73,

Don, K2DC


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on July 27, 2012, 03:11:44 AM
...I am free to do so as long as I do not cause intentional and malicious interference to other LICENSED stations or services. If there is an illegal, unlicensed station on that frequency, that is HIS problem!

If you have a cite in support of your assertion that willful interference to an "unlicensed" or "illegal" station is permitted per FCC Part 97 I'd like to see it. And, while you're at it, please describe how you acquired the infallible ability to determine which stations are legal. I realize that being a self-appointed Radio Cop is a big ego stroke, but you should realize there is an ethical responsibility that goes along with that position lest you end up becoming just another a--hole on 10 Meters.

In the legal world, the unlicensed station essentially does not exist!

Dare I say that if you can hear a signal, it does exist. Therefore... In the words of FCC Part 97.101d...

Quote
ยง97.101 General standards. -
(a) In all respects not specifically covered by FCC Rules each amateur station must be operated in accordance with good engineering and good amateur practice.
(b) Each station licensee and each control operator must cooperate in selecting transmitting channels and in making the most effective use of the amateur service frequencies. No frequency will be assigned for the exclusive use of any station.
(c) At all times and on all frequencies, each control operator must give priority to stations providing emergency communications, except to stations transmitting communications for training drills and tests in RACES.
(d) No amateur operator shall willfully or maliciously interfere with or cause interference to any radio communication or signal.

What part of the phrase " any radio communication or signal " is confusing to you?
In the future you should consider referring to Part 97 for clarification of your license terms before willfully advertising your ignorance.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 27, 2012, 06:50:49 AM
'2DC,

OK. Splitting hairs, that is part of distress communications and so is totally legal. For some reason, I never think of the USCG as military, but of course, they are. One time, I worked with a guy who figured he didn't want to be shot at in Vietnam, so he 'draft dodged' as he put it, by doing something like 20 years in the Coast Guard!


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AA4PB on July 27, 2012, 07:29:23 AM
He was lucky that he didn't get assigned to one of the Coast Guard squadrons that were sent to Viet Nam to patrol the rivers. Try a Google search on "coast guard and viet nam".



Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AD4U on July 27, 2012, 11:30:47 AM
The same goes for people who "play" on repeaters.  I own 3 repeaters and I maintain 2 more.  Ocassionally somebody (HAM or maybe not) gets on just to agitate.  The very last thing anyone should do is challenge or belittle them.  JUST IGNORE THEM.  What they are doing is no fun if nobody responds.  Very soon they will get tired and go some where else.

Dick  AD4U


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 28, 2012, 03:42:29 AM
Repeaters are a different matter to using 10m for CB, and need a different treatment. Fortunately, we don't have a FCC Part 97. 101. The ONLY way to chase intruders out of 10m (or any other band where the amateur service is the primary user) is to make life difficult for them so that they go elsewhere. That includes Kenyan interbank comms on 40 metres.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: W8JI on July 28, 2012, 06:04:06 PM
'2DC,

OK. Splitting hairs, that is part of distress communications and so is totally legal. For some reason, I never think of the USCG as military, but of course, they are. One time, I worked with a guy who figured he didn't want to be shot at in Vietnam, so he 'draft dodged' as he put it, by doing something like 20 years in the Coast Guard!

People have a habit of inventing rules and repeating the rules they invent over and over until someone believes them. While we do have this rule:

Quote
(d) No amateur operator shall willfully or maliciously interfere with or cause interference to any radio communication or signal.

Interference is defined in definitions. Interference is:

Quote
(23) Harmful interference. Interference which endangers the functioning of a radionavigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.

Since the CB operator is not operating as a licensed radio communication service, and certainly operating in accordance with regulations, he has ZERO protection from interference. Any and all illegal radio operations have no protection at all from a licensed operation. It has been this way since time began.

The FCC has ruled on this before, and ruled illegal operations have no protection. The FCC has even gone further than that, ruling  uncoordinated repeaters have no protection against a coordinated repeater.

