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eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: WX2S on February 17, 2013, 06:17:13 PM



Title: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: WX2S on February 17, 2013, 06:17:13 PM
Heard a DX cop the other day send didiDAHdit didiDAH to someone (not me.). I don't mind being reminded if I forget to turn split mode on, but this is crossing the line. How often do you suppose it happens?

73,
- WX2S.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KE8G on February 17, 2013, 07:01:11 PM
Unfortunately, quite a bit!  I have heard the so called "cops" send that repeatedly for minutes on end.  I guess it makes them feel important to act so badly!

Take a listen to ANY pileup for a DXpedition, you will hear all sorts of nasty things.

73 de Jim - KE8G


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AC4RD on February 18, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
I think some of the "kilocycle cops" really think they're helping (they're NOT) and others just like being a nuisance.  Either way, one single "UP" is OK, but anything more than that is jamming, IMO.

There was some wet end last year in a phone simplex pileup who kept yelling on the DX frequency, "Watch the band edges, American hams!  Watch those band edges!"  He never ID'd but he sounded like an American.  It's a good thing for him we haven't figured out how to physically harm people via ham radio yet. 


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KE8G on February 18, 2013, 09:53:23 AM
I think some of the "kilocycle cops" really think they're helping (they're NOT) and others just like being a nuisance.  Either way, one single "UP" is OK, but anything more than that is jamming, IMO.

There was some wet end last year in a phone simplex pileup who kept yelling on the DX frequency, "Watch the band edges, American hams!  Watch those band edges!"  He never ID'd but he sounded like an American.  It's a good thing for him we haven't figured out how to physically harm people via ham radio yet. 

Well, I don't really want to hurt the person, but wouldn't it be nice if they received a direct lightening hit and their equipment is totally destroyed?  And any new equipment would receive the same treatment, so they could never again get on the air!!!

73 de Jim - KE8G


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: K3NRX on February 18, 2013, 10:20:06 AM
Welcome to DXing!..... ::).... :-[....

V
KA3NRX


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KE8G on February 18, 2013, 10:39:06 AM
Welcome to DXing!..... ::).... :-[....

V
KA3NRX

Yep, it's been the same for the past 33 years that i know of!!


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NU4B on February 18, 2013, 10:58:05 AM
A "cop" by definition is bad behavior.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NU1O on February 18, 2013, 11:44:47 AM
KE8G is right. We have no doubt had this problem since split was first used but how can somebody be so stupid as to think an expedition would be working simplex?  I realize frequently somebody just hits the wrong button, but after one or two calls they usually switch VFOs on their own.  How do we explain all the people who believe the DX station is actually working simplex?   

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KE8G on February 18, 2013, 02:02:10 PM
Chris/NU1O,

You have posed the $64K question.  I have always wondered that myself, as on a personal level & with friends in my DX club, we all have a very good idea of upcoming DXpeditions and what bands/frequencies they will be operating.  A couple minutes of surfing the DX websites and a person has a lot of information.

Now, for the person who accidentally transmits on freq, that happens.  I know sometimes in the heat of the chase, even as careful as I try to be, I have made that mistake, .  It does happen & that's part of life.  I am REMINDED by our friends to go up, and the problem is solved.

I wonder if there is some way the spotting clusters can make an announcement, along with the spotted station, to remember to work split?  We see all sorts of notes thanking the station for an ATNO, new band, mode, etc.  Maybe a default "split" message could appear, as 99.9% of DXpeditions, are always working split.  I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of people chasing a station got the initial spot via a cluster, as that's the way it is done today; just plain easier rather than listening on the bands.

Does any one else have any ideas that might help with the problem?

73 de Jim - KE8G


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: N3QE on February 18, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
I wonder if there is some way the spotting clusters can make an announcement, along with the spotted station, to remember to work split?  We see all sorts of notes thanking the station for an ATNO, new band, mode, etc.  Maybe a default "split" message could appear, as 99.9% of DXpeditions, are always working split.  I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of people chasing a station got the initial spot via a cluster, as that's the way it is done today; just plain easier rather than listening on the bands.

I think there is some support for this already in the logging program I use. If I click on a spot that says "UP 2" or "QSX 14027.5" in N1MM, it will automatically set my radio to the split in the spot. Of course I rarely want to be exactly on that split, but it's a useful start.

The above works for some spots made by humans or generated by humans using logging programs. For skimmer spots... I could imagine that if it saw "UP" or "UP2" after the CQ, the skimmer-to-spot filters could make a spot with the announced or a default split. I don't think this is existing functionality but I could imagine it.

