eHam

eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: KD6KVL on December 20, 2012, 08:00:36 AM



Title: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 20, 2012, 08:00:36 AM
http://dx-world.net/2012/zl9hr-aftermath/

Anyone know anything?
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K7KB on December 20, 2012, 08:42:15 AM
I'm not 100% sure how DX'peditions work, but it seems to me that whatever money comes in first should pay for expenses, and then what's left over would be distributed among the members who paid out of their own pocket unless there was some prior agreement that stated otherwise. Also, there would be a full and open accounting of the ledger between the members of the team. Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding and can be resolved soon.

John K7KB


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 20, 2012, 09:13:53 AM
It seems implied that if all the members pay equal stakes, the donations get evenly dispursed to all.  It sounds like the author is claiming that up to and during the expedition, there was some deflection on the matter, and silent treatment after.
We are only hearing one side of this, and if the members were concerned, to object up front, maybe the whole story will come out for clarification.
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 20, 2012, 10:19:41 AM
I wonder if there were a way to create a "fund" to allow donations to go specifically to reimbursing the participants?

This is crazy. It is true it is "one side of the story", but the other side has not agreed to provide their side!

paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WA2TPU on December 20, 2012, 11:00:58 AM
Just send money to their web-site  and hope for the best use of your money being sent. We really have no control over ZL9HR's use of monies received.  I have to have a little bit of faith that ALL money received will be distributed in a fair and just manner. I know that's a bunch to assume on anyone's part but I figure they did a good job getting to and back from Campbell Island and made many, many a contact as ZL9HR.....Thus, I must honestly think the ZL9HR Team will do what's right,correct, and proper with the funds given by individual donations from the world-wide ham community. Anyway.....that's the way I see it. I tip my hat to the ZL9HR Team....they surely did a GREAT JOB under less than ideal band conditions.
Best regards and many 72/73.
Don sr. --WA2TPU --


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 20, 2012, 12:58:35 PM
Just send money to their web-site  and hope for the best use of your money being sent. We really have no control over ZL9HR's use of monies received.  I have to have a little bit of faith that ALL money received will be distributed in a fair and just manner. I know that's a bunch to assume on anyone's part but I figure they did a good job getting to and back from Campbell Island and made many, many a contact as ZL9HR.....Thus, I must honestly think the ZL9HR Team will do what's right,correct, and proper with the funds given by individual donations from the world-wide ham community. Anyway.....that's the way I see it. I tip my hat to the ZL9HR Team....they surely did a GREAT JOB under less than ideal band conditions.
Best regards and many 72/73.
Don sr. --WA2TPU --

Why would you have faith, that all monies will be sorted out in the end, when one operator has just stated he has totally disassociated himself from the group receiving the funds (HARAOA) and it's deceitful (his word) fundraising endeavors?

VK3YP's email is very clear. He says members will not receive any of the donations since that was not the agreement.

We can now add legal expenses to the cost of an expedition as it looks like written contracts will now be needed to be drawn up.

This is just about the worst thing that could happen seeing as these expeditions were already extremely difficult to pull off.

Does anybody have a link to the actual letter that was written by either ZL3CW or 9M6XRO?  I am reading a news article on DX World.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 20, 2012, 01:23:30 PM
The actual link / letter was posted by ZL3CW on DX World Facebook page..

Co-leader VK3YP has replied via Dx World comments section:

http://dx-world.net/2012/zl9hr-aftermath/#comment-47431


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 20, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
The actual link / letter was posted by ZL3CW on DX World Facebook page..

Co-leader VK3YP has replied via Dx World comments section:

http://dx-world.net/2012/zl9hr-aftermath/#comment-47431

Thank you, Col.  I did not know you created the DX World site.  Congratulations on a job well done!  I read your site often.

I am glad that VK3YP has chimed in so we at least have a more balanced story. 

Only the members know what deals were made and who did what work but whatever disputes they have within the group nothing can take anything away from the first rate job they did. They simply ran a marvelous expedition to a very remote island and they allowed me to work an ATNO.  I am very grateful. 

73,

Chris/NU1O




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 20, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Wow.... this is a sad ending to an otherwise successful expedition.  I am certain that most any operation of this magnitude will have a little bump or two in the road now and then, but this is not good. Not good for DX in general, not good for the participants and very possibly not good for future expeditions which are in planning stages. You would think that the order of division of funds, etc. would have been agreed on prior to sailing. Here's hoping they get these financial matters worked out to everyone's benefit/satisfaction and lets go on the the next ATNO ;D

Actually, I was hoping for something to get us away from the LOTW discussion, but not like this. :(

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 20, 2012, 05:31:52 PM
My initial reaction was "This is crazy." Now upon reading VK3YP's cogent response my reaction is "This is weird."

paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 20, 2012, 05:44:39 PM
Vk3yp said the team members would receive statements of financing after.
My question would be, did this arise during the expedition from dissent on the crews part?
It's a little cloudy.
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 20, 2012, 06:13:06 PM
It was clearly explained during the dxpedition that a statement would be provided once all the financials where settled and this would take months after the dxpedition. Donations pledged are still to be paid, we still have bills to pay etc. our equipment won't leave NZ until mid January etc.

What triggered this is a email from Gene K5GS demanding that accounts be finalized by end of Jan 30th and payments made to team members by Feb 7th. Also he demanded that his auditor friend conduct an audit of the financials.

I will not respond to such threats. This has been a first class operation only let down by a poor choice of some team members who argued, would not follow team leaders instructions and caused difficulties during the actual operation.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 20, 2012, 07:07:52 PM
Let me provide the most recent example. On arrival in Bluff NZ the boat was unloaded with the boat crew doing most of the work. The equipment was loaded onto the truck heading directly for the warehouse in Invercargill NZ, for equipment to be placed into the shipping crates.
The team all went at the same time in a a hired van (paid by myself) back to the warehouse with the agreement that every team member helps in packing the equipment in the crates before anyone departs to their hotel room.
When we arrived 4 team members refused and left to go back to their hotel rooms. These same team members then had expectations that I would pay for a celebration dinner that same night.
Keep in mind I already paid $600 from my own pocket for arrival team dinner for them.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 20, 2012, 08:47:45 PM
I have contacted the remaining DX foundation sponsors of ZL9HR who between them pledged over $2000 towards the DXpedition. I have informed them as we have almost broken even on our costs to provide these funds to other future DXpeditions.
John VK3YP
ZL9HR Co Leader


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 21, 2012, 12:16:56 AM
Wow, sure is heating up in the dx-world comments.
Where's Tommy?
One operator claims the 40m moxon never came out?
No wonder they were so weak here.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 12:33:41 AM
Wow, sure is heating up in the dx-world comments.
Where's Tommy?
One operator claims the 40m moxon never came out?
No wonder they were so weak here.

The 40M moxon never came out because we lost 3 days and did not have time to set it up.
I can also tell you that if it was not for the evohe boat crew of 3 men including the skipper helping haul gear onto the island and even setup antennas etc. ZL9HR would have been a total flop. We where blessed with lazy operators who expected a 5 star dxpedition in which they did not need to lift a finger to help but just sit at the radio and operate.
And they are demanding money and financial statements 1 week after the dxpedition to offset costs - which was never agreed.
VK3YP
ZL9HR Co Leader



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 12:35:39 AM
The agreement with the operators was $1000 contribution - end of story. There was never any agreement to any donations or equipment etc.
I would like to give you a full finalised statement of ZL9HR expenses 1 week after the dxpedition has finished but this will not be possible. We are still receiving donations and not even a QSL card has gone out yet etc.

This an advance payment for any surplus once the ZL9HR books are closed in due course.
We will provide a financial statement to NCDXF along with donations of any surplus funds.

In good faith I have advanced $1000 USD to NCDXF via Paypal.


ReceiptPayments by PayPal

Contributor:

Donations Coordinator:
Ioannis Chalkiarakis
PO BOX 13
Sans Souci, New South Wales 2219
Australia

Northern California DX Foundation
treas@ncdxf.org

Confirmation Number: 8JU77059153185014 Placed on 21 Dec 2012
Purpose Donation
Amount:
NCDXF Contribution
Reference: HARAOA $1,000.00 USD
Total Amount: $1,000.00 USD