If a CBer is on some frequency and I feel like calling CQ or testing to make adjustments, I am under no obligation at all to avoid the illegal operation. I cannot cause harmful interference, because he is not an authorized user and is not following regulations.

The sole exception is if it is a station from another service operating in amateur bands to handle legitimate emergency communications. Some stations are authorized to go anywhere they need to handle emergencies.

73 Tom


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K0ZN on July 28, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
AC5UP:

I appreciate your attempt at being an amateur communications law attorney, but I stand by my position.  Just because I CHOOSE to operate legally and properly on a frequency that an ILLEGAL, unauthorized station is on, does not constitute "malicious" interference.

Please quote me the FCC section and paragraph that says ILLEGAL, UNauthorized stations, operating in violation of the Communications Act, have rights that are superior to licensed stations........

One of the key premises of Law is the "reasonable man theory".....suggest you look into that.

It would be nice if you knew as much about this subject as you think you do.

--  K0ZN


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 29, 2012, 02:19:17 AM
Actually, Tom, the way I read the RRs, any station in distress or responding to a station in distress can go anywhere. A station in distress can even legally use spark transmission! But I do agree with you.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on July 29, 2012, 08:08:19 AM
It would be nice if you knew as much about this subject as you think you do.

I second the notion! Excellent suggestion!

How so? Let's examine the logic used by yourself and W8JI by starting with the original question by M5AEO:
Quote
"Yesterday afternoon I was tuning around 10m and there were no stations on except a very strong FM signal on 28,450Mhz.  Within a couple of seconds I realized it was a CB station.  I didn't really know what to do, so I tuned up my antenna for a few minutes, which made him furious but didn't get rid of him."

Notice how the alleged CB'er created no interference with M5AEO and was the only signal heard on an otherwise empty band. And, as stated, M5AEO wasn't sure what to do about this alleged unlicensed signal within an amateur allocation, so he QRM'd the offending station. As the British say: Brilliant! Not only are we to assume that M5AEO has a keen sense of when a signal is legal, but we also find that M5AEO feels obligated to do something about an alleged interloper... Despite not knowing what to do.    (D'oh!)

This is what I call a Keystone Kop scenario. We also note the alleged infiltrator did not move back to the CB band and the exercise ended in failure.   (D'oh! x 2)

Bottom Line: M5AEO willfully interfered with another station based on an assumption about their legality.

For all I know this is perfectly acceptable behavior for an M5 station, but for those of us regulated by the FCC the answer to the question is a Part 97 slam-dunk no brainer:
Quote
97.101 (d) No amateur operator shall willfully or maliciously interfere with or cause interference to any radio communication or signal.

Not much wiggle room in the word "any". Until... W8JI looks up the Part 97 definition of "interference" to find:
Quote
(23) Harmful interference. Interference which endangers the functioning of a radionavigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.

Then, in a brilliant exhibition of logical gymnastics worthy of London 2012, W8JI goes on to assert that since the FCC definition of interference mentions only a service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.... We can assume, infer, imply, speculate, claim, declare that what the FCC really meant to say is that a service NOT operating in accordance (etc) is fair game for interference. No standing, no rights, no protection, you get the idea.

If that's what the FCC meant, why didn't they say so?

When I first saw the quote it reminded me of the old LORAN protection policy for the bottom end of 160, and that some allocations are shared with other services, like 60 Meters is today.

If W8JI is correct in his analysis, why doesn't 97.101(d) read something like: " ...or cause interference to any LICENSED radio communication or signal "

The FCC could clear up any vagueness about harmful interference with the addition of one word. But they haven't. Perhaps because prohibiting ANY willful or malicious interference created by an amateur station not only precludes the VFO Vigilantes from getting out of hand, but it's also good operating procedure.

Anyone care to argue against that?

Assuming that whenever something isn't specifically mentioned it's open season for pot-shot speculation is not the fast lane to enlightenment, but when that's all you have to work with...