It might be too much to expect the skimmer-to-spot filter know what is "rare and must be working split" vs "not rare and unlikely to be working split". Sure, much of the rare DX you and I want to work will be working split, but how is a computer program to know "rare" (probably 0.1% total of skimmer spots) calls from the vast sea of "not rare and not working split" calls. And I've often been surprised how, on the low bands, the rare DX is often not working split (or is listening just a tiny bit off their CQ frequency).


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: WS3N on February 18, 2013, 03:21:42 PM
I wonder if there is some way the spotting clusters can make an announcement, along with the spotted station, to remember to work split?  We see all sorts of notes thanking the station for an ATNO, new band, mode, etc.  Maybe a default "split" message could appear, as 99.9% of DXpeditions, are always working split.  I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of people chasing a station got the initial spot via a cluster, as that's the way it is done today; just plain easier rather than listening on the bands.

I think there is some support for this already in the logging program I use. If I click on a spot that says "UP 2" or "QSX 14027.5" in N1MM, it will automatically set my radio to the split in the spot. Of course I rarely want to be exactly on that split, but it's a useful start.

The above works for some spots made by humans or generated by humans using logging programs. For skimmer spots... I could imagine that if it saw "UP" or "UP2" after the CQ, the skimmer-to-spot filters could make a spot with the announced or a default split. I don't think this is existing functionality but I could imagine it.

It might be too much to expect the skimmer-to-spot filter know what is "rare and must be working split" vs "not rare and unlikely to be working split". Sure, much of the rare DX you and I want to work will be working split, but how is a computer program to know "rare" (probably 0.1% total of skimmer spots) calls from the vast sea of "not rare and not working split" calls.

DXLab works this way. I believe it also generates a spot with the split that was used, although I never really checked and I don't spot much. Maybe Dave or another user could comment.


Now, for the person who accidentally transmits on freq, that happens.  I know sometimes in the heat of the chase, even as careful as I try to be, I have made that mistake, .  It does happen & that's part of life.  I am REMINDED by our friends to go up, and the problem is solved.

Suppose we all make that mistake once every hundred times. Fairly infrequently for the individual, but if there are a hundred callers trying to get through we can expect it to happen in every pile up. And that's just an honest mistake by a good operator. It doesn't count the clueless.



Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AC4RD on February 18, 2013, 03:45:03 PM
Welcome to DXing!..... ::).... :-[....
Yep, it's been the same for the past 33 years that i know of!!

This is one reason I don't work much phone these days.  The cops and kooks are fewer on CW, and even fewer yet on RTTY.  I quit playing with the radios for over a year, a few years ago, mostly because I was working a lot of phone at the time and I was disgusted at behavior in the phone pileups.

Some other people were talking about spotting clusters and DXing.  Just MHO, but I've got 100 watts and mostly wire antennas; if some good DX has been spotted on the cluster, my chances of working him are MUCH less than if I catch him BEFORE he's been spotted.  I think it's better to listen carefully to bands that sound quiet, and see what you can find yourself.  It takes more time and effort, but it's much more fun to work someone you heard, than someone you saw spotted. :)  I worked the TO4E group on PSK because one of them called someone in French Polynesia that I was ALSO trying to work.  :)


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KE8G on February 18, 2013, 03:46:56 PM
I wonder if there is some way the spotting clusters can make an announcement, along with the spotted station, to remember to work split?  We see all sorts of notes thanking the station for an ATNO, new band, mode, etc.  Maybe a default "split" message could appear, as 99.9% of DXpeditions, are always working split.  I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of people chasing a station got the initial spot via a cluster, as that's the way it is done today; just plain easier rather than listening on the bands.

I think there is some support for this already in the logging program I use. If I click on a spot that says "UP 2" or "QSX 14027.5" in N1MM, it will automatically set my radio to the split in the spot. Of course I rarely want to be exactly on that split, but it's a useful start.

The above works for some spots made by humans or generated by humans using logging programs. For skimmer spots... I could imagine that if it saw "UP" or "UP2" after the CQ, the skimmer-to-spot filters could make a spot with the announced or a default split. I don't think this is existing functionality but I could imagine it.

It might be too much to expect the skimmer-to-spot filter know what is "rare and must be working split" vs "not rare and unlikely to be working split". Sure, much of the rare DX you and I want to work will be working split, but how is a computer program to know "rare" (probably 0.1% total of skimmer spots) calls from the vast sea of "not rare and not working split" calls.

DXLab works this way. I believe it also generates a spot with the split that was used, although I never really checked and I don't spot much. Maybe Dave or another user could comment.


