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eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: AD7XN on October 03, 2012, 09:17:04 AM



Title: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 03, 2012, 09:17:04 AM
Hi everyone--I am sure that this has been discussed a million times, but I have hit the 15 WPM wall.  I got to 15/15 with 90's in my QSO training, when all of a sudden I cannot get half way through it without my brain flat not reconizing a lot of the characters.
I am doing word training at 25/18, and do well with that (up to 18 words ) at present.  It seemed to have started when I got into the word training phase. I am sending at 25/11 and was getting 90's in that, and that declined as well.
I am using three CW programs-one for the QSO's, one for sending, and one for word copy.

Ok I know I need to get on the air or at least the internet, BUT the military  school trains to 30 WPM before they let them go on the job, so why can't it be done that way ?

Matt AD7XN


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: N5XM on October 03, 2012, 09:30:57 AM
You sound like the kind of overachiever bulldog I am.  I would suggest you take two or three days off, relax and get out in the fresh air a bit.  In a way, CW is like golf in that you need to be finely focused but still relaxed.  You will make it past this!


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 03, 2012, 10:30:15 AM
In learning the code you can and have to start with individual characters.
You can listen and copy in your head, or writing them, or typing them out.

In amateur radio best thing to do is go over as fast as you can to words copy by head and writing, equally working up. While writing out try to understand what is sent.

That is because that is the way you are going to use the code.

When you start late with words, you will have a fall back. When you are proficient with words and you go back  to codegroups you also will have a fall back. Even in your word speed, due to kind of rewiring process of your brain, that yield a temporary loss of processing speed.

Probably due to the fact of the working of your brains.

Everything is difficult to measure, due to pretty strong daily fluctuations in the obtained proficiency.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 03, 2012, 05:51:40 PM
Matt: 
Quote
Ok I know I need to get on the air or at least the internet, BUT the military  school trains to 30 WPM before they let them go on the job, so why can't it be done that way ?

It CAN be done that way (the military way) but you wouldn't like it even if you had the time!  Believe me.

The military training was 8 hours a day, 5 1/2 days a week; 10 minute smoke break per hour and 1 hour break for lunch. 

The best way to get over these 'humps' is to go to the next level and get what you can and stay there for a few days.  Then come back to your comfort level.  Doing this will help you break out.

Usually, for some reason or another, 13 and 18wpm are what was considered normal 'humps' that created the most problems for people learning code.  It might be the lack of rhythm that these speeds have ..... I don't know.  When we ran into these 'humps' the way we broke it was as I described.  Good luck......

.......and one more thing.... since you're not taking your code out on the job, learn to enjoy the learning experience.  Take your time.  Since you know the code, get on the air. That is the single one thing that will increase your speed.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 04, 2012, 06:22:00 PM
Being relaxed is important.

At basic Morse code training at "Splinter City" (aka: "Ditty-City") Ft. Devens, when a student was very close to graduating his basic Morse code, but hit a mental block at final testing time, it was often seen as a simple case of 'nerves'. The time was probably running out, and the student was probably already qualified, but too wound-up, worried about failure to relax and simply DO what he was conditioned to do. The training sergeant would generally have one semi-private method left:

>:(   "Go to lunch, have TWO beers - not one, not three - TWO!  Then come back here and just copy the code, like it's any other day."

 :'(   "But Sergeant, I don't LIKE beer!"

 >:(  "Listen to me.  Decide NOW whether you want to pass this course or fail & be drummed out of this organization then sent to clean grease traps in Shemya, Alaska for the rest of your enlistment. TWO BEERS - It WORKS - MOVE!"

I saw it work more than once.  Relax, have a little fun learning the Morse code and it WILL flow.



73 de RadioRay ..._ ._


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.".    ~Ben Franklin
>>> Which makes FAR more sense than anything those politicians in Washington spout... <<<


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 04, 2012, 09:45:35 PM
Ray:  When did you go to Devens?  I was there in '54.

Al


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 05, 2012, 10:25:56 AM
'74  - Then over to Berlin.

..._ ._

Ray


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: N2EY on October 05, 2012, 10:34:36 AM
You need to do something different. Get on the air and make some QSOs.

It's really that simple.

CW SS is the first weekend of November. You can get a real workout then. Get ready and go for it.


73 de Jim, N2EY


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 05, 2012, 06:52:21 PM
Thanks everyone, and I will try going up to 18 for a few days and not sneak back to 15 to see how I am doing, until the two days are up.  I have been doing that i.e. going up and down, but in one session.  I have the internet QSO program, but need to bite the bullet and get on it !!

I am interested to know, did any of the troops in the Army go berserk trying to do CW, and decided that cleaning latrines and grease traps didn't sound that bad after all ?  Some times I think I am !!

Matt
AD7XN   


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 05, 2012, 09:53:02 PM
Matt:  Actually, we had one guy hauled out of an adjoining company barracks one evening kicking and screaming by 3 MPs.  We never saw him again.  The guys in that barracks said he just flipped and started screaming that he couldn't take it anymore.  I always suspected the guy wasn't wired up right to start with.

We had several simply fail to make the speeds or decided on their own that this wasn't the job for them and applied for a transfer.

But, for the most part, it all went pretty well. 


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 06, 2012, 03:17:18 AM
'74  - Then over to Berlin.

..._ ._

Ray

Ray,

I order to obtain an estimate of learning the code I have a few questions, hoping you will answer:

1. How many hours were spent totally in the course, receiving code
2. How many hours were totally spent sending the code
3. What were the minimum pass terms ( speed allowed errors, sending and receiving)

Bob


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AG on October 06, 2012, 07:57:42 AM
I remember studying code for my Extra way back in the 70s.  I really think the FCC chose 13 WPM because it was simply the worst place to copy code.  I had more trouble passing my Advanced CW test than I did the Extra.  I think the transition between characters and words is somewhere between 13 and 15 wpm.  I would struggle with 13.  But 16 was my favorite speed.

