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eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: KE5JPP on February 05, 2013, 05:50:13 AM



Title: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KE5JPP on February 05, 2013, 05:50:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rycUk5kEx0k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rycUk5kEx0k)

See information about Classic Shell at 1:30.  With Classic Shell, Windows 8 even starts at the desktop and not in Metro.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: N4AWP on February 20, 2013, 02:39:31 PM
Long live XP!!

73,
Art N4AWP


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 20, 2013, 05:22:36 PM
Long live XP!!

73,
Art N4AWP


XP needs to retire and RIP


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KG4RUL on February 20, 2013, 05:52:44 PM
Long live XP!!

73,
Art N4AWP


XP needs to retire and RIP

My shack computer is XP and I have three spares on the shelf.  The computer in our EOC radio room is XP and I have a spare.  My laptop dedicated to ham radio programs is XP and I have a spare.

LONG LIVE XP

Cause anything that Microsoft has brought out lately is pure garbage.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 20, 2013, 07:18:12 PM

My shack computer is XP and I have three spares on the shelf.  The computer in our EOC radio room is XP and I have a spare.  My laptop dedicated to ham radio programs is XP and I have a spare.

LONG LIVE XP

Cause anything that Microsoft has brought out lately is pure garbage.

Clinging to past just ham strings your future growth. Even Vista is a big upgrade over XP with proper hardware and ram. And then there is the memory barrier of XP that Vista, 7 and 8 in 64 bit smash thru. Also advanced power management too that XP does not support and advanced plug and play and many other enhancements.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KG4RUL on February 20, 2013, 09:31:15 PM

My shack computer is XP and I have three spares on the shelf.  The computer in our EOC radio room is XP and I have a spare.  My laptop dedicated to ham radio programs is XP and I have a spare.

LONG LIVE XP

Cause anything that Microsoft has brought out lately is pure garbage.

Clinging to past just ham strings your future growth. Even Vista is a big upgrade over XP with proper hardware and ram. And then there is the memory barrier of XP that Vista, 7 and 8 in 64 bit smash thru. Also advanced power management too that XP does not support and advanced plug and play and many other enhancements.

Of course, your are ignoring a plethora of great amateur radio related programs that either run BADLY or NOT AT ALL on Win7 and now, god forbid, Win8. 

r.e. Vista, my Wife made the unfortunate choice of buying a Dell laptop  with that OS.  She has only had to reload it a half dozen times as it seems to like to destroy  itself while running. 

Plug and Play - are you sure you didn't mean to say Plug and Pray?

BTW have you noticed in all the Win8 ads, you don't see a single user doing ANYTHING useful?

I will use my XP machines till they pry them, cold and broken, from my hands.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KU7PDX on February 21, 2013, 08:19:04 AM
We just recently converted all of our computers at work to Windows 8. Classic Shell is good, but I think one that is just a little better is Pokki.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W5DQ on February 21, 2013, 09:36:44 AM
Long live XP!!

73,
Art N4AWP


It will until around APRIL 2014 then it dies from lack of support.

I too like the stability that XP seemed to afford me along with the ease at which it seems to work with older hardware. I find Windows 7 a bit finicky about the hardware it will play nice with. Sure it supports all the new stuff but it tends to balk once in a while with older peripherals since there is no support for Win7 compatible drivers, etc. Not pointing fingers here so no need for anyone to launch a "Windows 7 vs Windows XP" firestorm in the thread.

I'm in the 'wait till the end' mode too with my shack PC running a VERY stable Win XP build!!!

Gene W5DQ


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 21, 2013, 10:06:28 AM
Of course, your are ignoring a plethora of great amateur radio related programs that either run BADLY or NOT AT ALL on Win7 and now, god forbid, Win8.  

That is because they are poorly written. XP will tolerated poor code dating to WIN9x platform while newer 64 bit OS's will not. Any program written in proper/modern WIN32 will run fine.

r.e. Vista, my Wife made the unfortunate choice of buying a Dell laptop  with that OS.  She has only had to reload it a half dozen times as it seems to like to destroy  itself while running.


Her mistake was to buy a Dell. It is well known in IT circles that Dell cut corners on Vista machines with non compliant chipsets and not enough ram to boost profit margin. Today Dell is on life support and founder is trying to take it private and abandon consumer PC market. I have a old HP with a Intel quad core and 8 gig that has been running 64 bit Vista for 5+ years flawlessly without a single reload.  

Plug and Play - are you sure you didn't mean to say Plug and Pray?

It was more plug and prey under XP than now. Mature PnP is a product of modern chipsets and modern OS that supports them. XP missed this boat.

BTW have you noticed in all the Win8 ads, you don't see a single user doing ANYTHING useful?