Now, for the person who accidentally transmits on freq, that happens.  I know sometimes in the heat of the chase, even as careful as I try to be, I have made that mistake, .  It does happen & that's part of life.  I am REMINDED by our friends to go up, and the problem is solved.

Suppose we all make that mistake once every hundred times. Fairly infrequently for the individual, but if there are a hundred callers trying to get through we can expect it to happen in every pile up. And that's just an honest mistake by a good operator. It doesn't count the clueless.



Yes, both N1MM & SpotCollector have that ability, but I was thinking of the Web type spots; such as, DX Summit or DX Watch, which might be used more than the above mentioned spotting software.  Maybe a default message something like, "there's a good chance this DX station is working split."  It would not need to give a specific number for the split or whether it is up/down, something just for a station to consider the possibility.

I agree if a very small percentage makes a mistake, it still leads to QRM, but that is not preventable, it's going to happen no matter how careful people are.  I was referring to those that don't consider operating split as the SOP, a message such as above might enlighten them.

As long as there is Dxing, there will always be QRM; whether accidental, uninformed, or on purpose.  It's the nature of the game.

73 de Jim - KE8G


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: W9KDX on February 18, 2013, 04:43:24 PM
..... but how can somebody be so stupid as to think an expedition would be working simplex?  ........   

73,

Chris/NU1O

Actually, it is quite easy.  A new ham who is not using a computer and is unaware of just what a DXpedition is could easily stumble across a station calling CQ who forgets from time to time to mention that they are listening up.

I spent a lot of time reading here and elsewhere and also digging around on the web to find out what spotting and DXpeditions were as well as learning what "up" means.  I happen to saturate myself in anything I am interested in but I could easily see how someone who is less enthusiastic could be totally unaware that some CQ calling is "special".  My own first few DXpedition QSLs were accidental; I was not looking for them, just listening.  It takes a while to understand that when you see the pile up, you have to go down a few to see who is causing all the fuss.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AF3Y on February 18, 2013, 04:47:54 PM
KE8G is right. We have no doubt had this problem since split was first used but how can somebody be so stupid as to think an expedition would be working simplex? .  How do we explain all the people who believe the DX station is actually working simplex? 
73,
Chris/NU1O

Chris, I asked this exact question months ago, and got a couple replies that I should not expect ops to know the DX is working split until he sends UP.

Maybe those hams were new at the time and have figured it out by now.

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NK7Z on February 18, 2013, 04:51:26 PM
Heard a DX cop the other day send didiDAHdit didiDAH to someone (not me.). I don't mind being reminded if I forget to turn split mode on, but this is crossing the line. How often do you suppose it happens?

73,
- WX2S.

I hear this often, some poor fellow forgets to go to split, and the next thing you know, someone is insulting him, as opposed to helping him...  It gets very old...  I heard a DX station actualy ask the DX cop to stop helping a few years ago...  That is how bad it is now...


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NK7Z on February 18, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Chris/NU1O,

I wonder if there is some way the spotting clusters can make an announcement, along with the spotted station, to remember to work split?  We see all sorts of notes thanking the station for an ATNO, new band, mode, etc.  Maybe a default "split" message could appear, as 99.9% of DXpeditions, are always working split.  I am willing to bet, that the vast majority of people chasing a station got the initial spot via a cluster, as that's the way it is done today; just plain easier rather than listening on the bands.

Does any one else have any ideas that might help with the problem?


Hi

I use MixW, and it will see the split in the cluster if someone actually puts something in like "up 5", and when I click on teh station, the rig drops into split by itself...  Very handy...


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NU4B on February 18, 2013, 06:14:34 PM
While normally you would think DXpeditions would be operating split, it is quite common to hear them operating simplex when not busy. I heard several this weekend  - outside the contest -  operating simplex and one announcing split but answering on his transmit freq. One started out split, but then ended up operating simplex.

In any case it is more likely to hear a DX station operating split, announcing it, and then hear several people calling on freq for whatever reason.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: WX2S on February 21, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
Ran into a form of bad behavior the other day that I hadn't seen before: the "pirate cop." Pretends to be the DX.

- WX2S


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NU1O on February 21, 2013, 10:04:16 AM
Ran into a form of bad behavior the other day that I hadn't seen before: the "pirate cop." Pretends to be the DX.

- WX2S

If one pretends to be the DX they are a Pirate.  How does the cop come into the equation?

The other day I saw somebody writing a legitimate station off as a Pirate.  That's what I thought you meant by "Pirate Cop."