It's a brain thing. :-p

73, JP, K8AG


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: KE4ILG on October 07, 2012, 06:53:33 AM
I have to second what Jim N2EY suggested.  For me the key was enjoying the "practice" by getting on the air and talking with someone.  N0 matter what speed you currently operate there are others willing to work you.  The obsession to increase speed is common but the most impressive operators I have known were able to work comfortably at a wide range of speeds. 

Back when we had the Novice bands the experienced ops would give us newbees the experience we needed to pass the general exam.  There are many  ops who will gladly slow down to work you if you send well.  I hope you are spending as much time practicing your sending.  73 Mike KE4ILG


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 07, 2012, 07:10:04 AM
--- Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this fellow's post ---

Hi Bob,

About your questions, that was a VERY long time ago, so many things I simply cannot remember any longer, but let's try:

This was the basic Morse code selection course that a soldier had to pass to be accepted for additional training become a Morse intercept operator (basic level), not as a radioman. All totaled for this and the add-on training for intercept and other things, like in how to actually USE Morse, radio and our specilized aspects lasted one year.  Then specialized training once I arrived at my asignment.

1. How many hours were spent totally in the course, receiving code
>>> I think that the time limit was 16 weeks, 8 - 12 hours per day, 6 days per week.  If a soldier could not pass 18 GPM cipher in that time, he was sent to some other place with the Army. However, if a student was doing well, we were called "A.O.G." ("Ahead of the Game") and might have only 8 hour days 5 day weeks and the occasional 4 day week with a three day pass! I was fortunate because I was already a ham before I joined the Army and so I went from zero to 15 GPM my first day. I had a lot of three day weekends! However, I could not type, so I had to learn to copy code on a 'mill' (telegrapher's typewriter). 'Two Finger' typing was not allowed...  This was only the Basic Morse Code selection course.  The real training came later.


2. How many hours were totally spent sending the code
Usually, intercept operators had little or no training in sending at all.  If we were selected for special training, we would receive instruction in sending long after the basic Morse code training was completed.  I was one of those selected.  Most of the training -really- was in message generation , formatting and handling. By then, an operator had heard thousands of hours of code, so naturally would at least know what it sounded like - which is a good start.  So, a little coaching went a long way. The how-to-send training was basically skipped for me, so I don't know about some of the other guys.

3. What were the minimum pass terms ( speed allowed errors, sending and receiving)
>>> For the BASIC Morse code, a student had to be able to copy 18 cipher groups per minute all day long - at a minimum- to be allowed to go to intercept operator training. This was only the basic course and was part of the selection process to determine whether the soldier would be allowed further training. I do not remember the percentage of error allowed, but it was very, very low, they we needed 'practially' perfection. Even former RTO's (Radio Telegraph Operators) were sometimes irritated at the 'nit-picking' of their copy, but do understand, that we were tying to get perfect copy for cryptanalysis. EVERY GARBLE multiplied the problems in trying to analyze what was sent. For sending cipher traffic (in my case) our speed range was purposly limited to 18-25 GPM cipher text - I only ever used a hand (knee) key.  I never used a bug or autokey of any kind so that copy would be as easy as possible with paper & pencil systems.  'Speed Through Accuracy!'  You know how that works.  Any messages my guys would send were usually very short. Sending required 50 groups of perfect cipher text, but we had to do that continuously, not just once.

The Bad News: Some poor guys were assigned to places with languages that had extended Morse alphabets. I remember a few of the guys were assigned to a country with a basic alphabet of 46 (48?) Morse letters!   They were practically crying when they learned that an entirely NEW and different Morse school awaited them to learn the 'second half' of the new Morse alphabet.    :'(  :'(  :'(    Most Asian languages had their own, unique Morse systems. I wanted to go to Asia - naturally The Army knew that and sent me to Berlin...  that seems to be how they do business.  That's OK though, I learned a lot about real world politics and still love German coffee, apfelkuchen or kassekuchen and etc.  I'd trade almost anything for a real German konditorei instead of the swill we have as confections here in the U.S.

?? Why is it that a nation that put men on the moon, still cannot make a decent cheese cake??    :D

Speed was relative & was always matched to the targets you were assigned to copy.  We didn't really time them or even really consider what actual speeds they sent at. New guys arrived to copy the slower (or worst) , least important skeds while the more experienced guys would move up to faster, more complex (and more fun) cases. I do remember some targets who were using bugs for looooooooong mesages and we put onto paper, while thinking nothing about it. We did not think about speed - which probably helped. Frankly, we did not think about much of anything, because it was conditioned copy: you hear it and you hit the key.  There is a story there, but I'll drop it for now.  Suffice it to say, that I patched into one WAC's (girl's) headphones and sent her some things that she reflexively copied onto her traffic log, thinking it was geniune - until I sent the last part, with her name in it...     :o

--- That was a very long time ago ---

The last time that I did a speed run of mixed letter/number cipher traffic (All Roman letters) was for a job in the early 1980's. The guy with the stop watch started me in the high teens   ;D   //Ywan!// I had one ear phone cocked forward & the other behind my head, drinking a Coke, copying with one hand (alternating) while we talked.  //OC:  Yeah, I was showing off - it was just too slow to NOT have some fun...// He stopped me and and asked what I had done for a living before - - - ha ha .  He decided to make me sweat and cranked it up in stages. Finally, as far as he could tell looking over my shoulder, I had zero errors at (40 or 45 GPM - I can't remember) after 5 lines of code (10 groups per line, 50 groups).   NOW   I was absolutely using both hands, no Cokes and both ears involved, but I was getting it. I never saw my actual score, but he & I spent the rest of my "test day" talking, drinking Cokes and getting snacks from the lunch room...   So, I guess it went pretty well.

I'm too many years down the road now for putting high speed onto paper, but I 'play' with G4FON software and copy to keyboard 35 words per minute cleartext pretty well for a few minutes at a time.  Listening is easy though.  Like you & I discussed before,  I copy in my head most of the time and I haven't done a speed test, but listening to 40+ in cleartext is not actually difficult, though about 50WPM I loose the ability to hear a tone and only hear clicks, so I loose most copy - I do not know why.  These days, I still cannot send as fast as I can copy. As you know from some of our previous discussion on other pages, I love sending with a bug, but when try faster than about 35 WPM I'm pressing too hard for fun. 25 - 30 with the bug is just a lot of fun, but not taxing. I cannot match my copy speed on bug or paddles, which is a real shame, but I hate to send poor code.