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 12:47:36 AM
So far in the last day have returned $3000 USD to the Major DXpedition foundations. Once the ZL9HR books are closed any excess funds will be paid to NCDXF. This is to return to the DX community.
Myself and Tommy do not put many hours of our own time and our own personal funds to arrange successful DXpeditions, Club events etc. to make money. We do it for the hobby.
Tommy and the HARAOA team have spent countless weekends at the local Bunnings hardware store (i.e. Home Depot) selling bbq sausages and drinks  in Sydney to raise thousands of dollars for the club and to purchase the TS590S and SPE amps we used on VK9HR and ZL9HR.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 9M6XRO on December 21, 2012, 03:00:09 AM
I have just come across VK3YP's posts on this topic and there could never be a more skewed or twisted account of what actually took place on this DXpedition. Let's start with the least of them, the comment about lazy operators. VK3YP was the tallest, youngest and probably fittest guy there but he was bone idle - as I told him, he loved hard work - he could stand and watch it all day. He was quite happy to stand back and watch the 'seniors' do all the toil. Same style on the radio - he took every opportunity to remain on the boat and let others run the pile ups. In my opinion this man has no affinity whatsoever with ham radio.
Let's be clear, us international ops paid US$8700 each upfront for this DXpedition to go ahead. I am not new to DXpeditioning, I've been a ham for over 50 years, so I am well aware of the ethics involved in sponsorship, donations etc. and what is legitimate. Mostly I operate unsponsored, but in the past I have never had to sign an agreement to get a small share of the funds at the end of a DXpedition to offset heavy expenses - always done amicably among the group. This is accepted practice but not with HARAOA it seems. We, according to VK3YP were entitled to NOTHING. The claim that we were seeking money to cover our airfares to New Zealand and "sightseeing trips" is simply offensive but exemplifies the character assassination VK3YP has been carrying out on team members ever since we asked for a Financial Reconciliation for what was after all a DXpedition with a close to $100,000 budget. Does asking for an accounting sound unreasonable to anyone?
Gene/K5GS, an all round great guy, was our spokesman to email requesting the Financial Reconciliation. His email could not have been more polite, asking that a date be set, suggesting January 31st for the account to close, with a distribution to team members, subject to our approval, to be made by February 7th. In that email he stated that any claims for repairs to equipment, additional expenses (like John's dinner bill of NZ$600) would first be deducted before distribution. Any funds received after that date we agreed would go to HARAOA with no further accounting necessary. Don't forget the QSL Mgr is asking about $5.30 a card by OQRS so we are not talking pennies here. John's reaction to Gene's email was that he was being "threatened" basically by greedy ops trying to get what they could. Pardon? The only way he was under threat was because someone was asking to see the books. A big secret, it seems.
Don't be taken in by his claim that he paid the AUD5000 customs bond, he gets it all back when the gear arrives back in Australia. Somehow he always omits to mention that.
I just read he has even given his "recommendation" on which ops are suitable for future DXpeditions. This from a guy whose real love is 27MHz CB. Thanks, John, but I don't need your recommendation to get on  DXpedition. 
Before we even departed NZ for Campbell Island, $17,000 in sponsorship money had already been pledged. What on earth is all his talk about "breaking even" - the boat hire was paid, the fuel was paid, the fee for the DoC Officer to accompany us was already paid - all by the ops. My hunch is that the plan was for the sponsorship money to build up a stock of equipment for HARAOA e.g. a 40m Moxon, 5el 6m yagi (neither unpacked on Campbell), gennys, satellite phone, reels and reels of cable etc.
It is good to see some of the call signs on this thread and I can recall working AF3Y, NU1O and K3STX. BTW for you RTTY enthusiasts out there, we did not do as much as I would have liked. We all assumed an interface to N1MM Logger would be ready to use but VK3YP insisted we use the HRD Log RTTY program - can you imagine, a massive pile-up, AFSK with a 2.4KHz USB filter. It was just not up to the job and we also had to export the log from it and import it into N1MM. VK3YP's attitude to RTTY can be summed up by his comment to me "We forgot to bring the monkey, so you can do RTTY"......believe me we are not dealing with a very nice guy on this thread.
BTW, not ONE WORD has been heard from our "Team Leader" since we landed back in New Zealand. Both failed to turn up at the final "celebration dinner" which was planned months in advance. We had served our purpose I guess...

73 - John 9M6XRO / GM3OOK


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 03:12:36 AM
John please post Genes email to me in full here.
I will not respond to threats and deadlines to pay money.
Excess funds will go back to the DX Community who supported this event.

John - I asked you to stay and help pack the equipment on our return but you refused (along with Gene, Pista and Don) and left to your hotel room - remember that ?

You can say what you like to defend yourself like you have done in your previous email but the facts are that you and the other 3 took off and left the rest of the team to pack the equipment.

And you expect financial restitution as well ?


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 04:05:30 AM
"Gene/K5GS, an all round great guy, was our spokesman to email requesting the Financial Reconciliation. His email could not have been more polite, asking that a date be set, suggesting January 31st for the account to close, with a distribution to team members, subject to our approval, to be made by February 7th. In that email he stated that any claims for repairs to equipment, additional expenses (like John's dinner bill of NZ$600) would first be deducted before distribution. Any funds received after that date we agreed would go to HARAOA with no further accounting necessary."

Your comment above is a Total fabrication John padded with the words "polite", "an all round great guy", "suggested" etc.
Lets see the real email ?
Why don't you post it ?

John please post Genes email to me in full here for all to see.
I will not respond to threats and deadlines to pay money.
Excess funds will go back to the DX Community who supported this event.

John - I asked you to stay and help pack the equipment on our return but you refused (along with Gene, Pista and Don) and left to your hotel room - remember that ?

You can say what you like to defend yourself like you have done in your previous email but the facts are that you and the other 3 took off and left the rest of the team to pack the equipment.

And you expect financial restitution as well ?


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 05:05:44 AM
I have read enough in this forum and on DX World to have made up my mind.

Every team member deserves an accurate accounting of the funds.  I have a degree in Accounting and that's just a no-brainer.  It should probably be done by an independent party with no ties to any member so it is truly independent. My only concern is the cost because when you start hiring accountants and other professionals the expenses will escalate - very quickly.

In a previous post I made an off-the-cuff remark that expeditions will soon need lawyers. Hopefully that remains a joke and never comes to fruition. My father and two brothers are lawyers so I am not about to knock the profession but even they would advise to work this out amongst yourselves -- if possible.

Although $100,000 is a lot of money for individual hams to lay out it's not a great deal of money to account for.  Perhaps you guys could find some club whom everybody trusts and let them have their financial person/team do the accounting. You really only need a bookkeeper. You don't need a certified auditor unless that was part of your deal. My personal C.P.A would charge at least $1,000 to audit the books. I'd rather see that kind of money be used to make actual QSOs.

With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air.  My donation was certainly not made with the intent or any expectation it would wind up in the coffers of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.  I am familiar with most of the clubs who make regular donations to help fund these expeditions and H.A.R.A.O.A is not a club I recognize as a frequent donor. It's very possible I am mistaken but it's an honest observation.

If the whole trip had been carried out and paid for by the members of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia I would then feel the donations belong to that club. However, since only two team members are members of H.A.R.A.O.A this trip was a de facto operation put on by the individual team members.

To VK3YP and VK3IR, I expect my donation to be used to reimburse the team members for the upfront money they expended. I do not want my donation going to the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.

I have one question which hopefully a team member could answer.  On the ZL9HR web site under sponsors one of the first things I see is the emblem of H.A.R.O.A.. That gives me the impression they were the largest donor to this expedition.  Did H.A.R.O.A. write out a significant check to cover the expenses of this expedition?  If not, why is their emblem displayed above your largest donor?


Sincerely,

Chris Scibelli/NU1O





Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 9M6XRO on December 21, 2012, 05:27:09 AM
Let's get this straight, John, we did not "take off" as you keeping saying. All the luggage, a large amount, belonging to the team ops was in the trailer of the bus. DoC did not need to inspect it, were we supposed to dump it on the street? The bus driver said his hire extended to dropping us at the motel, that was it, he would not wait and take us back to the DoC depot. "Time is money" he said. (OK you paid the bus, so what, claim it back off the sponsorship fund, we already said all legitimate expenses would be reimbursed to HARAOA first, including the dinner you paid). At the motel we offloaded all the luggage, got rooms for everyone including the guys at DoC, and placed the luggage in each room. Even Gilly's luggage was there. By that time, what was the point of us returning to the DoC depot? Did you actually need 10 guys to fill 3 crates? I spoke to Dave afterwards and he said here was no problem at all. I just cannot understand why you keep throwing up all these red herrings. I pulled my weight throughout that trip and you know it - despite the fact that I got badly bruised ribs in the rough weather heading south to Campbell and am still suffering. I never missed a shift, did double ones when others were ill, and I never slept even one minute when I was ashore in Campbell. Can you or Tommy say that?
Why don't you just end this now and do a proper accounting of this project. That is all that is being asked. No one is threatening you with anything. Jeez, if everything is above board what the heck have you got to be so defensive about? It is as much a part of the DXpedition as us paying what you asked upfront. Why can't you grasp that?


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 05:34:17 AM
Chris,

The accounts will be finalised at the completion of all transactions and not beforehand or 1 week after the event or even by Jan 30th as demanded by Gene.

All the money was used to buy the equipment and pay expenses that was needed for this event to happen.

HARAOA organized this event and provided additional funds and equipment to make this event possible.

There was an agreement made with the team around the payment structure and accepted. The travel was all paid individually by everyone directly to the travel companies. This includes the boat charter.

BTW - The total amount is less than $25K and not $100K.

Any excess funds will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community.


I have read enough in this forum and on DX World to have made up my mind.

Every team member deserves an accurate accounting of the funds.  I have a degree in Accounting and that's just a no-brainer.  It should probably be done by an independent party with no ties to any member so it is truly independent. My only concern is the cost because when you start hiring accountants and other professionals the expenses will escalate - very quickly.

In a previous post I made an off-the-cuff remark that expeditions will soon need lawyers. Hopefully that remains a joke and never comes to fruition. My father and two brothers are lawyers so I am not about to knock the profession but even they would advise to work this out amongst yourselves -- if possible.

Although $100,000 is a lot of money for individual hams to lay out it's not a great deal of money to account for.  Perhaps you guys could find some club whom everybody trusts and let them have their financial person/team do the accounting. You really only need a bookkeeper. You don't need a certified auditor unless that was part of your deal. My personal C.P.A would charge at least $1,000 to audit the books. I'd rather see that kind of money be used to make actual QSOs.

With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air.  My donation was certainly not made with the intent or any expectation it would wind up in the coffers of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.  I am familiar with most of the clubs who make regular donations to help fund these expeditions and H.A.R.A.O.A is not a club I recognize as a frequent donor. It's very possible I am mistaken but it's an honest observation.

If the whole trip had been carried out and paid for by the members of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia I would then feel the donations belong to that club. However, since only two team members are members of H.A.R.A.O.A this trip was a de facto operation put on by the individual team members.

To VK3YP and VK3IR, I expect my donation to be used to reimburse the team members for the upfront money they expended. I do not want my donation going to the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.

I have one question which hopefully a team member could answer.  On the ZL9HR web site under sponsors one of the first things I see is the emblem of H.A.R.O.A.. That gives me the impression they were the largest donor to this expedition.  Did H.A.R.O.A. write out a significant check to cover the expenses of this expedition?  If not, why is their emblem displayed above your largest donor?


Sincerely,

Chris Scibelli/NU1O






Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 9M6XRO on December 21, 2012, 06:11:27 AM
John/VK3YP :

You say :

"If there are any excess funds they will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community"

Do you actually realise what you are saying here? There is no logic to it.
Those excess funds you return to NCDXF will then presumably sponsor another DXpedition. On THAT DXpedition those funds will then be distributed among the ops to offset their expenses, as usually happens.

But you will not distribute the funds to offset our $8700 expenses on ZL9HR.....how SCREWY is that????  ???



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 06:23:10 AM
The agreement was as per the dxpedition contribution fee structure as accepted by everyone.
You only paid $1000 plus $650 Landing fees as agreed.