73,

Chris/NU1O




Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: K7KB on February 21, 2013, 10:13:30 AM
I think what he means Chris is sometimes you might hear someone calling the DX'pedition on frequency instead of split, doesn't move up after being being told several times by the cop to move, so finally someone calls him pretending to be the DX, "W7XXX ur 599 bk". W7XXX thinks he has the QSO and then happily moves off thinking he is in the log. The tactic usually doesn't work, but you hear it all the time :)

John K7KB


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: K3STX on February 21, 2013, 10:24:12 AM
The tactic usually doesn't work, but you hear it all the time :)

I do indeed hear it all the time, and unfortunately in my opinion it works quite well!! When I hear it I try to email the guy and tell him he has been had by one of the LID cops and to try again for the DX.

paul


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KJ4FUU on February 21, 2013, 10:33:02 AM
While normally you would think DXpeditions would be operating split, it is quite common to hear them operating simplex when not busy. I heard several this weekend  - outside the contest -  operating simplex and one announcing split but answering on his transmit freq. One started out split, but then ended up operating simplex.

In any case it is more likely to hear a DX station operating split, announcing it, and then hear several people calling on freq for whatever reason.

Very true. Towards the end of the expedition, I worked Malpelo Island 20m simplex.

-- Tom


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: WX2S on February 21, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
I think what he means Chris is sometimes you might hear someone calling the DX'pedition on frequency instead of split, doesn't move up after being being told several times by the cop to move, so finally someone calls him pretending to be the DX, "W7XXX ur 599 bk". W7XXX thinks he has the QSO and then happily moves off thinking he is in the log. The tactic usually doesn't work, but you hear it all the time :)

John K7KB
This.

- WX2S


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AF3Y on February 21, 2013, 03:28:48 PM
The tactic usually doesn't work, but you hear it all the time :)

I do indeed hear it all the time, and unfortunately in my opinion it works quite well!! When I hear it I try to email the guy and tell him he has been had by one of the LID cops and to try again for the DX.

paul

Depends...... if he had been continously calling on the DX freq, I would not tell him a damned thing. He got exactly what he deserved IMHO. I would never do the pirate cop thing, but I think sometimes its deserved by the LID.

 Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

We all make the wrong VFO error from time to time, but calling over and over on the DX freq usually means the idiot cannot even copy UP UP.....  AND.... if that is the case, he should not even attempt to work DX. Perhaps he would be better suited to ragchewing. ::)

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: W7NUW on February 21, 2013, 05:05:52 PM
It amazes me to hear a powerful station, sometimes with a 1X2 call, calling (and calling, and calling) split-working DX on the DX frequency. I look him up on QRZ.COM and see he has 50K+ queries and a big antenna farm. Of course, he's ignoring the "up" cops as well.

How can this be? Are these people just trying to block others from making the contact?

Re those who "answer" as if they were the DX: I won't do it, but the German word schadenfreude does reflect my feelings about those who are fooled.

Of course there are honest mistakes. Most of us make them.

Ken Lawson W7NUW


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KF6ABU on February 21, 2013, 05:25:10 PM
It amazes me to hear a powerful station, sometimes with a 1X2 call, calling (and calling, and calling) split-working DX on the DX frequency. I look him up on QRZ.COM and see he has 50K+ queries and a big antenna farm.

That is my experience as well. I usually just think they have old timers and can't think anymore.

I laugh when someone answers them your 59 and they think they logged the DX. I wish more people did it.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: W6GX on February 21, 2013, 08:05:42 PM
I believe there are two categories of QRM, unintentional and intentional.  Calling on the wrong frequency is unintentional and excusable.  When someone calls on the wrong frequency he/she has nothing to gain as the DX won't hear them.  We all have done it at one time or another by mistake.  The problem is when you have several hundred people trying to work the DX even an error rate of 1% translates to really bad QRM on the DX's frequency.  Mistakes happen even to those with 1x2 callers.  The second category of QRM is intentional and these are 1) calling when the DX asks for a specific/partial call, 2) those who don't listen and keeps calling, 3) 'stomping' over a weak station in a QSO, and 4) calling over a solid QSO already in progress.  IMHO the intentional QRM is perhaps 100 times worse than the unintentional QRM.  It's not likely that we'll be able to fix either categories of QRM anytime soon >:(

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: NU1O on February 21, 2013, 09:01:57 PM
I think what he means Chris is sometimes you might hear someone calling the DX'pedition on frequency instead of split, doesn't move up after being being told several times by the cop to move, so finally someone calls him pretending to be the DX, "W7XXX ur 599 bk". W7XXX thinks he has the QSO and then happily moves off thinking he is in the log. The tactic usually doesn't work, but you hear it all the time :)

John K7KB

Thanks, John.  I have heard it myself but I would not do it to a fellow ham.