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N4NYY on July 29, 2012, 08:34:23 AM
What too much looking into this. I still ragchew on CB for a couple ham friends because we are about 12 miles apart. We get people once in a while that will start breaking and annoy us. We simply ignore them. After they realize that no one is paying attention, they move on. Many of these QRMer really wipe my friends out, with S7+ signals. If they only knew I could not hear my friends, then they would just continue.



Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 29, 2012, 08:39:08 AM
'5UP,

With respect, I think you are missing the point.

Firstly, a station in 10m or any other band where the amateur service is a primary service and who is not an amateur or amateur satellite station and is not occupied in distress traffic is not, in the terms of the international Radio Regulations protected from interference. Even if it is licenced under RR4.4, it is not protected from interference from the primary service users of the band operating outside the jurisdiction of the country doing the licencing.

Secondly, the FCC can protect such operation from interference from US amateurs if they so desire. Other Administrations do not, and unless intruders into bands where the amateur service is primary are chased away, more and more intruders will be encouraged to come into the amateur bands.

Thirdly (and I have no clue as to the answer) how many intruders into primary amateur bands has the FCC through the State Department officially complained  to their Administrations about? Germany and the UK do quite frequently.



Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on July 29, 2012, 08:48:38 AM
Yesterday afternoon I was tuning around 10m and there were no stations on except a very strong FM signal on 28,450Mhz.  Within a couple of seconds I realized it was a CB station.  I didn't really know what to do, so I tuned up my antenna for a few minutes, which made him furious but didn't get rid of him.  Obviously I couldn't explain to him that he was on the wrong band as I would have been comunicating with an unlicenced station, which is against the terms of my licence.  What should I do next time he's on?

First, do not even attempt to even tell him he's on a frequency he shouldn't be on.  If you did so, you would be breaking the rules.

If you want to, make a recording of the person and send it to the FCC and/or the ARRL with complete details of the day, time and frequency that the infraction occured on.  If the other station keeps on using the frequency, make other recordings--the more the better--again with the day, time and frequency each infraction occured on.  BTW, the FCC prefers a CD with that info, and make sure they can tell one infraction from the next.

That will be enough to get someone, an Official Observer--or even an FCC listening post--to listen in.  If it keeps happening, they WILL track down the offender and fine him.  Don't hold your breath for that to happen, but it just may.  Remember, every CBer that intrudes on the ham bands that has been caught has had attention drawn to them by a ham willing to listen and report.  73!


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on July 29, 2012, 08:57:56 AM
AC5UP,  K0ZN is correct.  A licensed station operating legally is not, in any way, causing malicious interference to a station operating illegally in a band they have no right to operate in--not even if they transmit right over that illegal station.  The illegal station has no right to be there, and no right to claim 'interference'. 


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on July 29, 2012, 09:15:58 AM
With respect, I think you are missing the point.

Firstly, a station in 10m or any other band where the amateur service is a primary service and who is not an amateur or amateur satellite station and is not occupied in distress traffic is not, in the terms of the international Radio Regulations protected from interference. Even if it is licenced under RR4.4, it is not protected from interference from the primary service users of the band operating outside the jurisdiction of the country doing the licencing.

In the example given by M5AEO the band was dead and only one strong signal was heard. At the risk of speculating, would that imply the signal was local in origin and international regulations were not involved? Further... Since you operate in the same environment, is it considered good operating practice in the UK to interfere with a station you believe is operating in an allocation they are not licensed for? If someone did, would they be obligated to ID themselves at the top & bottom of their "test" transmission as required of US amateurs? If they did, would that be like responding to the interloper? You know: "Hey, douchebag, this is M5AEO --- (QRM, QRM, QRM) --- M5AEO clear". And... Since M5AEO failed to QRT the alleged interloper via QRM, what would be your best advice if and when a similar situation arises in the future?

Like.............. If we know what doesn't work, need it be repeated?

Secondly, the FCC can protect such operation from interference from US amateurs if they so desire. Other Administrations do not, and unless intruders into bands where the amateur service is primary are chased away, more and more intruders will be encouraged to come into the amateur bands.

