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eHam Forums => Amplifiers => Topic started by: K6AER on January 02, 2013, 07:51:46 AM



Title: Dedicated RF
Post by: K6AER on January 02, 2013, 07:51:46 AM
Notice; I Michael Higgins no longer have any involvement, engineering or consulting with AN Wireless, AKA Dedicated RF.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 02, 2013, 10:41:27 AM
To expand on this a bit further, Mike was not able to allocate the time to the current engineering project, because of existing work & home responsibilities, in order to complete the project in the required time frame.

For this reason and a couple of others, I had to make the very difficult decision to let Mike go.

A public forum really isn't the place for this, however I felt it necessary to add to this, as the initial post would appear as somewhat negative otherwise.

Dan Simmonds


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W1QJ on January 02, 2013, 11:35:20 AM
We have been waiting for the new 8877 roller inductor amp to  hit the market.  Now with this news, when can we expect to see this amp?


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 02, 2013, 11:46:29 AM
Hi Louis,

There's been no delay - I have already hired a new RF & firmware engineer as of mid-month (last month) who can focus 40-hours per week at this.

Details will be in the January emailed newsletter.

To answer your question - the aim is 2Q or 3Q 2013 to begin beta testing & FCC type acceptance. I hope to have production a reality 1Q 2014, barring any surprise issues.

FYI - I am looking for an App developer experienced in Amateur Radio Graphical User Interface design.

Dan Simmonds


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 02, 2013, 02:44:25 PM
A new tube amp in the year 2013. Why?


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: WB2WIK on January 02, 2013, 03:15:46 PM
A new tube amp in the year 2013. Why?

I don't know the answer, but from a marketing perspective I'd rather sell thousands of inexpensive units than a small number of very expensive ones.  Ford makes a lot of profit, Lamborghini doesn't. ;)


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W6UV on January 02, 2013, 08:46:27 PM
A public forum really isn't the place for this

Then why did you do it here? Mike's post was neutral -- he basically said he was no longer affiliated with your company. Then you had to jump in and say he was fired. Tacky, tacky.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 03, 2013, 12:10:07 AM
W6UV: Perhaps neutral to some, not so to others. It takes a 6th and sometimes 7th sense to identify what others could read into a statement, and then diffuse that statement before it morphs into an issue. For instance, many would view that opening statement (as I did) and immediately read much more into it - because such a blatant statement comes across to some as leaving the reader with the feeling there's an issue with the employer (me), or company troubles, etc. This fact was perhaps not taken into consideration when it was initially posted. It takes a very wide sense of peripheral vision to see the potential in something like this. As I stated initially, it was a very difficult decision to me to have made. Had the initial comment not been posted, it would have all remained silent.

After these kinds of threads go on for a few days, I usually wind up getting a few emails from those that really do understand this.

The Ford vs Lamborghini concept. We've all seen what happens when a company focuses strictly on "thousands of inexpensive units" versus a small number of expensive ones. Niche companies producing a very small number of an item - produced perfect every time - can far surpass the bulk manufacturers in terms of profit *if* that niche company is run clean and perfectly efficient, with an abundance of QC. I personally did this for 10+ years, and am taking that identical approach again with the company named in this thread.

Dan Simmonds


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 03, 2013, 05:39:32 AM
The RF Concepts Alpha 9500 uses one 3CX1500A7 and is rated for 1500 watts key down with no time limit. The Alpha 9510 is a "commercial" version. Both amps use a 35 lb transformer. I suspect these amps will run 2500 watts in OOK CW and SSB. The new amp in development (see link below) uses two 3CX1500A7 tubes and a 76 lb transformer in the export model. Is this to provide a huge margin or is it aimed at the ham who intends to run 5 kW?

http://www.dedicatedrf.com/

The RF Concepts Alpha 4400 autotuner is rated for 4000 watts but is said to be "a little bit conservative." Who needs a 4 kW tuner but someone who intends to run considerably over the US power limit?


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 03, 2013, 08:02:56 AM
Hi Dave,

The intent here (with us) is to produce this amplifier 100% in parallel for Amateur Service / Commercial / Government, etc, with only firmware changes for frequency lock / unlock. Hence the variable inductor tunable from about 1500 kHz and up.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KA5N on January 03, 2013, 08:41:24 AM
This whole blurb is commercial in nature and until some piece of ham gear is for sale or at least advertised, it has nothing to do with Amateur Radio and is taking up space better used for legitimate posts.

Allen KA5N


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K8AXW on January 03, 2013, 09:24:16 AM
KK3AN - Dan - Since you are THE man, which makes the first time I've ever seen someone in your position available to answer a question, I'd like to ask one.

As WIK pointed out, why doesn't your company build a simple and reliable amplifier for the "masses?"  I'm sure there are thousands out there that would like to have an amplifier that can be worked on; can be repaired not only today but 20 years from now.  Like the old Heath amps. 

I understand that some tube amps require, no, demand grid protection but anything else simply becomes a PITA and precludes repairs in the future if the company goes out of business or "no longer has parts."

I get so damned tired of looking at gear that costs in excess of $2KBs!  Please don't point out MFJ.  We are all familiar with MFJ gear and their QC problems and if nothing else, their 'looks.'

Modern technology has outstripped most amateur ops abilities to do even simple repairs to their gear.  And the prices required to pay for this advanced technology continues to climb.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 03, 2013, 09:54:07 AM
Amateur use of the new two 3CX1500A7 tube amp, which will surely be used to violate the US amateur power limit and to cheat in HF contests, could be discouraged by not obtaining FCC type acceptance for amateur service.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W8JX on January 03, 2013, 10:01:42 AM
Amateur use of the new two 3CX1500A7 tube amp, which will surely be used to violate the US amateur power limit and to cheat in HF contests, could be discouraged by not obtaining FCC type acceptance for amateur service.