The question came-up about anyone loosing their minds in code training?   Oooooooh yes.  I remember windows broken out from someone going nuts and throwing a 'mill' (telegrapher's typewriter') out the window, guys going AWOL (in our case desertion), those who would just show all kinds of phychologicial problems from the constant noise, pressure and etc.  Some guys just stood-up and walked out - never seen again. Remember, if you failed, you were usually sent to the worst assignments in the Army, as a demonstration to others. At least that's what we were told.  Very few guys flamed-out when they hit their field asignment, by then, it was rare. Half the purpose of the training was the make us crack before we were on duty in some far flung part of the world - where it really mattered.  Besides, there were all those grease traps to clean - and no volunteers!  


Time for a nice cup'a tea and to work on a QRP rig.



73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 07, 2012, 07:14:15 AM
Hey Matt -

The other fellows are quite right.  What REALLY makes it all work for you, will be conversations in Morse.  Starting with the simple RST, QTH, NAME in slow, accurate Morse and building from there.  Sign-off before you've had enough. Then it all begins to become really interesting, more enjoyable (with maybe a tiny bit of pressure...) and that's where the next level of progress will come from.  The main thing:  have fun!  It's much easier to become at something that you enjoy.


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 08, 2012, 08:25:10 AM
--- Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this fellow's post ---


W7ASA ..._ ._

Mni tks for ur extensive reply.

Don't see it as a topic highjack, it is important to know for starters that it takes time to reach 30 wpm which topic starter has as indicated goal.

The speed he has attained is very good usable on the ham bands, I think his speed is the average speed used, because it is a relaxed straight key speed.

Small percentage , I estimate  less then 5% of hams using CW is able to conversate at 30 wpm. You indicate the huge number of hours involved, as far as I know former civilian examinations required 25 wpm first class, and second class 20 wpm. I suppose the second class was the second goal of the course attendants, when 25 wpm was not reachable within the timespan of the course. It took a few years, not only code, but hours of code each day.

Everybody will finally meet a wall, not to be passed. DJ1YFK world champion call sign copy made a small progress in a short timespan with higher scores then usable. Other guys exercising daily for years are not gaining any progress at lower but still very high speeds. So the personal final walls are at different speeds. It is hard to measure.

General rules seems to be:
1. Younger learns much faster
2. Copy above the comfort zone when you want to increase speed, go back and it is easier.
3. Exercise dedicated, callsigns OR plain text;  copy by head, writing OR a mill
4. There is an amazing amount of variation in daily results.

Bob


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 08, 2012, 05:55:21 PM
Ray, you gave me a large laugh about where the Army sent you.  I joined the Air Force in 1957, and was sent to electronics school.
When we were about to finish, of course, they gave us three choices of  countries-that had our base's where we would like to be stationed at. Well I had decided that I wanted to go to OCS and pilot training, and therefore I wanted a place that afforded no opportunity whatever to go off base and have fun.  The object being to take the AF OCS corrospondance course to give me a leg up on getting into officer training.  so I picked as #1-Thully Greenland, #2 Alaska, and since I figured that first two were shoe ins, I picked England as #3.  I mean who volunteer's for #1 and 2-right !!!   Yeah you know what they did - Harlingen AFB in deep South Texas 50 miles from the Mexican border, and Matamores,Mexco. Oh yeah-no good times there right ??
Well I took the OCS course anyway, but I think I stayed on base enough to get two chapters completed. Nuff said !!

Matt


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K7KBN on October 09, 2012, 09:41:00 AM
I worked and got a QSL from KG1AF in Thule, back in the early 1960s.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W1YB on October 11, 2012, 07:14:11 AM
Well, since "Radio Ray" and I spent some time together I am forced comment.  ;D

BTW, Ray, what ever happened to that old Collins you had in your quarters in the barracks?  ;)

I was a linguist in Berlin, but in the prior "bad old days" I was also a 31E Field Radio Operator/Repairer. (At least that's what my 214 claims was my original secondary MOS.) We were trained to send and receive, and if memory serves, 18 was the requirement. I held a ham license earlier in life so I did not find it that difficult to gain the required level of proficiency.

In retrospect, I have come to believe that the best way to learn any language (English/Russian/music/code) is the way human beings have always learned them. We repeat what we hear. We do not try and write it down until we have command of the spoken word. This first came to my attention when I studied Russian. Those who spent the most time in active use of the language excelled in its use.

I learned English, guitar, Morse and Russian by attempting to recreate what I heard. So I believe that sending the characters is important. Actively performing a function is important no matter what function is being learned.

Just MH $00.02 worth

YMMV

Good luck in your pursuit of Morse proficiency.

And finally

All the best, Ray. Or should I say "Vše, co nejlépe"


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 11, 2012, 09:08:06 AM
All things considered YB, you could also say, "3 dits, 4 dits, 2 dits dah.  ASA, rah, rah, rah!


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 11, 2012, 02:08:29 PM
ToVAAAAAAAAArish  Abelsov!   Kak pozhivayete?
//best that I can do with a Roman keyboard.//

Good to hear from you!  Yup  Morse is just another language. Truth be told, I WAS a lousy excuse for an 'Army Man', but fortunately, as a pretty good operator I appeared to be too valuable to be tossed into military prison for my caustic 'FTA-Ray' attitude.  ha ha!  Lingy, ditty or 98C, we all had ONE common enemy - The Army and I'm pretty sure the communists were high on that list as well.    ;D

Let's get on the air sometime and pound some code!  We can use a few ._._  and ---- 's thrown in there just for old time's sake.

---

I have a funny story for you (off-line) about catching a "D" using "D" CW procedures on the ham bands once...

