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eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: VK3GDM on December 23, 2008, 01:48:11 PM



Title: Abbreviations
Post by: VK3GDM on December 23, 2008, 01:48:11 PM
Has anyone heard 'tre' used in CW QSO before?

I think it means 'there'.
I thought 'dr' was used for 'there', but it seems 'dr' means 'dear'.
I've been calling alot of people 'dear'.. Hi..

These abbreviations seem to throw me. I'm sure I miss quite a few because I don't recognize them, probably discard them and move on to the next word.
Many abbreviations are obvious put some are not.

All part of learning the CW language I suppose.  

Merry Xmas HNY
David


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 23, 2008, 02:03:13 PM
im with you on the one re abbreviations. some are not quite obveous and some are.

re the DR don't worry lots of people use it for example "ok dr david es tnx fer qso" its ok theres nothing strange about it :-)

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0OD on December 23, 2008, 08:57:20 PM
In 50 years I've never heard 'tre' and I certainly never called a ham "dear" which WAS quite popular in Eastern Europe about 20 years ago.  Guess that was a ham version of the corporate world "air kissing" fad. And akin to phone nets where everyone is "my good friend."

Just because you hear it on the air, doesn't mean it's good communication practice. When in doubt, use standard language.



Title: Abbreviations
Post by: W8ZNX on December 24, 2008, 01:18:53 AM
have never heard either used

just for the heck of it checked
the 1936, and 1937 the Radio Handbook *
and
1940, 1954, 1964,  Amateur's Radio Handbook

nope
no DR and no TRE

mind TR was used for " there "
and is listed in some pre war handbooks

mac

* pre war copys of  " the Radio Handbook "
have lots of Q signals that nobody but nobody uses any more
like QRA
what is the name of your station?


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 24, 2008, 01:46:17 AM
Well the europeans are usind DR lots. I simply use it because im new and have gone with what seems to be being said knowing no better..

I also use .-.-.- for period  as apposed to what i hear more commonly ..--..

Why? because this is what i read was correct the second one being (apparently) early american code and the first example being current international or continental code. (which is what is sent on my morse tutor also)

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K7UNZ on December 24, 2008, 04:47:44 AM
Been a CW guy for about 50 years, and "tre" is a new one on me (hi).

The standard for making abbreviations (in English) has been to drop vowels from words, as they are easily restored in your mind.  This is in addition to the "normal" list of abbreviations, some of which have more than one abbreviation for a word.  PLS/PSE for please, TKS/TNX for thanks, etc.  However, when in doubt, spell it out (hi).

Some of us "OF's" still use those Q-signals mentioned previously.  QRA, QSA, QRV, etc., all still have a place in CW.

And PLEASE, don't forget pro-signs!  DE, K, AR, SK, CL, etc. They were developed for a reason!

The current fad seems to be to just do what you want, even if it makes no sense.  I.E.  Sending "CQ CQ K7UNZ K7UNZ"  Means you're calling anyone (CQ) and also K7UNZ, but you never identify your own station (DE -----) or ask for a reply (K).  Duh!  Wonder why you don't get many answers?

OK, off the soap box....no, I'm not perfect either!

73, Jim/k7unz


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 24, 2008, 07:52:59 AM
No you make a valid point jim. Im all for having a way of doing things. This is what keeps it from slipping into no mans land where a free for all commences.

Here in the uk we are seeing many many newcomers who want to do things there way now they have a ticket .

result, no difference between amateur radio and cb especially on the 2 and 70 fm bands..  shame.

so im of the opinion anyone who takes pride in this great hobby of ours shouldn't feel like they are being an old fart or stuck in the dark ages because they feel it is special and shouldn't be allowed to slip into a free for all..

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0OD on December 24, 2008, 06:33:57 PM
"Duh! Wonder why you don't get many answers?"


Contest stations started dropping "DE" and "BK" etc at the dawn of contest memory keyers decades ago. Those stations are ones who WIN contests with thousands of Qs. (have you ever worked WAZ or 2,000 Qs in a weekend?).

Believe me, many diehard contesters have discussed, analyzed and polished to high gloss every molecule of contesting efficiency.