This is because PC is in transition to tablet platform and Win 8 is a big first step. It is a new learning curve. on proper hardware it will track and receive your mail and messages while sleeping. MicroSoft kinda muddied matters with two versions of 8. The tablet RT version runs on a ARM processor (same as Andriod and Apple) and has no legacy support for Win apps. Surface Pro tablets now coming out have Intel processors and run full 8 (same as desktop) with legacy support.  

I will use my XP machines till they pry them, cold and broken, from my hands.

Your loss in long run.

BTW you can even run XP as a guest OS under 64 bit Vista or 7 (or 8 )


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KF6QEX on February 21, 2013, 11:18:42 AM
Quote
It will until around APRIL 2014 then it dies from lack of support.
I'd agree with you if my windows 2000 machine wasn't still running in 2013  :)


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 21, 2013, 01:04:25 PM
Quote
It will until around APRIL 2014 then it dies from lack of support.
I'd agree with you if my windows 2000 machine wasn't still running in 2013  :)


It will still run (W2K if hardware is okay) but there no support to fix security issues for it and XP is only receiving security updates and nothing more now.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: K1CJS on February 24, 2013, 07:43:43 AM
If Win8 has changed appreciably from its pre-beta release, I don't know.  I only know that I got it when it first was offered for testing, and it was such a pain in the backside to try to figure out how to use that I've wiped it off my hard drive.

Win XP was good--very good--once they got the major bugs out of it.  Vista was not because of too many conflicting ideals and features, but the rework of Vista which was called Win 7 wasn't too bad at all, again once they got the major bugs out of it.

Win 8, because of its major changes to enable it to work on touchpad computers and other simplified "anybody can use it" dumbed down computer boxes, is near worthless to most computer users who enjoy being able to use traditional computer systems--unless, of course, those users use multiple add-ons that seem to bring Windows back to the 'Vista' era.

Windows XP and Windows 7 (I have the Win 7 Ultimate edition) are good steady systems--unlike Vista, and offer maximum user control--unlike Win 8.  Microsoft wanted to go general purpose with Win 8, and they have, but I rather control the operating system--rather than have it control me and how I use the computer system I have.



Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: N2UM on February 24, 2013, 08:22:26 AM
I went thru the XP to Windows 8 experience without losing too much blood.  Windows 8 seems confusing but the secret is to switch to the desktop instead of trying to use the media screen and loading Classic Shell.  It makes everything much more familiar.  As far as serial ports are concerned, USB to serial adapters with the "Prolific" chipset generally are difficult to get to work.  The "FTDI" chipset works quite well.  I'm sure the Prolific chipset is a driver problem and sooner or later someone will fix that.  I use a Startech four port adapter that is a reasonable cost.  It has a FTDI chipset and was plug & play.  All of my ham radio programs work fine with Windows 8!


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 24, 2013, 11:25:10 AM

Win XP was good--very good--once they got the major bugs out of it.  Vista was not because of too many conflicting ideals and features, but the rework of Vista which was called Win 7 wasn't too bad at all, again once they got the major bugs out of it.


Vista was fine on correct hardware. Vista was kinda ahead of hardware for its time and OEM vendors like Dell rushed systems to market that were not Vista compliant on hardware side. HP waited. 7 got a much  better launch because main stream hardware was ready for it and ram was cheaper and systems shipped with more. Vista should have never launched on 512 meg or single core CPU's. With at least 2 gig with 32 bit and decent CPU it played fine. With 64 bit 6 gig of ram or more and a fast CPU it was very solid and fast.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KE5JPP on February 25, 2013, 04:40:02 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how backward hams are when it comes to computer systems.  The pure junk they try to keep running with their crappy outdated operating systems and ancient hardware is just laughable.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 25, 2013, 05:17:19 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how backward hams are when it comes to computer systems.  The pure junk they try to keep running with their crappy outdated operating systems and ancient hardware is just laughable.

Wants even cuter is when they spend several thousand on gear and yet try to keep cheap dated computer gear alive. New ATA hard drives for old computers are nearly non existent now too increases chances on a total system failure that cannot be fixed with new replacement parts.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KF6QEX on February 28, 2013, 01:08:00 AM
Quote
It never ceases to amaze me how backward hams are when it comes to computer systems.  The pure junk they try to keep running with their crappy outdated operating systems and ancient hardware is just laughable.

Some prefer to use the right tool for the job. Laughing all the way while getting their stuff done.

And to paraphrase from a post I read here on eham not too long ago:
To think the release of a new OS by Microsoft has anything to do with you (the end user) is just uninformed :)


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on February 28, 2013, 08:03:14 AM
Quote
It never ceases to amaze me how backward hams are when it comes to computer systems.  The pure junk they try to keep running with their crappy outdated operating systems and ancient hardware is just laughable.