---

The Collins did make it back to the World with me and I used it for my first CONUS station, but I had a money & space problem when I went to language school and sold it - - - I still wear a black arm band...  :'(

The Berlin, low band VHF clandestine station that I ran with Larry 'went away' after one caper when we dispatched MP's to the O'club to remove a dog carcass.  After that ,they seemed suspicious about some of the calls we sent, pretending to be dispatch via that radio and we figured that it was only a matter of time before we got busted.  They would have made it stick...

The home made mortar that Schutte, Larry & I made was rapidly disassembled and the parts scattered after Top Ganong got a hold of our butts for firing it at the cook and his girl friend.  I was SO proud when the improvised incindiary charge functioned as designed.  NEVER give flamables to Operators & besides, that tree should not have been there anyway.    :P

As far as I know, the clandestine HF station from my room was noticed, but not busted like the one at Devens during the last bit of time before outprocessing.  At Devens, some nug ratted me out for working the lock on the roof access while I was retrieving my antenna. The First Shirt was NOT impressed - go figger. I don't see why not. It was a clean op up to that point.  The C.O. was VERY impressed that I ran a clandestine ham station for a year undetected at an intelligence training base!  He was a good officer.  I hope that he married well and often.


73 a djekui Pane' de FTA-Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Ps.  Man what I wouldn't do for some Berliner kurry-wurst or schashlick about now!


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K7KBN on October 11, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
The title of the thread is "The Wall" ... I suppose the Berlin Wall is acceptable!

We had a couple CTIs (Communications Technician - Interpreter) on the Kitty Hawk.  It was a common occurrence for the SecGru OInC to come into radio central and request my services.  Turned out I could copy Japanese Morse (wabun) better than either of the "pros".  ;D


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 12, 2012, 07:39:39 AM
CT's, 058, 05H, 05D and etc.  - Isn't it amazing how many of us from the old business are still roaming the bands?  I bumped into a fellow at a local ham club meeting and he is a former Navy side of the old group during the Cold War years and now he's more of a DX'er,  still twisting the knob to see who is out there. There really IS something about the magic of radio, once bitten - always smitten.


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 12, 2012, 08:41:12 AM
Oh ! To be young again, and be able to fall down a set of stairs, and get right up and carry on like you were made of rubber.

I enjoy sending CW with the computer course I have, at 25 CPM @ 12 WPM average, and get in the 90% bracket but receiving is a bear at 15/15 true. Another problem is-I can send as stated above using the text on the screen, but sending a QSO to the computer off the top of my head is much slower.  I can't think as fast as I want to send, unless I am reading the text off the screen. I think it is because I can see the letter's ahead of time on the screen, while originating a QSO, my 75 year old brain can't keep up. I refer you to the first sentence -to be young again !!

Hey-I don't mind reminiscing, who's next ?

Matt


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 12, 2012, 09:38:09 AM
As I copy CW on my computer keyboard, I get very depressed longing for the sound and feel of a mill........

Ray, one of the "top Sgts" who founded our post back in the very early 50s.....a career solder, combat veteran.... made the statement that throughout his years working with our type, "he never met a more intelligent and dedicated bunch of men in his life.....but there wasn't one soldier in the bunch!"

Al - K8AXW


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AC on October 13, 2012, 01:27:38 PM
It seems that learning the code and copying at higher speeds has been made more complicated today that it needs to be.  I learned before there were any "methods" and didn't have the advantage of military code training.  The technique used by my friends and I back in the 1950s and early 1960s is still available today, and for free.  We listened to W1AW code practice every night it was on and after drilling at or just above the speed we could copy, we continued to listen as the code speed increased far beyond what we could copy.  When you do that for a while, you begin to recognize words or letter combinations even though you may not be able to copy individual letters at that speed.  After considerable listening at the higher speeds and maybe copying only a very little bit of what was sent, when you go back to the target speed (13 or 20 WPM?) it sounds much slower than it did before and copy is much easier.  You can do the same thing most days by listening to the high speed guys on 40 CW whom I assume are using keyboards to send CW.  While the speeds are up in the 50 wpm plus range, when I listen for an extended period I begin to pick up words and phrases that I couldn't decode when I first started listening.  Such speeds far exceed my capability to write down what was copied of course, so the copy is all in the head.  I've always admired the guys who had military training and could copy 30 wpm on a MANUAL typewriter without error.

73, Floyd - K8AC


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 15, 2012, 02:30:30 AM
Here you ex military radio guys, you have a link that may be interesting for you:
http://www.rsars.org.uk/ELIBRARY/docsoffsks.htm


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: KE6EE on October 15, 2012, 09:14:24 PM
It seems that learning the code and copying at higher speeds has been made more complicated today that it needs to be  ...we listened to W1AW code practice every night it was on and after drilling at or just above the speed we could copy, we continued to listen as the code speed increased far beyond what we could copy...You can do the same thing most days by listening to the high speed guys on 40 CW whom I assume are using keyboards to send CW. 
73, Floyd - K8AC

I think Floyd is right on. It's just that simple.

Mike


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on October 16, 2012, 09:06:42 AM
Floyd is indeed right and the reason it's more complicated these days is because we are presently living in the NOW era.  Most people want everything NOW and spend more time searching for the EASY way than they would by simply DOING it!  IMHO, understand.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: M0LEP on October 16, 2012, 11:12:14 AM
There are no easy ways. Trouble is, these days there's not much guidance on the ground either.

Time was, if you wanted to learn to use Morse, you'd have no trouble finding someone at a local club (or wherever) ready to teach you, and a test to aim for that would help you prove you'd learned the skill.

These days, it's much harder to find the teachers, so you go looking on the Net (because that's the way things are now) and find resources like W1AW, LCWO.net, JLMC, G4FON and so on, and you try to learn using them, but they all have one huge draw-back; they're tools, not teachers. They may help tell you when you're doing something right, but they'll never spot what you're doing wrong. Nor, to be honest, will any of the pundits here help much, if all they do is tell folks what to do.

Teaching is a two-way process, and it's probably impossible to teach someone Morse code without teacher and pupil being in the same room, one way or another.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 16, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
Bob -  Thanks for the link! I am enoying roaming their site and library.