The travel was agreed to be paid directly by each member to the travel companies including the yacht hire company.

There was NO agreement to distribute donations to any team members.

John/VK3YP :

You say :

"If there are any excess funds they will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community"

What you are saying is that NCDXF will then sponsor another DXpedition with those excess funds, and that the funds will then be distributed amongst the ops on THAT DXpedition to offset their expenses...

But you will not distribute the funds to offset our $8700 expenses on ZL9HR.....how SCREWY is that????  ???




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0YQ on December 21, 2012, 07:20:56 AM


With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air. 

That was, and always is, my intent as well.  I donate annually to NCDXF and also individually to each trip just for this reason. 

After reading this thread I'm also glad that nobody was hurt or mutinied.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K7KB on December 21, 2012, 08:06:46 AM
Wow, it's a real shame that it has come down to this from such a top notch operation. You would hope that a gentlemen's agreement would be all you need but it seems that now it will come down to written contracts between the team leaders, supporting organization(s), and the team members. And eventually this might curtail future DX'peditions because of the legal requirements. Come on guys, work it out. Tis the season you know :)

John K7KB  


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 21, 2012, 08:20:18 AM
I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 21, 2012, 09:07:42 AM
I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul

Paul, I agree, this airing of all this dirty laundry here is not doing anyone any good.  Parts of it may be amusing reading to those persons who follow soap operas, etc., but IMHO this is not the place to iron out differences of this type.  Hopefully, all parties will come to an agreement that will more or less satisfy everyone and we can move on to the next expedition. I think a few steps back and a deep breath or two all around may be helpful here.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0RS on December 21, 2012, 09:11:55 AM
I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul

I agree 100% with Paul.

I am saddened and embarrassed to to see this discussion taking place on the eHam forum.  I sincerely hope that the members of the DXdepition can arrive at solution or consensus that is satisfactory to the participants...in private.

Enough of this trial by public opinion and these hearsay accusations.

Larry/K0RS


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 21, 2012, 09:21:58 AM
I see they have ended the DX-World thread. I think we would be well served if this one was terminated as well. No good being done here.......

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 21, 2012, 10:12:33 AM
Actually DX World has re-opened comments:

Quote
At the requests of many, and along the lines of closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial, people are genuinely interested to know about this situation as future donations to HARAROA (and other organisations) may ride on it.

Every comment will be moderated before publishing – doesn’t matter if you’ve posted previously. The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events.

Usage of “Liar” or “Full of sh*t” are not welcome and spirals into the territory of libel.



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W2IRT on December 21, 2012, 10:29:30 AM
Usage of “Liar” or “Full of sh*t” are not welcome and spirals into the territory of libel.

I would say the former is actually valid if one can back up a deliberate untruth and the latter is valid with proof from a board-certified proctologist or gastroenterologist :D

Otherwise, I do agree, a full and open dialog is in the best interests of the amateur community on many different and highly-relevant levels. This, to me, is about an issue vastly more telling than money.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0RS on December 21, 2012, 10:55:59 AM
Quote
closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial

Bull.  Mudslinging and hurling accusations are in no way akin to a trial.  That statement is nonsense.

Quote
The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events

More bull.  While there are plenty of voyeurs out there that will follow this soap opera with barely self-contained glee, the fact is that these poor actors on an international stage behaving like children will make the vast majority of DXers more disinclined to contribute financially to DXpeditions in the future.  The DX world in general will suffer for this.  Grow up.  Keep your pissing contests private, please.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 21, 2012, 11:25:41 AM
K0RS,

The irony of your post is not lost on me..



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W6GX on December 21, 2012, 11:25:53 AM
Quote
closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial

Bull.  Mudslinging and hurling accusations are in no way akin to a trial.  That statement is nonsense.

Quote
The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events

More bull.  While there are plenty of voyeurs out there that will follow this soap opera with barely self-contained glee, the fact is that these poor actors on an international stage behaving like children will make the vast majority of DXers more disinclined to contribute financially to DXpeditions in the future.  The DX world in general will suffer for this.  Grow up.  Keep your pissing contests private, please.

Agreed.  I don't see how there could be a 'winner' emerging from this pissing contest.

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0RS on December 21, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
K0RS,

The irony of your post is not lost on me..

Perhaps that's because there is no irony intended.

Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Donating a few bucks to the OQRS doesn't buy you a front row seat to a food fight.

It could be argued that major donors are entitled to some type of financial accounting, but even that assertion is dubious.  Contributors donate expecting that a DXpedition actually takes place.  If they are scammed of their donation or if the expedition significantly underperforms, then they have an interest in what became of their money.  I don't think anyone would argue that is the case with this particular operation.  How funds are distributed internally is the business of the members of the DXpedition.  That is not to say there are no problems here, but it is difficult for me to comprehend how that is the interest of the DX community at large.  I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this does a disservice to the DX community, especially with the dubious conduct and language that has so far been exemplified.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 21, 2012, 12:35:00 PM
Quote
Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Those who donated, personally, and significantly?

Quote
I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this...<snip>

Well, don't read or reply then, and let those with justifiable comments/complaints have a voice in this serious matter.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0AP on December 21, 2012, 12:53:58 PM
Quote
Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Those who donated, personally, and significantly?

Quote
I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this...<snip>

Well, don't read or reply then, and let those with justifiable comments/complaints have a voice in this serious matter.

Exactly. If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do. As long as this forum's rules are not broken I have no problem what others have to say about anything related to the HAM radio. Significant amount of sponsorship is being involved here so, in my opinion, the public have the right to know what is going on.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 01:28:29 PM
There is one major benefit that this airing of "dirty laundry" can bring:

From now on - EVERY DX-pedition should publish a full accounting of every penny taken in and where it was used as a spreadhseet posted on their DX-ped website.

It would also have a list of the actions the team will take regarding what happens when they fall short - break even or have an "overage" as far as money is concerned.

In other words, what N1DG called for - which is Full "Transparency".

Call it the DX-er Financial Code of Conduct . . . .


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0RS on December 21, 2012, 01:44:34 PM
It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

@MM0NDX:
Quote
Those who donated, personally, and significantly?
Did you bother to read or comprehend my previous post?

@K0AP
Quote
If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do.
Far from telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm simply suggesting interested parties consider the implications of their unseemly behaviour on funding for future DXpeditions.  BTW, isn't telling me not to read or comment on the posts contrary to your own advice?  Do I not have a right to be as interested in the future of DXing as anyone else?

For those of you who are enjoying wallowing in this pathetic display, have a great time.



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 01:54:12 PM
It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

I was a donor and a pilot for this operation. The idea to punish those who donated their time and money to work an operation that was successful and did everything correct "by the book" as far as a RADIO operation - but had some internal issues is a rediculous idea.

I also very much wish this was never aired in public - and think it did a lot more harm to do so - but since it was - the discussion was opened up to the public and people participated in the discussion. Also - if some governing group tries to dictate who can say what and when - then you get into a freedom of speech issue.

Rather than punish people like me who donated time, money and who earned an ATNO - why not make lemonade out of a lemon and call for a full accounting from now on _within_ each DX-pedition. Full transparency would be a MUCH better way to self-regulate - far better than the ARRL or the DXAC or all of us particpating in this discussion - including yourself.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0AP on December 21, 2012, 02:09:57 PM
It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

@MM0NDX:
Quote
Those who donated, personally, and significantly?
Did you bother to read or comprehend my previous post?

@K0AP
Quote
If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do.
Far from telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm simply suggesting interested parties consider the implications of their unseemly behaviour on funding for future DXpeditions.  BTW, isn't telling me not to read or comment on the posts contrary to your own advice?  Do I not have a right to be as interested in the future of DXing as anyone else?

For those of you who are enjoying wallowing in this pathetic display, have a great time.



Of course you as anyone else have a right to be interested in the future of DXing. That is why we should have open discussions about issues like this and not lock down topics as someone suggested earlier and you have agreed 100% with.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 02:56:19 PM
I totally agree that as far a sponsors are concerned who make such events possible - every Dxpedition receiving donations should post the financials.
 
The ZL9HR financials will be posted on the HARAOA website.

John VK3YP
ZL9HR Team Co Leader


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 04:12:29 PM
There is one major benefit that this airing of "dirty laundry" can bring:

From now on - EVERY DX-pedition should publish a full accounting of every penny taken in and where it was used as a spreadhseet posted on their DX-ped website.

It would also have a list of the actions the team will take regarding what happens when they fall short - break even or have an "overage" as far as money is concerned.

In other words, what N1DG called for - which is Full "Transparency".

Call it the DX-er Financial Code of Conduct . . . .

When you come right down to it when an expedition accepts donations from the public what you basically have is a partnership.  If I can buy one share in Microsoft at ~ $27 and I am entitled to receive quarterly and annual reports from a corporation with a market capitalization of about $250 billion one can make a very good case that anytime amateur community funds are utilized in an expedition there should be a financial statement made public.

I believe in full financial disclosure by expeditions which accepted donor money.

Calling for full financial transparency is one thing but getting the expeditions to make public the information is entirely different matter.  The only way I can see it happening is if a big donor like the Northern California DX Foundation said they would no longer make donations to expeditions unless the financials were going to be made public within a reasonable time after the expedition was over.

We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 04:19:46 PM
We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

If only 100 hams who actually donate $100 or more to DX-peditions join forces and demand financial transparency and better yet - accountability - I am sure things will change.

It doesn't matter what people post on eHam or on DX World - what matters is what people donate money wise.

If you post on these social web sites but don't back it up with a serious donation - you are just farting into the wind . . .

Of course, there are tax issues too - so I am only starting a discussion here . . . .


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 04:35:40 PM
We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

If only 100 hams who actually donate $100 or more to DX-peditions join forces and demand financial transparency and better yet - accountability - I am sure things will change.

It doesn't matter what people post on eHam or on DX World - what matters is what people donate money wise.

If you post on these social web sites but don't back it up with a serious donation - you are just farting into the wind . . .

I will tell you what, let's try to get as many DXers as we can to demand full financial disclosure and we can all attach our call signs to a pledge, petition, or whatever we deem to call it.