I've been licensed for 17 years and following the hobby since the mid 60's... Used to buy QST and '73 magazine regularly and can assure you the same bootlegger argument has been used ad nauseum since before I became aware of the service and will probably be used long after I'm gone. It's bullsnot. The occurrence of intruders in the HF bands has been relatively constant over the past 50 years and the only reason 10 Meters is more prone to unlicensed operation is the plethora of "export" CB radios readily available on-line and at truck stops in the US.

Most Bubba's who drop the coin for a plug & play trick radio prefer the CB / Freeband frequencies anyway... Because they're far more likely to find someone to talk to below 28 MHz than above.

If I haven't made it clear enough, my perspective is strictly as a US licensee and I'm fully aware that other regulatory agencies may operate with other rules. I'm also aware, as N4NYY has mentioned, QRM'ing is rarely effective on the CB or amateur bands. IMHO I think it's exceptionally poor form.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on July 29, 2012, 09:20:25 AM
AC5UP,  K0ZN is correct.  A licensed station operating legally is not, in any way, causing malicious interference to a station operating illegally in a band they have no right to operate in--not even if they transmit right over that illegal station.  The illegal station has no right to be there, and no right to claim 'interference'. 

If you have any cite from the FCC that says that, SPECIFICALLY, I'd like to see it. We know licensed operation is protected from interference, but that does not imply an (alleged) unlicensed signal is QRM bait. As quoted, FCC Part 97.101(d) makes no distinction.

BTW: Why would a UK station like M5AEO report a CB'er to the FCC or ARRL ?


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on July 29, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
If you have any cite from the FCC that says that, SPECIFICALLY, I'd like to see it. We know licensed operation is protected from interference, but that does not imply an (alleged) unlicensed signal is QRM bait. As quoted, FCC Part 97.101(d) makes no distinction.

BTW: Why would a UK station like M5AEO report a CB'er to the FCC or ARRL ?

You've got a point about a foreign station reporting to the FCC/ARRL, but if that station heard evidence that the offending station WAS a US station, why shouldn't they.  If, of course, the station is in their own country, they should report it to the authorities in their country.

Now, about the other--anybody who goes looking for unlicensed station operating illegally just to transmit over them and intefere with them ought to go looking for a life.  But you ought to consider that the illegally operating station has no right AT ALL to be on that frequency.  If they have no right at all, they don't belong there at all, and can't legally claim they were interfered with, now can they?


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: W8JI on July 29, 2012, 10:03:55 AM
If you have any cite from the FCC that says that, SPECIFICALLY, I'd like to see it. We know licensed operation is protected from interference, but that does not imply an (alleged) unlicensed signal is QRM bait. As quoted, FCC Part 97.101(d) makes no distinction.

BTW: Why would a UK station like M5AEO report a CB'er to the FCC or ARRL ?

Harmful interference is defined by the FCC as interference with a station AUTHORIZED to operate and following rules, specifically:

Quote
(23) Harmful interference. Interference which endangers the functioning of a radionavigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.

Let me highlight key words, for those who will not read carefully:

(23) Harmful interference. Interference which endangers the functioning of a radionavigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.

A pirate or unlicensed station is not a Radiocommunication service, as defined by the FCC. Also, even if the station is licensed, it is not operating in accordance with regulations when out-of-band. As such, they have no protection.

Ignoring someone intentionally attracting attention by acting up is entirely different than ignoring someone intentionally trying to use a "clear frequency" that is illegal.

In the case of someone just operating to get attention, giving them attention can encourage their bad behavior. For example, a Ham swearing is probably doing so just to attract attention. If someone starts that, I just politely tell them I don't it is good behavior, and I leave. The last thing to do is to jam them. They want attention.

When I hear pirate CB operators on 11 meters, I make it a point to use that frequency. By avoiding them, and allowing unfettered communications, we generally make the problem worse. They are getting exactly what they want, a clear channel.
It's silly to move away and let them have a clear spot.

73 Tom


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 29, 2012, 10:53:02 AM
'CJS,

I thionk the point you are missing is that IF we don't do something about them, it encourages them to keep intruding.

Which is why we used to have go at the 'woodpecker' (the Russian OTH radar) - effectively, too!