-...-

"...they're tools, not teachers..." There is a lot of truth in that.  A person can be self taught in many things, but it's usually easier and more likely to meet with success when you have someone who is already competent in ham radio communication in Morse and who is a good teacher to help you.  While it IS true that there are more self help tools available now than ever before AND that many of the impediments such as the many bad methods have largely been filtered-out, such as dit/dah counting and visual charts // both quite destructive in the long run // it can still be a difficulty for someone who is not already a ham to find a ham to learn from even if they teach themselves to copy the Morse code.  It's not impossible - we've all done it to some extent, but it's helpful to have someone who can give you an answer to some of our ham radio ways which may not always be in the course material.

Another factor is that while a person might learn the code quite well by themselves, learning to actually communicate with it is another learning process. Besides the technical aspects of how to zero-beat the other guy's signal, how to use filters & etc. there is also the factor that we use so many abbreviations, pro-signs and standarized exchanges like RST, QTH, & etc. that it takes a while for a new person to convert all those strange letter/number combinations into the THOUGHTS that the radio operator on the other end is actually sending their way! Even if copied onto paper prefectly, it is still a mystifying shorthand that we often use:

RR OM ES FB ON UR RIG UR RST 579 LIL QSB BUT FB CPI BT OP JIRI ES QTH NR USTI HW ?  W7ASA DE OK1VB KN


Now to any 'normal' human being this jumble of letters, even if copied PERFECTLY really means little or nothing until you learn to speak ham-dialect  ;^)    To a ham, we not only translate these sparse letters into the whole words/phrases, but also tanslate them mentally into entire block of meaning, which are often far from obvious.


FB= fine business (1920's slang) = that's good
OM = Old Man (1920's slang) = a friendly term for a fellow ham radio operator  
ES = and , (derived likely from French)
OP JIRI = My name ir Jiri.
QTH NR USTI = I live near Usti Nad Labem in the Czech Republic.
HW? = So, how did you read me during this last exchange?


A teacher/Elmer would really be helpful is solving these mini-cryptograms. We ARE , after all, using a cipher system (Morse) to speak in code (Our Q-signals and prosigns).  No wonder it's helpful to have a teacher.



                                                            73 de Ray
                                                            W7ASA ..._ ._



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 16, 2012, 02:18:24 PM
Ray:



 A person can be self taught in many things

Sure, in the early 50 there was a booklet here Seinen en Opnemen, which means giving and receiving Morse code. It handles a course counting with transmitting, method  eish5, a tone-sounder and building a key, the normal abbreviations and Q code, an Xtal transmitter with a 6L6 and a 80 m transmitter with an ECO and 807 in the final. That was a very often used guide to beginning hams.

Quote
, but it's usually easier and more likely to meet with success when you have someone who is already competent in ham radio communication in Morse and who is a good teacher to help you.
You need appointments, time in transit etc, severe waste of time and hence objective.


Quote
RR OM ES FB ON UR RIG UR RST 579 LIL QSB BUT FB CPI BT OP JIRI ES QTH NR USTI HW ?  W7ASA DE OK1VB KN[/b]
I should not understand LIL. Never heard before afaik. hi


Quote
OM = Old Man (1920's slang) = a friendly term for a fellow ham radio operator

I wrote in an email OM to a fellow ham, he was annoyed by that, or insulted. Kind of novice that coordinates a novice course.
Quote

ES = and , (derived likely from French)
must have another origin, cuz french for 'and' is 'et'.

 73 Bob                                                          


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 16, 2012, 05:41:06 PM
RR OM ES FB ON UR RIG UR RST 579 LIL QSB BUT FB CPI BT OP JIRI ES QTH NR USTI HW ?  W7ASA DE OK1VB KN[/b]

"I should not understand LIL. Never heard before afaik. hi"


Oooops, My fault. That one is not really international:  'lil' sounds like the word: 'little', to we Americans who tend to use a softer pronounciation for our  "T"s  and some other hard consonants. It varies from region to region. We even had a comic strip named  " Lil' Abner " about a hill-billy who meant well, but often caused more harm than good. 


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 17, 2012, 05:45:52 PM
Abner did good with Daisy Mae !!!

Ok as I said I would do in a post here, I went up from 15/15 to 18/18 for three days.  After that I came back to 15/15 and did the Wall a lot of harm.  Next day the Wall fell on me, and so I took a few days off.  Yesterday I did 15 again, and found a gate in the wall and walked on through-scrapped the wall a little but felt pretty good.
Today the Wall must have been asleep, as I was very comfortable with 15, and went to 18. This time the Wall opened one of it's eyes and went back to sleep i.e. 18 was almost as good as 15.  Well the *&^T%@ thing was asleep so climbed over it and danged, it let me be happy with 20/20.  Not as good as 15 and 18 mind you, but I actually was able to write half of it.

Matt
AD7XN


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on October 17, 2012, 10:49:53 PM
"...it let me be happy with 20/20..."


 ;D  ;D  ;D WooHoo!  Grind away at it Matt & have fun with it.  Like most things in life, endurance usualy wins the day.



>Ray


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD7XN on October 18, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Speaking of Ham  shorthand,  texting over cell phones is ridiculous. Check out this texting shorthand site. It took 25 pages to print out, and if you don't know it, your kids could be texting to their friend about you or sex, murder, anything and you would have no idea, even if you were looking over their shoulder !!  All without a word from the English dictionary.
http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php

Matt


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on October 18, 2012, 11:05:36 AM
Speaking of Ham  shorthand,  texting over cell phones is ridiculous. Check out this texting shorthand site. It took 25 pages to print out, and if you don't know it, your kids could be texting to their friend about you or sex, murder, anything and you would have no idea, even if you were looking over their shoulder !!  All without a word from the English dictionary.
http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php

Matt

Kids are too stupid on the average to finish a good school, but they have no problem to remember 25 pages random rubbish.

That is motivating in order to be a member of the desired gang.

When I looked at that URL my computer went tilt. Hopefully I am not infected with something rotten.
14 is empty, void, so 14 is the average mental state of the user.   I miss 1312 there was a law suit by justice in this country, because it was offensive for policemen. It were the  sequence numbers (A=1 Z=26)of characters ACAB and that means all cobs are bastards (Mind you this country has Dutch as formal language) The judge decided because it was not well general know, it was not offensive but due to the press reports it is now very well generally known (Even I know it) so wearing a T-shirt with 1312 printed  is now punishable.