As for DXpeditions not always working split that is true but the first rule of the DX Code of Conduct is:

I will listen, and listen, and then listen again before calling.

If one really follows the Code of Conduct it is hard to get in trouble and the beauty of the Code is they are all common sense rules. The only rule I have a problem with is rule #4 and only in certain situations, #4 I will not interfere with the DX station or anyone calling and will never tune up on the DX frequency or in the QSX slot.

That supposedly covers frequency cops. Most times somebody on the wrong VFO catches it on their own after one or two mistakes, but what do we do with the guy who has called ten times and is really disrupting things? At some point I think somebody has to simply say, "X1XX he is working split."

W7NUW says he hears a lot of 1X2 stations with thousands of lookups working the wrong VFO. I think the answer to that one is we have a lot of older hams and it could be a memory problem or medicine which effects the person's memory. Even simple cold medicine can make one groggy and when one one gets up into their 60's and 70's the docotor usually has them on multiple prescritptions and they all have side-effects.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: W7NUW on February 21, 2013, 11:00:45 PM


"W7NUW says he hears a lot of 1X2 stations with thousands of lookups working the wrong VFO. I think the answer to that one is we have a lot of older hams and it could be a memory problem or medicine which effects the person's memory. Even simple cold medicine can make one groggy and when one one gets up into their 60's and 70's the docotor usually has them on multiple prescritptions and they all have side-effects.

73,

Chris/NU1O"


My words didn't accurately convey my meaning. My intent was to express surprise that it wasn't just "newbies" who were ignoring split instructions. I referred to "1X2" calls to imply experience and hard-earned knowledge, and in no way to suggest that those holding these calls were "loosing it" because of age. To the contrary, I am in awe of the skills of the great majority of these hams. I am 69 myself, but only 5 years on the air after 48 years QRT.

Ken Lawson W7NUW


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: W7WQ on February 22, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
I work mostly CW these days because when I get on phone the antics make me head back down to CW.  It's one would expect now that there are no licensing requirements.  Only thing left is to let us pick our "handles" like on 27mc.  I'm putting in for "The Phantom of 75 meters.....;)


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AJ8MH on February 22, 2013, 05:32:56 PM
While listening to XT2TT today, I heard several stations calling on his frequency using (what sounded like) a bug and full QSK.  It certainly sounded like the same guy using different callsigns.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: KJ7YY on February 23, 2013, 04:26:08 PM
My solution is to do away with split operation completely.  The DX station is taking up 3 to 5 khz of band and the lids answering are taking up 3 to 5 on either side with thier mistuned amps and it is all just a mess.


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: AF3Y on February 23, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
My solution is to do away with split operation completely.  The DX station is taking up 3 to 5 khz of band and the lids answering are taking up 3 to 5 on either side with thier mistuned amps and it is all just a mess.

I am sure that would make you and your net buddies very happy.  Spoken like a true net nutter.

Damned shame the DX has to interfer with your OMISS, etc. nets, huh ???

I dont think you will get much support for that one here.............

Are you sure you are posting in the correct forum?

73, Gene AF3Y
(Damn..... I think I just replied to a TROLL ::) )


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: K6UJ on February 23, 2013, 08:44:31 PM
My solution is to do away with split operation completely.  The DX station is taking up 3 to 5 khz of band and the lids answering are taking up 3 to 5 on either side with thier mistuned amps and it is all just a mess.

I am sure that would make you and your net buddies very happy.  Spoken like a true net nutter.

Damned shame the DX has to interfer with your OMISS, etc. nets, huh ???

I dont think you will get much support for that one here.............

Are you sure you are posting in the correct forum?

73, Gene AF3Y
(Damn..... I think I just replied to a TROLL ::) )



I think you did too Gene.  Anyone even with only a superficial understanding of DXing knows about the need for DX split operation.   ::)

Bob
K6UJ


Title: RE: DX cop bad behavior
Post by: N7SMI on February 23, 2013, 08:46:49 PM
I laugh when someone answers them your 59 and they think they logged the DX. I wish more people did it.

Except that once that happens every thinks they're now working simplex and so you now have 5 more people calling on the DX frequency. This is a TERRIBLE practice.

The first rule of DXing is to LISTEN. I've found that most DX lately has been very good at telling folks they're working split. Most of the Africa DX today indicated so on EVERY exchange. If you can't hear "Up", how can you ever expect to hear your call sign correctly?

If someone is not listening or is inadvertently on the DX frequency, a simple and infrequent "UP" is usually sufficient.