True but not likely. I saw a 8kw amp sample a Hamvention 2 years. They would have had buyers if it was available. The legal limit is obviously ignored by many and demand for higher power is therefore a "niche" some builders try to fill. When is last time you heard someone busted over it?


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K2CMH on January 03, 2013, 10:08:45 AM
From a design and production point of view, I can certainly understand why they would want to build a single amplifier that serves multiple markets, however, it would seem that the people in the 'lower' market (ie, hams) are paying a lot of extra money for capabilities (ie, more power) that they are not legally able to take advantage of.  I do not have any idea how much the extra tube (and supporting circuitry) and the beefier transformer required for dual tubes adds to the cost, but I'm willing to be it is not inconsequential.

Carlton


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3QE on January 03, 2013, 10:09:21 AM
This whole blurb is commercial in nature and until some piece of ham gear is for sale or at least advertised, it has nothing to do with Amateur Radio and is taking up space better used for legitimate posts.

When the equipment doesn't even exist, isn't it more like a bunch of guys who can't get a date just sitting around and discussing what "the perfect girl" would be? As if they'd ever touched one?

Hard to complain about it being commercial in nature when the amp doesn't exist. But I do agree it seems pretty pointless, it's easier for me to be grounded in reality of an amp I actully own (even if it isn't "the perfect amp" that's better than any actual amp that ever existed.)


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: G3RZP on January 03, 2013, 10:13:17 AM
Start talking much over 2 kW, and you have the electricity bill and the supply to consider. At 8kW out, antennas and coax are another world, plus you really need a 3 phase supply. Especially if the dishwasher, washing machine, clothes drier, A/C and cook stove are going to be on  at the same time.

Starts getting very expensive.....


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W6UV on January 03, 2013, 10:19:22 AM
W6UV: Perhaps neutral to some, not so to others. It takes a 6th and sometimes 7th sense to identify what others could read into a statement, and then diffuse that statement before it morphs into an issue.

Perhaps, but things like this can also morph into a larger issue if you go out of your way to call attention to them. Google "Streisand effect".


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 03, 2013, 11:33:35 AM
Wow guys. Let me start from the top (sigh)....

KA5N: There's no intent (on my part) in making this commercial in nature. If someone asks me a question, however I will answer it (though I'd much prefer this in private email or over the phone for the reason you mentioned).

K8AXW: This will in fact be "for the masses", by today's standards. I personally prefer simple gear / vehicles or anything just as much as you, but to be competitive today, you just can't launch a new product that's viewed (by the masses) as being a dinosaur. In my position, it would be a lot less painful to just roll up $100 bills and burn them. I am working at ways to mitigate the issues you describe by adding as much 'modularaity' into this as possible, because I do agree with your point very much, to the extent that I reasonably can.

WX7G:  Nowhere is it stated (my me) the 2x8877 will be available in the US for Amateurs. Where were you made aware of this? This is *exactly* how false rumors begin and spread like fire. Please appreciate that. It's like what I stated earlier - these are the posts which have a tendency to create repercussions....people could easily take your words to think (and repeat to others) completely false things like "Dedicated RF sells illegal amps to the US market", because that's exactly how your post sounds. Our 1x8877 will indeed be type accepted (of course). Please consider the repercussions of how something you say about me will be read and understood by someone (in a very false sense).

N3QE: I agree. Because this project is taking such a tremendous amount of time, I felt it best to provide tidbits of information / updates, etc as they become available. The general reaction to this is actually very positive.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N6AJR on January 03, 2013, 01:31:52 PM
To address the "power issue", I could see having a 4 or 5 KW amp in the shack. WHY?. because it should last me for the rest of my ham radio life, and then some.  I have an 87 a and use it about half the time on contests and dxing. It will do some 2k or 2.2k when tuned into a dummy load  at max grid current. I typically use it at around 1000 watts when I use it at all. I used to have several ameritron 811 and 811h amps and to run those at max output in a contest would literally cause the meter in the case to overheat, and a friend even had the meter melt in his 811 in a contest. now running my alpha 87 a at 1000 watts all day only makes the case get slightly warm.  so if I want to run a legal limit 1500 watt rtty signal in a high demand contest, then 1500 watts would be just running in its "comfort zone" and would last years and years as it would not be stressed.

If I wanted a "high power " amp to exceed legal limit,  I could always buy a DAVE MADE or SWEET 16 CB amp in the 5k range for much less .  Most of us follow the rules,  its the honor system for ham radio.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 03, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Then there some of us that have wealthy brothers in California just waiting to send  the poor brother a Henry 8K  haa haaa. Happy New's Years Tom


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K0ZN on January 03, 2013, 10:38:55 PM
One CAN design an extremely reliable amplifier that limits output to 1,500 watts. It is an engineering design CHOICE not to do that !!
i.e.  You car does NOT have to be capable of 200 mph to be extremely reliable at 70 mph !! One does NOT need a "reserve" of 130 mph in the vehicle!
..... Amps are no different.... The "reserve" thing is a red herring/diversion by the sellers. To wit: If someone made and tried to market an amp with
THREE 3CX1500's ("just to assure adequate plate dissipation reserve...") but it could only put out 1,500 watts almost nobody would buy it...... but if it will put
out X2 the legal limit there would be a market for it.

 Lets be honest here.... there always has been, and always will be, those those who have to feed their ego via possession of physical goods....  
We see it daily in expensive cars, airplanes, boats, vacations, mansion homes and equipment in ham shacks. This type of human behavior has been
going on for centuries. This is a HOBBY.   Nobody NEEDS an amp that will run "multiple KW's"; some people WANT an amp that will do that.
Again:  One can easily design an extremely reliable amplifier that will not be capable of wildly exceeding the legal limit. (FYI: If you are an amplifier
manufacturer and don't know how to accomplish this, please give me a call !!  My consulting rates are very low !!  ....chuckle....)
  