I have just wrote I am for full disclosure and I'm willing to become a member and put my my money where my mouth is.

73,

Chris/NU1O




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: HS0ZIB on December 21, 2012, 04:36:15 PM
Quote
The only way I can see it happening is if a big donor like the Northern California DX Foundation said they would no longer make donations to expeditions unless the financials were going to be made public within a reasonable time after the expedition was over.

I agree 100% with this statement.  Any large donor should make the above a condition of their donation.

But it should not stop at just money.  I understand that in the case of this expedition, equipments were also donated - and in some cases - not even unpacked or used, due to logistical/time constraints.  (These equipments have been mentioned already in this thread).  What has happened to these equipments?  They were donated for the expedition, not for general club use in the future... (at least that is my understanding).

Simon


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 05:02:33 PM
I am sure they tried to work this problem out behind the scenes but were ignored and had no choice but to go public. It was obvious to me the member who started the Facebook post and the expedition member who wrote the post in this forum, John, 9M6XRO, were trying to rally public support for their cause.

I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.

To date only one person backed me up.

Anybody with any brains can see what happened here and I think more of you ought to call for the money to be returned to its rightful owners. That means more donors demand their donation be returned to those team members who advanced the money.

9M6RO, is exactly right.  If the money is sent back to the NCDXF it will be an used by an entirely different set of people. It makes ZERO sense.

I realize many of you do not want to take any position and wish this whole matter would just go away but sometimes people need to stand up for what is right.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 05:19:22 PM
NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W2IRT on December 21, 2012, 05:26:48 PM
Perhaps one step in that direction is a more-or-less standard boilerplate DXpedition contract.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 21, 2012, 05:30:35 PM

I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.
73,
Chris/NU1O


Chris, for what its worth, I dont have a problem backing you on that. That is a common sense distribution of "Left-Over/Excess" funds, and unless specified otherwise, PRIOR to starting the expedition, would have been my expectation, should I have been a team member. It just seems like the right thing to do, UNLESS there were PRIOR agreements to the contrary.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 21, 2012, 05:37:43 PM
Just a quick question here...... Do expeditions USUALLY or NORMALLY have left over or excess funds? Perhaps some of you have been in a situation to know what is the usual distribution of those funds when they exist.

Paul, N6PSE, can you add something here? What do you guys usually do if there are left over monies ???

73, Gene AF3Y



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 06:05:16 PM
NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.

I appreciate that, Rich.  As of now I am no longer wishing to see San Francisco fall into the Pacific Ocean!  ;)

I read your post in the new topic you created - "Hey DX-ers! Vote with Your Donation Money!" - and it took all of one minute before what I predicted would happen did happen. Namely, John, AE5X, stating he would have none of the idea. That is John's prerogative. The idea can still take place without John but my sixth sense says there will be more Johns to follow. For the record, I am on board with your idea.

Rich, on the ZL9HR web site I count less than 300 individual donors.  Do you have hard data to back up your numbers of 100 guys donating $100? Is that an actual number from this or some other expedition, or is that your idea of what the amount of the donation and the number who would need to make it would need to be before there would be enough leverage by individual donors to demand financial statements?  IOW, with 10 Grand of donations one could say to a team, no disclosure, no $10,000?

$100 per expedition is a lot to expect from the average ham. I think I easily made over a dozen donations this year. I have made a few recent posts which stated I have only been back into the hobby for about two years now.  In January I will start making annual contributions to the NCDXF. I honestly never realized just how important they were until the past year or so. They really do have the power to dictate terms to their beneficiaries but I have no idea if they even believe in full financial transparency.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 06:21:41 PM
Maybe some of the commentators should organize and run a dxpedition and take on the risk that comes with it ?
ZL9HR was a success and organized by hard working people driven by a interest to activate a rare entity.
Agreements to the fee structure was agreed with all team members prior to the event.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 06:24:07 PM
NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.
Rich, on the ZL9HR web site I count less than 300 individual donors.  Do you have hard data to back up your numbers of 100 guys donating $100?

Its a hypothetical based on a really pessimistic number of donors that will soon be needed for ANY serious and even remotely rare dx-pedition to take place. Let me explain in full my thinking.

1) Heard Island 2014 will cost $1 million dollars. I am involved in this DX-pedition and have been working all summer on it. I won't quote what it will cost each participant to go - but it will make ZL9HR look like total childs play. Think about it - 100 donors at $100 is a drop in the bucket and is 10% of a 100K DX-pedition. Now - multiply that by 10 for Heard Island.

2) N1DG is a genius - to have posted his slide show on DX-pedition costs - especially to "southern oceans". Don has it nailed - and I know a lot of you know what I am talking about

3) I'm 53 years old, and sadly - considered a "young" DX-er who might some day aspire to lead a DX-pedition to something like Heard Island. I have been volunteering and donating at the level that I do to "test the waters". I can't go on any of these - not because I can't afford to pay $10K to go - but because I can't take the time off work. Heard Island will cost > 10K per participant - for sure. Now - why would I even bother to try to do what seems ridiculously impossible - for "just a hobby"?

4) The leaders of the most fabled and fantastic DX-peditions are all approaching 70 years old

Who will these guys pass the baton to? Will there be enough hams to support a $1 million dollar expedition? Will environmental concerns kill the DXCC program (I have a friend and DX mentor who believes so).

I don't mean to cast a pall on all of this - but when I see a DX-pedition get so shitty like ZL9HR has about expenses and stuff - and I know what a Heard Island will cost - I get Seriously Pessimistic . . . . I don't think everyone understands this.



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 06:45:12 PM

I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.
73,
Chris/NU1O


Chris, for what its worth, I dont have a problem backing you on that. That is a common sense distribution of "Left-Over/Excess" funds, and unless specified otherwise, PRIOR to starting the expedition, would have been my expectation, should I have been a team member. It just seems like the right thing to do, UNLESS there were PRIOR agreements to the contrary.

73, Gene AF3Y

Gene, that is a given. If they had some other arrangement obviously that would dictate where the money goes.

The guys opposed to the excess money going to HARAOA or the NCDXF are very adamant and you  have the two HARAOA guys, one who will not even reply at all, versus the others.  I think if there was such a prior agreement, John, VK2YP, would have posted it online and that would've ended the debate right then and there since whether it was fair or not I think most everybody would say you guys have a written agreement, so keep it.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 07:49:35 PM
Maybe some of the commentators should organize and run a dxpedition and take on the risk that comes with it ?
ZL9HR was a success and organized by hard working people driven by a interest to activate a rare entity.
Agreements to the fee structure was agreed with all team members prior to the event.

John,

I wrote three separate posts saying what a great job the team did on the Campbell Island expedition and my call is on your donor page. When I was singing those praises I was including you and your colleague, Tommy, VK2IR. No matter the financial disputes or what I feel should happen with donations I am never going to say anything negative about the trip itself. It was a first rate expedition, in my opinion. Always was, and always will be.

However, I have read the back and forth, both in this forum and on DX World, and to be perfectly blunt your side of the story with regard to finances is the side that does not hold up.

On the one hand there is an email which is claimed to be written by you - on DX World - which states any surplus funds will stay in HARAOA but there are no excess funds. Now you are saying you have sent $1,000 to the NCDXF and that's where any remaining money will go. Did you in fact write that email or are you did not write that email?

You had a ten man team yet you are making unilateral decisions as to how much, and where surplus funds are going. Your ancestors came from Greece and even every young school child knows the Greeks invented democracy. Don't the other members get to vote on very big issues concerning money and how it is disbursed? Why are you making all these important decisions on your own?  If the agreement was the surplus stays with HORAOA why are you now changing it so money is going to the NCDXF?  It seems you are acting more like a dictator then a member of a 10 man team where each person should have one vote.

My donation was made with the intent it would help team members recover the expenses they paid from their own personal assets. I can make a donation to the NCDXF on my own.

I asked some very basic questions and I hope you will answer them.


73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 21, 2012, 08:12:17 PM
I guess I am hopelessly naive. I have ALWAYS assumed that a "$100,000" DXpedition required something approaching $100,000 UP FRONT to pay for boat, equipment, fees, etc... In that I ALSO included airfare, hotel stay waiting for boat, etc... 

When I chip in with my OQRS or whatever, I have always assumed that my money (and every individual donors money) would be totaled up and distributed (more or less) equally among the members who PAID that initial $100,000 out of their pocket. That sure seems fair to me. Why should VK3YP be out $8000 simply because the DX world wants a new one? Most of us are not wealthy. I sure as hell could not miss 2 weeks of work and spend $5000 on my hobby! The idea of large numbers of donors contributing a little bit each is to get some big $$$ to help defray to cost these guys paid OUT OF THEIR POCKET.

Why (and how) could it be any other way? Why would anyone "thank" the ZL9HR team with a donation if they thought it would be spent on fuel for the NEXT DXpedition that they might have no interest in at all?

paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 21, 2012, 08:30:21 PM
I don't understand why this keeps going in circles, it keeps being said that they only paid $1650 for the trip, but the other $6000 to the boat isn't an expense?
Did John and Tommy get compensated by the donations for this?
John your not shining in a great light here, and you keep changing the subject about sending money back and uploading lotw, whats the deal?

While I like the transparency concept, I've heard from a well known dxpeditioner that there certain expenses on these trips that are vital for things to move foward that cannot be publisized for security reasons.
I don't care so much for transparency when it could involve harm to come from someone out there trying to help get one of these things off the ground.
Lets just keep in mind that a lot of the rare countries we need are dangerous places, and the guys who go there are certainly risking life and limb for our HOBBY.

Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 08:31:17 PM

Its a hypothetical based on a really pessimistic number of donors that will soon be needed for ANY serious and even remotely rare dx-pedition to take place. Let me explain in full my thinking.

If you are saying futures expeditions - not even to places like Heard - , but to even semi-rare destinations are going to require 100 donors each donating $100, plus all the other $5, 10, and $20 donations, I am afraid we are going to come up short - far short.  

Most of our serious DXers are age 50 and above, and many are older, some much older. We have a large number of serious DXers on fixed incomes. We can forget about today's youth entering the hobby because they just are not into amateur radio. I just don't see where the additional money is going to come from.