Some prefer to use the right tool for the job. Laughing all the way while getting their stuff done.

And to paraphrase from a post I read here on eham not too long ago:
To think the release of a new OS by Microsoft has anything to do with you (the end user) is just uninformed :)


The laughing part is clinging to old hardware and OS. Even a cheap entry level system today is light years ahead of a main stream XP of a decade ago. wait too long and pretty soon new Win 7 machines will be gone. The longer you cling to XP the more painful the inevitable transition from it will be one day.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: K1CJS on March 01, 2013, 04:00:48 AM
This page just goes to show how much some people will bend over frontwards and let Microsoft dictate what's new and what's old, or better still--what's useable and what's outmoded.  If the system that you've got works for you and you're happy with it, don't let anyone else tell you it's obsolete. 

The same thing with the 'availability' of older parts.  5 1/4 floppy drives have been obsolete for years, but they're still being sold.  3 1/2 floppys are obsolete now--but you can still buy computers that have them installed.  Hard drives are no different.  The older ones are still available, and will be.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: N3OX on March 01, 2013, 05:37:05 AM
I like the UI of Windows 8 okay. Lack of start button doesn't bother me... if you stick your mouse in the lower left corner you get the start screen, and that's a pretty small change.

I like a lot of the gesture control stuff on a big trackpad on my laptop. It's not strictly only useful for touchscreens.

On a laptop I haven't found much use yet for the new-style programs... er "apps" :) THOSE seem to be mostly useful for tablets and phones especially because they don't keep running in the background. Google Chrome in Win 8 style is beautiful and gives more screen real estate but if I'm listening to music in it or something, that suspends when I swipe away from it.

My one real gripe of Windows 8, which isn't actually Microsoft's fault, is that the Windows ports of GNU Octave don't work on Windows 8 yet. In a pinch it's a dual boot machine and I can switch to Ubuntu for that.

I used XP right up to the switch to Win 8 on most of my machines, though I did have Win 7 starter on my netbook and liked that. But it's a little hard to run 16GB of RAM with XP ;D



Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on March 02, 2013, 09:06:18 AM
This page just goes to show how much some people will bend over frontwards and let Microsoft dictate what's new and what's old, or better still--what's useable and what's outmoded.  If the system that you've got works for you and you're happy with it, don't let anyone else tell you it's obsolete.


Actually it is industry and technology that is dictating the direction now and MicroSoft is trying to keep up with it.  Hardware has come a long way since XP days and needs newer than a 13 year old OS to exploit and utilize it. I know a guy that bought a new computer powered by a Intel quad core and running 64bit WIN 7.  He down graded it to XP and it turned into a slug. While XP "saw" the 4 cores it could not really use them properly nor the hardware as XP was never written to support it and no after market support for chipset drivers because XP is a dead end.

The same thing with the 'availability' of older parts.  5 1/4 floppy drives have been obsolete for years, but they're still being sold.  3 1/2 floppys are obsolete now--but you can still buy computers that have them installed.  Hard drives are no different.  The older ones are still available, and will be.

Any parts available are old and I have not seen a name brand system sold/shipped with a floppy drive in over 10 years now. Hard drive and CD drives for old IDE interface XP era computers are getting very scarce too as it s a dead standard that was replaced by serial ATA. Newer HD's based on new technology and many times faster, cooler running, quieter and longer lifespan too.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: K1CJS on March 03, 2013, 07:52:51 AM
Actually it is industry and technology that is dictating the direction now and MicroSoft is trying to keep up with it....

And I suppose that it was not Microsoft's decision to combine two operating systems into one and produce Windows 8?  Sorry, but I can't agree with that statement.  Microsoft is still the driving force behind computer technology, since they also develop and manufacture hardware.  Or don't the court cases concerning their monopolizing the computer industry interest you?


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: N3OX on March 03, 2013, 08:32:11 AM
Quote
Microsoft is still the driving force behind computer technology, since they also develop and manufacture hardware

A large portion of the day-to-day computing needs of a huge fraction of today's computer users can be handled by a touchscreen device or two.

Furthermore, it seems to me that every "consumer" computing platform, including Ubuntu Linux, has come to the realization that some users want all of their devices to act the same way and sync together seamlessly and automatically. This was pretty clear to me when both the factory-installed Win 8 and my Ubuntu installation BOTH wanted me to sign up for the corresponding cloud services and a couple weeks later I found out that Ubuntu is coming out with a phone! They will also do tablets, there's an Ubuntu "App Store," and all that.