73,  K0ZN


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W1QJ on January 04, 2013, 04:10:09 AM
Dan, about  2 months  ago Myself and Steve W1SMS took over Lunar Link after the unfortunate passing of K1FO.  I can view the ham amplifier business as you do because now we sit side by side.  All our units 6, 2, 220, and 432 are all based around a pair of 3CX800's or 3CPX800's.  WIth  the proper  options the amps are rated at 1500 watts for extended service.  Naturally we considered the solid state issue at that power level and ones alternative.  I could see where the departure of choice may be eliminated in your favor if your amp for most likely a lesser price can easily beat out a solid state unit at 2X the power output.  Certainly from a business point of view such a decision is commendable although may not be viewed  the same by those not sitting in our seats.  Lou


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 04, 2013, 05:52:05 AM
KK3AN, this is what makes me say the two tube amp is destined for the amateur market.

http://www.dedicatedrf.com/

This describes a one and a two tube amplifier for the amateur market. Yes it says the two tube version is the export model. The two tube amp will be sold only to amateur radio operators in foreign countries.

So I stand corrected. I should not have implied that RF Concepts intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to the US market, I should have said that RF Concepts intends to the tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to foreign markets.







Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W8JX on January 04, 2013, 07:35:54 AM
So I stand corrected. I should not have implied that RF Concepts intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to the US market, I should have said that RF Concepts intends to the tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to foreign markets.

And what prevents them from going out front door to foreign markets and returning via the back door to US market. In way you can blame FCC for rules that allow this and lack of enforcement.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 08:31:25 AM
Hi Lou,

Interesting - I was wondering what had happened to that line. Congrats on picking that up and running with it. Ironically I was just discussing Lunar Link with someone yesterday.

A couple months back I sold my entire inventory of the 800A7's (all 113 of them) and opted to go with the 8877.

Best of luck, and keep in touch.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 08:33:36 AM
WX7G....RF Concepts?

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K0CWO on January 04, 2013, 08:52:03 AM
Maybe we should make everything illegal!  I find it interesting that a portion of our society is bent on wanting to limit just about everything. All because a minority of that society willfully chooses to break existing rules, ignores common sense, or defies common decency.  Look at what good the 11 meter "omission" rule for amateur amplifiers has done.  If one implies that a twin 8877 amplifier is designed with other than legal intentions regardless of market, then the same could be said of a currently in production and FCC certified single 8877 Ameritron AL-1500.  There are quite a few certified amplifiers on the market that readily exceed the speed limit.  Speaking of speed limit.  Maybe we should urge our legislators to pass legislation to develop technology to where cars and trucks are no longer able to exceed posted speed limits.  What a wonderful pork project that would be in our already "broke" country.  I grew up in Europe where you just about have to ask the government permission to wipe your behind.  Being overly sarcastic; Is that really what self reliant, responsible, and decent Americans want for themselves?

In the mean time I'm going to make sure that I live my life with decency, common sense, and responsibility without unduly limiting others as a result of my opinions or actions regarding freedom.

I am concerned with a society who's leaders dictate what light bulbs are acceptable for use.  Maybe the individual citizen cannot be trusted to make very basic and totally harmless choices anymore.              


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W8JX on January 04, 2013, 09:01:50 AM
Maybe we should make everything illegal!  I find it interesting that a portion of our society is bent on wanting to limit just about everything. All because a minority of that society willfully chooses to break existing rules, ignores common sense, or defies common decency.  Look at what good the 11 meter "omission" rule for amateur amplifiers has done.  If one implies that a twin 8877 amplifier is designed with other than legal intentions regardless of market, then the same could be said of a currently in production and FCC certified single 8877 Ameritron AL-1500.  There are quite a few certified amplifiers on the market that readily exceed the speed limit.  Speaking of speed limit.  Maybe we should urge our legislators to pass legislation to develop technology to where cars and trucks are no longer able to exceed posted speed limits.  What a wonderful pork project that would be in our already "broke" country.  I grew up in Europe where you just about have to ask the government permission to wipe your behind.  Being overly sarcastic; Is that really what self reliant, responsible, and decent Americans want for themselves?

In the mean time I'm going to make sure that I live my life with decency, common sense, and responsibility without unduly limiting others as a result of my opinions or actions regarding freedom.

I am concerned with a society who's leaders dictate what light bulbs are acceptable for use.  Maybe the individual citizen cannot be trusted to make very basic and totally harmless choices anymore.              

Then what you suggest is no rules at all and that power should be limited only by what you can afford. There are countries where you can easily do this but then other liberties are compromised.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: AA4HA on January 04, 2013, 09:08:34 AM
So I stand corrected. I should not have implied that RF Concepts intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to the US market, I should have said that RF Concepts intends to the tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to foreign markets.

How do we know that the power will be illegal in a foreign market? That is entirely dependent upon their laws.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W5JON on January 04, 2013, 09:14:01 AM
A couple months back I sold my entire inventory of the 800A7's (all 113 of them) and opted to go with the 8877.

Best of luck, and keep in touch.

Dan

Hi Dan,

As you know, no matter what your final product, there will be a "ham" that will tell you he could have/would have, designed/built it, bigger, smaller, manual, auto, faster, more power, less power, use one tube, use two tubes, to this IMD spec, etc, etc, etc.  

However, very few are like you, and willing to put your money on the line. I guess it always comes down to "the talkers" and "the doers".

Good luck with what ever you and your company decide to produce.

73,

John  W5JON  


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K0CWO on January 04, 2013, 09:16:49 AM
No.  That is not what I am suggesting.  The existing rules are deemed acceptable by most of us.  Seems to me that 1500 watts is plenty for hobby purposes.  Also seems that 1500 watts has worked for us since the rules changed a while ago.  What one can afford has nothing to do with what one can and in some cases unfortunately will do.  Law and order is a necessary ingredient for most societies.  I am not sure what "other" countries you are referring to but all I am saying is: "leave well enough alone".  