What are you factoring in?  Is it an anticipated large increase in the cost of expeditions or our older members passing on without being replaced? Or none of the above?

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 21, 2012, 08:36:08 PM
I'm 33 and don't meet many hams my age, I'm not in a financial position to start paying $10,000 to go on multi-week dxpeditions.
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 08:41:31 PM

Its a hypothetical based on a really pessimistic number of donors that will soon be needed for ANY serious and even remotely rare dx-pedition to take place. Let me explain in full my thinking.

If you are saying futures expeditions - not even to places like Heard - , but to even semi-rare destinations are going to require 100 donors each donating $100, plus all the other $5, 10, and $20 donations, I am afraid we are going to come up short - far short.  

Most of our serious DXers are age 50 and above, and many are older, some much older. We have a large number of serious DXers on fixed incomes. We can forget about today's youth entering the hobby because they just are not into amateur radio. I just don't see where the additional money is going to come from.

What are you factoring in?  Is it an anticipated large increase in the cost of expeditions or our older members passing on without being replaced? Or none of the above?

73,

Chris/NU1O



When DXpeditions cost from $100K (ZL9HR) - $800K (Heard) and the largest DX Club or foundation gives $5K, then do the math - where do you come up with whats needed?

My hypothetical amount of 100 individual donors at $100 = $10K . . . a drop in the bucket . .

Believe me - I am working on this right now with Heard Island . . . .

You charge the particpants what?  Yeah - a lot. How many hams can afford to pay this much to go on such a trip - plus miss work for 4 - 6 weeks?

No money, no DX-pedition . . . . I have no doubt why the Top 10 Rare DX-peds are rarely activated, and why some might never be activated again . .


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 08:42:51 PM
LoTW upload was completed and announced on dx world 8 hours ago.
It's keep going around because of all the commentators who need to organize and run a dxpedition themselves before making comments from their armchairs.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 21, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
LoTW upload was completed and announced on dx world 8 hours ago.

Thank you.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 21, 2012, 09:04:53 PM
I don't understand why this keeps going in circles, it keeps being said that they only paid $1650 for the trip, but the other $6000 to the boat isn't an expense?
Did John and Tommy get compensated by the donations for this?
John your not shining in a great light here, and you keep changing the subject about sending money back and uploading lotw, whats the deal?

Frank KG6N

I have been puzzled by the very same thing. John always leaves out the cost of the boat out as if they didn't pay for it. I guess because the boat owner was paid directly by team members it is not real money. The cost was more like $8,000 plus there is a thing such as opportunity cost, or the money earned if one had stayed home and worked.

After reading Rich's very somber analysis we had better recruit some billionaire into the hobby like the Reynolds tobacco heir of years gone by. Howard Hughes was a ham as a young boy. Maybe we can ask HHMI for donations in his memory.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 21, 2012, 09:48:29 PM
Read the comments on DX world again from team members - "We only want financial summary and not any money".
Opportunity cost ? How much effort and personal funds do you think the actual organizers put into this event ?


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 21, 2012, 09:55:46 PM
I think you've clarified this information will be on the website, unless your offering to state it here.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WL7E on December 22, 2012, 05:22:59 AM
Tommy VK2IR was heard working E51E on 40 ssb earlier prior to 1000z.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W5JON on December 22, 2012, 06:13:13 AM
This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Can the simple question as to who paid for the boat, and where the money came from, that transported the team to the island not be clearly answered. It seems to me that it is not that difficult a question, and would resolve a lot of the money issues.

73,

John


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 9M6XRO on December 22, 2012, 07:16:47 AM
This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Can the simple question as to who paid for the boat, and where the money came from, that transported the team to the island not be clearly answered. It seems to me that it is not that difficult a question, and would resolve a lot of the money issues.

73,

John


It's very simple, John, the boat costs were paid by the team members. We also paid our share for fuel for the generators and landing fees. Like the others I paid the equivalent of US$8730. The whole thing is very simple - all sponsorship and donations, everything, went to HARAOA and we have been told by VK3YP that the team members will receive no assistance with our expenses from those funds. VK2IR the Team Leader has not said one word on the subject.
That's it in a nutshell, an explanation in 5 lines, all the rest is a smoke screen.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K4HB on December 22, 2012, 08:07:49 AM
I have read the comments on DX World and eHam. Judging by these comments, it appears there's a lack of transparency by the leaders of ZL9HR. I'm of the opinion that any surplus money should be evenly distributed to the team members who paid up front. Perhaps this was or wasn't agreed to prior to the DXpedition, but it's the right thing to do. That's who I wanted money to go to for DXpeditions I've contributed to, NOT future DXpeditions. I pick and choose which DXpeditions I contribute to and how much, the same as I tip servers in restaurants. I'm also of the opinion that there should be full financial disclosure to the team members and major contributors.

Anyone who QSLed via OQRS contributed something. Their cost to use OQRS is €4 minus the PayPal fee. (.30 + 3.9% or about 50¢) Postage to send from Spain is .85€ US and .70€ Europe. I don't have a problem with this, as we have a choice to use OQRS and contribute or send direct via mail and only contribute if we wish. I chose to use OQRS and tossed in a tiny bit extra. I would have sent more, but I wasn't satisfied with their low band efforts to the US East Coast. I didn't need them for an all time new one, but was hoping for the low bands. I do believe chances would have been better on 80 if they had spent more time on CW than on RTTY.

While all of us didn't get all the bands we wanted, many did get an all time new one. So for that, they were a successful operation. Judging by the comments and having worked them on the air, it appears they had some great ops but lacked leadership. Lashing out with insults and profanities on forums says a lot about character. From my experience in workplace situations, I've noticed that leaders with character have more respect, and are more effective. And people with character can carry on a civil discussion.

73, Hal  K4HB
http://www.k4hb.com
http://www.Hi-TechRedneck.com
http://www.k4hb.com/postage.html




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 22, 2012, 03:07:20 PM
The agreement between the team was that their contribution would be calculated based on the donations received/pledged. That's why the contribution fee was a low amount of $1000 per op.
Other team members have stated on DX World that they don't want any money but only a financial statement.

The original agreement was posted on DX world by team member ZL3CW. The individual contribution amount would be calculated on donations / sponsorship received. It was agreed by all and paid.

John 9M6XR0 has enlisted the assistance of his fellow countryman Col to drive an impartial "court" on his DX World site.
My message to Col is to organize and run a major dxpedition yourself one day.



This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Can the simple question as to who paid for the boat, and where the money came from, that transported the team to the island not be clearly answered. It seems to me that it is not that difficult a question, and would resolve a lot of the money issues.

73,

John


It's very simple, John, the boat costs were paid by the team members. We also paid our share for fuel for the generators and landing fees. Like the others I paid the equivalent of US$8730. The whole thing is very simple - all sponsorship and donations, everything, went to HARAOA and we have been told by VK3YP that the team members will receive no assistance with our expenses from those funds. VK2IR the Team Leader has not said one word on the subject.
That's it in a nutshell, an explanation in 5 lines, all the rest is a smoke screen.



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 22, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Quote
John 9M6XR0 has enlisted the assistance of his fellow countryman Col to drive an impartial "court" on his DX World site.

My message to Col is to organize and run a major dxpedition yourself one day.

1) Actually, 3YP -- John XRO has done nothing of the sort. I don't know John from Adam. Fact.

2) Your "message" is loud and clear and really doesn't surprise me. With every new reply you type, the more foolish you are becoming. Isn't it about time you took a little rest and let the real "leader" have a say?

3) Indeed, if you'd actually researched my brief ham history, I was the driving force and leader behind CY9M. We also had a signed agreement regarding surplus..

4) "Impartial" court" - ?

Whatever you want to call it does not wash with me. You, sir, have been found out and the dx world are truly disgusted. The damage you (and previously DX0DX) have done is irreparable.

Col, MM0NDX
EU Pilot: ZL9HR




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 22, 2012, 03:49:24 PM

Col - Please have someone else read and explain the agreement to you. The original op agreement posted on your impeccable website.

Quote
John 9M6XR0 has enlisted the assistance of his fellow countryman Col to drive an impartial "court" on his DX World site.

My message to Col is to organize and run a major dxpedition yourself one day.

1) Actually, 3YP -- John XRO has done nothing of the sort. I don't know John from Adam. Fact.

2) Your "message" is loud and clear and really doesn't surprise me. With every new reply you type, the more foolish you are becoming. Isn't it about time you took a little rest and let the real "leader" have a say?

3) Indeed, if you'd actually researched my brief ham history, I was the driving force and leader behind CY9M. We also had a signed agreement regarding surplus..

4) "Impartial" court" - ?

Whatever you want to call it does not wash with me. You, sir, have been found out and the dx world are truly disgusted. The damage you (and previously DX0DX) have done is irreparable.

Col, MM0NDX
EU Pilot: ZL9HR





Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 22, 2012, 03:57:34 PM
You mean you are unable (unwilling?) to post the agreement yourself here?

John, cut to the chase, where is the ZL9HR team leader? Can you answer that and can he answer some pretty simple questions which many contributors would like to see.

Quote
The original op agreement posted on your impeccable website.

A website which show-cased or publicised at every opportunity ZL9HR, and well you know it..


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 22, 2012, 06:54:23 PM
The agreement between the team was that their contribution would be calculated based on the donations received/pledged. That's why the contribution fee was a low amount of $1000 per op.

This is like a Twilight Zone episode.

I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry, I like to think of myself as a pretty smart guy. I cannot figure out what any of this means.

IF the DXpedition cost is $100,000 and IF there are 10 guys contributing $1000 each that is $10,000. That leaves a $90,000 "hole" that must be filled.

With NO donation dollars, then those 10 guys come up with EVERYTHING and end up paying $10,000 each.

With $90,000 in donation dollars those guys are DONE, they have paid their $1000.

If XRO and the other 9 have paid $8000 each, $8000 X 10 guys is $80,000. That leaves the team $20,000 short. This is a simple question: (based on this kind of math) Were there only $20,000 total in donations? If YES, then they are SOL and their share is $8000 each. But anything MORE than that $20,000 should be shared with the original 10 contributors to offset their huge expense.