On your argument, the IARU (Intruder Watch) is a waste of time, even though it has had some very good  and effective results.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: W0BTU on July 29, 2012, 11:01:21 AM
When I hear pirate CB operators on 11 meters, I make it a point to use that frequency. By avoiding them, and allowing unfettered communications, we generally make the problem worse. They are getting exactly what they want, a clear channel.
It's silly to move away and let them have a clear spot.

Although I don't make a point of doing that, last time we sent G E T  L O S T around 28.1, the illegal stations did.  ;D


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 29, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
Lets remember with intruders.....

QRMing them does work. It even persuaded Radio Pakistan to move from 7010 kHz back in the late 50s. (I've been licenced for 49 years this year and a listener since 1956) It worked on the 'Woodpecker' and it works on the CB intruders.

Not acceptable?

So we shouldn't accept the Russian Navy RTTY on 14127?  Like hell we should. Give them QRM and make the b******s move! Same with truckers and Moscow taxis in 10 metres. And any other intruder.

There is a story, possibly apochryphal, that in the early 1980s, the RAN (Royal Australian Navy) complained to ACMA (the Australian administration) about QRM from amateurs in the 18 MHz band. Turned out that they had not been informed that 18068 to 18168 kHz had become a 'Amateur service primary' band at WRC '79. Without the QRM, they would still be there....





Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on July 30, 2012, 04:09:59 AM
'CJS,

I thionk the point you are missing is that IF we don't do something about them, it encourages them to keep intruding.

Which is why we used to have go at the 'woodpecker' (the Russian OTH radar) - effectively, too!

On your argument, the IARU (Intruder Watch) is a waste of time, even though it has had some very good  and effective results.

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't say 'do nothing.'  Nor did I say that you shouldn't be able to transmit over them.  What I did say is that hams who go and look for these lawbreakers JUST TO transmit over them ought to get a life.  IOW, if that is all a ham is going to do, he's either got no friends--or too much time on his hands.  73!


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: W9HQE on July 30, 2012, 03:12:43 PM
The question is did he even know he was bleeding over to 10 meter? The way some hacks set up cbs for guys I am not surprised when I read they are coming over on public service bands on fm let alone amateur bands if he knew and set up his radio to cause interference turn him in to the FCC they need the money they will get for fines.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K9ZMD on July 31, 2012, 01:08:16 AM
Up to three pages of speculation already, some of it on target, some of it over the top.  Anyone who has been around long enough will remember that the subject was addressed some time ago by the FCC.  Riley Hollingsworth, who was then the voice (and seemingly the only hammer) of the FCC enforcement division, quite clearly stated that stations operating illegally on the amateur bands had no protection from interference; therefore, an amateur station transmitting over those illegal signals was not in violation of the regulations pertaining to interference.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on July 31, 2012, 02:50:28 AM
W9HQE,

The OP is not in the US, neither is the intruder. Thus the FCC have no involvement.

Although considering where M5AEO lives, and the saturation of  interference chasing people around that area for the Olympics (both permanent and temporary staff and people from other parts of Europe 'borrowed' for the occasion, it is a foolhardy thing right now for anyone to operate illegally on any band anywhere round there!


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: M5AEO on August 01, 2012, 05:10:56 AM
I knew I shouldn't have said anything on here!  Just to clarify.....I do not go around chasing illegal ops because I 'haven't got a life'!  I have a very nice life, enjoying amateur radio!   It's just that I spent a lot of time and effort passing the Radio Amateurs Exam and the Morse code test to get my licence and I don't see why someone who has made no effort at all should get the same privileges as me for nothing.  Some suggest that I should speak to this unlicenced intruder and challenge him, but according to my licence this would be illegal.  I felt that making some antenna tests was the most subtle way to deal with this situation.  Hopefully this CB op will come to the conclusion that the band is not reliable for him and will move back down to 27Mhz.

Jonathan, M5AEO


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on August 01, 2012, 08:31:49 AM
Jonathan, I didn't aim that comment at you.  That wasn't my intention, and I apologise that I didn't make that clear.  Some ops DO go looking for that kind of thing just to do that, and THOSE are the ones I targeted.