Don't worry about what others are doing or could be doing; worry about what YOU are doing with respect to reasonable law and order.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K8AXW on January 04, 2013, 09:29:00 AM
Dan:  Thank your for your time and reply.  You apparently have a different viewpoint on what the "masses" are. 

Modules are a great way to provide repairs and service for a piece of gear.  I recall the first time this concept was initiated.  It was a TV set.  That idea fell flat on it's face.  It seemed that folks felt cheated when they had their modules replaced by recycled modules with "used" components.

They also felt ripped off when they had to buy a module when a simple component needed to be replaced.  Even when bench repair costs were factored in. 

Then they really felt ripped off when modules were no longer available for their 5 year old TV set!

And this is where we are with the present day ham amplifiers.  Modules are great, for the manufacturer but not for the consumer.  Modules become outdated and usually contain componets that are "unobtainable" within a few years.  Then the ham is left with a very expensive and beautiful dust collector.

It's no wonder 30 year old Heath amplifiers continue to bring top dollar on eBay and hamfests!

However, I do wish you great success Dan.  Doing what your are attempting to do would be like trying to eat a chicken leg surrounded by hungry wolves!


Al - K8AXW


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 04, 2013, 10:38:26 AM
Dan:  Thank your for your time and reply.  You apparently have a different viewpoint on what the "masses" are. 

Modules are a great way to provide repairs and service for a piece of gear.  I recall the first time this concept was initiated.  It was a TV set.  That idea fell flat on it's face.  It seemed that folks felt cheated when they had their modules replaced by recycled modules with "used" components.

They also felt ripped off when they had to buy a module when a simple component needed to be replaced.  Even when bench repair costs were factored in. 

Then they really felt ripped off when modules were no longer available for their 5 year old TV set!

And this is where we are with the present day ham amplifiers.  Modules are great, for the manufacturer but not for the consumer.  Modules become outdated and usually contain componets that are "unobtainable" within a few years.  Then the ham is left with a very expensive and beautiful dust collector.

It's no wonder 30 year old Heath amplifiers continue to bring top dollar on eBay and hamfests!

However, I do wish you great success Dan.  Doing what your are attempting to do would be like trying to eat a chicken leg surrounded by hungry wolves!


Al - K8AXW


Al i not sure i completely understand your post here. First why couldn't you still replace just a component  in/on any module ?

Second , What to say rather it a complete module or simply a single component that the part may or may not be available in the future?

Third , Manufactures such as Flex i believe using this same modular construction / fabrication correct ?

Lastly , Even the the old Heath's  have components that are not exact replacements today but we have and can adapt other part's to them to keep them running. I feel fairly certain Dan could not guarantee the availability of any single part used in the construction of his amp designs would never become unobtainable. The manufacturers design and sell  there products  as market demands. And these demands change over time. This problem would effect any electronic device ever made. I know i never be able to afford one Dan's amp's , God knows i would love to have one but economics will prevent that. However I give him credit if he and his team can produce a high quality piece of equipment then great i wish them all the best in luck in there pursuits.   But i personally see merit in his idea's.... Jeff


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 10:44:29 AM
Hi Al,

You're welcome.

Your point is absolutely square on target - and I agree. What I meant by using the term 'modularity' was simply having whole board-level replacement, in lieu of component level replacement.

You are the rare breed kind of guy, which I say at the best possible level. You and I are being outnumbered by the 1000's though...by the teenagers who prefer texting instead of learning to solder, etc etc. This phenomenon only goes in one direction, and although hams will always be more able to component-level repair than the general population, fewer and fewer are actually doing it.

So I must look way down the interstate to try and understand how (and who) will be servicing my amplifiers in 10, 20, 30 years from now, if people decide to do this themselves, and I must go with the manufacturing processes which are in their ascendancy today, instead of those in decendancy.

Your TV set repair example is good. My only thought there would be I would think that today, people are much more adept to the idea of modularity repair in products than in the 70's, 80's and 90's. As you know, it's even gone so far now as to replace an entire device if something goes bad - an example of this would be an iPhone, when the battery goes bad. Most cannot replace this battery, so they plunk down cash for a whole new device.

Thanks for your comments.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Hi Jon / W5JON,

That's appreciated - thank you.

It's good to read past all the negativity that sometimes comes from discussions like this, because a lot of times it provides good clues as to what people really want / expect, etc.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W8JX on January 04, 2013, 11:27:32 AM
an example of this would be an iPhone, when the battery goes bad. Most cannot replace this battery, so they plunk down cash for a whole new device.

This is to make device non user serviceable to maximize profits and make you by a new phone rather than simply swap battery, no other reason.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 11:35:50 AM
"This is to make device non user serviceable to maximize profits and make you by a new phone rather than simply swap battery, no other reason."

---

That may be part of it - though this is done also to make the device considerably smaller in size. Eliminating a battery bay (compartment) and a cover / door allows the device to be made smaller, and also allows the battery itself to be larger. There are manufacturer's videos available explaining this rationale.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 04, 2013, 12:39:28 PM
KK3AN, this is what makes me say the two tube amp is destined for the amateur market.

http://www.dedicatedrf.com/

This describes a one and a two tube amplifier for the amateur market. Yes it says the two tube version is the export model. The two tube amp will be sold only to amateur radio operators in foreign countries.

So I stand corrected. I should not have implied that Dedicated RF intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to the US market, I should have said that Dedicated RF intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to foreign markets.




Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K9DMV on January 04, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
Dan - KK3AN

Where Eimac did 113 of the 800A7's end up. I would like to purchase 2 of them as spares for my legacy amp.


Best,


Joe  -  K9DMV


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 12:53:38 PM


So I stand corrected. I should not have implied that Dedicated RF intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to the US market, I should have said that Dedicated RF intends to sell the two tube amplifier capable of running illegal power to foreign markets.