VK3YP: Do you understand this kind of math? Is there something incorrect in this sort of simply math?

By the way: I suspect people "only" want a financial statement so they can know whether or not they are entitled to money. It is unreasonable to expect people to pay $8000 for a trip and NOT have excess funds returned to them.

paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0AP on December 22, 2012, 11:07:29 PM
“20 December 2012 5:28 p.m. John VK3YP said:

At this point in time the DXpedition budget is at a deficit and not in surplus. There will be NO donations paid to team members as this was never agreed prior to dxpedition. If there is any surplus and currently there is no surplus – funds will stay with HARAOA as a non profit organization to fund future events and sponsor dxpeditions.”

“20 December 2012 20:48 p.m. John VK3YP said:

There is no surplus of funds as has been explained to every team member.”

“21 December 2012 00:00 a.m. John VK3YP said:

Paul: There is nothing to resolve – the dxpedition has barely finished and we have not recovered our equipment, paid our bills, paid promised funds from sponsors or even started the QSLing.”

“21 December 2012 07:30 a.m. John VK3YP said:

A financial summary will be prepared when all the QSling etc. is completed and provided to NCDXF along with a payment to NCDXF of any excess funds in order to return to the DX community.”

“21 December 2012 21:12 p.m. John VK3YP said:

Any excess funds will go to NCDXF – an advance payment has already been made.”

My comment:
All this in roughly 24 hours time frame. From, “there is no surplus and we are in deficit” to, “advanced payment has already been made to NCDXF”. With every new post VK3YP more and more contradicts himself. The people have already made their opinion and I am sure it does not favor HARAOA. As someone said previously, this will probably be the last HAM community sponsored HARAOA dxpedition.

73 Dragan K0AP


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 22, 2012, 11:26:34 PM
I can't wait to see the financials!
I'd love to see where $17,000 went when the members paid the boat ride, the fuel, $1000 entry fee, and the $650 DoC fees.
So have these prices been reduced $1700 per team member, no your sending the money back/keeping in the coffers for the "next one".
I'm sure the DX community is awaiting the website update.
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: ZL3CW on December 23, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
I feel really sorry and sad for what’s happening but I don’t regret it. It’s not about the money and/or washing our dirty linen in public but about principles. Most donors sent their contribution to offset the cost of a specific expedition. The ten participants have entered a de-facto partnership not only between them but also with all the donors, where transparency and dialogue should have been established. You, donors, have the right to know what is happening with your contributions. May be some will be happy that the funds go to the organising Body, i.e. HARAOA while others will prefer the funds to be shared evenly between the 10 participants. 8 participants amongst 10 wanted to establish transparency (one comment was posted before about democracy) and were left with no option as the transparency and dialogue didn’t happen. There is nothing wrong to let you know what was going on with your money!

By the way, another of my principles is: what happened on the Island stays on the Island! For me it has been a fantastic adventure and I am glad I was part of it. I have also made new friends whom, I hope, I will meet again. Thanks all of you who called and worked us, sorry for the ones we did not work but be insured that we all did our best to full fill your expectations. Without you, we would not have any reasons to go there; you are also part of the excitement   ;)

We are all very glad to know that logs have been uploaded to LOTW.

Thanks also to those who stand by the same principles and in particular Col, MM0NDX and try to make our hobby a better place.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Jacky, ZL3CW / F2CW


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K9MRD on December 23, 2012, 05:34:03 PM
<<We are all very glad to know that logs have been uploaded to LOTW.>>

When were the logs uploaded to LOTW?

Thanks!

Wayne


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W2IRT on December 23, 2012, 05:47:38 PM
Yesterday. They should start matching in about 9 or 10 days from now.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W4VKU on December 23, 2012, 07:53:50 PM
Damn, This was a fantastic expedition and i hate to see it go this
way.

IMHO, QSL revenue is for a club to keep and invest for future expeditions.
However, pledges when collected, donations should
go towards payment of expenses, reimbursement to the operators,
if possible at 100%. They made an investment and should not be
left high and dry.

Any excess funds should be split up and returned on a % of investment basis to all the donors( some may not want it, in
which case, the extra can be sent to a big non-profit donor like
NCDXF).
The donors and the associations are in a better position to decide
and invest in future expeditions that need the funds the most.

This is no different than public corporations paying a
dividend because the shareholders know better to invest their
money rather than the corporation investing in ventures that do
not yield adequate ROI.


Again, i would not like to see some good camaraderie go down
the tubes for some money. Life is too short.

Krish
w4vku


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on December 24, 2012, 12:37:36 AM
I feel really sorry and sad for what’s happening but I don’t regret it. It’s not about the money and/or washing our dirty linen in public but about principles. Most donors sent their contribution to offset the cost of a specific expedition. The ten participants have entered a de-facto partnership not only between them but also with all the donors, where transparency and dialogue should have been established. You, donors, have the right to know what is happening with your contributions. May be some will be happy that the funds go to the organising Body, i.e. HARAOA while others will prefer the funds to be shared evenly between the 10 participants. 8 participants amongst 10 wanted to establish transparency (one comment was posted before about democracy) and were left with no option as the transparency and dialogue didn’t happen. There is nothing wrong to let you know what was going on with your money!

By the way, another of my principles is: what happened on the Island stays on the Island! For me it has been a fantastic adventure and I am glad I was part of it. I have also made new friends whom, I hope, I will meet again. Thanks all of you who called and worked us, sorry for the ones we did not work but be insured that we all did our best to full fill your expectations. Without you, we would not have any reasons to go there; you are also part of the excitement   ;)

We are all very glad to know that logs have been uploaded to LOTW.

Thanks also to those who stand by the same principles and in particular Col, MM0NDX and try to make our hobby a better place.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Jacky, ZL3CW / F2CW


Jacky,

Thank you for spending about $9,000 of your own money to give me an all-time new one.  I only have two regrets. The first is that donations were not returned to members who advanced the money, made the dangerous trip, made the QSOs possible, and will now not see a dime in recovery money.  My second regret is an organization which will never again put on an international expedition profited so handsomely.

I was pretty sure the eight of you who agreed tried to to settle this with the two members of HARAOA but after reading VK3YP's comments and the lack of even one public comment by group leader, VK2IR, it is obvious to me why you eight did not get anywhere and were forced to bring this matter to the public's attention.

Merry Christmas and Happy New year to you as well.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3EL on December 24, 2012, 10:34:54 AM
The content of this posting was jointly crafted by ZL9HR operators:
Jacky Calvo, ZL3CW
Pista Gaspar, HA5AO
Les Kalmus, W2LK
Dave Lloyd, K3EL
Glenn Petri, KE4KY
John Plenderleith, 9M6XRO
Gene Spinelli, K5GS
Don Studney, VE7DS

We acknowledge and welcome John, VK3YP's announcement that full accounts of the ZL9HR DX-pedition will be made publicly available.

Clarity and transparency around the finances was a principal concern and we are happy to learn this may be achieved. However, we wish to reiterate that a detailed analysis of DX-pedition income and expenditure should include the primary expedition costs - the boat charter, freight, government fees, hardware purchases, equipment repairs/replacement, shipping, etc. complete with appropriate receipts for expenses and income (donation) statements. We believe all "investors" deserve this degree of transparency.

John is quite correct in stating that amounts for boat/government fees/freight costs were provided to us, and we all paid before the boat sailed. Each team member paid a total of approximately $8,700(USD) not including personal travel, living and/or medical-evacuation insurance. However, it was always in the broader context that when donations came in they would pay down these expenses. This was communicated to us in April 2012 in e-mails from the team leaders to prospective team members, such as that posted on DX-world by Jacky, ZL3CW.

Please be clear, we don't wish anyone to be unfairly out of pocket, and certainly not John, Tommy or HARAOA. Without their initiative and hard work up-front ZL9HR would not have been on the air in 2012. We fully expect that their legitimate expenses incurred in organizing this DX-pedition be reimbursed, but also that remaining funds from donations given to support ZL9HR be used for that purpose and distributed amongst the ten expedition members who all bore the major expedition costs such as boat charter, landing permit fees, etc. Given that these costs can easily be estimated to be in excess of $100k (greatly in excess of donations, as always expected), and that it will understandably take time before a full financial accounting is forthcoming, the recent announcement of reimbursement to NCDXF of "excess" donations to ZL9HR is puzzling, to say the least.

Finally, to close on positive notes, we are all delighted to see the LoTW upload was completed in warp speed. Whatever our disagreements may be, we all wish to see post-expedition commitments honored in quick and efficient manner. The team was gratified whenever a QSO ended with "Thanks for the All Time New One" which was a key objective of the DX-pedition.

73, Dave, K3EL


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K3STX on December 24, 2012, 10:43:29 AM
Dave, How on earth do you get 8 guys together to write such a cogent note!!!! You have made this crystal clear.

I didn't say it yet, but thanks for an ATNO.

Paul


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AE5X on December 24, 2012, 10:58:56 AM
An ATNO (#298) for me - thanks guys!

John AE5X
http://www.ae5x.com/blog



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on December 24, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
AND.... an ATNO for me as well..  #311, I believe. MANY Thanks/Well Done!

73 es gud DX, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on December 24, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
Thanks for ATNO #330 - putting me one away from Honor Roll . . . .


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W2IRT on December 24, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
ATNO #327 (current) here. 7 bands/3 modes. Thanks gents!!


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K9DMV on December 24, 2012, 04:12:57 PM
Thanks for ATNO #323. Great job!!!! Glad everyone is back safe and sound.


"73"


Joe  -  K9DMV



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 24, 2012, 07:44:09 PM
Thanks for ATNO 283 and 8 band/modes!
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WD4ELG on December 24, 2012, 08:54:47 PM
ATNO, #307.  Thanks, guys!

Worked 20 CW and SSB, 17 CW...all in 15 minute time span time at the last possible moment before I departed on a road trip. 

No luck before then despite many hours trying.  It's all about timing, and blessings from the DX gods!

Well done, Gentlemen!  Thank you all!


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WL7E on December 26, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
I have been on the internet since 1990 and I have seen many things. So I decided after all this time to do a simple Google search on VK3YP and VK2IR respectively. I must say I am appalled by what was brought up. I am of the persuasion to believe nothing of what I hear and only half of what I see to come to my opinions. I looked through only the first 10 pages of each Google search. However my opinions haven’t changed.
 