Even so 88 is not "love and kisses" No it is HH and hence offensive because HH is Heil Hitler.

Matt, it is a matt world

Bob


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: HA7AP on November 19, 2012, 08:50:30 AM
RR OM ES FB ON UR RIG UR RST 579 LIL QSB BUT FB CPI BT OP JIRI ES QTH NR USTI HW ?  W7ASA DE OK1VB KN[/b]

"I should not understand LIL. Never heard before afaik. hi"


Oooops, My fault. That one is not really international:  'lil' sounds like the word: 'little', to we Americans who tend to use a softer pronounciation for our  "T"s  and some other hard consonants. It varies from region to region. We even had a comic strip named  " Lil' Abner " about a hill-billy who meant well, but often caused more harm than good. 


73 de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._

Don't worry Ray! Bob knows exactly what lil means. He speaks perfect English. Matter of fact, he just explained to me how he learned and how he likes to copy cw. The way he likes to copy and send cw is the way only American guys does.
Eu guys never have a problem copy hand sending cw.

BTW the word lil mostly used by folks in Oakland.

73 Imi HA7AP


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: N2EY on November 19, 2012, 12:09:54 PM

ES = and , (derived likely from French)

No, it's NOT from French. It's from "American" Morse (used on the wires on this side of the pond).

In American Morse, the ampersand ( & ) is dit dididit. The space between the first dit and the other three is shorter than would be used between letters but longer than would normally be used between dits and dahs. ("American" Morse has several of these odd characters; International has none of them). In similar fashion, "VA" meaning "end of work" is derived from "30".

And of course there's the expression "take five"...which does NOT mean "five minute break" and predates Dave Brubek by many years.

73 de Jim, N2EY



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on November 20, 2012, 07:32:16 AM

Don't worry Ray! Bob knows exactly what lil means. He speaks perfect English. Matter of fact, he just explained to me how he learned and how he likes to copy cw. The way he likes to copy and send cw is the way only American guys does.
Eu guys never have a problem copy hand sending cw.

73 Imi HA7AP

Hi Imi,

Thanks a lot for your msg.

As a matter of fact I valued people from HA high, because in 1956 there were a large number of political HA-refugees accepted in this pretty overpopulated Eu-country with prefix PAAA thru PIZZ.

Without known exception by me, they accepted simple work for living to start with, and grew out fast to leading workers in industry and non profit organisations. They got the opportunity and they took it.

So that may clarify my admiration for HA people. And added to your demonstrated high level of proficiency in Morse code you showed, my idea was  confirmed.

However your last quoted message is experienced here as sarcastic, and I am right now afraid all the valued HA people that my country  and the other countries in Western EU accepted and praised ourself lucky with those qualified hard working people, learning fast our, as such international qualified,  difficult language  were in fact a huge brain drain of HA.

1. I did write nowhere I enjoyed copying Morse code. Perhaps a sample of the remaining people in HA is able to comprehend that stopping something you started with a well defined goal in your mind, is a waste of time you invested already.

2. When you make a statement over EU hams able to copy any handsent code (at any speed) and any distortion, you disqualify yourself.

3. You claim to know what I exactly know.

I know nothing about you, I feel perfectly happy with that, and I hope sincerely for you that your Morse code proficiency is not your only outstanding qualification in life.
Bob


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: PA0BLAH on November 20, 2012, 07:53:25 AM
It's from "American" Morse (used on the wires on this side of the pond).

In American Morse, the ampersand ( & ) is dit dididit. The space between the first dit and the other three is shorter than would be used between letters but longer than would normally be used between dits and dahs. ("American" Morse has several of these odd characters; International has none of them). In similar fashion, "VA" meaning "end of work" is derived from "30".


Interesting info Jim, tks. "de" is I suppose French origin, of the tx station and meaning "of" so the sender of the msg signing his ID.

_de_ Bob




Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: N2EY on November 20, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
Interesting info Jim, tks. "de" is I suppose French origin, of the tx station and meaning "of" so the sender of the msg signing his ID.

Yes, "DE" is from the French.

73 de Jim, N2EY


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: W7ASA on November 20, 2012, 05:51:26 PM
ES = and

"In American Morse, the ampersand ( & ) is dit dididit."

Thanks!  That's interesting.  Since I do not know American Morse, I went with what I was told back when I was fist learning Morse (shortly after the Earth's crust cooled... ).


>Ray



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: HA7AP on November 21, 2012, 10:32:27 PM

Don't worry Ray! Bob knows exactly what lil means. He speaks perfect English. Matter of fact, he just explained to me how he learned and how he likes to copy cw. The way he likes to copy and send cw is the way only American guys does.
Eu guys never have a problem copy hand sending cw.

73 Imi HA7AP

Hi Imi,

Thanks a lot for your msg.

As a matter of fact I valued people from HA high, because in 1956 there were a large number of political HA-refugees accepted in this pretty overpopulated Eu-country with prefix PAAA thru PIZZ.

Without known exception by me, they accepted simple work for living to start with, and grew out fast to leading workers in industry and non profit organisations. They got the opportunity and they took it.

So that may clarify my admiration for HA people. And added to your demonstrated high level of proficiency in Morse code you showed, my idea was  confirmed.

However your last quoted message is experienced here as sarcastic, and I am right now afraid all the valued HA people that my country  and the other countries in Western EU accepted and praised ourself lucky with those qualified hard working people, learning fast our, as such international qualified,  difficult language  were in fact a huge brain drain of HA.

1. I did write nowhere I enjoyed copying Morse code. Perhaps a sample of the remaining people in HA is able to comprehend that stopping something you started with a well defined goal in your mind, is a waste of time you invested already.

2. When you make a statement over EU hams able to copy any handsent code (at any speed) and any distortion, you disqualify yourself.