[/quote]


Dave,

By actually going to the effort of wording this the way you have, you're trying to stir up trouble. I can see that, and so can everyone else.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 12:54:38 PM
Hi Joe,

Richardson Electronics of LaFox, IL.

Dan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 04, 2013, 03:50:54 PM
I am intrigued by ethics and this thread provides an ethical issue that could be important to DXers and contesters. The ethical issue begins with producing and marketing very high power RF amplifiers intended for foreign amateur radio operators and ends with the consequences.

The branch of ethics that (so far) I think best addresses this is Consequentialism, specifically negative consequentialism.

Negative consequentialism requires that bad consequences be avoided. Two possible bad consequences of selling high power RF amplifiers to foreign amateur radio operators are they may violate their licensed power limit and they may cheat in contests. Providing such amplifiers enables these bad consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 04, 2013, 04:11:37 PM
I am intrigued by ethics and this thread provides an ethical issue that could be important to DXers and contesters. The ethical issue begins with producing and marketing very high power RF amplifiers intended for foreign amateur radio operators and ends with the consequences.

The branch of ethics that (so far) I think best addresses this is Consequentialism, specifically negative consequentialism.

Negative consequentialism requires that bad consequences be avoided. Two possible bad consequences of selling high power RF amplifiers to foreign amateur radio operators are they may violate their licensed power limit and they may cheat in contests. Providing such amplifiers enables these bad consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism


Asinine  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asinine

To me that last post was indeed Asinine


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: AJ3O on January 04, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
Dan,

Congratulations and good luck on this business venture.

You truly handle yourself like a professional and all around good guy. I feel that anyone with a bit of common sense that has read through the last few pages of this thread will be sending their orders your way.

@N3JBH: You, my friend, owe me a new HT!

Well...... I'll settle for some paper towels to replace the few that I had to use cleaning up the coffee off of the HT and my desk?  ;D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 04, 2013, 04:35:53 PM
Dan,

Congratulations and good luck on this business venture.

You truly handle yourself like a professional and all around good guy. I feel that anyone with a bit of common sense that has read through the last few pages of this thread will be sending their orders your way.

@N3JBH: You, my friend, owe me a new HT!

Well...... I'll settle for some paper towels to replace the few that I had to use cleaning up the coffee off of the HT and my desk?  ;D
Fair enough  ;D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KK3AN on January 04, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Dave / WX7G

I'll tell you (what was once) a secret....

The core intent is to not focus this product primarily to the Amateur Service, but rather the Amateur Service be a sideline (to Government / Land Based Aviation, etc etc). This is pretty much why the website does not appear as being worded fully towards hams.

Partial evidence of this is:

1) Tunable from well below 160m (approx 1500 Khz in the AM band) and continuously to 51 / 52 Mhz (including lower VHF from 30-50 Mhz). (Right now the spectrum above 30 is preliminary). Freq. locked for hams per FCC.

2) No (serious) consideration given to blower noise - realizing this will likely not be placed immediately next to an operator in most cases.

3) An amplifier "case" completely clean of knobs / buttons / meters, etc - with only a "red" and "green" LED which can be viewed by a video camera at some remote location in a concrete shelter, and able to be controlled at a 100% virtual level via ethernet.

4) Two (2) active blowers in each amp - with a 3rd intake muffin fan - considering both high ambient temperature (again the concrete shelter - hotter than the average ham shack) and also at elevation (where air is thin and air pressure is reduced).

5) A 76 LB main transformer designed for real 100% CCS. No derating.

6) Little (under 10%) consideration is being given to overall size or weight, or frankly, cost. The design will dictate each of these. My goals - subject to change - right now are under 150 LBS and under $8,500 to the customer (the final product could weigh more and cost more, but I doubt it).

7) No lightning fast band changes (due to the mechanical inductor tank design). Band changes will take time - a lot of time going from 160m to 10m.

My apologies if this comes across as commercial in nature, but this seemed necessary to provide the argument that we're certainly not out to supply foreign contesters with a 5KW amp.

AJ3O - I appreciate your comments very much. Thank you.

Dan Simmonds


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: AJ3O on January 04, 2013, 08:42:44 PM
Dan,

You are welcome.

Jeff,

I'll stop by  for those paper towels.... Hi hi Just kidding. :D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 04, 2013, 09:08:51 PM
Joe i bring then to the next Sky view ham fest  :D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W1QJ on January 05, 2013, 03:31:41 AM
Hi Lou,

Interesting - I was wondering what had happened to that line. Congrats on picking that up and running with it. Ironically I was just discussing Lunar Link with someone yesterday.

A couple months back I sold my entire inventory of the 800A7's (all 113 of them) and opted to go with the 8877.

Best of luck, and keep in touch.

Dan

Thanks Dan, check out the updated website   www.lunarlink.com   Yes, my partner in the company is Steve W1SMS who did business with Steve K1FO and was personal friends with Steve and his wife.  After Steve passed his wife relied heavily on Steve  SMS to help with  what to do with Lunar Link.  Steve asked me about my thoughts on taking over and I was all for it.  It's been a major job moving the equipment and all the stock of parts and setting up the manufacturing stock room etc.  However we are now assembling power supplies to get our feet wet then we will tackle the decks.  Steve is a 30 year veteran of plasma and sputtering generators so manufacturing is nothing new to him.  We were surprised to see that K1FO had accounts with an Australian company who does cancer treatment, low and behold they have contacted us with an order for a unit.  So it looks like this venture will prove interesting.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W9GB on January 05, 2013, 06:39:30 AM
This hyperlink for the "new" Lunar-Link works (and searchable ia Google).
http://home.cshore.com/lunarlink/



Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 05, 2013, 09:00:53 AM
Dan, the link describing the two tube amp is aimed squarely at the amateur radio market.

http://www.dedicatedrf.com/

I see I have to be direct and ask you "does Dedicated RF intend to sell the two tube 8877 amplifier to foreign amateur radio operators, yes or no?"