As a credit to VK2IR the only thing I see of any consequence in the Google search was that while in Hawaii he was signing KH6/VK2IR from his hotel room remote back to his station in VK. Please correct me if I am wrong but DXCC would consider these contacts to be VK, not KH6. If so, there would be a trust issue with me. He even posted this to YouTube and you can hear it for yourself. However I couldn’t help but notice all the new (and expensive) equipment he has obtained in the recent past for his personal station. With all his travels recently his radio business must be doing very well indeed and he is a very wealthy man.
 
As for the other fellow, well that is a different story in the Google search. You can be your own judge if you so choose to do one. I do not believe everything I see on the internet but there has to be something behind all those posts on this one.
 
There is also mention of the TS-590s, the Moxon antennas, etc. These apparently were for the VK9HR DXpedition and there is a YouTube post of one being unpacked.

VK2IR has been silent from the beginning of these postings and now VK3YP has fallen silent. Perhaps this is a good thing as he made no sense to me at all.
 
Even though ZL9HR was not an ATNO for me (first worked in 1982, 1985, 1991) I did manage to fill two of the WARC bands (which I did not work back then) and 160. I am very appreciative for that. No KL7 worked them on 30m as they were always at noise level for us. Congratulations to all who did get a new one from this DXpedition.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WA2TPU on December 26, 2012, 12:03:53 PM
To the ZL9HR Team....

First off, I hope that the problems you folks have/ had are being resolved with kindness/care and agreement. You did a GREAT JOB from Campbell Island and gave many, many hams with a wonderful memory of working ZL9HR as a new country. Thanks SO MUCH.

On a personal note.....I sent you 2 small donations on 2 different dates via Pay Pal. However, I am not listed on your contributor's list. Why? Just curious......

Again, THANKS FOR TO THE ZL9HR TEAM....A FANTASTIC WELL DONE JOB.

Best regards and many 72/73.......HAPPY 2013 to All.
Don sr. --WA2TPU -- A TRUE 5 WATT QRP GREEN STATION.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KB2FCV on December 27, 2012, 11:12:42 AM
I'm sorry to see there are some problems afterwards, I hope they get things worked out. It sounded like a good expedition from this end, and I'm glad I was able to work them once.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WA2TPU on December 27, 2012, 05:33:18 PM
To KB2FCV.......Yep! Me too. Propagation here to ZL9HR was just plain sparse....plus the AWFUL AND TERRIBLE NON-RESPECTFUL PILE-UPS THAT CONTINUALLY WENT ON...Well....mere words can not describe or explain how I feel about those pile-ups.  I was truly GRATEFUL to finally work ZL9HR on 30 meters cw about 2 hours before dawn with my 5 watts. I've sent them 2 small donations via Pay Pal and I hope whatever problems the ZL9HR Team are having gets resolved in a kind and sincere way(s) that all team members can accept. I WANT TO THANK THE ZL9HR TEAM ONCE AGAIN. GREAT JOB! Thanks so much for pulling me out of the MESS.
Best regards and many 72/73. A Happy, Healthy, and SAFE 2013 to all.
Don sr. --WA2TPU --


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on December 29, 2012, 05:47:54 AM
Request for Payment from all ZL9HR operators of $500 AUD per person.

Please remit your $500 AUD payment for your contribution for the $5000 AUD customs "carnet" bond.

Your contribution will be returned to you on arrival of equipment into Australia and subsequent processing of the release paperwork by customs.

Approx. ETA mid to late February 2013.

John VK3YP
ZL9HR Co Leader


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WS3N on December 29, 2012, 07:29:43 AM
Posting something about money that should be for team members only. I'm not sure how much lower the reputations of you and HARAOA can fall, but you continue to dig the hole deeper.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: MM0NDX on December 29, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
3YP - is this supposed to be a wind-up, bad joke or what?

Seriously, has a clone of you posted this most silly comment? If not, why on earth are you displaying this? Smacks of desperation to obtain yet more cash ??

WS3N is spot on.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 5B4AIZ on December 30, 2012, 08:28:07 AM
Well -  this latest missive from VK3YP  can be only described as both bizarre and mendacious. further proof, although it is not needed, as to why he should not be allowed anywhere near any future expedition, let alone head it up.

We have seen from exchanges on here and on other forums that the man has a thick hide but even he must now realise that the game is over. He will already be regretting his 'largess' in returning funds to NCDXA, and promising more, as HARAOA is now a busted flush and for future funding they will need to rely on sales of sausages, meat pies and Fosters beer. 

It has been heartening to see the Ham Community stand up and speak up against this abuse of our trust. There are a couple of exceptions - firstly I would say to those who wished it all to be kept private - how can it be kept private when the leaders will not communicate with the remainder of the group? How would we be alerted to this type of situation a) for those organisations and individual donors invited to make future subscriptions, and b) would be volunteer ops of future ventures, organised by people like this?. Secondly a couple of posters have made reference to Greek nationality of  the leaders. Reference to the HARAOA website shows that the forenames of the committee are all English. Obviously they are 2nd, 3rd generation of migrants, as far removed as many of you to your Italian Irish, Polish forefathers. Do not tar all Greeks with the same brush, these guys were schooled in the Madoff/Ponzi academy rather than that of Aristotle.

There does not appear to be much we can do to assist the international ops other than display our moral support but we can help in not further feathering the nest. Let your conscience be your guide. If you have not already subscribed for a qsl consider - I am in LOTW do I really need a hard card? If you still feel that you want the card and use OQRS do not include any extra. I would like to add that you should use only direct mail with an IRC plus a elf addressed envelop or the buro but feel, in this case, that you may never see it.

73  Brian 5B4AIZ.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KB2FCV on December 30, 2012, 09:40:36 AM
To WA2TPU, yep 30 cw is where I worked em' also. I happened to luck out as they were operating a little different by actually moving their frequency around a bit through the pileup (not split). At first folks thought it was a pirate but sure enough I worked them quite easily with this method and I'm in the log.

I hope they're able to work out their disputes amicably. I also sent a bit extra in my OQRS. My thanks to all the folks who put this rare on on the air.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KD6KVL on December 30, 2012, 10:15:31 AM
I guess sending money tp NCDXF and declining further donations wasn't such a great idea?
Frank KG6N


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K0AP on January 14, 2013, 06:49:20 PM
The ZL9HR Non-HARAOA Team Members sent letter to sponsors.

http://ha5ao.novolab.hu/

73 Dragan K0AP


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on January 15, 2013, 07:54:54 PM
As far as deducting my own personal funds of $700 that I spent buying a team welcome dinner from donations for our ZL9HR team members.

Do you really think that our largest sponsors who donated $1000+ towards ZL9HR expect most of their sponsorship funds to be spent towards buying 5 star steak dinners in top end NZ restaurants ?

And they still had expectations to spend another $700 on a farewell dinner from sponsors funds as well.




Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: N6PSE on January 15, 2013, 08:11:06 PM
It would have been a nice gesture for the leaders to at least attend the farewell dinner even if they didn't want to pay for it.  This is a really unfortunate turn of events for what was otherwise a good DXpedition.  I've read enough that I've made up my mind and know where I stand.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on January 16, 2013, 05:17:59 AM
I would have preferred that my $100 donation go towards a nice "Thank You" dinner upon arriving back in NZ, embroidered ball caps for all on the team and a thank you email from either you or Tommy for helping out.

As I have said before, stellar radio operation - one that I enjoyed helping out with as a Pilot, but certainly not the post operation turn of events. Sad.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on January 16, 2013, 05:45:33 AM
The total expenses of the trip were over $100,000.  I don't have a problem with 1.5% of my donation going towards "Welcome To" and "Welcome Home" dinners. I do have a big problem with 98.5% of my donation going to HARAOA rather then the individual team members which was always my intent.

You members of HARAOA should do the right thing and refund the ZL9HR team members the amount of the donations less legitimate expenses and VK3YP can recoup his $700 for a dinner as far as I'm concerned.

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W2LO on January 16, 2013, 05:47:23 AM
 Tokens of appreciation funded from donations, e.g., a dinner, small memorabilia, etc. are entirely appropriate apart from the main purpose of donations which was to reduce the cost to the participants. Everyone who went on this fine DXpedition sacrificed time and money. I was glad to support it and am disheartened to see this rancor.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on January 16, 2013, 06:38:36 AM
Are there only two members of HARAOA? I am surprised that we have not heard from anyone else from their organization.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KY6R on January 16, 2013, 06:54:36 AM
HARAOA had a golden opportunity to "leverage" ZL9HR and use it as a showcase to show how capable they were in being able to activate really rare entities.

On the heels of the ZL9HR, they could have announced that they were "working on activating a top 10 entity", and directed people like me to donate to HARAOA's fund. Even a mention of say, Amsterdam / St. Paul - and I would have donated generously.

They even could have sold souvenirs on the HARAOA web site and really get a nice war chest going. If they offered a top shelf embroidered ZL9HR hat on the HARAOA web site, I would have bought two. I would have proudly worn it at Visalia.

Total bummer man, a missed opportunity.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on January 16, 2013, 07:11:22 AM
Are there only two members of HARAOA? I am surprised that we have not heard from anyone else from their organization.

73, Gene AF3Y

I have wondered the same thing, Gene.  I hope the other members of HARAOA are fully aware that VK3YP and VK2IR have destroyed whatever goodwill HARAOA had built up over the years. 

From now on when an amateur sees the name HARAOA they will equate it with broken promises and the misuse of donor funds. The other members of HARAOA had better look to join a new club if they would like to go on an expedition to a rare DX entity - as VK3YP and VK2IR did - because the amateur community will never again trust HARAOA to run a DXpedition.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: K7KB on January 17, 2013, 02:33:19 PM
Well it looks like some organizations are changing the rules a bit before they send money to sponsor DX'peditions. I just received this from INDEXA:

Dear INDEXA Member,

For 30 years, the Officers and Board of INDEXA have taken their responsibility to use your dues properly and with good business practices when helping to fund only the rarest and worthiest DXpeditions. It has always been our goal to use your contributions to the greatest advantage to the worldwide DX community.