One nice thought--if that person does make enough of a stir, he'll be getting a knock on the door from officials, something that you'll never be on the receiving end of!


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on August 01, 2012, 08:45:53 AM
They have taken some of the bottom end of 2 metres for the olympics rubbish. Should be only temporary....


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: AC5UP on August 01, 2012, 12:21:12 PM
This is why G3RZP has a problem with the Olympics......
http://www.nbcolympics.com/archery/medals/2012-standings/by-nation/index.html

Archery.     GB did not medal.

After CENTURIES of tales from Nottingham and Sherwood Forest about the legendary longbow archers of England, what happened this week?

South Korea, Italy and the USA take the top three spots.

Great Britain?    Bupkus.

If knife throwing was an Olympic event this would be like the Sicilian team losing to Ireland.

Unthinkable.

For those of you who haven't been to Nottingham in a while, click this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Robin_Hood_Memorial.jpg/400px-Robin_Hood_Memorial.jpg

That isn't Prince Harry, and damn sure isn't anyone who made the GB Olympic archery team.

I'm not surprised, as the most famous actor to play Robin Hood on film was either Douglas Fairbanks or Errol Flynn and neither one of them took breaks for Tea Time. Then there's the concept of Karma. Any country so rude as to throw an elderly woman out of a helicopter high above Olympic Stadium deserves to lose at archery.

And so they did.    Four Times..................   ;)


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: G3RZP on August 02, 2012, 12:17:37 AM
5UP

Don't start me on about the blasted olympics. An enormous waste of money and time to polish the egos of politicians, journalists and parasites who should be doing a useful job of work - like sewer cleaning. Costs far more than is admitted because of disruption to business.

All the French people I know are very happy Paris didn't get it because of the cost.

Actually, the best longbow archers were generally Welsh, and Nottinghamshire should be more famous for the oil wells and the now closed coal mines.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: W8JI on August 07, 2012, 04:34:45 AM
Jonathan, I didn't aim that comment at you.  That wasn't my intention, and I apologise that I didn't make that clear.  Some ops DO go looking for that kind of thing just to do that, and THOSE are the ones I targeted.


Good for those people! Defending Ham bands from illegal intrusion is time worth spending.
 
The main reason freebanders and pirates get on Ham bands is the search for a new private frequency. The quieter and less disturbed, the better for the illegal op. The rougher time authorized users give pirates on Ham bands, the less likely they are to stay.

Supporting clear frequencies for pirates is working against Ham radio.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on August 07, 2012, 05:46:28 AM
Didn't say that you shouldn't target those illegal freebanders.  DID say that hams who only go on the bands to look for those freebanders and interfere with their games ought to get a life.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K9FV on August 07, 2012, 07:44:02 PM
@Tom (W8JI) - good to see you posting again..... and as usual with the same well thought out posts - just the facts.  Need more posts like that.

I felt Tom made it pretty clear with the quote from regs
Quote
(23) Harmful interference. Interference which endangers the functioning of a radionavigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations.

FCC made it pretty clear what interference is: "radiocommunication service operating in accordance with the Radio Regulations."

Note the "in accordance with" - certainly not an illegal transmission.

73 de Ken H>   


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N9KX on August 19, 2012, 07:08:47 AM
I knew I shouldn't have said anything on here!  Just to clarify.....I do not go around chasing illegal ops because I 'haven't got a life'!  I have a very nice life, enjoying amateur radio!   It's just that I spent a lot of time and effort passing the Radio Amateurs Exam and the Morse code test to get my licence and I don't see why someone who has made no effort at all should get the same privileges as me for nothing.  Some suggest that I should speak to this unlicenced intruder and challenge him, but according to my licence this would be illegal.  I felt that making some antenna tests was the most subtle way to deal with this situation.  Hopefully this CB op will come to the conclusion that the band is not reliable for him and will move back down to 27Mhz.