Before the last CQWW CW I stupidly programmed my exchange to end with BK. (K0OD 5NN T4 599 T4 BK). The unnecessary BK was unexpected by the other station who often started transmitting 2-3 seconds early causing me to miss some of his next transmission.

Among top CW contesters (those who make several hundred gorgeous Qs in an hour!) rhythm is important, and unnecessary and unexpected pro-signs break rhythm.

I admit some modern contest practice may be confusing to the newbie. But within seconds anyone can figure out what is meant by "CQ K0OD  CQ K0OD [silence]."

--------------

"DE, K, AR, SK, CL, etc. They were developed for a reason!"


Most are rooted in traffic handling by straight-keyed spark at 15 to 20 wpm on noisy 200 meters. Even 1960s contest stations were sloth-like compared to modern Q rates.  
   




 


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: W7ETA on December 24, 2008, 06:37:06 PM
TKS FER CALL DR OM used to be quite common from EU ops.

Remember, some places think it is Happy Christmas and Merry New Year and that Cricket scores makes sense?!

73
Bob


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 25, 2008, 03:41:10 AM
Mmmmm  i can't recall anyone mentioning contests. A contest is another story where speed and efficiency is probably best. I have heard stations simply send call sign and test that's it, contest operating wasn't the point of the post.

 Nor did i recall anyone saying they didn't get many answers.

If you don't understand cricket scores then thats no problem, just ask any 3 year old British child and im sure they will explain it for you.

but then its not american so there must be something wrong with it.

billy



Title: Abbreviations
Post by: N8UZE on December 25, 2008, 06:52:19 AM
M0JHA

..--.. is the question mark and is never used to replace the period.


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 25, 2008, 07:11:48 AM
exactly yet this is used commonly as a period . It is early american morse code for  period..

.-.-.- is what should be being used as international code. yet i seem to be one of few who i hear anyway using it.

or maybe i simply cant read code..

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: W5ESE on December 25, 2008, 10:01:26 AM
> .-.-.- is what should be being used as international code. yet i
> seem to be one of few who i hear anyway using it.
>
> or maybe i simply cant read code..

No; almost no one uses the period ( .-.-.- ). It's been that way for
a very long time.

In the classic 1956 QST article 'Your Novice Accent - And What To
Do About It', the author mentions the use of punctuation (except
the question mark and the double dash [BT]) as a sure sign of a
 'Novice Accent'.

http://www.geocities.com/scottamcmullen/Accent.pdf

which is still a great article, although of few of the tips are obsolete
now that almost everyone uses a transceiver with a VFO instead of
separates with crystals.

73
Scott
W5ESE


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 25, 2008, 12:02:34 PM
this is confusing stuff for newcomers. its like trying to learn a new language with many people from the same country telling you how it should be done, all differently.

is there a site or article thats up to date and correct and above all agrreed upon by the majority who "speak" it?

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 25, 2008, 12:15:34 PM
just done a google search and all i came up with is .-.-.-  for period ???

same on my "just learn morse"  program and morse generator. why all the same thing if this is not what im  supposed to be using ?

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: W5UXH on December 25, 2008, 02:35:05 PM
Billy commented:  "just done a google search and all i came up with is .-.-.- for period ???"

If you do a google search for American Morse Code you should find several tables that compare American to International.  Under American (the old telegraphy code) you will find ..--.. for period.  One of the links that shows the table is http://chss.montclair.edu/~pererat/percode.htm

Some folks do converse using American Morse, but I have never heard normal International Morse qsos where anyone uses ..--.. for a period!  Maybe this a European thing?

(Billy had previously written:  "I also use .-.-.- for period as apposed to what i hear more commonly ..--..")


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K7KBN on December 25, 2008, 07:50:56 PM
Maybe the problem is that the senders don't really intend to send a period.  From the time I was a Novice, just about the only actual periods I heard or sent were those in actual messages.  Most of the time, at the end of a thought, I'd send BT (_..._), and the folks I'd be talking to would do the same thing.

In the Navy, every punctuation mark was important (especially the slant bar in MILSTRIPs!).  And there, if the draft of the outgoing message indicated a period, I sent a period.  Period.

Ham radio QSOs aren't so structured; if you want to send .-.-.- , feel free.  I don't agree with mixing American Morse with International, though.  That's a little misguided, IMO.