Because we are diligent about our screening process in analyzing requests for funding, we are adding another condition that must be met by DXpeditions requesting our financial help. This additional condition is a part of the INDEXA DXpedition Support section on the INDEXA web site www.indexa.org.

The DXpedition must respond affirmatively to the following statement. Otherwise, their request will be denied. Your dues will be used only to support those DXpeditions that share our views about the correct uses of contributed funds.

Here is the statement:

"INDEXA believes that funds contributed to a DXpedition should be used only for that purpose. If there is a surplus of funds after a DXpedition is completed, a refund should be made, using some logical approach, to help offset the personal expenses incurred by individual team members and/or returned to the major sponsors. INDEXA is not concerned how the refunds are made, but does believe that any excess funds should not be held by the organizers for other purposes or projects. Do you agree? Yes or No"

As always, you can be confident that your membership dues will be allocated only to those DXpeditions that are well managed and share our long held views about correct DXpedition practices.

Happy New Year to you all,

Gary Dixon, K4MQG

President

Bob Allphin, K4UEE

Chairman"


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: KA1J on January 17, 2013, 07:54:16 PM
Well it looks like some organizations are changing the rules a bit before they send money to sponsor DX'peditions. I just received this from INDEXA:

Dear INDEXA Member,

For 30 years, the Officers and Board of INDEXA have taken their responsibility to use your dues properly and with good business practices when helping to fund only the rarest and worthiest DXpeditions. It has always been our goal to use your contributions to the greatest advantage to the worldwide DX community.

Because we are diligent about our screening process in analyzing requests for funding, we are adding another condition that must be met by DXpeditions requesting our financial help. This additional condition is a part of the INDEXA DXpedition Support section on the INDEXA web site www.indexa.org.

The DXpedition must respond affirmatively to the following statement. Otherwise, their request will be denied. Your dues will be used only to support those DXpeditions that share our views about the correct uses of contributed funds.

Here is the statement:

"INDEXA believes that funds contributed to a DXpedition should be used only for that purpose. If there is a surplus of funds after a DXpedition is completed, a refund should be made, using some logical approach, to help offset the personal expenses incurred by individual team members and/or returned to the major sponsors. INDEXA is not concerned how the refunds are made, but does believe that any excess funds should not be held by the organizers for other purposes or projects. Do you agree? Yes or No"

As always, you can be confident that your membership dues will be allocated only to those DXpeditions that are well managed and share our long held views about correct DXpedition practices.

Happy New Year to you all,

Gary Dixon, K4MQG

President

Bob Allphin, K4UEE

Chairman"


I donated to ZL9HR with what I thought was was going to be a common sense use of the money which to me means it would go to the cost of operations, not the lease hold improvements. To me that means the operation itself had to be covered; the boat, the gas, provisions, applications, all of that. Any extra should be for the members to get compensated. Anything after that is up for grabs but were it "my" DXPedition, I would use that in escrow for the next operation planned and if that became obvious not to happen, then that would be donated to another DXPedition or organization supporting DX efforts.

The way the members of this operation were apparently stiffed has caused me to re-evaluate how I donate, other than my donations to private DXpeditions operating without outside funding. I like the content of the message from INDEXA above and as a consequence, I'm going to join INDEXA and donate extra as an operation comes around they fund and let them be the venue to disperse to the worthy parties. It's a silly waste of time for me to concern myself with the dynamics of an operation I'm not part of. I think this is the most cost effective way for me to actually help get things done and I can stop concerning over the BS I have no control over.

KA1J


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on January 17, 2013, 11:12:05 PM
That is a very strong rebuke of the two HARAOA members of the ZL9HR team by INDEXA.

VK2IR and VK3YP have posted a message on the ZL9HR website. Although a financial accounting was promised to the DX community they have changed their mind and there will no longer be any financials made public.

Here is the latest message from HARAOA:

Thursday, January 17th 2013

ZL9HR Finances

In relation to certain posts on the Internet from ZL9HR team members demanding that HARAOA pay them any surplus money from donation funds. There was never any agreement made between HARAOA and the team members to provide any surplus donation funds to them. The topic of donation funds, providing a financial statement, selling equipment purchased etc. was never raised by the team members in the months before the DXpedition started. This was only raised by the team members once the DXpedition was almost completed.

HARAOA has fulfilled it's obligations to all our sponsors donation requirements.

None of our sponsorship requirements mention anything around providing the financials of the DXpedition or surplus funds to be paid to team members.

In absence of any prior agreement the team members are trying to discredit HARAOA and the successful ZL9HR operation to get their own way. Using their own words "pressure us to change our decision".

Tommy VK2IR and John VK3YP
ZL9HR Team Leaders and organisers.



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: 5B4AIZ on January 18, 2013, 01:19:04 AM
Having promised the Ham Community full details of the financials the Team Leaders are now declaring there will be no publication of any financial details. Having seen this proof of their lying how can their claims of no discussions, verbal agreements etc with the group wrt financial reconciliations have any credibility? Those two really do have the hides of elephants, they have be found out and condemned by their peers but continue to postulate

We may not be able to assist the team to recover what is rightfully theirs but we can thank them for bringing this issue into the public domain and at the same time putting an end to HARAOA, and for the future,  any similar undesirable organisations who would defraud donors and cheat those  contributing willing volunteers who are the very ones that make an expedition successful.

It is my intention to nominate VK2IR and VK3YP for election to 'THE HALL OF SHAME' along with Gus Browning, Danny Weil and of course Romeo Stepenko. That is the type of company they would feel comfortable with. I am certain there will be no shortage of Seconders to that proposal. Oh -- and something else - whenever VK2IR calls me in a contest he will not be getting my multiplier.

73 Brian 5B4AIZ / C4Z.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: WL7E on January 18, 2013, 01:41:43 AM
Hasn't anyone made the connection between VK3FY (DX0DX) and HARAOA yet?

http://www.haraoa.com/2010/04/newly-elected-comittee-for-2010-2011.html

There is a new current Secretary. However in my experience with ham radio clubs it is the Secretary that handles the correspondence, not the Treasurer.

Birds of a feather flock together comes to my mind. At least this time VK2IR's name/call has been put on paper so to speak. And to think they honestly thought they were a contender for Dxpedition of the Year. I seriously doubt they are ever able to mount a serious dxpedition again not to mention if they do go somewhere will anyone even call them.

I would vote them for President and Treasurer of the DX Hall of Shame without hesitation.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: AF3Y on January 18, 2013, 04:42:53 AM
Just wondering, how can a non profit organization be allowed to make a profit on a venture? (IF they did actually make a profit)

Someone above noted Gus Browning.  I worked for Gus at his radio station, WORG, in Orangeburg, SC. Gus was a great guy.  Not sure why he would be in the "Hall of Shame"........

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: W5JON on January 18, 2013, 05:35:39 AM
None of our sponsorship requirements mention anything around providing the financials of the DXpedition or surplus funds to be paid to team members.

In absence of any prior agreement the team members are trying to discredit HARAOA and the successful ZL9HR operation to get their own way. Using their own words "pressure us to change our decision".

Tommy VK2IR and John VK3YP
ZL9HR Team Leaders and organisers.




I would have thought that VK2IR and VK3YP would have figured out by now that they are in a very deep hole, and would be smart enough to stop digging.

73,

John W5JON



Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on January 18, 2013, 07:27:42 AM
Just wondering, how can a non profit organization be allowed to make a profit on a venture? (IF they did actually make a profit)

Someone above noted Gus Browning.  I worked for Gus at his radio station, WORG, in Orangeburg, SC. Gus was a great guy.  Not sure why he would be in the "Hall of Shame"........

73, Gene AF3Y
Hi Gene,

The only real difference between a non-profit and a for-profit is a non-profit must retain any excess revenue (profit) to further the goals of the organization, whereas a for-profit has the option of paying out a dividend to stochholders.

I'm sure you know of, or have done business with, a hospital run by a non-profit organization.  Their fees may still be set so they make a profit and they are able to pay employees competitive pay packages but since they are not paying dividends to stockholders they don't pay taxes.  Nevertheless, they can still get very big by accumulating annual profits tax free.  It's a system which can be abused by those simply looking to avoid taxes.
Many non-profits have executives making salaries of over $1 million a year. I'm thinking of hospitals and universites.

HARAOA could still be a non-profit and use the profit from the ZL9HR expedition to help pay for their next trip. There likely will not be a next trip but they can use the funds to buy equipment which is probably the reason they are so steadfast to keep the profit in their club.

Many years ago there was a scandal with the Red Cross - a non-profit group- as their CEO was making a large salary and had access to a limousine and all the other luxuries a big for-profit would have.

The bottom line is a non-profit can still make a profit but it must be retained in the organization.


73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: VK3YP on January 20, 2013, 10:04:44 PM
http://vk9nt.odxg.org/team/Norfolk%20Island%202013%20Team%20Member%20Agreement.pdf

In addition to the $5000 input costs zl9hr team members did not pay - we didn't ask a cent for "lifetime membership of haraoa" of $200 per team member - another $1,600 for a haraoa organised event.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: ES1TU on January 21, 2013, 01:21:13 AM
we didn't ask a cent for "lifetime membership of haraoa" of $200 per team member

VK2IR, VK3YP - every time my brain filters out a word "hellenic" or "greek" - I suspect there's some kind of scam in the air.

This is quite an achievement, congrats!

It's amazing how low would some people go for few thousand bucks and I'm impressed it was worth the damage you have done to SV reputation.
At least in my books.


Title: RE: ZL9HR money?
Post by: NU1O on January 21, 2013, 07:31:06 AM
In an older message I brought up the fact it was the Greeks who created Democracy since I found it ironic two members of HARAOA with seemingly Greek ancestry were doing as they pleased with the ZL9HR donations while the other eight members opposed. That seemed more dictatorial than democratic to me.

I do not think it is fair to paint all Greeks with one brush due to the actions of two whom I believe to be currently Australian by nationality and Greek through their ancestors. The Greeks are like any other nationality.  Most are very hard working honest people. Every nationality has some bad apples so let us not blame a whole nationality for the actions of two.

73,

Chris/NU1O