Jonathan, M5AEO


After reading this thread I like your approach Jonathan and might modify it slightly by transmitting something like: 

"Attention all licensed amateur radio operators, there is an UN-licensed station *illegally* transmitting on this frequency."  Apparently he does not realize he is in danger of facing severe legal consequences for his unlicensed & illegal transmissions, or he mistakenly believes he is operating within the legal confines of the Citizen's Band.  Please do not engage in radio communications with him for it is illegal to do so" 

improvements or variations on the above suggestion are encouraged  ;)


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K7KBN on August 19, 2012, 08:37:03 AM
And send it in CW, which would be legal....


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on August 20, 2012, 04:25:27 AM
After reading this thread I like your approach Jonathan and might modify it slightly by transmitting something like: 

"Attention all licensed amateur radio operators, there is an UN-licensed station *illegally* transmitting on this frequency."  Apparently he does not realize he is in danger of facing severe legal consequences for his unlicensed & illegal transmissions, or he mistakenly believes he is operating within the legal confines of the Citizen's Band.  Please do not engage in radio communications with him for it is illegal to do so" 

improvements or variations on the above suggestion are encouraged  ;)

That is perilously close to being a 'broadcast', that is a transmission to nobody in particular but to everyone on the frequency, which is also breaking the regulations.  Better you call one of your friends on that frequency, even though he may not be there--or on the air--at all, and say that the bootlegger is interfering and to go to your alternate frequency.  That wouldn't be a broadcast as such.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N9KX on August 20, 2012, 04:30:55 PM
That is perilously close to being a 'broadcast', that is a transmission to nobody in particular but to everyone on the frequency, which is also breaking the regulations.  Better you call one of your friends on that frequency, even though he may not be there--or on the air--at all, and say that the bootlegger is interfering and to go to your alternate frequency.  That wouldn't be a broadcast as such.

i had not considered that a transmission to nobody in particular but to everyone on the frequency is breaking the rules.  Isn't calling CQ the same sort of transmission?


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K1CJS on August 21, 2012, 05:03:50 AM
Now we're splitting hairs.  Calling CQ is asking for a contact, permissible under the FCC regs.  A broadcast concerning a bootlegger is not asking for a contact, it's just talking, and that is specifically addressed under the regs as well--as NOT permissible.

Granted, these days you've almost got to be a lawyer to really be able to discern what the ambiguous regulations mean, but as long as you follow them to the best of your ability--that is, as you see the meaning--you should be OK.


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N9KX on August 21, 2012, 03:20:32 PM
do the regulations actually mention calling CQ?  can someone please post the pertinent regulation(s)? 


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N4CR on August 21, 2012, 03:43:47 PM
You could, however, broadcast ham relevant news. Such as broadcasting the latest ARRL News Line. That is specifically covered by FCC rules as allowed.

It seems almost poetic justice, doesn't it?


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: K7KBN on August 21, 2012, 04:02:03 PM
You could, however, broadcast ham relevant news. Such as broadcasting the latest ARRL News Line. That is specifically covered by FCC rules as allowed.

It seems almost poetic justice, doesn't it?

Back 50 and more years ago, there were OBS's (Official Bulletin Stations) whose function was to do exactly that.  I was one, in Las Vegas, from 1960-1962.  Whenever something that affected amateur radio was happening, ARRL HQ would send the OBS's a card - via the US Post Office! - with the information, which we would transmit in our specific localities.  The cards NEVER came by air mail, which was extra postage.  Transit time from the east coast to Vegas averaged about a week.  "Getcha up-to-the-month League news right here at K7KBN!"  Well, I suppose I COULD have said that.... ;D


Title: RE: CB on 10m What to do?
Post by: N9KX on August 21, 2012, 06:04:55 PM
You could, however, broadcast ham relevant news. Such as broadcasting the latest ARRL News Line. That is specifically covered by FCC rules as allowed.

It seems almost poetic justice, doesn't it?

so wouldn't my suggested announcement to all licensed hams that there is an unlicensed person illegally operating on frequency be legal since it is ham-relevant news?  ;)