3. You claim to know what I exactly know.

I know nothing about you, I feel perfectly happy with that, and I hope sincerely for you that your Morse code proficiency is not your only outstanding qualification in life.
Bob


Whatever!



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: WD8KNI on November 21, 2012, 11:43:12 PM
About the wall..  Back in the mid 70' s I was stuck around 12, a fellow ham I worked with after some time listening to me bitch about it said he would be over that night,  BTW he taught code in the army..

He opened a book and give me the following directions,  I am going to send at 20 wpm for 5 minutes copy what you can.. I will not stop.
 
when he looked at my mess he created a chart.. he looked at each time I was copying and wrote down the first character I missed.  His conclusion was that I started missing anytime I hit any one of 6 characters.

He then sent 5 letter code groups (20 wpm) consisting of only those characters for the rest of the evening while we drank coffee, perhaps a beer or two. BTW, I did not write anything down, I spoke the character to him as it was sent, he had instant feedback on each character and knew which characters I was still having problems with.

Problem was resolved.. next day solid copy at 20 wpm.

Since that time I have resolved the code problems for others using the same technique.

His theory was simple

if you goal is to learn code at 20 wpm, always listen to each character at 20 wpm. Anyone can slow down, the problem is to instantly recognize each character at that speed.
 
If you don't instantly recognize a character, you will attempt to translate, then miss following characters because you ran out of brain time, so make sure you instantly recognize all characters including punctuation.

If you have time to translate in your head you will. So don't slow down between characters.. just miss the character and go on..  Contrary to Farnsworth thinking..

listen to code without writing, or typing. 

After years to considering his theories, I have come to the following conclusions:

It takes much longer to learn code in speed steps then to just learn it at a speed you can use.

head fluster from not instantaneous knowing a character is most likely 99% of most peoples problem.

I think the same head fluster is found when earning any language..

You only possess conversational language when you instantly know each element without doing any translation in your head

This also seems to agree with the guys that say "Listen to the code"

FWIW.. Regards..  Fred


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on November 22, 2012, 09:02:03 AM
Fred:  One of the advantages of copying 5 letter coded groups is that you copy code..... not anticipate words, which in many cases are incorrect. 

I've found that the brain learning the code and simultaneously trying to anticipate the word which seems to be forming, quite often overloads the brain and you wind up losing both efforts.

It must be understood though, that we all have our problems and ways to do things. 


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: STAYVERTICAL on November 22, 2012, 01:13:55 PM
Fred,

What you said makes a lot of sense.
Back in the day, most people did not fuss as much or agonize over which system gave the best results.
They found a system which worked for most people, then you either achieved proficiency, or you were back to other work.

Part of the problem today, I feel, is that there are just too many experts - all kicking their particular can down the road.

When you remove all the layers and colorful sweet coatings - there is only one way to learn morse - or anything else.
Your brain has to form pathways and allocate a section which is there to decode morse.
Whether you get there by one path or another is mostly a matter of style - the destination is the same.

If you are immersed in some activity, you will pick up expertise in that area - you simply cannot fail to do it if you are alive.
It may be anecdotal or an urban myth, but I recall reading somewhere that the transition from morse being printed on paper tape to ear was accidental.
The guys in the telegraph offices who tended the morse printers eventually learned to recognise the clicks and decode them by ear.
So the paper tape markers were retired and morse operators were born.
This may be untrue, but it makes a nice story - and I am sure there is some semblance of truth in it.

Before the 4 minute mile was broken, it was considered impossible.
Once it was broken, lots of people broke it - and now it is routinely run.
The same was true of a guitarist who learned by himself off the radio.
He played guitar in a way that amazed the professionals - his secret - he did not realize the radio versions were mixed with multiple tracks.
So, not knowing it was impossible - he did it anyway.

We have all heard of autistic savants (rain man type) who can do amazing things in their head.
One thing a lot of these people have in common is an over-riding obsession with a particular interest.
If you thought about one thing just about every waking moment, you would be an expert in that as well.
Supposedly it takes about 5000 hours to become a "genius" at some activity.
Beethoven had an obsessive, somewhat sadistic, father who would force him to play piano all night long.
It is hardly surprising that someone like Beethoven became a genius in music.

So don't worry if you don't have native talent in something - pure persistence can bring you there as well.

73 - Rob


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on November 22, 2012, 06:45:46 PM
Rob:  Well said!!


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: AD6KA on December 16, 2012, 01:59:37 PM
I too was afflicted by the 15/16 WPM "Wall",
but I think it was a matter of nerves, not skill.

Comedian Bill Cosby played football and had
a Track & Field Scholarship at Temple University. One of his Field
events was the High Jump. His "wall" was when the
bar was set at his own physical height. He that said a
little voice came into his head telling him "You KNOW
you can't jump higher than you are tall".

I think maybe I too had such a little voice in my head
about 20 wpm CW, though I wasn't conscious of it.

I took and passed the 13 wpm CW Element and
the General and Advanced written elements on the
same day. (At that karate dojo that used to be above
Jun's Electronics in Culver City, remember that place?)
It was late in the afternoon and not many folks were
left. The VE who gave and scored the 13 wpm test must
have been watching me. He said "You had no problem
with this at all, why don't you take the 20 wpm?".
I was mortified and said "Sorry, I'm just not ready".

His reply was "What have you got to lose?
There's no pressure, you already got what
you came here for."
A very kindly older man, before I could profer
another argument, he put his arm around my shoulder,
guided me to the chair, winked, and said "Relax kid, you've
got this in the bag". I passed that 20 wpm element.
Granted, it was the easy "Fill in the blanks" type
test given at that time, not the much more
difficult FCC Field Office Exams of an earlier era.

But thank goodness for that kind VE who had
confidence in me when I had none.
I wish I had
taken his name.

73, Ken  AD6KA


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: HA7AP on December 24, 2012, 11:44:33 PM
Hi Imi,

Thanks a lot for your msg.

As a matter of fact I valued people from HA high, because in 1956 there were a large number of political HA-refugees accepted in this pretty overpopulated Eu-country with prefix PAAA thru PIZZ.