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K8AXW on January 05, 2013, 09:48:33 AM
JBH:

Quote
Quote
Al i not sure i completely understand your post here. First why couldn't you still replace just a component  in/on any module ?

Sure, no problem with that..... unless the module contains proprietary components that become obsolete or unobtainable AND the ham trying to repair the amp has the expertise to trouble shoot the amp to start with.  This has become more and more difficult with the increased complexity of these modules. 

Quote
Second , What to say rather it a complete module or simply a single component that the part may or may not be available in the future?

Exactly my point.  At some point the ham community is going to wake up and find they own equipment that is very expensive and unrepairable.

Quote
Lastly , Even the the old Heath's  have components that are not exact replacements today but we have and can adapt other part's to them to keep them running. I feel fairly certain Dan could not guarantee the availability of any single part used in the construction of his amp designs would never become unobtainable. The manufacturers design and sell  there products  as market demands. And these demands change over time. This problem would effect any electronic device ever made. I know i never be able to afford one Dan's amp's , God knows i would love to have one but economics will prevent that. However I give him credit if he and his team can produce a high quality piece of equipment then great i wish them all the best in luck in there pursuits.   But i personally see merit in his idea's.... Jeff

Again, my point exactly!  I think I would be safe in saying that Heath amplifers are seldom repaired with the original parts, unless they turn up on eBay.  However, my point was that the Heath amplifiers CAN be repaired with substitute parts because the parts are very basic and will probably be always available.  This the beauty in a BASIC amplifier!  Amplifers today have morphed into very complex devices and have rapidly outstripped the average hams ability to repair them. 

If you reread my question you will see that I was asking, "why not a basic amplifer for the masses that can be repaired 20-30 years from now?"  I do understand the need or desire for something new and nice, which translates to idiot proof and has a lot of bells and whistles to amuse the owner....and of course to meet the demands of the more affluent.

Your statement, "God knows I would love to have one...." is another point I was making.  People like you and I can no longer afford to buy most of the present day amateur gear because it's so damned complex which increases  the cost and practically eliminates any chance of the average ham fixing his own gear. Repair work outside the shack has also become exceedingly expensive because of this complexity.

It's now getting to the point many "hams" don't even know how to hook their new megabuck gear up, let alone make it work!


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: WB2WIK on January 05, 2013, 10:20:03 AM
I doubt I'll ever buy an $8500 amplifier unless inflation gets so bad that a loaf of bread costs $20; however I see no harm in very big amplifiers being sold to hams.

Dating back to the old Alpha 77SX days (dual 8877s, lots of them out there) through the Henry 8K and many other pretty big amps, I've never felt the need to complain about any of them, or anyone using them.  I doubt anyone ever won a contest because he ran illegal power; it takes a lot more than that to win contests.  When operating from some large M/M stations, I've had the experience of an amp kicking off line and not noticing (headphones on, can't hear anything except the receiver) for hours, with no change in hourly contact rates. ;)



Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: M0HCN on January 05, 2013, 11:21:37 AM
I am not really convinced by the 'modern kit is too complex to fix' argument, I mean sure the techniques have changed, VHDL toolchains instead of bench drills and VTVMs for example, but ultimately if you can figure out how the thing works (And radios really are not that complicated) you can usually bodge up a replacement for an unavailable part.

Sure if you loose a custom LCD panel or big ASIC the repair can be a pain and can end up with a rig that looks a little Frankenstein, but end of the day, a DDS is in some ways simpler then a good VFO, a mixer is a mixer and most SSPA strips are pretty similar. 

Move the DSP to a small embedded board if the custom DSP is unavailable, given the rate of progress in computer power your little embedded board probably stomps the rigs original DSP anyway.

The big pain is not the parts, it is the diagrams, and the source code (Including the HDL source code), really the two should be included in the documentation if the rig is to be considered properly fixable.

In reality I have to question the extent to which self repair was practiced on any kit more modern then the 1960s, my instinct is that most folks took rigs to a repair shop, and this has not changed significantly. 

The cost in any product is generally NOT the small signal electronics, you can design a lot of that in with only a very small effect on the per unit cost, it is the metalwork and the power stuff that really costs, and that never gets much cheaper, so I can see an argument for throwing electronics at the problem if it adds features without significantly impacting the overall unit cost.

KK3AN: You might want to think about a set of relay contacts brought out for 'alarm' monitoring outputs, or if the thing talks TCP/IP anyway maybe SNMP? For the rack of amplifiers in a lights out rack room somewhere, both are extremely useful.

73 Dan (Who considers 'No user serviceable parts inside' to be a challenge).


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: W5JON on January 05, 2013, 12:13:00 PM
Dan, the link describing the two tube amp is aimed squarely at the amateur radio market.

http://www.dedicatedrf.com/

I see I have to be direct and ask you "does Dedicated RF intend to sell the two tube 8877 amplifier to foreign amateur radio operators, yes or no?"

WX7G,

Dan has been very courteous and obliging to your rant, please, please give it a rest.

73,

John


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 05, 2013, 12:16:17 PM


And  K8AXW i ask you what devices do you know of that will positively still be here in 20 to 30 years ? That was one my points. What device would you use for say the tube or transistor that you be certain would still be here? Being basic would it still use through hole components? Times are a changing and while i agree there probably could be some one out there that could build a amplifier for the "masses"  I am not sure it have any provenience over the Ameritron amp's that are already available.

So i am a bit curious what would you suggest or recommend for such a amplifier?  What devices would you use for the finals ?What would you suggest be a great starting price for this  new amplifier that could be designed for the masses? And last what would it bring to the market that is equal to or better then any thing that is already available?  