Some of Windows 8's touchscreen-oriented features are a little out of place on a laptop (though they wouldn't be on a touchscreen laptop) but having the same OS on the home machine, phone, and tablet seems to be what the non-Apple companies are doing to compete with Apple's success with the iPhone and iPad.

Microsoft is most certainly not leading the charge on this; Apple changed the market and others are playing catch-up on smartphone/tablet integration into a user's home computer system. I think that others could compete on technical merit, hardware power and cost, and ease of use, but Apple was there first.



Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on March 03, 2013, 09:46:48 AM
Actually it is industry and technology that is dictating the direction now and MicroSoft is trying to keep up with it....

And I suppose that it was not Microsoft's decision to combine two operating systems into one and produce Windows 8?  Sorry, but I can't agree with that statement.  Microsoft is still the driving force behind computer technology, since they also develop and manufacture hardware.  Or don't the court cases concerning their monopolizing the computer industry interest you?

The tried to monopolize software but they only recently started building computers in the form of tablet. Also what to operating systems into one?  Metro is a shell not a OS.



Microsoft is most certainly not leading the charge on this; Apple changed the market and others are playing catch-up on smartphone/tablet integration into a user's home computer system. I think that others could compete on technical merit, hardware power and cost, and ease of use, but Apple was there first.


The main reason for this was the lack of a ultra low powered x86 CPU for tablet market. Ipad and Android use a ARM processor which is a reduced instruction set low power CPU. It is not compatible with x86 code. MS's Windows RT is a version for Windows for ARM CPU but it has no compatibility with existing apps and apps like Word written for RT do not look and feel the same as desktop version again because of ARM CPU. Enter the 3rd generation Atom (along with a 4th generation i5 CPU) which is powering Surface pro tablet running a full desktop version of 8. As lowly as Atom is regarded power wise it is more powerful than most ARM processors and a new 4th gen version is coming with a new quad core with a new core design too that will boost performance well above all ARM CPU's. Apple was indeed first but I doubt they will maintain their grip long as x86 hardware is evolving and next gen Atom will support Android too. Apple lock is going to be broken.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: AG6WT on March 04, 2013, 08:29:38 AM

The tried to monopolize software but they only recently started building computers in the form of tablet. Also what to operating systems into one?  Metro is a shell not a OS.


And that's where Microsoft has failed. The OS upgrade was necessary but they didn't need to shoe horn everyone into Metro. If they had a Win7 UI mode as an option, a full implementation of the UI with all keyboard short cuts and all, then a lot of people who use their computers for work, real work not just putzing around with picture, games, or web surfing, would be happy.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: K1CJS on March 04, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
I still hold the position that Microsoft in the industry leader.  If a company product get a 'blessing' in the form of Microsoft's recognition and inclusion, then that company is sure to profit and it's 'product' is sure to succeed.  If, however, that product gets shunted aside in favor of a competing product, the company's product will have a very hard--if not impossible--time to be accepted and widely distributed. 

Also, it still is the norm that applications are built to specs that Microsoft puts out, not that Microsoft builds their OS to accommodate an application that is built to that company's specs.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: W8JX on March 04, 2013, 10:01:23 AM

The tried to monopolize software but they only recently started building computers in the form of tablet. Also what to operating systems into one?  Metro is a shell not a OS.


And that's where Microsoft has failed. The OS upgrade was necessary but they didn't need to shoe horn everyone into Metro. If they had a Win7 UI mode as an option, a full implementation of the UI with all keyboard short cuts and all, then a lot of people who use their computers for work, real work not just putzing around with picture, games, or web surfing, would be happy.

Because we are migrating to a touch screen world and failing to support this has cost Microsoft a lot and will cost more in future if they do no change with it. 8 is a step in that direction. We cannot keep the XP blinders on and hope for best.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KE5JPP on March 04, 2013, 05:08:33 PM
If they had a Win7 UI mode as an option, a full implementation of the UI with all keyboard short cuts and all, then a lot of people who use their computers for work, real work not just putzing around with picture, games, or web surfing, would be happy.

Just install classic shell and that is exactly what you get.  You can even play around in Metro if you want with classic shell installed.


Title: RE: Windows 8 - Get your start button back
Post by: KC9DRE on April 21, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
And that is why I have a Mac and Linux on my machines  ;D.... I only have the Mac loaded cause It plays most mainstream games that I am interested in without having to run them through wine and hope for the best. 

As for IDE drives, the company I work for has ALOT of legacy gear out there that runs on the IDE drives and we can still procure them with no issue at this point. Though I do agree that the consumer market is seeing less of them these days.  (We still have a few places that are running Win9x in a production environment and dare I say Win NT3.x as well?  It dosent take alot of processor to add merchandise and calculate taxes  ;D

I have seen a couple accounts we service that are running Intel PII processors and we can still get parts for those...