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0OD on December 26, 2008, 02:07:12 PM
"is there a site or article thats up to date and correct and above all agrreed upon by the majority who "speak" it?"

No, and neither will you get the same advice on English at a back county grade school as you would at Harvard.

There are different dialects of CW depending on whether the user is a contester, traffic handler, MARS op, 60 wpm CW ragchewer etc, etc.  

I heard ? used a lot as a period about 25 years ago (yes confusing)

I never use the old .-.-.-. I think I mostly just leave a brief pause before starting the next thought.  I'm a DXer/contester so I follow the standard practice in that area. Works fine.


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: M0JHA on December 26, 2008, 02:31:12 PM
There are different dialects of CW depending on whether the user is a contester, traffic handler, MARS op, 60 wpm CW ragchewer etc, etc.


never thought of it that way. Thanks for all the replies.

billy


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: W0NHH on December 27, 2008, 12:31:35 PM
Everyone has his own homemade abreviations nowdays.  Goes well with the current illiteracy.  Welcome to the twenty first century tower of Babel.  


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0OD on December 27, 2008, 01:52:04 PM
"Everyone has his own homemade abreviations nowdays. Goes well with the current illiteracy. Welcome to the twenty first century tower of Babel." [sic]
-------------
Geezer alert!   QBF... "are you flying in a cloud?"

Most old Q signals (and other abbreviations) are obsolete, as with QBF. Even once-vital ones become obsolete. There is little need nowadays to announce ones listening frequency with QSX. With crystal controlled radios in the 50s and before, QSX was common.

The Tone part of RST has been ignored for decades although I still hear a 598C or X handed out about once in 10,000 Qs. Anyone with a truly awful chirp is unlikely to understand a correct RST, anyway.

One useful ham Q signal was invented in the 60s/70s... QRL. The current usage is "Is this frequency in use?" That's not what the old 1947 QRL meant.

Here's a complete list of Q-signals from 1947. Most are hilarious now and probably were in 1947!
http://www.wemsi.org/qsigs.html#S

Good thing our language, Ham and English, is flexible.  


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: N1UK on December 30, 2008, 03:48:24 PM
I was watching an old movie the other day and they actually used QDM and gave a bearing, on R/T

Mark N1UK


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0RS on January 01, 2009, 03:49:10 AM
K0OD:  " I certainly never called a ham 'dear'"

"Dear" was and is a quite common form of address in DX QSOs.  "TNX FER CALL DR OM."  It's a polite yet personal form of address, particularly when you haven't copied the other station's name yet.  No weirder than opening a letter with "Dear Sir."  Like many CW conventions, this was popularized by Russian hams but widely picked up internationally.  Another convention popularized by Russians was the substitution of "OP" for name.  This made sense since during the Soviet era many hams operated from club stations. These were easily identifible by the "K" in the suffix, ie: UA3KXX.  Sort of a shorthand way of saying, "Yes, you may have worked UA3KXX before, but today the operator is Val (or Boris or Vlad)."

K0OD:  "...QRL. The current usage is "Is this frequency in use?"

Nope.  QRL means "This frequency *IS* in use." "QRL?" means "Is this frequency in use?"  Big difference.  Any Q signal is a statement, not a question, unless it is followed by "?"

K0OD:  "There is little need nowadays to announce ones listening frequency with QSX."

QSX is still very useful in DX operations.  Many DX stations announce their split listening frequency by using QSX.  "CQ CQ de DX1DX QSX UP 5."  Japanese hams recently gained 160m spectrum, but until their band expansion it was common to hear a JA calling CQ above 1900 kHz and announcing their listening frequency by "CQ CQ de JA1XXX QSX 18," meaning they were listening on 1818 kHz.


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0OD on January 01, 2009, 01:30:52 PM
I rarely use ham lingo (such as OM, or handle or rig (on SSB)) that's not rooted in standard English. Some ham jargon or CW abbreviations never had much on-air acceptance but somehow gained a bit of legitimacy by inclusion in ARRL literature aimed at newcomers.