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: M0HCN on January 05, 2013, 01:15:08 PM
If I was to try a 20 year repairable amp, I guess I would probably use 50V LDMOS, because much of it is more or less interchangeable and there is a ton of it out there, MRF151/VRF151/BLF177/SD29... All of it will work in more or less the same board with at most minimal changes.

Go SMT for the lot, because availability is frankly going to be better, and anyone doing repair work will have to get familiar with it.

I am far from convinced that actually it much matters what you use, the money is in the thermal management and output filters, not the RF gain parts so much, so if in ten years someone needs to cook a new PA module for the thing using whatever is new and shiny then that is not a big deal. 

Similarly, power supplies are not that big a deal anymore, the advent of switchmode power for telecoms applications has seen to that and provided a wide range of off the shelf power supplies entirely suited to our needs.

Specify the interfaces between the controls and the RF deck, use standard connectors and provide a drill diagram for the heatsink (so if I have to do a new amplifier board sometime I can make it fit the heatsink) and I don't see anything to make me think a 20 year life is impossible or even all that unlikely, but the thing will be at least as expensive as (inflation adjusted) something solid from any of the old players.

Forgo the micro (Possibly difficult with the US market and the 11M sillyness you guys have), most everything can be handled in trivial discreet logic (Or use a micro, but provide full documentation so I can sub something else). 

The key thing to making a repairable radio actually is not what technology you use, but is that you supply ample technical documentation, ideally including a BOM, schematics, commented VHDL or Verilog sources, mechanical drawings, G code, assembly drawings, setup instructions, JTAG boundary scan sequences, the lot. Sure it means I can duplicate your radio, so what, by the time I get one you should already be working on the next big thing.

73 Dan. 


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: MAGNUM257 on January 05, 2013, 03:31:49 PM
A public forum really isn't the place for this

Then why did you do it here? Mike's post was neutral -- he basically said he was no longer affiliated with your company. Then you had to jump in and say he was fired. Tacky, tacky.

Agreed.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: TANAKASAN on January 06, 2013, 03:34:22 AM
"73 Dan (Who considers 'No user serviceable parts inside' to be a challenge)."

Such a label is an open invitation to unscrew the covers and take a peek inside.

Tanakasan


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: K8AXW on January 06, 2013, 08:12:24 AM
TANAKASAN:  Excellent point!  I suspect that in the future if ham radio exists, the new gear will in fact have a sticker like "No user serviceable parts inside" placed prominently on the outside.   ;D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: M0HCN on January 06, 2013, 08:35:16 AM
It is particularly annoying when seen on things like professional audio mixers where a significant amount of end user configuration is done by moving jumpers on pin headers inside the equipment!

I think it has something to do with that whole UL thing that the us market is so enamored of.

The other major annoyance is the common use of 'security' screws on things like power supplies, WHY? I mean sure if I screw up in a big power supply I might die, but a simple standard screw will stop me getting in there by accident and if I go in anyway that is clearly me accepting the risk, why make access harder then it needs to be.

Regards, Dan.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: WB2WIK on January 06, 2013, 09:29:06 AM
M0HCN: The "UL thing" actually pre-dates UL, as Germany's VDE is older than that (same type organization, different language) and more recently the EU has come up with more regulations than the U.S. ever dreamed of!  "RoHS2" is now a requirement for CE Mark; we have no such requirements here.

One reason so many accessories use outboard power supply "bricks" instead of inboard supplies is to help them escape Low Voltage Directive requirements.  If you only supply 5V to an appliance, almost all the regs go out the window and only the power supply itself is certified.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: M0HCN on January 06, 2013, 12:06:56 PM
The regulatory regimes between the EU and US are actually very different in that CE is (essentially) a self certification that your product complies with all applicable regulations, while you may take the view for a certain product that you need to get it tested at an independent test house, this is not actually a requirement. 

While VDE, UK, CSA are all essentially insurance industry test houses they have never really obtained the level of being almost mandatory approvals in the EU that they have for many things in the US, the regime is just totally different but I am far from certain that one is meaningfully easier then the other (You guys have FCC class B testing for example, with paperwork with large fines attached for getting it wrong, nothing quite equivalent exists here), six of one half a dozen of the other.   

I know why wall warts and line lumps are popular, that was not what I was bitching about, it is the annoying tendency to make equipment gratuitously difficult to get into that pisses me off.

Regards, Dan.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: AA4HA on January 06, 2013, 04:07:43 PM
With UL certification we are also seeing the emergence of "tri national standards" (harmonized standards) with Canada, Mexico and the US creating a single standards. (example, UL 508 transitioning to UL 60947 over the next four years). I have done design work with a company that produced UL 508 control cabinets and while it was sometimes a bit of a pain, most of the compliance can be met with careful attention paid to design. In many ways the compliance with FCC R&R is the same way. It requires good engineering practices, circuit layout, board design, attention to filtering, shielding and grounding.

We readily gripe about consumer grade electronics that creates RF hash that interferes with our ability to receive. It is important to realize that we are under the same obligation, to manufacture products that are well laid out, in compliance with emissions standards and that meets all safety requirements.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: G3RZP on January 07, 2013, 02:51:51 AM
Recent investigation by the European Commission found that some 80% of Short Range Devices and 60% of mobile radio products actually didn't meet the requirements of the applicable Decision and Directives. Not because of technical failure, but the paper work wasn't quite right!

Which suggests to me (professionally involved in radio standards and regulations) that the legal paperwork requirements are a load of BS that merely make products more expensive for the consumer, while keeping some bureaucratic jobsworths busy!


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KH6AQ on January 07, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Managing Moral Responsibility for Product Use

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/focusareas/business/products.html

This short but interesting article from the Santa Clara University Ethics page can shed some light on the ethics of the production and sale of extra high power amateur RF amplifiers. There are at least two companies building these amps at this time, Emtron (9 kW) and Dressler (40 kW).