Without known exception by me, they accepted simple work for living to start with, and grew out fast to leading workers in industry and non profit organisations. They got the opportunity and they took it.

So that may clarify my admiration for HA people. And added to your demonstrated high level of proficiency in Morse code you showed, my idea was  confirmed.

However your last quoted message is experienced here as sarcastic, and I am right now afraid all the valued HA people that my country  and the other countries in Western EU accepted and praised ourself lucky with those qualified hard working people, learning fast our, as such international qualified,  difficult language  were in fact a huge brain drain of HA.

1. I did write nowhere I enjoyed copying Morse code. Perhaps a sample of the remaining people in HA is able to comprehend that stopping something you started with a well defined goal in your mind, is a waste of time you invested already.

2. When you make a statement over EU hams able to copy any handsent code (at any speed) and any distortion, you disqualify yourself.

3. You claim to know what I exactly know.

I know nothing about you, I feel perfectly happy with that, and I hope sincerely for you that your Morse code proficiency is not your only outstanding qualification in life.
Bob

[/quote]

Hi Bob!
I still don't get it!
What exactly CW has anything to do with political refugees or 1956 revolution in Hungary?
I have nothing to do with them nor my parents or grand parents or any of my relatives. Some of You called (HA people) Chickened out and left this beautiful country, that is their problem and not mine.
I wouldn't be so proud of all of them. I feel sorry for some of them, but there is also a lot of war criminals among them. Not to mention those who were beat  innocent people to death while they were police men or army officials in that system. These people are the one's you were so proud of? Real Hungarians were stayed here and rebuilt this country together and tried to survive that dirty communist regime.  Please, don't try to lecture me about our history and my people.

If you felt offended, for that I apologise.

I just realized that I was really sarcastic and some times people just need to remind me of that. I try not to be, but some times it just comes out that way. I really try not to be one.
As I'm getting older I realize that, ego is suspicious at best and vicious at worst!!!!!!
I am no special or better then any other person. I am just an average guy.
BTW I never said that EU guys can copy at any speed. I said EU guys has no problem copy code which is sent by hand.
Americans are focusing on copy clean code sent by keyboard, but EU guys....in the other hand, at least the vast majority of us is just lousy kb typists. That is the reason we don't have problem copy any kind of code, because we send code by hand only.


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on December 25, 2012, 08:34:38 AM
HA7AP: 

Imi:  I found your comments about the HA refugees "chicken out" interesting.  I was in Germany during 1956.  I cannot elaborate but believe me when I tell you that your countrymen that crossed to border to escape the Russians.... weren't "chickens!" 

I was also there when some of your countrymen settled in Germany and became productive citizens.  Matter of fact, I still have Forent bills from one of them.  I found them to be very nice people.  They were easy to like.

I was also in the Atlantic when 3 stinking ships full of your countrymen had to turn back to Germany because of the bad weather.... all trying to escape the hell inflicted on them by the Russians.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread but your comments brought back a lot of memories, memories that I still can't talk about. 



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: HA7AP on December 28, 2012, 08:54:55 AM
HA7AP: 

Imi:  I found your comments about the HA refugees "chicken out" interesting.  I was in Germany during 1956.  I cannot elaborate but believe me when I tell you that your countrymen that crossed to border to escape the Russians.... weren't "chickens!" 

I was also there when some of your countrymen settled in Germany and became productive citizens.  Matter of fact, I still have Forent bills from one of them.  I found them to be very nice people.  They were easy to like.

I was also in the Atlantic when 3 stinking ships full of your countrymen had to turn back to Germany because of the bad weather.... all trying to escape the hell inflicted on them by the Russians.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread but your comments brought back a lot of memories, memories that I still can't talk about. 



Hi Allen, K8AXW!

I know that, there were many excellent people among those refugees. What I said is Not everybody were so precious in that group of refugees.
My grandpa were a soldier and captured by gestapo in the world war II. They wanted to execute him in Austria, but he managed to escaped from them.

The agitators:( Agitators in the 50' were to convince people in a brutal manner to give their land values and all their animals to the state. A one big corporation)  My grandpa lived in a countryside in the year of 1958 and heard that, there was a couple of agitators beating up his farmer neighbour nearly to death.
My grandpa went over and started to question these two army officials, that this is how the state needs to convince people to get in to cooperatives?
This whole thing was about to get people violently in to one huge countrywide corporation.
My grandpa were a big guy, so these two left pretty quick without saying a thing.
A few hours later more army officials came over and said to my grandpa, that he is under arrest for interfering agitators action or so.
He was then taken to Budapest to Ministry of defence, then soon straight to jail.
He were then beaten up very badly and he lost 50kg and served one year for questioning army officials.
That old man never thought about going to an other country, because what happened to him.

What I think, a Country has nothing to do with actual political system.

I've been In Canada and USA and lots of other countries, but my own experience with most of 1956 Hungarian political refugees are very negative.
They are hate Hungary and hate Hungarian people. They are already forgot to speak Hungarian, but still doesn't speak proper English. They are jealous and unhelpful.

Don't get me wrong, I just tell you my own experience about these brilliant refugees of 1956


73 imi HA7AP


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: K8AXW on December 28, 2012, 09:23:37 AM
Imi:  I thank you very much for the interesting information.  Most of this I didn't know.  The Hungarians I met were very nice people and were devastated because they had to leave their home country. 

Although what you say is correct it also must be understood that the results and or condition of Hungary in the 50's was due to Russian control.  There are always those in every country that will act as those in Hungary.  Even in the US!  We are seeing that now, as we speak. 

If you look at any oppressed country you will find those who would rather leave their beloved country than suffer endlessly under tyranny or invasion.

Please understand, I do defer to what is no doubt your insightful viewpoint.



Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: N4GKC on December 31, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
Just try to remember..... "this is a hobby, not a job" 73 Garrett (n4gkc)


Title: RE: The WALL
Post by: KH2G on January 04, 2013, 06:40:39 PM
Put away the training aids and get on with talking to people. You speed will go up as you meet and talk to people.
Don't worry about it. Maybe after a year of ops, give yourself a test and I believe you'll be amazed at your progress.
73
Dick KH2G