With the hobby's influx of teens in the 50s I guess it was decided in Newington that a secret language would appeal to the The Beat Generation who would find another code, in addition to Morse, to be Cool or Groovy or, for those a decade older, Swell. Think of Maynard G Krebs at a DX-40.

Later the often-ridiculed surfeit of jargon by CBers  drove many hams to revert to plainer language. There is a point when jargon becomes silly (Broderick Crawford's Highway Patrol overuse of "10-4" or the use of "Niner" parodied in the movie Airplane).  

Similarly I eschew other stilted euro terms such as "working conditions," another phrase (along with Dear OM/OP) that ker-plopped into ham usage around 1970.  

The acid test especially for weak signal work is whether a term aids or hinders communications. The unctuous "dear" may have been appropriate for Victorian-era letter writing. But if "dear" belongs in ham Qs, perhaps we should conclude Qs with YVT (yours very truly).


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: K0RS on January 02, 2009, 02:50:48 AM
Wow.  While mostly delusional and hallucinatory, your post was immensely entertaining in sort of a James Joyce stream-of-consciousness sort of way.  Little brown froggy boys in leather aprons cavorting on a sandy beach while stringing open wire fed dipoles among the palms.  Great stuff.

Imagine, the ARRL made a play for the beat generation back in the ‘50s by inventing a secret language.  Who knew?  Maynard G Krebs with a DX-40!  I’ll bet he hooked it up to those dipoles on the beach…dah dah daddy-o!  If ol’ Maynard had that DX-40 on Gilligan’s Island maybe he coulda sent an SOS or QRRR or something.  Or handed out IOTA numbers, if indeed that’s what they do.

I always wondered what went on at those midnight Wouff Hong and Boiled Owl meetings.  I’ll bet they were secret poetry readings.  Surely they read Gregory Corso’s, “The Bomb” and Alan Ginsberg’s “Howl.”  I wonder if they left out the “F” word?  And to think when Kerouac went On the Road he was probably just going mobile on 160 meter AM!
 
Although I remember a rather protracted, if misplaced, play for CB’ers in the ‘70’s, I always thought the ARRL was more after those John Birch types and Goldwater Young Rethuglicans.  Remember the QST cover in ’64 with a tribander over the Whitehouse?  That was before Photoshop too.  Copthorn MacDonald advocated linking hippie communes by ham radio, but I think the ARRL lobbied the FCC to make that illegal.  

While not personally a proponent of the term “dr”, I was just trying to provide a little CW etymology (for those with considerably less experience than yourself, of course).  I certainly don’t get offended when someone directs it at me in a QSO.  And I most certainly don’t find it unctuous.  I just accept it for what it is; an attempt by someone to be friendly and/or polite…possibly in a language that they find difficult and unfamiliar…like those “4” stations on 75 meters.  Perhaps if you were a bit more secure in you own sexual orientation being called “dear” by someone of the same sex wouldn’t seem so threatening.

I understand that due to email, letter writing may soon be relegated to history.  However I didn’t realize beginning a letter with “Dear whomever” was so antiquated as to be regarded Victorian.  I still get lots of credit card solicitations that begin “Dear Sir.” These seem to be otherwise thoroughly contemporary.

YVT


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: KA9HJZ on January 08, 2009, 10:39:22 AM
We used Q and Z signals in the army but most people don't know what they mean anymore. I still keep a list handy in case someone uses one,QTH QSO, QSL,QSB, QRN, QRM,QRN,QRZ and of course QRS are still out there also new operators can use ZZO. Qru INT QRU.


Title: Abbreviations
Post by: VK3GDM on January 09, 2009, 08:10:40 PM
Hi all,
Well after several weeks of Dxing I can safely say that many stations use 'DR' in QSO. JAs, Russian and European. eg. FB DR DAVID TNX FER RPT....

'DR' is in the 1997 ARRL handbook. DR = Dear

I'm also definitely hearing some VK hams in a local CW net using 'tre' for 'there'.  This must be local dialect as I haven't heard it anywhere else and seems no one on this forum has.  The VKs using it are old time maritime operators maybe they got it from there.

I think I will take advice mentioned in this post and use only the well known abbreviations.

I liked the article re: http://www.geocities.com/scottamcmullen/Accent.pdf

Regards all, thanks for your comments.

David