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: N3JBH on January 07, 2013, 01:34:33 PM
WX7G , Don't take this terribly personal ok. But this crusade you our on is a bit ridiculous, In my opinion i  do not see where Dan building such amplifiers is wrong. I do not see why it bothers you so badly. And just because we here under the FCC control are restricted to 1500 watt's does not mean he can not produce larger and more powerful equipment for amateurs in other countries where they are legally permitted.

I even question rather these so called " Big Gun " stations in the USA even use amp's that where commercially built units .  I know i have tossed the idea of someday making a 3CX3000 tube amp. Now what would be my reason for that ? The amp i own now barely capable of making 800 watt's. I don't really intend to build it to make 8Kw with it.  To me it just sounds like a fun project.

I have built farm tractors that is capable of 1000 horse power. Was that so i could bale hay faster then the next farmer? I have a cubcadet garden tractor with a V6 motor on it that run close too 100 MPH is it so i can mow my yard in seconds flat? No !!!  Some folks out there like huge things and if the market will justifies the sale and production of them well so be it.

No one forcing you to buy one or use one. HeII no one even said you have to compete against one on the air. So with all this diatribe i have posted here. May i please ask you to just chill out and stop your silly quest to keep trying to make a case against this man and his business . Thanks Jeff


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: WB2WIK on January 07, 2013, 01:45:46 PM
Recent investigation by the European Commission found that some 80% of Short Range Devices and 60% of mobile radio products actually didn't meet the requirements of the applicable Decision and Directives. Not because of technical failure, but the paper work wasn't quite right!

Which suggests to me (professionally involved in radio standards and regulations) that the legal paperwork requirements are a load of BS that merely make products more expensive for the consumer, while keeping some bureaucratic jobsworths busy!

I don't think such testing and certification makes products more expensive for the consumer, unless production quantities are very, very small.  We use accredited Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories for product safety and electromagnetic compatibility verification and certification, and repeat for dozens of new products each year; the average cost "per product" is under $10,000.

If we only sold "one unit," that would be pretty expensive.  But for production units?  Heck, we spend much more than this on data sheets and marketing materials.

And in my experience, the labs, following the Standards, do a pretty good job of weeding out stuff that really shouldn't be on the market at all (without changes to comply).  U.L., for example, doesn't get involved in "how well the product works," but only "how safe" it is under normal operating conditions.  This obviously involves flammability testing, but also includes things most consumers don't know get "tested," such as whether a user can be harmed by the product tipping over and falling on his foot. :P

I think EMC testing and certification is vitally important, and perhaps should be stricter than it is, since there are lots of products on the market today that actually met all the Standards and Directives and are still very easily interfered with (my amateur radio transmitters, for example) or cause substantial interference (to amateur radio receivers, for example). ;)

Requirements vary by country or groups of countries, and are looser or stricter with many variables.  It is interesting to note that while many low-powered wireless appliances using the FM broadcast band (such as devices allowing you to play your iPod through your car's stereo system without any wired connection between them) are manufactured in Taiwan or China, those same devices they manufacture are not legal for use there, and are banned from those markets. :D


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: G3RZP on January 08, 2013, 02:18:18 AM
The problem is in the detail they wanted in the technical files, not the actual conformance to standards. The testing isn't a problem, especially since for many products, provided you have an adequate quality control system, you can self certify.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: WB2WIK on January 08, 2013, 08:06:04 AM
The problem is in the detail they wanted in the technical files, not the actual conformance to standards. The testing isn't a problem, especially since for many products, provided you have an adequate quality control system, you can self certify.

Not here, you can't.  To have a product safety recognition, you must use an NRTL who is accredited and audited.  To use the "FCC" logo indicating the product meets the stated standard, you must use an FCC accredited laboratory, or the FCC themselves.  CE Mark can be applied based on an EC (EU) Declaration of Conformity signed by an officer of the manufacturing company, but in order to actually ship product to countries not part of the EU requires considerable additional declarations tied to a CB Scheme that can only be completed by an NRTL accredited within the country of import.  To ship to China requires CCC mark, and the only labs accredited for that are in China!

I go through this stuff almost every day...


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: G3RZP on January 08, 2013, 08:10:17 AM
The system here is so weird that there are certain items of medical equipment that until clinical trials are complete, MUST NOT have a CE mark - under one Directive. If they contain radio, under another Directive, they must be CE marked.....

The draft of the new Radio Equipment Directive is out. A dog's dinner hardly describes it, while in many places, the English is appalling. Probably in the French and German versions, too.

Makes retirement in June very attractive.....


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KD4SBY on January 08, 2013, 08:46:36 AM
From a design and production point of view, I can certainly understand why they would want to build a single amplifier that serves multiple markets, however, it would seem that the people in the 'lower' market (ie, hams) are paying a lot of extra money for capabilities (ie, more power) that they are not legally able to take advantage of.  I do not have any idea how much the extra tube (and supporting circuitry) and the beefier transformer required for dual tubes adds to the cost, but I'm willing to be it is not inconsequential.

Carlton

I do not quite agree with the above statement. While there are advantages of an universal design to cut costs, it does not necessarily will result in bloated costs for different users. In the case of a design for Hams for example, it would be a simple task to supply the finished  product with a tube and transformer only capable of delivering the maximum power allowed for the this user, and change these parts as needed for others.
It is like the fire arms industry, many assult rifles are capable of fully auto fire, but it is also available in a semi auto version for general use. The basic design, however, is the same. Although things can be changed in both cases, it is assumed that the average user will not have the skills to do so.


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KD0REQ on January 08, 2013, 11:23:56 AM
if the future product used 5000 12AX7A tubes in parallel, would that satisfy everybody?


Title: RE: Dedicated RF
Post by: KB4QAA on January 08, 2013, 12:47:17 PM
if the future product used 5000 12AX7A tubes in parallel, would that satisfy everybody?
Only as long as it doesn't use exactly two tubes.